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Source: (consider it) Thread: Russ, you are either incredibly stupid or a Trolling Bigot
Erroneous Monk
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
.... like the nightclub example given on either this thread or the DH one.

*waves* It was me.
Sorry, EM. Wasn't slighting you, was just too lazy to look.
[Smile]

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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
WHO THE FUCK IS IT THAT YOU THINK IS BEING DISCRIMINATED AGAINST?

Discrimination is being discriminated against. Steve, the Homophobe, Langton is protecting the right to hate those Jesus hated.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
But I'm pretty sure we'd all be worried if there was a state of affairs where refusing to publish or sell Mein Kampf would get you into legal trouble....

If you agreed to order a copy of Mein Kampf for a customer and accepted payment for it but then later decided that selling it was against your beliefs, I'm pretty sure you could be sued for breach of contract if nothing else.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
WHO THE FUCK IS IT THAT YOU THINK IS BEING DISCRIMINATED AGAINST?

Discrimination is being discriminated against. Steve, the Homophobe, Langton is protecting the right to hate those Jesus hated.
Overnight, with the opportunity for some calmer reflection, I concluded he's probably concerned about discrimination against Godwin.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Steve Langton
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
But I'm pretty sure we'd all be worried if there was a state of affairs where refusing to publish or sell Mein Kampf would get you into legal trouble....

If you agreed to order a copy of Mein Kampf for a customer and accepted payment for it but then later decided that selling it was against your beliefs, I'm pretty sure you could be sued for breach of contract if nothing else.
My admittedly somewhat rusty law degree says you are likely right about that. But it would legally be a very different issue either from the one I actually outlined there, or from the 'gay bakery/discrimination' issue. You might be in breach of contract, but there wouldn't as far as I can see be issues of hate crime etc.
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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
WHO THE FUCK IS IT THAT YOU THINK IS BEING DISCRIMINATED AGAINST?

Discrimination is being discriminated against. Steve, the Homophobe, Langton is protecting the right to hate those Jesus hated.
Overnight, with the opportunity for some calmer reflection, I concluded he's probably concerned about discrimination against Godwin.
Is that Godwin Grech?

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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orfeo

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Depends on who the customer is, and why you cancelled the order.

(X-post)

[ 07. January 2017, 01:16: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
My admittedly somewhat rusty law degree says you are likely right about that. But it would legally be a very different issue either from the one I actually outlined there, or from the 'gay bakery/discrimination' issue. You might be in breach of contract, but there wouldn't as far as I can see be issues of hate crime etc.

Point of information. Is discrimination (say by not selling to gays) a hate crime? I thought hate crimes were by and large criminal (and in particular violent) and not civil offenses.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Soror Magna
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You're asking Langton for information?

[Killing me]

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
You're asking Langton for information?

[Killing me]

Well, I'd accept an answer from orfeo. Wait did I say accept? Prefer.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Steve Langton
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Mousethief, my precise phrasing was
quote:
issues of hate crime etc.
"Etc..." as in "all the various aspects of discrimination law, as distinguishable from the different issue of of 'breach of contract' in the post I was replying to". Trying to cover everything to avoid nit-picking responses....
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mr cheesy
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So you are not planning to tell me the moral difference between supply of pasties vs iced cakes, Steve?

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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mousethief

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So by "etc" you mean "and anything else I need to throw in there to make my argument work, to be decided when needed"?

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
My admittedly somewhat rusty law degree says you are likely right about that. But it would legally be a very different issue either from the one I actually outlined there, or from the 'gay bakery/discrimination' issue. You might be in breach of contract, but there wouldn't as far as I can see be issues of hate crime etc.

Point of information. Is discrimination (say by not selling to gays) a hate crime? I thought hate crimes were by and large criminal (and in particular violent) and not civil offenses.
Yeah, more than once I've tried to stop people from equating "against the law" with "crime".

But when it comes to the people who want to convey how terrible it is for the law to require decent treatment of the queers, it's so much more emotionally resonant for them to talk about "crime" and generate images of good, decent homophobes risking jail time.

"Hate crimes" are pretty much crimes, but with heavier sentences because law-makers want to discourage certain motives. So in some places there are heavier penalties for bashing a queer because of being queer, or bashing a Jew for being a Jew. But the starting point is that bashing people is a crime anyway.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Arethosemyfeet
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There's also things like "inciting racial hatred" in the UK that specifically punishes stirring up racism and isn't tied to a particular crime aside from that racism.
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ThunderBunk

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Just to record the fact that the incredibly stupid bigoted trolling (or trolling bigotry) continues apace among the deceased equines. Even they are thinking of raising some kind of petition to evict or silence, I believe.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

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Doc Tor
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If you could keep it over there, I'd be awfully grateful...

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Lost in Space

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orfeo

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# 13878

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Don't Ask, Don't Tell?

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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mousethief

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As soon as somebody shoots down one of his sick-fuck arguments, he drops it without a word and comes up with another. It's the classic "Oh yeah well what about..." tactic I have seen with conservatives since I've been debating/arguing with conservatives. Never admit your argument has died in ignominious defeat. Just pull out a new one. It's sort of the serial version of the Gish Gallop.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Sioni Sais
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If anything it's a circular version, with the earlier arguments that have been dismissed being rephrased and rolled out for another run in the neverending Dead Horse Selling Stakes.

[ 12. January 2017, 08:18: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]

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If someone takes a shot at President Trump will his bodyguards shout "Donald Duck"?

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Doc Tor
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And that's precisely why we have DH. If anyone (let alone Russ) could come up with something new, that, in itself, would be a novelty.

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Lost in Space

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
And that's precisely why we have DH. If anyone (let alone Russ) could come up with something new, that, in itself, would be a novelty.

Except that is not why I started this thread and not the problem with Russ, the Cowardly Bigot. Even Steve, the Homophobe, Langton actually tries to engage with what the others are saying. RCB shifts away. Even pure stupidity would occasionally find itself in a normal exchange, so it must be intentional as well.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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mousethief

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Okay I'm past done with the self-righteous coot. It's clear he is looking to justify his existing prejudice and nothing else. He has a politician's ability to avoid answering questions and a conspiracy theorist's ability to shrug aside all evidence and argument that tells against his private fantasy. Somewhere in there, there may be a thinking, rational human being. By you wouldn't know it by anything posted on the current DH thread.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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orfeo

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# 13878

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What does my head in is all the times Russ sounds like he's discovering how democracies and laws work for the very first time.

What? You mean sometimes people are told by the law to do things they don't want to?

Yes, you moron. The fact that you've never noticed this before is your privilege talking. And now you're like a child who can't accept the fact that Dad imposed a bedtime.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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lilBuddha
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Again I say the piece of shite is intentionally trolling. Too bad he is too much of a coward to post here.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Lyda*Rose

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What now?

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
What now?

Nothing new, and that is precisely the point. The only reason I reply to that bigoted, deceptive coward is that there may be others reading who are facing these issues honestly.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:

But I'm not sure why you think our current society's social construction of race is such an important and valuable idea that it needs to be perpetuated. Guess it's part of the myth of social progress.

Says the man trying to make the case for letting racists be racists.


quote:
Beats me how you can think you're adequately prepared to consider any case if your principles are based on your vocabulary and your vocabulary is so vague that you don't know what the word "racism" refers to.

Says the man who cannot maintain a consistent, coherent POV.

In the same post, you said "Beats me". Man up and come down here so that I may help you with that.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Gee D
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Well he did manage to get a Dead Horses thread closed for going around in circles. Quite an achievement. And sympathy to the Dead Horses hosts who had to read it all.

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Erroneous Monk
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What a sickening thread that turned in to. When someone is defending the idea that if a person believes black people are dirty, it's reasonable for that person not to want to be served by them, I guess it is time to stop feeding the troll.

I keep thinking of all the healthcare professionals over the years who have had racist patients tell them to "Get your [filthy] black hands off me."

[Projectile] [Tear]

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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.

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Golden Key
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There was an episode of "Grey's Anatomy" that dealt with that, EM.

I need to set this up a bit. Show takes place at a teaching hospital. Dr. Miranda Bailey is shepherding (pun intended, for fans) a group of young doctors through their residency. She's good, but very, very tough--so much that she's called "The Nazi". She also happens to be African-American.

Now to the pertinent bit: A patient, in bed and waiting for surgery, awkwardly refuses Bailey's help. Turns out he has a swastika tattoo, and didn't want her to see it...or to work on him. Bailey vents to various people. I don't remember the details, but I think they made a point of having staff members of color work with him. After it all played out, Bailey decided she'd never let anyone say that "The Nazi" nickname again. It wasn't funny anymore.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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mousethief

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I dropped out of that thread some while back because it became apparent his only two modus operandi are grasping for straws, and flinging sand in the other's face. He's a bigot and will do anything to keep from facing the fact, or at least from admitting it. I fear he is the epitome of a particular bloc of the Republican Party in this country, and of course other groups in other countries. His mind is closed, and what it has closed around are grotesque prejudices from the 1950s.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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lilBuddha
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He's a bigot and a troll. I maintain he deliberately wound people up rather than honestly engage. Though I commend the people who engaged him as it may have had benefit to others who read their words.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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quetzalcoatl
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I agree. A sickening thread to read, so much exculpation of prejudice, plus the interminable Gish gallop. An unhealthy mind on display really.

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one City, United, Love MCR!

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Dafyd
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I'm pretty sure that he's an example of the ruin that can be wreaked on impressionable minds if they read Ayn Rand at the wrong stage.

I might be wrong. But he expressed a belief that helping other people is not a moral obligation, and a Dunning-Kruger respect for the idea of rationality at the level of the schoolboy essay. I think he was spewing Randwank.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Leaf
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I brought this down as a souvenir from the DH thread:

quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Does the principle of not punishing the innocent mean nothing to you ?

By "the innocent" Russ is referring to bigots. Not people innocently born into what others identify as a race, but the bigots who cause them harm.

This is such a shining turd of willful blindness and hypocrisy that it deserves its own little plinth here in Hell.

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Leorning Cniht
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I've said this before, but I'll say it again. If something you're doing is hurting people, you need to stop doing it.* It's great that you didn't intend to cause harm - that's a good thing. But your intent doesn't alter the harm that's caused, and so once you find out you're doing it, you need to stop.

If you find out you are causing harm, but do not stop, you no longer get to claim innocence of intent.

*Yes, this is simplified. Sometimes all the choices hurt someone, and there's a question of weighing up competing harm. But the principle remains.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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It was not ever thus. I remember when Russ was a reasonable poster; one I sometimes agreed with, theologically. Not sure what happened.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Russ
Old salt
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
He's a bigot and a troll.

Having it both ways again, huh ?

You think I'm simultaneously expressing my own racial prejudice and only saying things to wind people up ?

Perhaps you should pick one explanation and stick to it, rather than two contradictory explanations at once ?

Or better still, stop trying to explain my words in terms of some concealed motivation and focus on what, if anything, is mistaken in those words ?

The starting point for that thread was the question of whether people's moral right to freedom from (racial or other) harrassment goes as far as forcing retailers to sell things they don't want to sell.

It doesn't.

There are limits to the range of behaviours that breach that right.

But somehow even otherwise-sensible people like Karl don't seem to be able to put forward a coherent view of what those limits are.

So this fool rushes in and makes an attempt to set out such a view.

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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Perhaps you should pick one explanation and stick to it, rather than two contradictory explanations at once ?

As a part-time reader of that car-crash of a thread in DH, this is fantastically rich coming from you.

You gish-galloped your way through the whole thing, swerving from one argument to the next as your opponents landed palpable hit after palpable hit.

You couldn't stick to one explanation if someone froze you in carbonite and super-glued you to it.

All that was left was you desperately trying to justify why people shouldn't label you either a bigot or troll, and them coming to the justifiable conclusion that you were probably both, since it mattered little by that point which it was.

So fuck you and the dead horse you rode in on. And no, you're not going to rehash thirty-odd pages of obfuscation and denial here.

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Lost in Space

Posts: 8358 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

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Seriously Russ - you were flailing around trying to justify out and out racism and homophobia - whether conscious or unconscious. Your answer to being told that your putative situations were racist was to try and justify your protagonists. You refused to accept that the solution to being told that you are racist, albeit unconsciously, is not to try and justify it but to self-examine and attempt to change your attitudes. That is bigotry.

And then you threw in suggestions like having to consider every country in the world for holidays and that surely that means we should consider Rwanda. Not helped by the discussion I'd had the night before where we had suggested relief work in Rwanda as a possible holiday destination. That looks like and smells like trolling it's so ridiculous.

So yes, you were demonstrating that you looked like both a troll and a bigot on that thread.

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

Posts: 13246 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
He's a bigot and a troll.

Having it both ways again, huh ?

You think I'm simultaneously expressing my own racial prejudice and only saying things to wind people up ?

Yes. Well, not only. And would be a better word to use.
quote:

Perhaps you should pick one explanation and stick to it, rather than two contradictory explanations at once ?

How are they contradictory?
quote:

Or better still, stop trying to explain my words in terms of some concealed motivation and focus on what, if anything, is mistaken in those words ?

There are pages in DH doing just that. Your replies there indicate either trolling or a pathological aversion to consistency, coherency and decency.

quote:

But somehow even otherwise-sensible people like Karl don't seem to be able to put forward a coherent view of what those limits are.

[Killing me] Karl thinks you were once reasonable, so he gets a bit of a pass?
quote:

So this fool rushes in and makes an attempt to set out such a view.

The reply to this straight¹ line is tempting, but I do not think you are a fool.² I think you deliberately spew your nonsense to goad others.

¹Pun not intended. But I don't care who you are, that's funny.
²Not that this makes you smart.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
The starting point for that thread was the question of whether people's moral right to freedom from (racial or other) harrassment goes as far as forcing retailers OF CAKES to sell "GAY CAKES".

Fixed that for you.

But of course, your response to this is the thoroughly ludicrous claim that "GAY CAKES" are something different from the normal cakes that a bakery sells, the offensive bits that render the cake homosexual being made from special gay-infused sugar.

Similarly, photographers object to taking "gay photographs" because they have to buy a special camera, as their regular camera is quite incapable of capturing those special gay pixels.

[ 08. May 2017, 13:28: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 17916 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Russ
Old salt
# 120

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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
the solution to being told that you are racist, albeit unconsciously, is not to try and justify it but to self-examine and attempt to change your attitudes.

If you were led to believe that you are racist, you would attempt to change. Because you are a good person who believes that all racist acts are wrong and that all racist beliefs are untrue. Am I right in that ?

If you were merely told that you are racist, you would consider carefully to see if there is any truth in the suggestion, and attempt to change (or not) according to the conclusion ?

I, on the other hand, lack an adequate working definition of the word "racism". So I don't know whether all racist acts are wrong and all racist beliefs untrue. (Seems obvious that some are). And I don't know whether I am racist.

I have read (mostly on these boards) the word "racism" used in a number of non-identical ways which imply different answers to those questions.

If there's a consensus-meaning that's consistent with common usage, I'll go along with that. But it seems there's no consensus on definition - a point I was trying to explore with Dafyd and not getting anywhere.

I tend to believe that most people are as a general rule more comfortable with people of their own subculture. That doesn't make them evil. But does mean that when acting in a public capacity (e.g. when hiring staff on behalf of one's employer) one should attempt to set one's comfort-preferences on one side and act impartially in the employer's best interest.

quote:
And then you threw in suggestions like having to consider every country in the world for holidays and that surely that means we should consider Rwanda. Not helped by the discussion I'd had the night before where we had suggested relief work in Rwanda as a possible holiday destination. That looks like and smells like trolling it's so ridiculous.
An unfortunate coincidence.

The suggestion was simply that there are (private) decisions that it's OK to make based on preference or whim, without any obligation to make a reasoned and impartial assessment of all possible alternatives. And the fact that the human race comes in a variety of skin colours doesn't change that.

Don't see what's wrong with trying to make a point vividly and memorably. Taking someone else's argument to an extreme of ridiculousness to show that there's something wrong with it seems like legitimate rhetoric to me.

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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas

Posts: 2849 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
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# 14333

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So, you are going to attempt to make this thread go 30 pages with your disingenuous bullshit?

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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lilBuddha, I'm disappointed in you. "Disingenuous bullshit"? Russ only wants everybody in the English-speaking world to agree on a single definition for "racism" before he can decide whether or not he feels happy that he's a racist, or inclined to stop being one. Surely that's not unreasonable?

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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[Waterworks] Forgive me fo being such a horribly unreasonable person.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 15761 | From: out of the corner of your eye | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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Seriously, Russ. We're not going to discuss whether you're racist here. That - over thirty fucking pages - is decided, and yes, you are a racist.

The only - and I mean only - question that has been left hanging after your ridiculous and mendacious exhibition in DH, is just how stupid you are.

I'm going for somewhere between 'extraordinarily buffoonish' and 'cartoonishly transparent'.

Now fuck off.

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Lost in Space

Posts: 8358 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Erroneous Monk
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# 10858

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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:


I tend to believe that most people are as a general rule more comfortable with people of their own subculture. That doesn't make them evil.

I don't know about "evil", but it does make us sinful, sin being what separates us from God and stops us from clearly reflecting His image.

It should, therefore, be recognised as a fault, and tackled through prayer, the sacraments and a firm resolution of amendment.

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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.

Posts: 2730 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
anoesis
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# 14189

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quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:


I tend to believe that most people are as a general rule more comfortable with people of their own subculture. That doesn't make them evil.

I don't know about "evil", but it does make us sinful, sin being what separates us from God and stops us from clearly reflecting His image.

It should, therefore, be recognised as a fault, and tackled through prayer, the sacraments and a firm resolution of amendment.

[slow clap]

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When you listen to Bruce's music you are [no longer] a loser. You are a character in an epic poem...about losers.
- Jon Stewart on Bruce Springsteen -

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