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Source: (consider it) Thread: Peak Langton
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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Okay.

Given all that, why are you being such a dick, when it's pointed out to you you're being a dick?

As I've said, most AS people are still functioning as people. People sometimes don't realise they're being a dick until their dickishness is pointed out to them. Then they have a choice: either they carry on being a dick, or they modify their behaviour and stop being a dick.

You've gone around this "it's all the fault of the idea of a state church" so many times, we're not just bored by it, we already know your arguments. What you don't seem to understand is our arguments, which always leaves you standing in the middle of the metaphorical town square, shouting at us all, "but why don't you see! Wake up, sheeple!"

Which goes down well, every single bloody time, and you end up in Hell - again. If we had frequent flyer points, you'd be well on your way to Phuket, or similarly amusingly named town.

You're AS. We get it. It might be a reason for your behaviour, but it's not an excuse.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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Steve Langton,

So, Gene Roddenberry was unlikely to have known about Asperger's syndrome, stated his intent was to contrast emotion and intellect, therefore it is a despiction of Asperger's?
Dude, your problem may not be how many points you score on an autism test, but how few you score on a IQ test.

quote:
Context, mr cheesy, is extremely important to interpretation
You say this, but you do not use it.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16607 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Steve--

FWIW:

--Sometimes, the best thing to do is post, then step away from it, at least for a while.

--You can't *make* anyone share your beliefs. I think most of us get what you're talking about. We just disagree. And, rather than accepting that we disagree, you just pile more and more words on top of us. Ouch!

--Doing more and more "long and considered posts" has the opposite effect from what you probably want. You're overwhelming other Shipmates, and making them sick of your ideas and your posting style. Which, unfortunately, can make them sick of *you*.

--It's absolutely ok that you have Asperger's. And we get that you have it, and understand that it can affect people in various ways.

--What would make discussions with you better for *everyone concerned* is if you could adjust your posting style a bit. "Adapt, while remaining wholly yourself." (Madeleine L'Engle, "A Wind In The Door".)

--For example: maybe you could do shorter posts (with no lonnnng paragraphs), and not repeat the same points over and over again, across many posts? And maybe not do *quite* so many posts?

--We can understand what you say better if there's not quite so much of it. It's important that you heed that.

--You matter, Steve, just like everyone else on the Ship. If you can adapt just a bit, you'll probably have a better experience here.

FWIW, YMMV. But please think about it.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
Context, mr cheesy, is extremely important to interpretation. My comment there is not about what happens on this board, but about Alan's view of likely Muslim response. No, you're not here to assist me to "get the truth out" - that's neither what I said nor what I meant.

I see. So it isn't so much that you're using this website to "get the truth out" as you're using this website to explain that your purpose - elsewhere - is to get the truth out.

How delightfully meta. And also, more to the point, totally irrelevant to the post from Alan and the thread you were typing it on.

quote:
I am discussing the origins of Islamic extremism. Alan who is an Admin on the Ship has engaged in that discussion with me - you've evaded what ought to be a very simple question about what most people, as far as I can tell, agree is a historic fact about Muhammad, and you're very openly insulting me.
No.I.haven't

We can count all the thing you have evaded on that thread:

You refuse to accept that large numbers of Muslims do not believe what you believe about the Koran.

You refuse to accept that Islamic scholars do not accept your understanding, despite reading a book by one.

You refuse to engage with questions (when it became clear that the thread was always just about you and that you wouldn't stop replying to points that you assess as irrelevant and that you've admitted are ignorant about) about how exactly your Anabaptist state would work.

You evade questions about how you are making decisions about which roles an anabaptist should and shouldn't do in society. You've just stated them and assumed that is a discussion.

Evasion? How dare you. I've told you several times that I'm not in a position to make a statement about Muhammed and that it doesn't matter what I think anyway, because I'm not a Muslim. Plenty of Muslims manage to continue being Muslims without feeling the need to create an Islamic state.

quote:
I have a blog - feel free to come and comment; if you expect me to post your comments, rough arguing I can stand; sneering insults like you go in for I won't.
I'd rather gnaw my own leg off than read any more of your ill-informed, barely literate guff.

[ 28. September 2016, 09:32: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
--Doing more and more "long and considered posts" has the opposite effect from what you probably want. You're overwhelming other Shipmates, and making them sick of your ideas and your posting style. Which, unfortunately, can make them sick of *you*.

Absolutely this.

There's an abbreviation "TL;DR". It means "too long, didn't read".

Lengthy posts on internet message boards just do not work. Message boards are conversations. Conversations don't usually involve great big long monologues. As has already been pointed out, that's what blogs are for.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I'm confused---is this a hell thread, or a memoir?

It's vegetable porn. Like all porn, ultimately boring. Even if Stevie has asparagus.

--------------------
Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I'm confused---is this a hell thread, or a memoir?

It's vegetable porn. Like all porn, ultimately boring. Even if Stevie has asparagus.
Note too that smaller asparagus is best. Larger asparagus are tough and don't taste so good.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

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I only eat locally-grown farm-fresh asparagus, in season - it's amazing. The imported stuff is rubbish (not to mention the Food Miles involved).

My wife doesn't like asparagus, but she is a Civilised Being in other respects.

[ 28. September 2016, 17:19: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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Asparagus is an odd thing - once or twice I've had it and it tasted marvellous. The other times it was horrid. I don't even think it was related to the freshness, it is just an unpredictable vegetable.

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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This being Hell, and me being a Hellhost, means I can tell you to shove your asparagus where the sun doesn't shine. And yes, it does relate to a poo-filled trench, but it's attached to your body, not your garden.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Can we have the Asparagus diagnosis shoved up Stevie's langdon?

--------------------
Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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Perhaps if we shoved humour up your arse, it might come out of your mouth. Lord knows it is not happening any other way.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
This being Hell, and me being a Hellhost, means I can tell you to shove your asparagus where the sun doesn't shine. And yes, it does relate to a poo-filled trench, but it's attached to your body, not your garden.

Tell 'im, Doc! Tell 'im!

Also, asparagus makes your piss smell bad, so it's appropriate to take your asparagus piss elsewhere!

[ 29. September 2016, 01:46: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

--------------------
"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621

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Despicable internet bullies and baiters the lot of you.
ITTWACW. Pity it isn't.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Despicable internet bullies and baiters the lot of you.
ITTWACW. Pity it isn't.

This is Hell, fuckwit.

--------------------
God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Despicable internet bullies and baiters the lot of you.
ITTWACW. Pity it isn't.

You are an idiot. Treating Steve gently because he has Asperger's is tearing him as than than an adult. And most of us are not mocking that, only his poor argument construction and fixation on Constantine. None of that has anything to do with AS.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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...but, to the ones who *are* mocking his AS: That's wrong.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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... Well, color me stupid, I thought Doc was raving about an actual garden tangent.

Yeah, I take back my attaboy on grounds of personal stupidity. I don't want in on L D jokes.

[ 29. September 2016, 03:36: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

--------------------
"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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ISTM, Doc was mocking no prophet.
I'm not certain np, etc. was mocking SL's AS or just being an insensitive tool with his poor attempt at humour.

[ 29. September 2016, 03:48: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Whatever, I'm just gonna stand very far away from that whole line of-- whatever.

--------------------
"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
...but, to the ones who *are* mocking his AS: That's wrong.

I'm not mocking SL's AS. I'm telling him to STFU about it.

--------------------
God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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I don't think those are mutually exclusive, lB. And, considering that they substituted "asparagus" for "Asperger's", and went on and on about it, they *were* making fun of Steve's disability, they knew what they were doing, and they did it on purpose.

Except for anyone, like Kelly, who stumbled into it and didn't understand it.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I don't think those are mutually exclusive, lB.

AS might be part of the reason for a fixation, but it is not an excuse.
quote:

And, considering that they substituted "asparagus" for "Asperger's", and went on and on about it, they *were* making fun of Steve's disability, they knew what they were doing, and they did it on purpose.

Except for anyone, like Kelly, who stumbled into it and didn't understand it.

Fair enough. They are shitty people for doing so.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I don't think those are mutually exclusive, lB.

AS might be part of the reason for a fixation, but it is not an excuse.

Actually, I think we're talking past each other. I was referring to your comment that they might have been mocking Steve's AS, or making a clumsy attempt at humor. I don't think those are mutually exclusive.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17666 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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Apologies, GK.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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No problem, lB. [Smile]

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

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Me too. Though the tangent really - as so often - had developed a life of its own, unrelated to its original subject.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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Invoking special circumstances (such as a disability) in mitigation is not usually a good idea.

Invoking them as granting special superior insights is definitely not a good idea.

Invoking them as both of the above on different occasions is fully deserving of the attention of Hell denizens.

--------------------
One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Yeah, but that's no excuse for someone to comport themselves like they were the love child of Eric Cartman and Donald Trump.

--------------------
"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Eutychus--

It's never ok to make fun of someone's disabilty. Period.

If the person is being a jerk, then say that.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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Where's the evidence that anyone mocked his disability?

I see a lot of criticism of his use of disability as a justification of his behaviour. I can't see any evidence of mocking the actual disability unless you think the word "asparagus" is sufficient to indicate a general contempt for Asperger's.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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Thank you orfeo. Although sanity seems strangely out of place anywhere these days.

--------------------
One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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I think there are probably thousands of examples of single, isolated words that express contempt. In fact, I bet all of us could name a couple that have been aimed at us personally.

--------------------
"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I think there are probably thousands of examples of single, isolated words that express contempt. In fact, I bet all of us could name a couple that have been aimed at us personally.

Sure. My question is, is this one of them?

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Leans enough that direction for me to want to stay the hell away from it. I don't hate anyone enough to want to do stuff that makes me dislike myself.

--------------------
"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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We can only know if no prophet confesses guilt. If he maintains innocence, then we might believe, but we will not know.
It can appear either way right now. At best, it is an insensitive use of a word in a situation that could appear mocking.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
We can only know if no prophet confesses guilt. If he maintains innocence, then we might believe, but we will not know.
It can appear either way right now. At best, it is an insensitive use of a word in a situation that could appear mocking.

Fair enough. So, that's exactly one poster who made use of the term in a way that is insensitive before Jamat marched in to announce that we're ALL horrible internet bullies.

Not "they", Golden Key. The word is "he".

Everyone else was, if anything, mocking no prophet's choice of the word.

I find Jamat generally fairly pathetic, so I'm not particularly bothered by his judgement on the matter. It's only because other people piped up as well that I'm interested in the question.

[ 29. September 2016, 14:43: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18031 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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I think GK's " they" popped up because she thought I was in on it, at first. And part of my backpedaling is a direct result of me not liking the feeling that GK thought I was being an asshole.

And I know saying that could potentially subject me to all manner of eye rolling fluffy bunny Too PC comments, but whatever. It pays to check yourself.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

Posts: 35051 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Fair enough. So, that's exactly one poster who made use of the term in a way that is insensitive before Jamat marched in to announce that we're ALL horrible internet bullies.[/qb

Well, Baptist Trainfan jumped in as well, but it seems he was playing around with np's post and not attacking SL. I still believe Doc Tor was ridiculing np, but that is three people who might appear to be mocking SL.
I still think Jamat is being an idiot here, though.
[qb][/quote]
It's only because other people piped up as well that I'm interested in the question.
[/QUOTE]
It is an interesting question. What is mocking disability and what is treating the disabled person as an adult?
In this case, allowing the Asperger's as an excuse to be a douche misses the mark and disparages the Autistic community as less than.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Well, Baptist Trainfan jumped in as well, but it seems he was playing around with np's post and not attacking SL.

Which is indeed correct, but in retrospect I realise I was being somewhat unthinking.
Posts: 9231 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Which again leaves me thinking Doc was just trying to nip a dumbass foodie tangent in the bud, in which case I restore my attaboy.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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This. And I don't much like asparagus either, so the less I have to think about the wretched weed, the better.

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Forward the New Republic

Posts: 8703 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I'm not mocking SL's AS. I'm telling him to STFU about it.

This.

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

Posts: 10845 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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no prophet--

Disingenuous.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17666 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Kelly--

L
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I think GK's " they" popped up because she thought I was in on it, at first. And part of my backpedaling is a direct result of me not liking the feeling that GK thought I was being an asshole.

And I know saying that could potentially subject me to all manner of eye rolling fluffy bunny Too PC comments, but whatever. It pays to check yourself.

Actually, "they" referred to anyone who participated in the asparagus posts. From my reading, people had to know what was going on, because no prophet kept pointedly referring to Steve's Asperger's as "asparagus". And people replied.

If anyone questions that, go to pg. 2 of the thread, and search on "asparagus". Then do the same on this page (pg. 3).

However, Kelly, you said you didn't realize what was going on. I believe you, and I did state that as an out for anyone else who didn't realize.

FWIW. [Smile]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17666 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621

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Orfeo, thanks for the kind words. Fairly pathetic is high praise for a hell host. On the other matter I have an AS acquaintance that I am in a church band with. It was quickly evident that this person compulsively rose to any kind of bait, simply couldn't help it and over time I realised how tempting it was to wind him up and seriously unkind I was capable of being in jerking his levers for cheap laughs. My comment above does not exclude myself and to not say so after what I wrote above would be hypocritical.

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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

Posts: 2967 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Orfeo, thanks for the kind words. Fairly pathetic is high praise for a hell host.

I shall amend it to "fairly clueless".

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18031 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

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Jamat, there is a difference between deliberately winding someone up in a church band to get a rise out of them in an immediate social situation and someone coming onto a message board and responding to something that is obviously as stimulus to him, whatever the topic.

The participants on the Ship of Fools are not, for the most part, deliberately winding Steve Langton up. On many threads there are collective groans when he participates because that means the thread is now derailed (see some of the Dead Horses threads discussing aspects of homosexuality that have been derailed into Biblical interpretation when they started as something else entirely). It is not as if anyone has to respond to a thread immediately. Or keep responding to a thread. And that includes those on the ASC spectrum.

In this text based medium, responses can be considered, researched, pruned (I wish, oh, I wish) and generally mulled over before posting. They can even be reconsidered in editing and not posted. If the thread has moved on or the same points made while the shipmate is composing the post it can even be deleted within the first two minutes of edit time.

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

Posts: 13481 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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This is the thing.
1. People can have strong, visceral reactions to the behavior of people with communication challenges,

2. They often have just as little control over those responses as the person provoking them does with their behavior. ( and just as much.)


In other words, yes, there are good reasons to tell Steve to hop off the hobby horse. At the same time, if ( oh, for example) a Host has had to warn people multiple times for ad hominem comments, perhaps it would be a good idea to consider that Steve might not be the only one in tne world with triggery impulse control issues.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

Posts: 35051 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Kelly [Overused]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17666 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged



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