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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Poppies and neo-Nazi Appropriation
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Your attitude also exactly mirrors that of Brexiters in that it seems to think the UK is frozen in the 1950s or earlier.
Of course one feature of the 1950s and earlier (if nostalgia about that period is to be believed) is that there existed more formal, less slovenly forms of dress; I'm sure it would have appeared quite odd that one might transfer one's poppy from a suit to games kit. I can't help but think that the belief that wearing a poppy while playing sport is somehow de rigeur is a sign of declining sartorial standards.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
And your point is?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
If we were frozen in the 1950s I suspect this wouldn't be an issue. (I stand to be corrected, but poppies on sports kit seems to be a recent thing.)
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
It wouldn't be an issue because the world was a different place then.
You seem to be keen on perpetuating the 1950s by arguing that 2010s international soccer fixtures are in fact (or should be) carried out under some sort of moral licensing agreement dictated by Britannia™ whereby Britannia™ benevolently allows the foreigners to imagine they have independent international bodies to run a proprietary Britannia™ item (soccer) and can have their own rules - provided always that the actual owner (Britannia™) can flout these rules to reassert its cultural hegemony at any time it chooses to, with no consequences and certainly in no way setting a precedent for other licensee nations to do the same.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
You seem to be keen on perpetuating the 1950s by arguing that 2010s international soccer fixtures are in fact (or should be) carried out under some sort of moral licensing agreement dictated by Britannia™ whereby Britannia™ benevolently allows the foreigners to imagine they have independent international bodies to run a proprietary Britannia™ item (soccer) and can have their own rules - provided always that the actual owner (Britannia™) can flout these rules to reassert its cultural hegemony at any time it chooses to, with no consequences and certainly in no way setting a precedent for other licensee nations to do the same.
No. I just want FIFA to be reasonable. Not sure how much we'd have to bung them for that, though.
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Perhaps the question is more of consistency in enforcing the rules. FIFA ban political, religious and personal statements on kit - in this case it's a personal statement (the poppies are neither religious nor political, but as RBL and Poppyscotland admit the decision to wear a poppy is personal). I'm sure I've seen plenty of other occasions when footballers make personal statements on their kit - most commonly a black armband when someone has died. What is the fundamental difference between wearing a sign of respect for a former team mate, fans killed in an accident, or millions killed in war?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
The third of those counts, in the prevailing climate, as political, as opposed to the other two.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
The RBL are explicit that it's about one set of war dead, not a general remembrance. So the poppy is already political even by the lights of the RBL. It is also politicsl when eorj by those of us who do so for a wider reason than the RBL would be happy with. The poppy is political whichever eay you analyse it.
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Every country in the world commemorates those who have been killed or injured in war. The date they choose to do so varies, though 11th November is one of the most common (especially for those nations involved in WWI). The particular way they do so varies, though again poppies are a common feature in many countries (especially the Commonwealth). I struggle to see how an act of remembrance, something that at sometime or another during the year is practically universal, is political - regardless of the current climate. Though I have previously said that the poppy is a particular issue where poppies are associated with opiates rather than Flanders Field.
On the other hand, I've never seen a FIFA objection to flags and other similar national symbols (and hence by definition political) on shirts.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
The RBL are explicit that it's about one set of war dead, not a general remembrance. So the poppy is already political even by the lights of the RBL.
Apart from the fact that poppy sales raise funds for veterans (and their families, and the families of those who died) in the nations they are sold in, in what way is the poppy worn in memory of a particular set of war dead? I've certainly never heard anyone suggest that the poppy I buy is only in remembrance of Scottish war dead - and, I personally wear a poppy on Remembrance Sunday in memory of all war dead, civil and military, of all nations.
Maybe RBL is significantly more focussed on English war dead, but it's been 20 years since I've had contact with the RBL (which was, admittedly, only with people selling poppies).
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
What the Royal British Legion says about this year's poppy appeal:
quote:
This year, The Royal British Legion is asking the nation to Rethink Remembrance by recognising the sacrifices made not just by the Armed Forces of the past, but by today’s generation too.
For many people, Remembrance is associated with the fallen of the First and Second World Wars. While we will always remember them, the Legion wants to raise awareness of a new generation of veterans and Service personnel that need our support.
Rethink Remembrance this Poppy Appeal.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
in what way is the poppy worn in memory of a particular set of war dead?
The RBL, which as far as I can see has a strictly enforced monopoly on remembrance poppies in the UK, explicitly states quote:
The Legion advocates a specific type of Remembrance connected to the British Armed Forces, those who were killed, those who fought with them and alongside them.
Wikipedia says: quote:
they are most common in the UK and Canada, and are used to commemorate their servicemen and women killed in all conflicts since 1914...(the) "Poppy Appeal" ... supports all current and former British military personnel.
It also notes the controversial nature of poppy-wearing in Northern Ireland.
How would you see things if it were an England-Northern Ireland international fixture?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Your attitude also exactly mirrors that of Brexiters in that it seems to think the UK is frozen in the 1950s or earlier.
Of course one feature of the 1950s and earlier (if nostalgia about that period is to be believed) is that there existed more formal, less slovenly forms of dress; I'm sure it would have appeared quite odd that one might transfer one's poppy from a suit to games kit. I can't help but think that the belief that wearing a poppy while playing sport is somehow de rigeur is a sign of declining sartorial standards.
You're such a stuffy old fart, aren't you, Anglican't? You put me in mind of the Major in Faulty Towers.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
in what way is the poppy worn in memory of a particular set of war dead?
The RBL, which as far as I can see has a strictly enforced monopoly on remembrance poppies in the UK, explicitly states quote:
The Legion advocates a specific type of Remembrance connected to the British Armed Forces, those who were killed, those who fought with them and alongside them.
Not quite a monopoly, Poppyscotland doesn't appear to have any corresponding statement that poppies relate only to remembrance of Scottish (or British) armed forces. Though, funds raised do support armed forces, and their families, in Scotland.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Not quite a monopoly, Poppyscotland doesn't appear to have any corresponding statement that poppies relate only to remembrance of Scottish (or British) armed forces.
quote:
Poppyscotland provides life-changing support to our Armed Forces community (...) The Scottish Poppy Appeal raises over £2 million each year. This, combined with our other year-round fundraising, enables us to provide tailored support and funding to thousands of ex-Servicemen and women (...)
and most tellingly of all quote:
In June 2011 Poppyscotland merged with our sister charity The Royal British Legion (TRBL), which operates in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, to form the largest charity group supporting the Armed Forces community across the whole of the UK
Source.
I guess the only reason they quote:
continue to operate as a distinct charity within the TRBL group of charities
is because charity law, and the charity register, are distinct in Scotland as compared to England.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
The question wasn't "what does money raised selling poppies support?" but "what does wearing a poppy mean?". Those are different questions, ISTM. That the money raised goes to supporting men and women in the armed services and their families in the countries the poppies are sold in doesn't mean that the reason for wearing a poppy is to support current service people. Poppies are worn to remember those who have died (and, hence, by definition not to support current troops).
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I don't think there can be any question that the poppy symbol in the UK is understood, and meant to be understood by those that attempt to keep a monopoly on it, as a symbol relating to any other personnel than those of the British armed forces, and this is made abundantly clear by their websites.
More broadly, the poppy as a remembrance symbol has only ever been recognised as such (according to the Wikipedia page) by the perceived victors in the two World Wars.
The symbolic value it has acquired in the UK is pretty much unique to UK culture.
None of that makes poppies, or wearing one, inherently wrong.
I do however fully share the reservations of those who feel it's become all but mandatory to wear one in the UK, and with regard to the FIFA spat, I maintain that it's entirely out of place in an international football fixture with rules on inappropriate displays.
The UK's refusal to comply with FIFA's strict application of its rules in this respect looks arrogant and jingoistic to outsiders, and embodies an unfortunate sense of the UK being entitled to break the rules when it suits by virtue of some sense of historic superiority (see Anglican't's posts above for exmaples).
From this side of the Channel, this resonates very unfortunately, and very loudly, with the various positions taken as the Brexit fiasco is unfolding.
If this stubbornness somehow improves the UK's own sense of self-identity (which apparently means leaving how poppies go down in Northern Ireland to one side) it does so at the expense of international openness - something I'd have thought you of all people, Alan, as an ardent Remainer, would be in favour of.
There are places to commemmorate a country's fallen in its wars and to do so in ways that make sense nationally. An international soccer fixture is not one of them.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Example of a more appropriate national commemoration which, incidentally, makes the symbolism of the poppy in the British psyche incontrovertibly clear, emphasis mine: quote:
Blood Swept Lands and Seas of Red was a work of installation art placed in the moat of the Tower of London, England, between July and November 2014, commemorating the centenary of the outbreak of World War I. It consisted of 888,246 ceramic red poppies, each intended to represent one British or Colonial serviceman killed in the War.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
This year Remembrance Day coincides with the centenary of the Battle of the Somme. Having had a grandfather of whom family history recounts was deafened by the big guns in that battle* it has personal significance.
The RBL insistence that we remember all injured service men means we are being asked to remember veterans and widows from the Gulf Wars, which have a whole lot of other baggage - specifically an alcoholic self-immmolating neighbour† who fought in the First Gulf War and whose son died in the Second Gulf War. The focus of the RBL feels a lot too little too late.
* He survived and lived into his 80s, very deaf and difficult to hold a conversation with having lacked ear drums since WW1. But having taught WW1 poetry over the last few years I now wonder how a member of the BEF ended up on the Somme and keep meaning to go to Kew Public Record Office to read his military record. I also worked out he was 19 when WW1 started.
† That neighbour died in a house fire, caused by a dropped cigarette or match. A party in the street set off his PTSD and a drinking bout, as usually happened, this time he didn't survive.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
It matters not how large are the records,
Documenting the sufferings of war,
For they could go thrice around the World,
Yet still we,ll vote for more.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I've just returned from a trip to our local town centre shopping precinct, and I took the opportunity to see how many people were wearing poppies. Interestingly, the majority were not wearing them (though it's a cold and north-windy day, so the poppies might have been hidden by an extra layer or two of clothing!).
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
This year Remembrance Day coincides with the centenary of the Battle of the Somme.
And the RBL are selling a pin that shows both the poppy and le bleuet. I'm wearing one.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
The implication, as viewed from here outside the UK at least, is that the rest of the world should simply understand British cultural practice and make room for it, and is being uppity and rude if it doesn't, whereas any foreign cultural practice can jolly well abide by the rules.
You mean like the foreign cultural practice of women covering their hair, which FIFA has recently permitted? Allowing people to play football in turbans and hijabs is the right thing to do (and there's at least as much political content in the wearing of a hijab as in the wearing of a poppy.) So why not a poppy?
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
So why not a poppy?
Are you suggesting that the poppy is some sort of religious symbol that believers in, oh I don't know, "nationalism", are obligated to wear by their holy scriptures?
Or are you talking bollocks?
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
The implication, as viewed from here outside the UK at least, is that the rest of the world should simply understand British cultural practice and make room for it, and is being uppity and rude if it doesn't, whereas any foreign cultural practice can jolly well abide by the rules.
You mean like the foreign cultural practice of women covering their hair, which FIFA has recently permitted? Allowing people to play football in turbans and hijabs is the right thing to do (and there's at least as much political content in the wearing of a hijab as in the wearing of a poppy.) So why not a poppy?
They don't stop people wearing a cross either
But none of those are pinned to their shirts
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
I've just returned from a trip to our local town centre shopping precinct, and I took the opportunity to see how many people were wearing poppies. Interestingly, the majority were not wearing them (though it's a cold and north-windy day, so the poppies might have been hidden by an extra layer or two of clothing!).
IJ
I was on welcome duty at church on Sunday and poppies were few and far between. Next Sunday, Remembrance Sunday, everyone will wear one, but I'm not seeing much evidence of them yet.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
So why not a poppy?
Are you suggesting that the poppy is some sort of religious symbol that believers in, oh I don't know, "nationalism", are obligated to wear by their holy scriptures?
I assume the reference is to the FIFA rules banning items that are religious, political or personal. So, logically, if someone wears a hijab for religious or personal reasons that would be banned on the same basis as someone wearing a poppy for political or personal reasons. As far as I can see since the rules apply to shirts, shorts, boots, even underwear (at least if there's any chance of that being seen) then they should also apply to headwear.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
I've just returned from a trip to our local town centre shopping precinct, and I took the opportunity to see how many people were wearing poppies. Interestingly, the majority were not wearing them (though it's a cold and north-windy day, so the poppies might have been hidden by an extra layer or two of clothing!).
IJ
I was on welcome duty at church on Sunday and poppies were few and far between. Next Sunday, Remembrance Sunday, everyone will wear one, but I'm not seeing much evidence of them yet.
A few members had ceramic poppy pins on Sunday, but no paper ones on display. If not for this thread I probably wouldn't have noticed. But, by previous years experience (noting I've not been here the last two years) the general wearing off poppies by more than a few percent of the population* only occurs on Remembrance Sunday and Remembrance Day.
* excluding anyone who happens to be on TV at any time since Halloween
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
]I assume the reference is to the FIFA rules banning items that are religious, political or personal.
They ban religious symbols as defined by: quote:
any symbol, including archetypes or artwork, used by a religion or used to represent a religion or religious disposition, not including symbols forming part of a National Flag or the Official Member Association Emblem of the respective country of a Member Association.
You could, perhaps, argue that a headscarf or a turban is 'a symbol used to represent a religious disposition', but groups other than Muslims culturally wear headscarves, and all the pictures of Sikh footballers seem to be wearing a patka, not the full turban (quite what they do about the other 4 Ks is a matter left for the reader).
But FIFA, in a rare display of common sense, appear to have realised that their rules were effectively banning whole religious and racial groups from ever playing affiliated football, whereas the 'poppy ban' doesn't prevent any British footballer from taking the pitch. So, not analogous at all.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
So why not a poppy?
Are you suggesting that the poppy is some sort of religious symbol that believers in, oh I don't know, "nationalism", are obligated to wear by their holy scriptures?
I assume the reference is to the FIFA rules banning items that are religious, political or personal. So, logically, if someone wears a hijab for religious or personal reasons that would be banned on the same basis as someone wearing a poppy for political or personal reasons. As far as I can see since the rules apply to shirts, shorts, boots, even underwear (at least if there's any chance of that being seen) then they should also apply to headwear.
The difference is that for Sikhs and for at least some Muslim women the Turban or the Niqab is regarded as mandatory and that if you asked them to choose between playing football and following the dictates of their religion, they would be obliged, in conscience to follow the dictates of their religion. But absolutely nobody, not even Nigel Farage, believes that anybody is obliged in conscience to wear a poppy on their football kit. Now, I agree with you, that the poppy is relatively innocuous. But, if you allow the poppy, on what grounds do you stop, say, the government of Russia putting the insignia of the Great Patriotic War on their kit. And how, exactly, does that work when a Russian team, with the insignia of The Great Patriotic War run out of the tunnel for a qualifier against, say, Lithuania in Lithuania where memories of the Red Army's activities during the Second World War are not, to be fair, all good ones. And if the Russians get to wear their insignia for The Great Patriotic War then, surely, the Lithuanians get to wear their insignia of the Baltic SS Divisions and their gallant, if doomed, campaign to keep the Bolshevik hordes out of the Lithuanian Motherland. And so on, and so forth.
It's a football match. Can we not just take the reverence of the players for the gallant dead of the two world wars as a given and get on with the bloody football?
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
But absolutely nobody, not even Nigel Farage, believes that anybody is obliged in conscience to wear a poppy on their football kit.
I'm not convinced that Farage, or some similar UKIP loony, hasn't tried to turn the poppy into a political statement. Anyone who has as much contempt for democracy and British society as Farage et.al. is capable of practically anything. But, then again, I don't think we should be judging a symbol by what a few knobheads say.
quote:
Now, I agree with you, that the poppy is relatively innocuous. But, if you allow the poppy, on what grounds do you stop, say, the government of Russia putting the insignia of the Great Patriotic War on their kit.
Well, one could say that a symbol worn in remembrance of all dead, in all wars, with a committment to work towards ending war is non-political in the way that a symbol commemorating the soldiers of one side who fought in a specific war isn't.
But that does, I admit, bring us back to the OP and those who wish to appropriate the poppy as a symbol of something different from what it is. By trying to turn the poppy political they have created the problem for British football teams (and, presumably other sports if their international bodies have similar rules).
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Well, one could say that a symbol worn in remembrance of all dead, in all wars, with a committment to work towards ending war is non-political in the way that a symbol commemorating the soldiers of one side who fought in a specific war isn't.
Perhaps, but if there's one thing this thread incontrovertibly shows, it's that the British poppy isn't it (even if that's what's in your mind in wearing it).
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
We have this thread because it's because it's become something other than that (if I'm following Karl's rant accurately).
The poppy ceases to be what it should be when:
- people are called "unpatriotic" for not wearing it
- when people wear them to "support our troops"
- when what should be solemn events where poppy wreaths are laid at memorials become jingoistic celebrations of military
- etc, etc, etc
That's even before we get to the nazi scum in Britain First or EDL using the poppy.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Can you reasonably get hold of a poppy that doesn't explicitly commemorate British and Colonial forces' war dead?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
It's a bit of red paper and black plastic (with a bit of green paper to make a leaf if you're south of the border). It doesn't explicitely mean anything. The meaning is what our culture applies to it.
But, they aren't sold saying "support our troops" or any of the other stuff - though it appears the RBL has been a bit lax on that front. The funds raised go to support military personel and families in the UK, but I don't see that as directly related to what the poppy symbolises - any more than Tesco getting money for a loaf of bread changes the symbolism of that bread being broken at Communion.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
The bits of the relevant websites quoted here say otherwise.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I'm getting a bit worried by all the non-paper poppies proliferating around. If someone buys a jewellery poppy, money goes to the jewellery manufacturers as well as the appeal, and it only goes once. You'd have to be pretty mean and efficient at storing to make a paper poppy last several years, but the pins can come back year after year.
Whatever the wearer intends them to mean.
[ 07. November 2016, 19:16: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
There is a difference between a religious symbol and a political symbol - namely that a particular religious dress rarely/never suggests an affinity with a political or nationalistic cause.
If you don't think the poppy is politicised, consider a symbol commemorating the war dead from a nation you don't like. Imagine Iran playing Iraq at football and one or the other wearing some symbol commemorating their war dead. Imagine Japan and China playing and there being a symbol commemorating Nanking. Imagine Turkey and Armenia playing and there being a symbol about the Armenian genocide.
It is only the British who seem to think that the rest of the world should be forced to participate in their war dead commemoration on the football pitch. Somehow the fact that other people might like to remember their own dead - and that this might be problematic - seems to pass by those who want to take offense.
Eutychus, there is only one way to wear a poppy but to refuse to participate in the ridiculous British "festival of remembrance" militaristic nonsense*, and that's to wear a white poppy. And if you don't like the Peace Pledge Union, make your own.
*part of the problem is that we've forgotten what it is that we're supposed to be remembering, which originally was WW1, but gradually morphed into supporting all those who died in military service since. When do we stop? Somehow it has been acceptable to allow those who died in the Boer Wars of the 1890s to be forgotten, but those who died in 20 century wars are destined to be anuually and liturgically remembered forever. Why?
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I'm getting a bit worried by all the non-paper poppies proliferating around. If someone buys a jewellery poppy, money goes to the jewellery manufacturers as well as the appeal, and it only goes once. You'd have to be pretty mean and efficient at storing to make a paper poppy last several years, but the pins can come back year after year.
As with many other things in modern life, this just shows what really matters is broadcasting to the world in general that you're supporting a particular cause rather than that you've actually donated anything of substance to the cause.
To me the tragedy is that the NT seems to clearly teach (IMO) that giving is a private thing that one shouldn't be boasting or drawing attention to, and yet the socially acceptable forms of giving (in and out of church) involve signalling that you're doing something over actually doing it.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
... we've forgotten what it is that we're supposed to be remembering, which originally was WW1, but gradually morphed into supporting all those who died in military service since. When do we stop? Somehow it has been acceptable to allow those who died in the Boer Wars of the 1890s to be forgotten, but those who died in 20 century wars are destined to be anuually and liturgically remembered forever. Why?
Because when the Great War kicked off it was dubbed The War to End all Wars Then, when it was finally brought to a halt, the sheer scale of the loss and damage got people,(rather naively), thinking that such a calamity can never be repeated.
I'm not sure the poppy was ever meant to symbolise the futility of war. Sacrifice and honour maybe, which would have made it militaristic from the outset.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I passed the table selling stuff today - a T-shirt with something like "Standing with our Troops" on it - it isn't on their web site. That doesn't look like remembrance or supporting the ex-military who are not well supported by the country to me.
And on the web-site they are selling white poppies for the Somme. That is not right. Cornflowers, fine. But the PPU's poppies, not right.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I went to make my contribution for the couple of days wear today, making sure I had the right money for the donation - and they had packed up completely. I don't know wher else they will have them.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I think we passed peak poppy last year, when poppies seemed to be everywhere, including poppies on cars. This year I noticed many people who didn't appear to be wearing a poppy but when I looked closer I could see that they were wearing an unobtrusive small enamel poppy badge.
I don't know whether this is because the enamel badges are more convenient and less likely to fall off, or whether ostentatious poppy wearing is falling out of favour.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
This year I noticed many people who didn't appear to be wearing a poppy but when I looked closer I could see that they were wearing an unobtrusive small enamel poppy badge.
I don't know whether this is because the enamel badges are more convenient and less likely to fall off, or whether ostentatious poppy wearing is falling out of favour.
Or secret option C, that people have to look harder to see that they've bought the more expensive version....
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
My enamel poppy badge was £1, which is what I'd put into the collecting tin for a paper one.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
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Posted
I buy the pin badges because paper ones fall off. Simple.
Ironically this year I then lost the pin badge. On Friday I was in our local supermarket and the poppy seller there was selling knitted ones which she had made, so I bought one. Same size
as a paper one but it doesn't fall off.
I think the paper ones were less of a problem when I was a child, as everyone only wore them to go to the service and then took them off again. There was no expectation of wearing them at any other time.
[ 14. November 2016, 12:16: Message edited by: Gill H ]
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*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
Posts: 9313 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
I think we passed peak poppy last year, when poppies seemed to be everywhere, including poppies on cars.
You mean like this kind of thing ?
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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