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Source: (consider it) Thread: Veiled in flesh the Martin see
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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No other poster is making claims. And no other poster is as incarnational as you. So get your fucking ego out of the way and accept that. I don't believe a word of your framing story. I believe in you. Sorry.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17005 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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fuck you very much.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 19995 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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You're welcome. Or would you prefer the regard of someone uncritical? Rather than the genuine regard of someone who doesn't, can't believe a word of your framing story? Because your actions, your life transcends those words, makes them irrelevant? Unlike the charismatic evangelical bullshit sermon I heard delivered by a self professed prophet, no less, tonight. Or would you rather I believe the framing story THAN your incarnationality? I'm the unpleasant, charmless enemy who persists in genuinely honouring you, in admiring you. Sorry.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17005 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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I'm late to this love fest. What the hell is a "framing story"?

--------------------
“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

Posts: 63202 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I'm late to this love fest. What the hell is a "framing story"?

Who knows what Martin means, but Frame Story.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17101 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I'm late to this love fest. What the hell is a "framing story"?

Who knows what Martin means, but Frame Story.
Thank you. I suppose to figure out wtf he's talking about I'd have to go look at where their tiff began. I think I'll accept blissful ignorance.

(ETA: It actually never occurred to me that this would be a real thing that one could google. Never even crossed my mind.)

[ 18. December 2016, 23:16: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

Posts: 63202 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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Indeed. The -ing, is -ing superfluous as in much of my rambling. Frame stories don't have much matter compared with the stories within.

[ 18. December 2016, 23:20: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

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Love wins

Posts: 17005 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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Lamb Chopped is the substantial story within her claims stories.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17005 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621

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quote:
It's the only way I know to stop Jamat in his tracks. I must learn a better way. At 62 it ain't going to be easy.
Fair dos Martin? It aint that hard!

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

(ETA: It actually never occurred to me that this would be a real thing that one could google. Never even crossed my mind.)

Helps that I already knew what one was. And since Martin is in a tangential to reality phase, I took a chance that it was close.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17101 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Lamb Chopped is the substantial story within her claims stories.

Martin, fuck off! If I'm the substantial story within my claims stories, that proves I'm a damn failure as a Christian who ought to be glorifying Christ. I've got the same damn vanity problem you do. You don't need to rub my nose in it.

Fuck. Off.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 19995 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
passer

Indigo
# 13329

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I've watched the Martin-is-a-tosser threads for years, and on occasion have been known to spring to the defence of his right to be a complete knob. Lately however, the attraction has waned, possibly because he is such a complete knob. The sheer arrogance of his pseudo-Forrest Gump-channelling simplicity masked in his deliberately obfuscatory prose no longer entertains me.

I suspect I'm not alone in wishing he'd fuck off and set himself up as a prophet somewhere else. He doesn't appear to be attracting many acolytes around here. Perhaps there's some other wilderness he could wander, in search of redemption, or whatever-the-fuck it is that he seeks.

Posts: 1271 | From: Sheffield | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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meh. I went through the cycle with him. WTF?! - "oh isn't the eccentricity just so cuuute? - fuck off you opaque bastard! - meh.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17101 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
It's the only way I know to stop Jamat in his tracks. I must learn a better way. At 62 it ain't going to be easy.
Fair dos Martin? It aint that hard!
Hey mate, your graciousness helps more than you can know. I'm boring people here and wish to shed that skin. Too late I think.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17005 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
How about this one from Martin, on the Purg thread about bereavement:

Less is more. Less supernatural claims, less accompanying exclusion, literalism, damnationism creates space for more of the beatitudes, more incarnationality, more inclusive trajectory with confidence within and beyond this life.

Heaven can wait.

The trouble is we're so bad at doing the more that I doubt that the less would help. There seems to have to be a lot of the less for there to be any of the more.


Does that mean anything, or is it just Martin trying to look mysterious and mystic at the same time, disclosing some hidden truth?

Really? You can't understand that? He may come along and tell me I'm completely wrong, but it seems clear to me that Martin thinks some of the Hallmark movie stories of my dead grandma's quilt telling me which man to marry, and angel sightings by the sickbed, and remarks about how evil some people are and why they should be given the death penalty and burn in Hell -- don't do Christianity much good. He thinks we should have less of that and more talk about forgiveness and love and acts of charity.

He concludes by saying that we are so bad at the forgiveness and love part that cutting down on the tales of supernatural footprints probably wont help much.

---- Now. Maybe I misunderstood his whole post but when I read them I usually think I understand them so they don't annoy me at all. They are just not that opaque. Are people trying to misunderstand? Not for one second did I think, "Always so bloody gracious," was anything but a nice compliment.

And Passer it's not your call to decide who should go somewhere else. We have lost so many regulars from this board already. I'm sure there are hundreds of reasons, some as simple as, "Facebook," but I think others were just tired of being called to Hell and told they weren't liked. I miss them all and I dread the day the only people left are the lockstep thinkalikes.

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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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Twilight. You're completely wrong BECAUSE you understand ☺

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17005 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
And Passer it's not your call to decide who should go somewhere else. We have lost so many regulars from this board already. I'm sure there are hundreds of reasons, some as simple as, "Facebook," but I think others were just tired of being called to Hell and told they weren't liked. I miss them all and I dread the day the only people left are the lockstep thinkalikes.

Hear, hear. I could not agree more.
Posts: 24429 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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For the avoidance of doubt, I did not call Martin to Hell because I disagreed with him or simply because I failed to understand him.

I called him to Hell basically for being, as I saw it, deliberately obfuscatory.

Even I, Twilight, understood the post you rephrased and did so exactly as you did. But I don't know how you or anyone else can "understand" things like
quote:
And no...yes
as anything but deliberate obfuscation.

Encouraging things like that might incite Martin to think he can carry on regardless (which is what his similarly obfuscatory response to you suggests to me), but it won't encourage anything constructive.

Obfuscation is not conducive to keeping on board people with differing views. Achieving the latter requires goodwill on all sides when people seek clarification, rephrase, and so on.

It was a distinct lack of that on Martin's part that originally led to this thread.

--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

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I admit to getting quite grumpy with this post which is pretty obfuscating. Unfortunately I got grumpy about it in purgatory rather than hell. That isn't the correct procedure on these boards but on the other hand we had quite a good discussion after that without a hell call. And I really wasn't grumpy enough about it to want a hell call.

[ 20. December 2016, 08:38: Message edited by: mdijon ]

--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

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Was it on the Ship that we used to have AManFromMars? I remember his posts if ever I find Martin a bit obscure.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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Some people apparently can't be anything but obscure.

I started this thread in the sure knowledge that Martin can refrain from being obscure should he so choose, and more particularly, if asked specifically in the interests of better communication.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

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Here is an example of a fantastic and lucid Martin60 post produced following a punitive disemvowelling from Doublethink, who was then a hell host.

--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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Uh oh.

If any of you were Jesus ... which like my 86 year old going on 2 year old mother and my common sense personified and most particular, incredibly stubborn wife you're not ... oooh ... 'ang on a minute ... would I react as I do? Would I be insouciantly orthogonal with obscurity as a foil as I am?

I wouldn't dare would I? As in my relationship with my stepson. I never challenge him, always find a way, even 'though he's a Holocaust denier believe it or not and every other conspiracy theorist. Every. Kennedy. Apollo 11. The relationship is so precious to me after my being a bastard stepfather from this place and wondering if it's causal ... I wouldn't dream of agitating it.

I let the mask slip out loud once whilst watching some insane 911 'documentary' he wanted me to watch and had to back pedal. Not from reacting to him but to what I was hearing.

For his birthday a couple of years ago he wanted me to accompany him to a meeting with David Irving. It was jaw droppingly fascinating. And I was on my very best behaviour throughout. Luckily Interstellar on Imax followed.

So yes, I can do it.

But it's bloody hard sometimes ...

I Exoceted one of my church senior leadership team repeatedly on FaceBook when he started campaigning against aspartame and for Trump in 'he who has eyes to hear' terms because of the latter's 'repentance' on abortion at the age of 69 just in time for the presidential campaign.

He didn't post any more. Took it all down. Good.

Neither did the vicar - who must have had a word with him - and two other members when I challenged the bogus C.S.Lewis quote on politics he'd posted, being pedalled by desperate, 'lying for the truth' evangelicals.

One chap acknowledged I was right.

It's very hard indeed. Not to. Engage in ... combat ... vain disputations ... arguments one way or another. Futilely. Regrettably. Regretfully. Especially when Jesus is wrong.

Just now pushing back, no nonsense, with my mum on her need to clean her teeth despite not being in the mood and now being the only opportunity and with my wife challenging me parent-child (and her a head!) and leaving me nowhere to go for not listening to my mum read an interminable Christmas card missive out loud, not that she noticed. At least it wasn't the Daily Telegraph. She's allowed one in her room at a time. She filled her house with it. Hence the broken hip a year ago. I have to dispose of all the medication leaflets before she sees them. She still read the co-codomol box out loud.

Jesus pops up EVERYWHERE. And finds me wanting. Just as I find Him!

At least His teeth are clean now.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17005 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:It's very hard indeed. Not to. Engage in ... combat ... vain disputations ... arguments one way or another.
I can't see anybody complaining about you engaging. You make it sound as if we're resistant to debate here.

What I objected to was you being
quote:
insouciantly orthogonal with obscurity as a foil
I somehow doubt that was the case for the CS Lewis quote or the aspartame Exocet. If the people involved backed down, I suspect you made yourself uneqivocally clear - just as you did in what mdijon quoted above.

For the nth time, it's not about finding your views intolerable, or so far above mine that my head hurts trying to think up to your level.

It's about you choosing deliberately to make them more incomprehensible (and sometimes slipping in the deniable insult as you go).

Yes you go through shit in lots of areas of your life. Newsflash: so do the rest of us. We just don't wield it as an excuse, and I don't see it as dispensing us from basic respect for our Shipmates.

If you choose to use the Ship as a playground in which you metaphorically kick the cat as R&R from your woes (and to let off steam from that horrible charis-evo church you insist on attending because it happens to be the only one giving you even a 0.01% chance of being "incarnational" as you see it, which is still apparently 0.01% better than anywhere else you can find no matter how much they are WRONG), expect the cat to bite back from time to time.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17309 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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Bows head. Not hangs. I'd like to ask you personally to cut me some slack for walking naked here. But I won't. It's tough being me and tough on all I take and have taken it out on. No matter how I say it, it looks self piteous. The background looks like I'm claiming I have it rough. I DON'T. I am rough. I have it rough from myself. Pity me! Mercilessly please.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17005 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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For information: my response below to this.

Just reporting here, no criticism: I found this disproportionately discouraging. Falling down the elevator shaft discouraging. Along with the reasonable hostility I evoke from bored others above. I found my mood swinging from despair to unfeeling - not elation. The giving up the will to live remark was from on the way up from despair. I suspect that there's something low level clinically going on. The room next to mild bipolarity. There usually is one way or another! I was incandescently angry - very, very rare - one evening last week over nothing. Only I knew, believe it or not. The edge showed. I was cognitive and contrite about it with my wife.

I was going to jack SOF in last night, a very strong impulse. The strongest for years. I've taken long sojourns before. Years. But here I am, in the un-safest place and therefore the best in some ways to be cognitive.

You didn't find my remark about patronizing my wife's beliefs serious. It was. It was seriously ironic. I see all the layers of meaning in my interaction with her. She'll stop me in my tracks and I'll say "Good for you." positively. I modify my tone. I backpedal. I NEVER put her down, but in talking about what we talk about on SOF and in talking about what is preached at us I go off on one.

And it's clumsy to screech to a halt and try and backpedal and that must come across as patronizing. That's what I meant.

And failed to communicate.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17005 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Bows head. Not hangs. I'd like to ask you personally to cut me some slack for walking naked here. But I won't. It's tough being me and tough on all I take and have taken it out on. No matter how I say it, it looks self piteous. The background looks like I'm claiming I have it rough. I DON'T. I am rough. I have it rough from myself. Pity me! Mercilessly please.

I'd find all of that so much easier to do if I didn't have to wade through oxymorons and apophasis. Seriously.

[x-post]

[ 20. December 2016, 12:32: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17309 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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Martin: This is a text-based medium. Back-pedaling here takes the form of deleting what you have written in a rage, or in a funk, or as a result of some unwise decision. It does NOT take the form of vomiting it all out on the screen and then expecting us to psychoanalyze you. Or somehow magically know that you aren't yanking our tails.

If you are in that level of need, you ought to find a real-life shrink to help.

As it is, you've done this so many times that I'm leaning toward the belief you are deliberately yanking our tails. Particularly when I ask you to stop harassing me with your compliments and you lay it on triple thick.

If you aren't a troll, get some help.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 19995 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
For information: my response below to this.

See? You can do it!

As for me, I took exception to the "patronising" because in the context of previous posts, including one on the subject directed at me by hatless, it came across to me as you choosing to rejoice in your patronising rather than review it.

In which I was no doubt mistaken, but it would have been a lot less ambiguity if you'd left that word out.
quote:
And failed to communicate.
When two people have as much trouble as we seem to be having, the clearer we can make things the better. If we want the conversation/relationship to be able to continue, which I for my part obviously do otherwise I would have simply scrolled past.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17309 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
passer

Indigo
# 13329

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Hmmm. Just listening to this.

I am a poseur and I don't care
I like to make people stare.

I miss Poly Styrene.

Posts: 1271 | From: Sheffield | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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I don't know if ironic or seriously ironic or any humour really work in print when you are attempting to be clear.

Why not drop the humour for a while Martin60 and see where that leads?

I love humour - people around me laugh a lot because I love to get them laughing. But with me it's all in the timing of the quips - doesn't work online at all.

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Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 12737 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Martin: This is a text-based medium. Back-pedaling here takes the form of deleting what you have written in a rage, or in a funk, or as a result of some unwise decision. It does NOT take the form of vomiting it all out on the screen and then expecting us to psychoanalyze you. Or somehow magically know that you aren't yanking our tails.

If you are in that level of need, you ought to find a real-life shrink to help.

As it is, you've done this so many times that I'm leaning toward the belief you are deliberately yanking our tails. Particularly when I ask you to stop harassing me with your compliments and you lay it on triple thick.

If you aren't a troll, get some help.

You are the only help I can afford Lamb Chopped. All points taken. Thank you.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17005 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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Hostly furry hat on

A Public Service Announcement that the Ship is not, and has never been a source of, or substitute for, actual professional medical help. The H&As take the physical and mental health of Shipmates (as outlined here) very seriously.

If you need help, here is not the place to look.

Hostly furry hat off

DT
HH


--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 8920 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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Doc Tor, if I may reassure you, I failed again to run ironically with the ball. I'm very familiar with the entire system, let us say, from all manner of perspectives. This isn't part of it! Even Waving Not Drowning for me. I do find Hell helpful, therapeutic in a sense, but not exactly clinically so!

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Love wins

Posts: 17005 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621

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Don't apologise no one can possibly fail here. Indisputably proved several years ago by Myrrh. Breast beating is peculiarly unattractive and very Catholic. Mea maxima culpa [Projectile]
Posts: 2986 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

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There are Protestant equivalents of breast-beating of course.

Rome doesn't have the monopoly on that.

Meanwhile, head against the wall beating is a particular temptation here in Hell. Your reminding me of Myrrh makes me want to knock my forehead against the masonry ...

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15526 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

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Unhellishly, perhaps, I'm reluctant to give Martin60 too much of a thrashing as I can be as guilty as he is of some of the things brought against his charge ...

But hey, it's almost Christmas so I'll forgo some Advent restraint and breast-beating ... [Biased]

Martin60, I can cut you some slack only for so long. Generally your obscure posting style amuses me up to a point, but then it becomes wearing ...

Also, whilst I've also a tendency to hang around in circles that drive me potty, your persistence in knocking around a clearly bonkers charismatic church when you've moved on from all of that is frankly irritating. Either clear off and go somewhere else or stop whining about where you are - or worse - making yourself out to be some kind of martyr for doing so.

Get over yourself already.

Also, your mock-humility is excruciatingly boring and arse-numbingly irritating in the extreme. As is your tendency to try to absorb all criticism in some kind of pious, canting, self-righteous manner - thereby deflecting the impact and avoiding the responsibility of actually doing something about it.

We can only take so much.

It's bloody irritating.

Knock it on the head why don't you?

In plain language. Shut.the.fuck.up.

Then, when you do say something, be cogent, be direct, drop the masturbatory obscurantism and perhaps then we might listen to what you have to say. Underneath it all, you make actually have something to tell us that is worth listening to.

At the moment, no - no, you don't.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15526 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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Ta.

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Love wins

Posts: 17005 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Ta.

See! He can do clear and concise. But only when it suits his own purposes.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24053 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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He can, true. His purpose is coherency. Before he loses the capacity.

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Love wins

Posts: 17005 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

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You could have fooled me, Martin60. Coherency has never been one of your strong points.

Mind you, there is a discernible theme, as Boogie notes. I'll give you that.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15526 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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It's a new purpose. I need to put away childish things.

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Love wins

Posts: 17005 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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Oh, FFS. Gamaliel, your inability to construct paragraphs and your long-windedness are by far more irritating to me than anything Martin60 does. You get into stupid spats again and again. Your posts are tedious, dull, boring. So how about you shut the fuck up already.
Posts: 24429 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

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Fair do's.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15526 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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I strongly disagree with Twilight's assessment that people are called to Hell and forced out because they have different views. It is how they express those views that results in Hell calls and aggravation in general. It is amusing that posters who's styles cause anger are here criticizing. And, yes, I very much include myself.
Martin is called here not because he is different, but because he is opaque. And he is viewed to use that to skirt the rules designed to facilitate communication.
Martin can, and has, communicated clearly and still kept his own unique style.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17101 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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I mostly agree with Twilight, but I would propose a small amendment

The people who are subject to intolerance - even hatred - are those who think differently, and therefore whose thoughts and thought processes are not well articulated in the kind of propositional, quasi-academic form which is the only tolerated form of expression on this freezer full of filleted haddock.

Mystic-heavy faith, like my own, is experienced as a series of paradoxes. To write propositionally, I have to try and describe my faith and my positions rather than express them. Martin60 takes the risk of trying to express his thoughts, and receives the associated hatred, and I salute him for his efforts.

This place is about as full of unrest, of appetite for the unknown and even vaguely edgy, as a fish and chip shop on Friday night. As is the whole church - the arrival of Christ as anything as bizarre and unsettling as a new-born baby would cause much pearl-clutching were it to recur.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

Posts: 2147 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged
ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
I mostly agree with Twilight, but I would propose a small amendment

The people who are subject to intolerance - even hatred - are those who think differently, and therefore whose thoughts and thought processes are not well articulated in the kind of propositional, quasi-academic form which is the only tolerated form of expression on this freezer full of filleted haddock.

Mystic-heavy faith, like my own, is experienced as a series of paradoxes. To write propositionally, I have to try and describe my faith and my positions rather than express them. Martin60 takes the risk of trying to express his thoughts, and receives the associated hatred, and I salute him for his efforts.

This place is about as full of unrest, of appetite for the unknown and even vaguely edgy, as a fish and chip shop on Friday night. As is the whole church - the arrival of Christ as anything as bizarre and unsettling as a new-born baby would cause much pearl-clutching were it to recur.

oops, on rereading Twilight I find myself mostly to have repeated the thoughts expressed. Nevertheless, my thoughts as expressed above stand. True diversity is withering in the face of strident intolerance.

[ 22. December 2016, 15:52: Message edited by: ThunderBunk ]

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

Posts: 2147 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
I mostly agree with Twilight, but I would propose a small amendment

The people who are subject to intolerance - even hatred - are those who think differently, and therefore whose thoughts and thought processes are not well articulated in the kind of propositional, quasi-academic form which is the only tolerated form of expression on this freezer full of filleted haddock.

What I have seen is that the people who are really different, if it becomes uncomfortable, are shrugged off. It's the people who are assholes about it that get called to Hell.

Consider A Feminine Force. Her beliefs are quite out of the mainstream here on the Ship. But she has never been called to Hell, and often gets questions posed to her (or did; is she still here?) as the representative of her particular worldview. Because she's not an asshole. People argue with her, and disagree with her, but nobody that I've ever seen treated her with intolerance or hatred.

Maybe I'm forgetting some incident and others can set me right.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

Posts: 63202 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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[x-post: to Thunderbunk]:

This is bullshit.

For the nth time, the original complaint (presently settled) was about deliberate obfuscation by someone who demonstrably can manage without obfuscating.

I defy you to find meaning, mystical or otherwise, in epigrams - offered as a response - such as And no...yes, or prove that the response mdijon links to a few posts below is of necessity obfuscatory due to the complex reasoning involved.

Apart from being a Christian, I am hardly in the majority on this site as regards many views, but I'm still here.

Claiming a right to diversity is legitimate, but to claim a right to divesity within a community requires a minimum of effort on the part of the claimant if they are to remain within, and interact with, the community.

Anyone expecting everyone around them to simply be obliged put the effort into ascending to their higher plane of piety while they make no concessions in their communication is arrogant to say the least.

[ 22. December 2016, 16:17: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17309 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

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quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:


This place is about as full of unrest, of appetite for the unknown and even vaguely edgy, as a fish and chip shop on Friday night.

In my part of the world fish and chip shops can be pretty edgy.

Anyway, it always confuses me a bit when someone comes up with the old 'this place is not unrestful' kind of thing. If it didn't 'unrest' the complainer then why's s/he complaining?! If I don't find a thing provocative, I tend not to bother responding to it, because if I did, well the logical reason would be that that's because somehow it provoked me after all.

I think what happens is some folks (not necessarily Thunderbunk, I'm not that familiar with his/her posting history) just get uptight and frustrated when their views aren't universally applauded, or are called into question, even aggressively opposed. And rather then regarding the resulting feelings they experience as 'unrest' and take the challenge from there, just get all huffy and start - very paradoxically, imv - complaining about how the Ship and other posters doesn't work the way they think it should work.

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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!

Posts: 9960 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged



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