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Source: (consider it) Thread: Christmas music - oxymoron
Spike

Mostly Harmless
# 36

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Nobody has mentioned Away in a Manger yet. Awful stuff. I hated it, even as a kid.

I read recently that Silent Night and Away in a Manger were omitted from the original English Hymnal as the Blessed Percy Dearmer regarded them as vulgar

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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing

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passer

Indigo
# 13329

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quote:
Originally posted by Rowen:
The only other person I know who is aware of the Low's fabulous song.....

So, is it you or is it Schroedinger's cat who works for the Guardian ?
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Pine Marten
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# 11068

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quote:
Originally posted by Jemima the 9th:

....everything on the Christmas folk session that BBC4 did a few years ago - Bellowhead, the Unthanks, etc etc etc...

Thank you, thank you, Jemima the 9th, for posting this - I remembered how good it was and have now found it on YouTube [Overused] [Yipee]

[ 12. December 2016, 09:56: Message edited by: Pine Marten ]

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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde

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Erroneous Monk
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# 10858

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I'll be in the kitchen shouting tunelessly along with Mark E Smith.

Jingle Bell Rock

Post office rot in hell
Friday night on Oxford Street
Walking with green M&S bags
Join them up with old beef and sprouts


Hark the Herald Angels Sing

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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
Nobody has mentioned Away in a Manger yet. Awful stuff. I hated it, even as a kid.

I read recently that Silent Night and Away in a Manger were omitted from the original English Hymnal as the Blessed Percy Dearmer regarded them as vulgar

Away in a Manger is much better sung to the Wombles Theme.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Away in a Manger is much better sung to the Wombles Theme.

[Killing me] [Killing me] [Killing me]

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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No, no - AIAM is better not sung at all.

Sentimental clap-trap - no wonder the Blessed Percy didn't like it...

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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Jane R
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# 331

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Actually, anything written before the 19th century is likely to be a popular song not intended for use in church. The Coventry Carol, for example, was written for the Coventry Mystery Plays (which were performed as part of the Corpus Christi celebrations).

The tune for 'Ding Dong Merrily on High' is also medieval, but the words weren't written until much later. It was originally the tune for a very boisterous dance called the Official Branle.

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Penny S
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# 14768

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My mother did not like certain verses in 'Once in Royal'. As a child, she felt she was being got at.

Kings' College (the one on the Strand) omit those verses from the version in their final carol service, so I feel happier singing it.

I missed an opportunity to sing 'while Shepherd's Watched' to 'Cranbook' aka 'On Ilkley Moor Baht'at' last night, which I regret.

[ 12. December 2016, 14:08: Message edited by: Penny S ]

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Pine Marten
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# 11068

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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:

I missed an opportunity to sing 'while Shepherd's Watched' to 'Cranbook' aka 'On Ilkley Moor Baht'at' last night, which I regret.

We shall happily be singing this on Saturday at the Richard III Society carol service at Fotheringhay [Smile] . I look forward to it every time...

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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde

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Baptist Trainfan
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And we shall have it at our Carol Service on Sunday.
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Stercus Tauri
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# 16668

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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
No, no - AIAM is better not sung at all.

Sentimental clap-trap - no wonder the Blessed Percy didn't like it...

IJ

Agreed. John Bell had a good comment: "The little Lord Jesus, no crying he makes"? "What's wrong with the bairn? That's not normal."

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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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He wasn't a "normal" child.

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"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

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Stercus Tauri
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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
He wasn't a "normal" child.

That's deeper theology than I want to get into!

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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)

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leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
He wasn't a "normal" child.

That's deeper theology than I want to get into!
It's also heretical!

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

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quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
He wasn't a "normal" child.

That's deeper theology than I want to get into!
It sort of implies that a baby's cries may be sinful. Otherwise why shouldn't he cry? Unless the "grace" Mary was full of included a baby that would sleep through the night from the word go.
[Angel]

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
# 64

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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
He wasn't a "normal" child.

He was. Fully human, I think you will find. So he would have cried.

And I wanted to get to the Low Christmas tour, but it wasn't going to happen, sadly.

--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

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Fr Weber
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# 13472

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This is my absolute favorite comprehensive evaluation of Christmas songs. I'm generally in agreement with his opinions on these, surprisingly.

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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
This is my absolute favorite comprehensive evaluation of Christmas songs. I'm generally in agreement with his opinions on these, surprisingly.

One hopes you are not the sophist windbag he appears to be.

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"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

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Fr Weber
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# 13472

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I guess it depends on who you ask.

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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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Dafyd
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# 5549

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quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
I read recently that Silent Night and Away in a Manger were omitted from the original English Hymnal as the Blessed Percy Dearmer regarded them as vulgar

Let us bless the Blessed Percy.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Dafyd
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# 5549

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quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
John Bell had a good comment: "The little Lord Jesus, no crying he makes"? "What's wrong with the bairn? That's not normal."

While Away in a Manger is dire for many reasons, most babies do not start crying immediately they wake up.
(Although if they do it is nothing directly to do with anything our Lord would have been preserved from.)

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Hedgehog

Ship's Shortstop
# 14125

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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
John Bell had a good comment: "The little Lord Jesus, no crying he makes"? "What's wrong with the bairn? That's not normal."

While Away in a Manger is dire for many reasons, most babies do not start crying immediately they wake up.
Yes, that's the point:
quote:
The cattle are lowing, the baby awakes,
But little Lord Jesus no crying he makes.

does not mean that he never, ever cried. Just that he didn't at that point in the song. I have had it on good authority from many sources that there are many things that make the Baby Jesus cry. Including wretched Christmas songs.

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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'

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Pancho
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# 13533

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Egeria:
Mousethief said:

quote:
Just once, just one day a year for God's sake, let us celebrate his humanity, his like-us-ness, the fact that he has taken on OUR nature. God has a shitty diaper. Thanks be to God.

There is a Latin American Christmas carol about this very thing--the lyrics have to do with Mary hanging out the diapers! Sorry I cannot provide more information. Where did I hear this? Might have been at our University's annual holiday concert, a few years ago.
I would love to hear this!

It's actually a Spanish carol called "Los Peces en el Río" that's well known in Latin America, or at least in Mexico. I couldn't find a folk version that I liked, so here is an adult contemporary one: Los Peces en el Río

The verse that Egeria mentions goes like this:

La Virgen lava pañales
y los tiende en el romero.
Los pajarillos cantando
y el romero floreciendo.


which means,

The Virgin washes diapers
and she hangs them upon the rosemary.
The little birds (are) singing
and the rosemary (is) blooming.


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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"

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The5thMary
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# 12953

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I am a drummer and I absolutely despise "The Little Drummer Boy". It's insipid. And if I'm Mary, Jesus's mom and I've just given birth in a stinky, cruddy, cold manger, the last damn thing I want is to hear some kid banging a drum!

"Silent Night" is good. "O, Come, O Come, Emmanuel", "Joy To The World" are all good ones as long as they're not sung by some moronic has-been singer. But, "Frosty the Snowman"? Ugh. Kill me now. "Santa Claus Is Coming To Town"? Again, please, kill me.

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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
It's actually a Spanish carol called "Los Peces en el Río" that's well known in Latin America, or at least in Mexico. I couldn't find a folk version that I liked, so here is an adult contemporary one: Los Peces en el Río

The verse that Egeria mentions goes like this:

La Virgen lava pañales
y los tiende en el romero.
Los pajarillos cantando
y el romero floreciendo.


which means,

The Virgin washes diapers
and she hangs them upon the rosemary.
The little birds (are) singing
and the rosemary (is) blooming.

Thank you! How lovely. I don't think I'd eat that rosemary though.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Spike

Mostly Harmless
# 36

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quote:
Originally posted by The5thMary:
I am a drummer

Don't worry, I'll pray for you [Two face]

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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing

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Dafyd
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# 5549

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quote:
Originally posted by The5thMary:
I am a drummer and I absolutely despise "The Little Drummer Boy". It's insipid. And if I'm Mary, Jesus's mom and I've just given birth in a stinky, cruddy, cold manger, the last damn thing I want is to hear some kid banging a drum!

Oh come. The Little Drummer Boy is an allegory of the church. We make the loudest noise we can and we think we're helping.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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L'organist
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# 17338

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Mary's boy-child, especially as warbled by Johnny Mathis should be consigned to the hottest part of the fiery pit, closely followed by the version by Boney M.

The saccharine Christmas isn't Christmas 'til it happens in your heart also deserves a mention - the only use for this nauseating tosh is as an emetic [Projectile]

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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quote:
Originally posted by The5thMary:
"Silent Night" is good. "O, Come, O Come, Emmanuel", "Joy To The World" are all good ones as long as they're not sung by some moronic has-been singer. But, "Frosty the Snowman"? Ugh. Kill me now. "Santa Claus Is Coming To Town"? Again, please, kill me.

A church where I used to work had a children's service on Christmas Eve. It included "Frosty," "Rudolph," and "Jingle Bells," as well as a few actual Christmas carols. The Rector explained to me that children don't get to sing Christmas songs in school anymore, so this was the only way for them to hear them. I tried to explain that kids are exposed to lots of secular "Christmas" music, but church was probably the only place they'd hear Christian Christmas music. (Needless to say, that Rector is now a Bishop.)
[Roll Eyes]

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Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by The5thMary:
I am a drummer

Don't worry, I'll pray for you [Two face]
One of Matt Redman's jokes (from the era when Colin Brooks was his drummer) always made me smile.

"We work a lot on deciding the right tempo for songs, then Colin does his own thing".

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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At the risk of being un-Hellish...

I've noticed a bit of a shift over my lifetime. When I were a young orc-imp, Christmas Carols were belted out lustily when opportunity arose. Carol services, school Christmas concerts and whatnot - everyone knew them, they were common currency.

But I get occasionally the short straw to go to the carol service for the local CofE school the younger two hobgoblins attend and despite there being upward of a couple of hundred parents there, many of whom have queued for an hour since dropping their Clurichauns off at the school gates, I find myself singing a duet with the organist. Do people not know them any more? Do they not sing them?

Then I thought, I did, back to when I were a mere hobgoblin myself, and remembered how the background muzak of Christmas was carols. It played in the shops, it played on the streets as the Bedford Lions raised money for whatever they raised money for. But then, and since, a series of Christmas songs started hitting the charts. Slade, Paul McCartney, Wham - you know the standard collection. They all did it. And their works seem to have displaced the carols in the background sounds of the run up to Christmas, as if the evil twin of the Jester stealing the King's thorny crown. The problem is that this Jester's Twin was mostly producing crap.

Who'd a-thunk it. Cliff Richard is to blame.

[ 14. December 2016, 12:53: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Rosa Gallica officinalis
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Following on from Karl's observations there's also the problem that school children are learning some really good new carols which tell the story in the same way as the traditional carols, however these are not being learned by the church congregations or the wider community, so there's not a common pool of carols everyone knows any more.

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Come for tea, come for tea, my people.

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Schroedinger's cat

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# 64

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I think that is significant - there used to be the Bethlehem Carol Sheet with 20 or so carols on it. These covered most of what people knew as Christmas songs, with a few, occasional additional contemporary ones.

Everyone knew these carols (pretty much). that was it for Christmas songs. But since then - 20 years ago? - there are so many more, so many variations, because everyone wants to release a Christmas song. Some people are writing new Christmas songs (as mentioned). So the number of songs now that might be heard (in supermarkets and shopping centres, as well as churches) is vastly more. So we know them less well.

--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

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Baptist Trainfan
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The Bethlehem Carol Sheet still exists - it has been through many editions and we use it at our Christmas parties and the like (so does at least one local "secular" choir I know).

But I agree that "school" and "church" carols seem to be diverging.

[ 15. December 2016, 17:05: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
At the risk of being un-Hellish...

I've noticed a bit of a shift over my lifetime. When I were a young orc-imp, Christmas Carols were belted out lustily when opportunity arose. Carol services, school Christmas concerts and whatnot - everyone knew them, they were common currency.

But I get occasionally the short straw to go to the carol service for the local CofE school the younger two hobgoblins attend and despite there being upward of a couple of hundred parents there, many of whom have queued for an hour since dropping their Clurichauns off at the school gates, I find myself singing a duet with the organist. Do people not know them any more? Do they not sing them?

This suggests that the parents of your children's schoolmates belong to a younger generation than yours.

Either that, or they just had a different upbringing.

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Spike

Mostly Harmless
# 36

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
At the risk of being un-Hellish...

I've noticed a bit of a shift over my lifetime. When I were a young orc-imp, Christmas Carols were belted out lustily when opportunity arose. Carol services, school Christmas concerts and whatnot - everyone knew them, they were common currency.

But I get occasionally the short straw to go to the carol service for the local CofE school the younger two hobgoblins attend and despite there being upward of a couple of hundred parents there, many of whom have queued for an hour since dropping their Clurichauns off at the school gates, I find myself singing a duet with the organist. Do people not know them any more? Do they not sing them?

Then I thought, I did, back to when I were a mere hobgoblin myself, and remembered how the background muzak of Christmas was carols. It played in the shops, it played on the streets as the Bedford Lions raised money for whatever they raised money for. But then, and since, a series of Christmas songs started hitting the charts. Slade, Paul McCartney, Wham - you know the standard collection. They all did it. And their works seem to have displaced the carols in the background sounds of the run up to Christmas, as if the evil twin of the Jester stealing the King's thorny crown. The problem is that this Jester's Twin was mostly producing crap.

Who'd a-thunk it. Cliff Richard is to blame.

This article by John Rutter from a couple of years ago is interesting reading

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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing

Posts: 12842 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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One of the things on my 'To Do' list for 2017 is to check with our affiliated Scouts/Cubs/Beavers group as to what songs they learn in school.

My hope is that some such songs, at least, might be incorporated in the three or four Family/Parade Services we hold each year. Who knows, even the diehards among the Faithful Few (i.e. those who think church music died after the English Hymnal was published) might learn summink new and worthwhile!

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 8716 | From: With The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Al Eluia

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# 864

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Tuesday I woke up about 4 AM I woke up with Bing Crosby's "Mele Kalikimaka" in my head (the title is "Merry Christmas" in Hawaiian). It's a pleasant enough song, but it's annoying in excess. I ouldn't get back to sleep and could not shake the song all morning. And then in the evening I was at Starbucks and they were playing it! Auugghh!

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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Bit of both, Svit, bit of both.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17448 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

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quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
Tuesday I woke up about 4 AM I woke up with Bing Crosby's "Mele Kalikimaka" in my head (the title is "Merry Christmas" in Hawaiian). It's a pleasant enough song, but it's annoying in excess. I ouldn't get back to sleep and could not shake the song all morning. And then in the evening I was at Starbucks and they were playing it! Auugghh!

Thanks a lot! Due to 3 or 4 encounters with "Mele Kalikimaka" in a 24-hour period (one of which was the classic Christmas Vacation), I had that ear worm for days. Finally got rid of it, and now it's back.

Mele Kalikimaka to you, too. [Razz]

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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L'organist
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The only problem I have with the Bethlehem Carol Sheet is that it uses forms of words for carol verses which don't exist in any other place, rendering them useless if you try to use them for a large carol service with choir singing from harmony carol books. A small niggle, I'll grant, but still irksome.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Al Eluia

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# 864

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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
Tuesday I woke up about 4 AM I woke up with Bing Crosby's "Mele Kalikimaka" in my head (the title is "Merry Christmas" in Hawaiian). It's a pleasant enough song, but it's annoying in excess. I ouldn't get back to sleep and could not shake the song all morning. And then in the evening I was at Starbucks and they were playing it! Auugghh!

Thanks a lot! Due to 3 or 4 encounters with "Mele Kalikimaka" in a 24-hour period (one of which was the classic Christmas Vacation), I had that ear worm for days. Finally got rid of it, and now it's back.

Mele Kalikimaka to you, too. [Razz]

I'm sorry.

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Consider helping out the Anglican Seminary in El Salvador with a book or two! https://www.amazon.es/registry/wishlist/YDAZNSAWWWBT/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_ep_ws_7IRSzbD16R9RQ
https://www.episcopalcafe.com/a-seminary-is-born-in-el-salvador/

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leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
This article[/URL] by John Rutter from a couple of years ago is interesting reading

But hde is simply wrong about assemnbly being 'dropped.'
Posts: 23022 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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Your coding and spelling is enough to make the Infant Jesus cry.

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Get your arse to Mars

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Your coding and spelling is enough to make the Infant Jesus cry.

But I thought that little Lord Jesus no crying He makes.
[Razz]

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Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Your coding and spelling is enough to make the Infant Jesus cry.

But I thought that little Lord Jesus no crying He makes.
[Razz]

Cattle lowing are one thing. Leo coding is something quite different.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Gill H

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# 68

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The Rutter article doesn't match my experience. All schools in my area had assemblies, with singing (mostly trad hymns) until I left in the mid 80s and beyond. Our school was too big to use one hall, so Lower, Middle and Upper each had an assembly in their own hall. We were a bog standard comp in a fairly deprived area, not a church school.

I've just led a scratch choir doing carols and songs in the atrium at work for charity. Three or four experienced choir singers joined in but we also had three who had never sung a note in public. The passers by joined in happily with all the songs.

Despite the preponderance of Slade, Wizzard et al, you still hear carols in the mix in shopping centres. And at the 'Singing for the Brain' sessions I volunteer at, carols are sung lustily.

Oh, and there is always one person in any crowd who sings the descant!

Maybe it's the Gareth Malone effect, or the proliferation of kids singing cover versions on YouTube (sometimes clever
a capella versions with split screens and costume changes) but public singing isn't dead yet, and neither are carols.

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Searching for a new sig...

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Al Eluia

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# 864

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Do those of you in other parts of the world have annoying regional Christmas songs or variants on traditional songs (either religious or secular)? Around here there are a couple that I find entirely too treacly--and I have a pretty high tolerance:

Christmas in the Northwest

Sippin' in Seattle's Latte Land

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Spike

Mostly Harmless
# 36

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quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:
The Rutter article doesn't match my experience. All schools in my area had assemblies, with singing (mostly trad hymns) until I left in the mid 80s and beyond. Our school was too big to use one hall, so Lower, Middle and Upper each had an assembly in their own hall. We were a bog standard comp in a fairly deprived area, not a church school.

At my South London comprehensive in the 70s we had regular assemblies but never sang or had any prayers.

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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing

Posts: 12842 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged



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