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Source: (consider it) Thread: Peak Langton
ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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There is also a Steve Langton statement bank which means he doesn't really need to bother. It is so utterly, tediously, souldestroyingly predictable where a thread will be dragged kicking and screaming that there becomes no point in saying anything.

The rest of us don't stand a chance. I'm sick of it.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

Posts: 2147 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Dude, it's not like Jesus posted on thread begging everyone to refute Steve's arguments for the sake of His street cred. I'm assuming people are investing in the time they take to argue with him because they get some sort of intellectual charge out of it.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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(Missed the edit window.)

One of my concerns about this: This isn't the first time a Shipmate has been insulted and harassed about disabilities and differences.

Off the top of my head, I can think of about half a dozen incidents, with a variety of targeted people, over the past several years. There were probably more.

That's mean, rude, unacceptable--and it shames the Ship, and any belief/ethical system a Shipmate might have. People not on the Ship are amazed that it happens.

It needs to stop.

(I'm not painting a halo on myself. I absolutely say stupid things. I try not to; and when I'm aware I've done it, I try to apologize.)

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18155 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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Excuse me, nobody is or was harassing anyone for a disability. Anyone with half-an-ounce of sense can see that there was plenty of opportunity for someone to "harass" Steve Langton for his aspergers long before anyone mentioned asparagus.

Anyone could have rubbished the idea that aspergers was a real condition, anyone could have attacked him for stereotypical traits related to the condition.

Notably, nobody did. Indeed, the main discussion about asperger stereotypes came about because Steve Langton introduced the idea that we all got our ideas about the condition from Star Trek.

Now, it might be the case that Steve Langton's inability to comprehend things beyond the superficial is related to aspergers - I have no idea. He says not and others say not, I'm happy to believe those who know more about it than me.

What I can say is that Steve Langton is being an arse. If that's due to his medical condition, that's very unfortunate. If it is due to him just being an arse then that's a bigger problem.

But attacking his behaviour and mocking the way he continues to bring a medical condition into a discussion (apparently simultaneously as an excuse and a reason why he is right and everyone else is wrong) by introducing a ridiculous and unrelated vegetable into it is not to mock aspergers any more than talking about shoving things up someone's backside is to mock someone with intestinal cancer.

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arse

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Dude, it's not like Jesus posted on thread begging everyone to refute Steve's arguments for the sake of His street cred. I'm assuming people are investing in the time they take to argue with him because they get some sort of intellectual charge out of it.

I remember once saying that I took part in convos on the SOF because it amused me to do so. Shitstorm city.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

Posts: 63202 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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I introduced the word asparagus because I thought it was as relevant as Aspergers and Star Trek.

The idea of triggering is inconsistent. Unless the Ship has moved on from "fucktard".

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
# 619

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Unless the Ship has moved on from "fucktard".

More'n you have obviously.
Posts: 17253 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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No, we gotta give him that one, and that is probably the kind of thing GK is talking about. The fact that she can state her case, in fact, without being instantly given a recitation of the Hell Board header or being invited to go piss off to All Saints is a sign that things have changed. Few years back she might have been told she simply didn't understand unrest and that she might be better off finding a different community.

People were really," You will pry my fucktard out of my cold dead hands" for a while. At least we've moved on to where people know they can call out that kind of thing in Hell. So, yeah, NP&etc, I think things have shifted.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Oh, and while I am at it, I also agree that the whole " Case Against Star Trek" gambit was a tedious, bloviating mess.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

Posts: 35057 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Ok. Thanks for the clarification. I will freely admit that past upsetting discussions about fucktard had me disregard normal etiquette when I posted this. I thought "what the hell" why can't I? I didn't know if we'd get to discussion of it, but glad we have. And glad to know that things have shifted.

In this context or any other context, my use of the word "asparagus" to indicate "Aspergers" has probably offended people with Aspergers or similar, may I express my regret and offer apologies to you. I expect Steve might have stopped reading this thread, and to Steve, may you know that I am sorry if I have offended you.

I am very grateful to see that the term "fucktard" is no more as well.

Posts: 11163 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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"no more unchallenged," at least. It hasn't been banned or anything.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047

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For the record, as someone privileged to have Asperger's, I though the pun somewhat amusing and wasn't offended by it.
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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Hm. It kinda put me off because it reminded me of people heckling Barclay on ST:TNG by calling him Broccoli. I had a thing about Barclay, so I would get all indignant on his behalf.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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So, maybe on of the strong reactions a person might have when dealing with a situation involving a communication difficulty is one of hyper- protectiveness. That's still no reason to keep quiet if you feel that way. So what if people don't like it? They are supposed to be uncomfortable in Hell.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

Posts: 35057 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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I appreciate your attention to this Kelly and the "challenged" clarification. Your Barclay affinity notwithstanding.

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11163 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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I'm glad it came up, too.

It's not just the Ship, too, it seemed like early Net communication went through this era where it was considered badass to go all Full Metal South Park. Like, everywhere. And the Ship was better than most places on the one hand, but on the other it is silly to think it was some magically protected fairyland where we were immune to this trend.

And in a sense, in the early Net years toughening up to that kind of rhetoric was necessary -- if you tried to protect yourself from it you would end up limiting your own interaction, and trying to police it would consume too much time better spent focusing on viable discussions.

The Internet world has evolved enough that people have learned the devastating impact of the unchallenged id ( eg: doxxing) and therefore people have gotten better at stepping up. There is also more of a collective history we can draw on to support stepping up.

[ 30. September 2016, 21:14: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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FFS. Can we devulcanise some chewtoys, do the needful and pick the bits out of our teeth?

This ship needs to find its rudder again.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

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Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
# 619

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
your illness makes you unable to detect it

My understanding is that autism is not an 'illness' but an innate neurological constellation, a temperament. You might as well say NPetc being a crotchety, humourless pedant is an illness. We all have our peculiarities: if we are self-aware enough to recognise them - as Stephen appears to be - then we can reasonably be expected to field criticism about them.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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Autism =\= crotchety.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
# 619

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I find this a problem. We have had - have yet - Shipmates who display, for example, such a lack of empathy and/or virulent hatred towards groups or individuals that they post statements that are morally despicable.

Some will proffer a diagnosis: some you feel ought to be diagnosed as an X or Y: some clearly have arrived at their present state by a process of self-belief/delusion.

At what point do you say they are not responsible? Ineducable? No amount of explanation or argument will change them?

I realise that I am proposing a hierarchy here, but I do think the capacity to learn - and to change - is a benchmark.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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My understanding ( admittedly limited) of engaging with people who are on the Spectrum is that very often a blunt criticism is more useful to them than a gently offered hint. I defer to the experience of those who actually deal with it, though.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Of course, they do have to make a decision to take feedback on board. Steve.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
My understanding ( admittedly limited) of engaging with people who are on the Spectrum is that very often a blunt criticism is more useful to them than a gently offered hint.

I think the issue most people have - as Eutychus says up thread - is that he trots it out as the explanation for specific behaviour (as well as claiming it gives him superior insight that we are mentally incapable of comprehending).
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
My understanding ( admittedly limited) of engaging with people who are on the Spectrum is that very often a blunt criticism is more useful to them than a gently offered hint. I defer to the experience of those who actually deal with it, though.

I don't know if I'm on the spectrum or not but my wife will vouch for my inability to take a hint. I thought had a lot todo with having a penis.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
My understanding ( admittedly limited) of engaging with people who are on the Spectrum is that very often a blunt criticism is more useful to them than a gently offered hint.

I think the issue most people have - as Eutychus says up thread - is that he trots it out as the explanation for specific behaviour (as well as claiming it gives him superior insight that we are mentally incapable of comprehending).
Oh, did I mention that he needed to take the criticism on board? Let me scroll up. Oh, by golly, I did! [Yipee]

My point was, those who think people with Aspergers need to be treated gently might be less useful to that person than someone who bluntly says, " You're getting obsessive again. Stop it."

Temple Grandin talks about an editor of hers that slammed a can of Aarid on her desk and barked, " This is deodorant. Use it." She said at the time that was exactly the way she needed to hear that.

Its all in the intent. As NP says( and I respect his decision to call himself out in that anecdote) some people are out to improve the course of a conversation, or help someone assimilate, some people are just out to provoke mockable behavior.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601

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Yes, blunt criticism is often more useful to an Aspie than 'hints'. This is because often 'hints' are also couched deliberately for social politeness in ambiguous and metaphorical terms which the Aspie may take more literally than intended and so not feel the full weight of the criticism.

In my experience when I'm concentrating on something I'm able to cope well with the non-literal within it - but may miss it in more peripheral things going on at the same time. It's because most AS things involve quite a bit of anxiety and its management.

by chris stiles;
quote:
I think the issue most people have - as Eutychus says up thread - is that he trots it out as the explanation for specific behaviour (as well as claiming it gives him superior insight that we are mentally incapable of comprehending).
Well yes, when it is the explanation for particular behaviour, why not? Experience tells me I'm better off being myself and warning people about it than trying too hard to not be myself, which often simply means I'm distracting myself and put my foot in an even bigger pile of 'it' than the 'it' I was trying to avoid!

And no, I'm not claiming; superior insight that (others) are mentally incapable of comprehending. I think you are well capable of comprehending. In this case I was simply protesting at some people's dubious practices of

1) Over and over responding to what I say not with a useful argument but just with a smug "There are other opinions/interpretations you know" - with more than a bit of an obvious implication that I was ignorant of there even being such other opinions.

In contrast to that I wanted to make the point that as a voracious and significantly hyperlexic reader I was in fact likely to be aware of lots and lots of 'other opinions' and was getting a bit fed up of this gratuitous assumption of my ignorance. Please note that said hyperlexia comes with problems you wouldn't want - but that's part of why I want to be a bit assertive about one of the few good sides of things for me.

2) Again, just in the interest of keeping brief as I can (and I know you may think me prolix at best{'prolix' = 'wordy' a word which would have had to be invented for Calvin if it hadn't already been invented for Paul!}), I leave lots of stuff out of what I say - only to find various people responding with, again, the assumption that I've left it out because I'm ignorant and don't even know it, whereas the real reason is usually because I think it's obvious and do you the courtesy of assuming you don't need to be told it. And I was getting fed up of this again both gratuitous assumption of my ignorance and the thoroughly nasty way some people express it. It would be nice if occasionally instead of telling me I'm "talking b*****ks" or "full of S**te" some of you could just ask me reasonably normally "Were you aware of...?" or "How does this fit in...?" Or even think through for yourself why I might be saying this odd-seeming thing if I do actually know the obvious....?

It is also a fact that Aspies can have this 'absent-minded professory' mode where we spot an anomaly and niggle at it till we come up with an unusual and better answer about whatever. It's erratic and it's rather the point of that 'absent-minded professory' phrase that it can also go spectacularly wrong at times. But it's really good when it works, and even when it goes wrong it can cast useful light on things. All I'm asking is don't dismiss what I say because it may be coming a bit out of left field or whatever - either help me work it out better or help me develop it into something you may find useful.

But please stop the kind of treatment I described above. It helps nobody and muddies the discussion.

And as I recently pointed out, I definitely NEVER do that 'ex cathedra' stuff - I'm on the exact opposite wing of the Christian spectrum.

Posts: 2149 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
And no, I'm not claiming; superior insight that (others) are mentally incapable of comprehending.

You said
quote:
I am a hyperlexic Aspie who has been reading voraciously from age 3 - I'm very aware of the basic idea that there are 'other opinions' in the world. I've read enough to be nearly drowning in 'other opinions'

(...) I make serious efforts, and with a fair share of the Aspie logic that Gene Roddenberry didn't quite get right in his portrayal of Spock, to examine 'other opinions' and try and sort out the facts and what is at least likely to be true.

The implication is that a) you are, in part due to your diagnosis, more widely read than anybody else here b) due to that same diagnosis, your powers of logic are superior to the norm.

This quote is representative of your behaviour, not an outlier.

That you make a claim to be different is one thing (although plenty of us here are significantly "different" in one way or another and simply don't make a song and dance about it - something you did within your first dozen or so posts on this forum).

To simultaneously invoke that difference as something requiring indulgence, and people accommodating to you instead of the other way around, and suggest it gives you the edge over lesser mortals, is what irks me.
quote:
But please stop the kind of treatment I described above. It helps nobody and muddies the discussion.
The best means of achieving this is for you to shut up about your exceptionalness whether invoked as an excuse or as grounds for you being right.

quote:
And as I recently pointed out, I definitely NEVER do that 'ex cathedra' stuff - I'm on the exact opposite wing of the Christian spectrum.
This is not about churchmanship but about positioning. In this case, your positioning yourself as being above contradiction.

When you posted
quote:
The idea that the religion can be immune from criticism in such a situation is simply intolerable. End of!!
the implication is that you have the definitive word on the subject and get to dictate the terms of the conversation.

The same goes for this
quote:
Read me more carefully, please.
You wouldn't accept that kind of tone from anyone else; why use it yourself?

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17291 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601

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by Eutychus;
quote:

The implication is that a) you are, in part due to your diagnosis, more widely read than anybody else here b) due to that same diagnosis, your powers of logic are superior to the norm.

No, the implication is that I am more widely read than is being pretended by some critics. That is, they're posting on a somewhat malicious assumption that I don't know something extremely obvious, and I'm pointing out that I do know it.

If the norm is people who think that merely to say "There are other opinions you know" is an adequate response to serious issues, then I guess yes - and rather evidently. As I said above about the hyperlexia, you wouldn't want the downside....

Posts: 2149 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013  |  IP: Logged
Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601

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by Eutychus;
quote:
quote:
The idea that the religion can be immune from criticism in such a situation is simply intolerable. End of!!
the implication is that you have the definitive word on the subject and get to dictate the terms of the conversation.
Decidedly NO! In relation to the original statement I was commenting on, I was asserting the normal standards of debate. Or do you really think yourself it is tolerable that the other party there should himself deny the option of criticism on the grounds he did?? If anything in the original exchange the other party was very much giving the implication of "hav(ing) the definitive word on the subject and get(ting) to dictate the terms of the conversation". Go check it out - and some of the earlier occasions he's not only used that dubious argument but added pretty serious abuse in Purg threads.

AS for "Read me more carefully please", I would accept it actually. And I'd go back and read more carefully. I've tried just about everything else with that person over many threads before resorting to that bluntness which is still polite compared to some things he's said about me.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
AS for "Read me more carefully please", I would accept it actually. And I'd go back and read more carefully.

In the end that doesn't matter. You might accept someone saying "Go fuck yourself" but that doesn't mean saying it is proper, or give you the excuse to say it, or prove it's not abusive. What you would accept, in other words, is not a fair barometer of what offends others, or what offends the ship's rules or general tenor.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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"Read me more carefully please" positions oneself in a position of superiority with respect to the reader. It assumes the problem is with the reader and not the writer.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
"Read me more carefully please" positions oneself in a position of superiority with respect to the reader. It assumes the problem is with the reader and not the writer.

It also expects the reader to make of the post whatever the poster now wants made of it, which might have changed since it was posted. That is arrogant and potentially dishonest.

If the meaning isn't crystal clear, it is for the author to clarify.

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Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
"Read me more carefully please" positions oneself in a position of superiority with respect to the reader. It assumes the problem is with the reader and not the writer.

Exactly.

Steve—if you are constantly getting the same reactions to your posts from a wide variety of readers, you should consider the possibility that means (1) your posts are not as clear as you think they are, and (2) the way you say things is getting in the way of what you're trying to say.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Soror Magna
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Oh, and while I am at it, I also agree that the whole " Case Against Star Trek" gambit was a tedious, bloviating mess.

Fuck, yeah. Spock is obviously not an Aspie, he's a Vulcan. If anything, Spock and the Vulcan ethos demonstrate the use of cognitive behavioural therapy to avoid emotional reasoning. [Big Grin]

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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I'm telling ya, Barclay's the Aspie.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
"Read me more carefully please" positions oneself in a position of superiority with respect to the reader. It assumes the problem is with the reader and not the writer.

Exactly.

Steve—if you are constantly getting the same reactions to your posts from a wide variety of readers, you should consider the possibility that means (1) your posts are not as clear as you think they are, and (2) the way you say things is getting in the way of what you're trying to say.

This.

Steve, one of the points I was making with the Grandin anecdote was that she was grateful for her editor's feedback, and that she actually did begin using deodorant. In that light, now that you've informed us of all the adjustments we could make on your behalf, what adjustments are you prepared to make when others give you direct feedback that your mode of discourse is problematic?

Because, "Suck it up and deal with me" is great in Hell, but that just won't cut it in Purg. People will get extremely frustrated if they feel the respect is not a two way street.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I'm telling ya, Barclay's the Aspie.

I thought he had anxiety.

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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Palimpsest
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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Fuck, yeah. Spock is obviously not an Aspie, he's a Vulcan. If anything, Spock and the Vulcan ethos demonstrate the use of cognitive behavioural therapy to avoid emotional reasoning. [Big Grin]

Funny, I thought he was Jewish. [Smile]
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Steve Langton
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Kelly;
I do get it, I'm trying (I know, before anyone else says it, "very trying"!).

I've noticed that part of the problem may be dealt with by what appears to be recognition that it's not really 'on' to post stuff to deliberately 'twit' or tease/provoke someone known to have AS; the trouble being that, especially when concentrating on a detailed argument, Aspies may not be too well equipped to recognise let alone deal appropriately with such teasing. It can be really frustrating!! The irony is that there is in a sense misplaced 'respect' by taking seriously others who, by the teasing, don't really deserve it.

A post to clarify some other points will appear shortly after taking quite a while to think about it. Thanks for your forbearance.
SL

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Well, yeah, back on page 2 I said I really wasn't impressed with people who used their annoyance as an excuse to " forget" C3 or high- five each other over stupid personal shots. And several people have said it's not on to lure someone with provocative remarks. I sensed that the conversation was becoming lopsided, though.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
I've noticed that part of the problem may be dealt with by what appears to be recognition that it's not really 'on' to post stuff to deliberately 'twit' or tease/provoke someone known to have AS; the trouble being that, especially when concentrating on a detailed argument, Aspies may not be too well equipped to recognise let alone deal appropriately with such teasing.

Just as it's not really "on" to trot out your diagnoses where they are not relevant. The only place on the ship where they would be relevant would be a thread where people are discussing their diagnoses. Not a thread about a substantive theological, political, etc. topic.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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I'm beginning to think all y'all deserve each other. Wow, so this is what the Hellhosts have been talking about all this time.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
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Like I said. So glad I don't have to read all this shit anymore. This fuckjiggery is what drove me to madness. Now I can just skim for wit, or for Really Painful Boneheaded Examples of Pure Unrefined Asshattery in the Face of Overwhelming Instruction and Frustration That I Enjoy Because I'm a Sicko, That's Why I'm in "Grad School" or Something, Innit (RPBEPUAFOIFTIEBISTWIGSSI)?

So not much of the former, lots of the latter. It's okay. I'm a sicko. Keep it comin'. Gimmiemore, Stevie. Gimmiemore.

[ 04. October 2016, 03:57: Message edited by: Ariston ]

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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.

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Steve Langton
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What I really meant;

About that 'read me more carefully' thing....

That was, of course, directed at mr cheesy and not everybody in general. For months now he has been assiduously implying that because I regard it as at least a root and possibly the major root of Islamic extremism that Islam was set up by Muhammad in his lifetime as an 'Islamic state', I'm somehow saying that this means constant war by Muslims turned psychopathic by their religion - or something on those lines. And to counter my supposed belief of that, he keeps pointing to the long periods of stability and peace in Muslim countries and the peaceableness of most Muslims most of the time, and he thoroughly sneers at my supposed stupidity or has been even really crudely insulting in what I'm fairly sure is not acceptable Purgatorial language. Far rougher than anything I've treated him to....

And of course, what he's so insistent that I believe and am saying is evidently not true and I would indeed be really stupid IF that were my belief. And I have spent quite a bit of time (more politely than I think he deserves) pointing out to him that he is misunderstanding and misrepresenting me – the blunt 'read me more carefully' comment was essentially an end of the tether response to considerable nastiness on his part over a long period. And under the circumstances, I still feel it justified. All he needed to do was to not make a gratuitous assumption of my stupidity and ask for (or pay attention when I did in fact offer) clarification.

What I was actually saying, for the benefit of those following this thread, and I'll post a version of it back on the Islamic extremism thread for discussion there, is roughly this;

As a guy called Weber said (BTW, thanks Croesos for putting me on to him), it is at least a major point about a state – any state – that it is, or at least tries to be, the local 'monopoly of force'. This does not mean that it is never at peace and is always treating people solely in a coercive manner. It does mean that in the last resort it relies on the use of force or the threat thereof to attain its ends. And correspondingly, apart from the options of peaceably winning a majority in a democratic state, or the choice of Gandhian passive resistance/peaceable civil disobedience against a tyrannical state, most attempts to coerce the state itself will involve the use (or threat) of force – war, rebellion, terrorism.

If you add the idea of a state religion to that, with the religion either as the state's totalitarian philosophy or at least having a discriminatory privilege in the state over other religions/philosophies , you 'up the ante' considerably. You add lots of religious reasons to the ordinary reasons for having a war or rebellion, wars whose primary reasons are secular may be exacerbated by the “God on our side/Gott mit Uns” factor, even sensible surrender may be harder than without the religious state motivation (as in the famous Ulster cry of 'No Surrender'). And when you're already on the warfare side of the line, there are various circumstances which can all too easily lead to violent extremism; this was seen in 'Christendom', and elsewhere. Even Buddhism can get violent when it is a state religion....


There seems to be a pretty solid consensus, including among Muslims, that Muhammad DID set up, in Mecca, an Islamic state, and fought wars both to do that and defend it. And I've yet to see any evidence otherwise, only attempts to justify it. So far, and I admit I haven't finished it yet, a book mr cheesy referred me to still seems to agree on the basic historic fact there. And admits, in effect, that the modern extremists rely on that as their example and justification. As I say, I've not finished the book yet, maybe it's going to surprise me.

Additionally to three more points I recently made about what's needed for reasonable debate to happen at all,
quote:
I very strongly believe that if a religion which is trying to claim my allegiance has come over the years to take several different forms not all of which can be true, then as a potential convert I have surely EVERY RIGHT to examine the different forms and assess as best I can both which is the most authentic form of that religion, and then whether that is also a credible world view that I can give my faith to.
(I've used 'Quote' there just as a format to emphasise the statement)

I'll save further exposition for the Islamic extremism thread; but I am not saying, and never have said, the nonsense mr cheesy has been attributing to me – and why he read me that way is a bit puzzling.... All I said was what is above – that the ultimate root of Islamic extremism is in the dynamics of a religious state and having set up such a state by warfare; as opposed to the 'free church' view in Christianity which asserts you don't set up a religious state and therefore don't fight wars, and if persecuted accept martyrdom rather than fight back in a physical warfare sense.

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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Maybe you should read your own damn posts:

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
I agree with the first part of your sentence - as you should have read in my earlier posts, I recognise that Muhammad would probably be worried by some aspects of IS. But the general idea of 'state Islam' and where it originates in Muhammad's teaching is definitely relevant to IS and how we deal with it.

Our local churches are currently dealing with many refugees from various Islamic states - it's a struggle these days to find many such states that would satisfy you as being democratic etc. And the few you might just about approve seem currently to be under attack from those who want something more like Muhammad's own version.


Rephrasing the end of your sentence slightly to "nor does it mean that all Muslims believe in Islam being a state and ultimately global religion with the world being run as Muhammad ran Mecca" I'd have to say that I don't see how they'd disbelieve that and still claim to be following Muhammad's teaching - I think they'd find a lot of Muslims considering them heretical and indeed to be persecuted as such.

Muhammad taught and practised Islam as a state religion - who am I to question his teaching about the nature of his own religion - though I'm certainly prepared to question whether that religion is actually the truth about our world.



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arse

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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
...most attempts to coerce the state itself will involve the use (or threat) of force – war, rebellion, terrorism.

Let's cut the rest of the crap. Steve, have you ever paid the least bit of attention to how states are actually run? How people actually try to change them?

You see, there are these people called "lobbyists." They do a lot of talking, sometimes throw lavish receptions, and try to get politicians to do something. That's how the state gets coerced.

Or maybe there are these people called "cranks." You'd be a great one. They're folks with a single issue on their mind who bother and harass the folks with the titles until the FWtT's give in out of sheer frustration. Not that the cranks stop then; that just encourages them. I should know. I've been one.

Or maybe, just maybe, there is this other kind of people we call "legislators." Now, not all of them breathe fire, foam at the mouth, and want to impose the state church on everyone. Some of them are able to change the state itself with nothing more than a pencil, some gumption, and the wit to notice that anything they write on that yellow legal pad at the back of the statehouse is going to become law—and a way to protect trans people from discrimination.

No pitchforks. No riots. No threats. Just talking, gumption, and copious amounts of alcohol.

[ 04. October 2016, 12:38: Message edited by: Ariston ]

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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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Hostly furry hat on

Steve
quote:
I'll save further exposition for the Islamic extremism thread
Damn right you will. Any more of that crap and you'll owe me for a new monitor.

Hostly furry hat off

DT
HH


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Forward the New Republic

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Steve Langton
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# 17601

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Ariston;
My brief summary comment about

quote:
apart from the options of peaceably winning a majority in a democratic state
basically includes the other ideas/processes that go with a democratic state. Processes of which I am well aware. It's still the fact that where that option doesn't exist in the first place, or when some minority in a democracy isn't getting what it wants quickly enough, more violent means may be resorted to.

Just because I don't waste the Ship's space spelling out lots of obvious things that I know and kindly assume you can work out too doesn't mean you should pretend to think I'm ignorant and indulge yourself in playground bullying.

mr cheesy;
Yes, I wrote that stuff you quoted up there; it is essentially just a paraphrase of my previous post here, and means the same thing. I refer to my previous answer.....

Doc Tor;
I agree and want to get back to the other thread.

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:

mr cheesy;
Yes, I wrote that stuff you quoted up there; it is essentially just a paraphrase of my previous post here, and means the same thing. I refer to my previous answer.....

How can it possibly mean the same thing? You keep going on about the perils of state religion, you keep insisting that "true" Islam believers would follow the model of Muhammed and wish to set up states - and now you are saying that the state and therefore "true Muslims" does mean that in the last resort it relies on the use of force or the threat thereof to attain its ends.

How can you then possibly suggest that you didn't somehow mean that true Islam leads to "constant war by Muslims turned psychopathic by their religion"?

You can't possibly have it both ways, however "carefully" one tries to read the scree you mistakenly think is somehow intelligent comment.

[ 04. October 2016, 14:04: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

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arse

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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By the way, this is still bollocks however many times you wriggle around and however many times you repeat it. There are many Muslims who have no interest in creating or living in a religious state.

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arse

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