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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: This is for you, Motherboard
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tomb
Shipmate
# 174
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Posted
Those of us who have voted in numerous presidential elections surely have had wins and losses. After each of those losses, I suspect that you, like I, were able to accept the results and move forward.
But I am having serious problems "getting over" this one. Recently I came to the realization that the problem goes much deeper than just coming to grips with who won. Rather, I have finally discovered that my continuing malaise and distress are due to the reality that several long-time friendships have been changed, most likely forever.
The other day I sent the following [copy of a published essay]to two friends who were particularly adamant and outspoken in their support of the now president-elect:
"Please understand that I am not mad at you because Clinton lost. I am totally unconcerned that you and I have different 'politics.' And I don't think less of you because you voted one way and I another...
(The rest here)
[ Oh, no, allow me-- Kelly Alves, Interim Hell Host ]
[ 03. January 2017, 04:41: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Sorry about your friends, tomb.
But what does this have to do with Motherboard, please? Thx.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
TomB, this makes me wish we could "like" a post on SOF. I really have nothing to add.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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tomb
Shipmate
# 174
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Posted
She voted for Trump.
Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001
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tomb
Shipmate
# 174
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Posted
BTW, I didn't write this. It is a piece by Phil Shailer writing in the Hollywood Sun Sentinel.
Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001
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Pangolin Guerre
Shipmate
# 18686
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Posted
Well, you've certainly lived up to your handle, because those friendships are dead as door nails. I agree with everything that you wrote, but in calling them out like that, in such morally uncompromising language, you had to know what you were doing. I'm not going to lecture you about forgiveness, because in different matters it has taken me a very, very long time to forgive, and even then, the process is not yet complete. It can be especially painful when those we love demonstrate that, perhaps, they were never deserving of the love and respect we gave them.
So, while I am mostly sympathetic to your position, I have to ask, without you in their lives, is there anyone else in their lives who can, and will, challenge them to listen to their better angels? To say, "C'mon, Bill... really? Mexicans are rapists? Really? Ban all Muslims from entry? Really?"
All that said, your final paragraph, while crafted to avoid saying it explicitly, does say, by association, that your friends' voting for Trump, and their acceptance of his language, is disgusting. Can we, meaningfully, separate behaviour from character, and, after all, character is who the person is, or speaks, at the very least, to the state of their soul.
Posts: 758 | From: 30 arpents de neige | Registered: Nov 2016
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Pangolin Guerre
Shipmate
# 18686
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Posted
Ah, I wish that you had told us that this was from a publication at the outset. Bit of a misleading set-up, but it changes nothing that I said.
Posts: 758 | From: 30 arpents de neige | Registered: Nov 2016
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Friends who voted for Trump and Brexit have caused me a great deal of distress for the sort of reasoning expressed in the quote of the OP.
Even should both end up being fantastic,* there has been nothing behind either to indicate this, so voting for them reveals something less than good.
*Odds very strong that this will not be the case.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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tomb
Shipmate
# 174
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Posted
Good post, Pangolin.
This post was meant, primarily, as a rebuke to a particular person who betrayed me (and, indeed, her entire country by supporting a most unsuitable person) and just about everything I believe and stand for.
People need to be challenged for believing in unsupportable rhetoric and using their electoral power to support it.
You ask if "there anyone else in their lives who can, and will, challenge them to listen to their better angels?" I have to reply that, we had conversations before the election (we being other people on the Ship and elsewhere).
But surely you understand that most of us live in our own little particular bubble, and somebody challenging us outside of our experience is not likely to achieve any traction.
You ask in your last paragraph if we can separate behavior from character and hence, find forgiveness.
In this instance, I will say, "No."
Voting is about granting our power to another person. This is the essence of democracy. "Choose wisely" is an almost laughable cliche.
But in this instance, the Motherboard knew *exactly* what she was doing when she voted for Donald Trump.
If, in four years, he hasn't managed to destroy the economy, bring about our alienation from our European allies, goad Russia into an arms race, destroyed the very possibility of a 2-state solution to the Israel-Palestine struggle, encouraged the crazy-assed leaders of North Korea to continue their development of ICBMs--then I will humbly apologize to the Motherboard for my intemperate challenge.
In the meantime: "I Will Never Forgive You For Your Vote."
Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001
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tomb
Shipmate
# 174
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Posted
And, Pangolin, please don't whine about me not disclosing from the outset the source of my post. Srsly? Five minutes from the initial post to the disclosure and that makes me a bad person?
Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
Can we, meaningfully, separate behaviour from character, and, after all, character is who the person is, or speaks, at the very least, to the state of their soul.
How can we? Behaviour is character. Yes, good people can do bad things, but this is not inherently justification for those bad things.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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tomb
Shipmate
# 174
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Posted
BTW, Pangolin, you observed that I had "lived up to my handle."
What did you mean by that?
Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
tombs are associated with death.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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tomb
Shipmate
# 174
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Posted
Please tell me you're not the Motherboard's embittered transgendered cousin, once removed.
Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tomb:
And, Pangolin, please don't whine about me not disclosing from the outset the source of my post. Srsly? Five minutes from the initial post to the disclosure and that makes me a bad person?
No, but handing one of the Hell Hosts the task of reconfiguring your post to fit in with the copyright guidelines-- which guidelines you totally know-- does kind of make you a shithead.
I'll attend to that in a minute. As for the content -- I posted this one myself. Everyone in my family is very religious, and I thought, despite doctrinal or political differences, there was a certain baseline of agreed upon teachings in Christianity, ones involving charity, love, and basic human wrth, that united us in the end. The embrace of Trump pretty much blew up that faith for me.
The Religious Right said to Trump, suck our dick properly and you can be as depraved as you want to be. White Christian Americans largely said, we can be bought that cheap. It's shameful.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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tomb
Shipmate
# 174
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Posted
Lilbuddha, you really need to up your game.
Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tomb:
Lilbuddha, you really need to up your game.
Huh? Because she explained what Pangolin meant?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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tomb
Shipmate
# 174
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Posted
Bullshit, Kelly. I disclosed the source of the quotation almost immediately after posting it.
Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
In which world is 40 minutes "almost immediately"?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
You know we have a policy of restricting quotes to four lines. Whether you cite it or not. You know that. If you want to throw a tantrum about it, do it in the Styx.
[ 03. January 2017, 04:45: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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tomb
Shipmate
# 174
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Posted
And, Kelly, you know fucking well that I didn't violate any of the Ship's standards when I posted it and disclosed the source.
Get over yourself.
Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001
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tomb
Shipmate
# 174
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Posted
That should be "quotations", by the way.
Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001
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tomb
Shipmate
# 174
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Posted
And, Kelly, I'm pretty sure anything I've posted on the Ship can not in any we be construed as a "tantrum."
Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001
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tomb
Shipmate
# 174
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Posted
Fuck you, Mousethief. Look at the time stamps.
Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001
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tomb
Shipmate
# 174
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Posted
To return to the matter of the original post, I am calling the Motherboard into Hell for voting for Donald Trump.
If nothing else, this should diminish her authority on the Ship.
Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
It's funny how it's always the people with the reputation for biggest baddest shitkickers on the Ship who come completely unglued when little fluffy bunny me challenges them.
I know I made the shithead joke ( which, as a longtime Shipmate, I was sure you would get) out of Host mode but as of right now
Host Hat On
Take any questions about my host actions to the Styx.
Kelly Alves
Interim Hell Host
[ 03. January 2017, 04:57: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Friends who voted for Trump and Brexit have caused me a great deal of distress for the sort of reasoning expressed in the quote of the OP.
Even should both end up being fantastic,* there has been nothing behind either to indicate this, so voting for them reveals something less than good.
*Odds very strong that this will not be the case.
I think I never realized before how many people in America still have the opportunity to isolate themselves from people who are not like them. I guess I had some ill informed ideas that basic migration mean most of the US was somewhat diverse-- not compared to the cities, of course but more than in the past. All my life I have had the reality of diversity shoved in my face, so that to me diverse is normal.
In 2017 there are still people under the impression that most people are white a Christian?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tomb:
Fuck you, Mousethief. Look at the time stamps.
I did, dickwit. Here they are:
Posted 03 January, 2017 02:50
Posted 03 January, 2017 03:31
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tomb:
Please tell me you're not the Motherboard's embittered transgendered cousin, once removed.
WTF? And you, quoting someone complaining about Trump's insensitive remarks, are using transgender as a slur?
quote:
Originally posted by tomb:
And, Kelly, I'm pretty sure anything I've posted on the Ship can not in any we be construed as a "tantrum."
Right.
quote:
Originally posted by tomb:
Fuck you, Mousethief. Look at the time stamps.
The timestamps are considerable farther apart than 5min. Well more than long enough for x-posting.
Up my game? Not playing any games at the moment, you queerphobic little bastard.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Friends who voted for Trump and Brexit have caused me a great deal of distress for the sort of reasoning expressed in the quote of the OP.
Even should both end up being fantastic,* there has been nothing behind either to indicate this, so voting for them reveals something less than good.
*Odds very strong that this will not be the case.
I think I never realized before how many people in America still have the opportunity to isolate themselves from people who are not like them. I guess I had some ill informed ideas that basic migration mean most of the US was somewhat diverse-- not compared to the cities, of course but more than in the past. All my life I have had the reality of diversity shoved in my face, so that to me diverse is normal.
In 2017 there are still people under the impression that most people are white a Christian?
Not limited to the US. In the UK, the strongest vote for Brexit was from those with the least contact with, and least affected by, "foreigners".
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tomb:
She voted for Trump.
Source?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
[Please note host post above, everyone--KA]
In the UK it makes even less sense, because y'all have far less acreage to whoopdedoo yourselves to some secluded wasteland and avoid everyone who trips your wire.
I am reminded of a teacher of mine, who tried to explain ideas of white supremacy like this-- if we finally achieved space travel, and discovered everyone but us had three eyes and green skin, we would have to decide whether that made us freaks or whether it made us superior. When Europeans invaded the New World, they discovered most of the peoplein that world had dark hair, eyes, and skin. Like, everywhere. So, according to her, white supremacy evolved out the need to make white differences into an advantage, rather than an indication of "other"
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
( Forgot to add) You'd think 500 years would be enough time to get the fuck over it.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
( Forgot to add) You'd think 500 years would be enough time to get the fuck over it.
Oh dear God no. You should hear the Greeks go on about the Fourth Crusade.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Did they freak out because brown people, too?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Pangolin Guerre
Shipmate
# 18686
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Posted
Erm, tomb, I think that your anger is misdirected. You're pissed off with Motherboard, but you're giving shit to anyone on this thread who crosses your path.
1) Your clarification of source was posted while I was called away midcomposition.. By the time I posted my reply, your clarification was then up. As I said, it was a bit misleading; I read the OP as your quoting something that you had written to your erstwhile friends. As I also said, it changed nothing in my post substantially.
2) I wasn't whining. As Mousethief pointed out, it was 40 minutes between the OP and identifying the actual source of the citation.
3) Don't give lilBuddha shit for clarifying - correctly - what I meant when I said that you were living up to your handle. Your handle is tomb, and, as I said, those friendships are now dead as door nails. The friendships are now in in a metaphorical tomb.
4) What the hell was that thing about Motherboard's transgendered cousin? Am I missing something?
5) As to your reply, that you had had conversations before the election with the Trumpians, and that we inhabit self-affirming bubbles, so you'll walk away, because challenge is unlikely to gain traction. That's probably true. One thing that I CAN guarantee you is that your permanent absence will ensure zero probability of your effecting any change of heart and mind on their part. Given your current state of blind, unfocussed rage, stepping away from them for a bit would be a very good idea.
5) Your post does prove that I can agree with someone politically, and still get really pissed off with them. I know that this is Hell, and I can say pretty much anything I want, but telling you that you're being a fucking asshole will only deafen you to what I have to say, just as your telling your friends the same thing will preclude any good that you might otherwise accomplish.
6) Sir, step away the keyboard. Sir....
7) Or ma'am. Whatever.
Posts: 758 | From: 30 arpents de neige | Registered: Nov 2016
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Did they freak out because brown people, too?
Not so much. The Orfie church, after the 1054 thing, was much more colorful than the Caffix, who were primarily pasty white Yurpeens. We had Ethiopia and the Middle East and Egypt and all those various brown people already on board. (We had our own problems of course.)
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Riiiight, so someone is coming here to complain about another poster - who apparently doesn't post much - for voting in a way that over 45% of those who voted in that election did, in the process using a transgender slur and a piece that you've not even written.
I take it we're not talking to the Tomb who.used.to.post.like.this..?
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arse
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tomb:
And, Kelly, I'm pretty sure anything I've posted on the Ship can not in any we be construed as a "tantrum."
This thread is doing a mighty fine job of being one, actually.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
tomb--
Take a break, take a walk, get some fresh air, eat something. If only so you don't make any more remarks that you may regret in the morning. (Like the transgender one. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) )
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
It's hard to know what to say.
I certainly feel disappointed and surprised at the latest political turn of events. I fail to understand any of the right wing rhetoric flying around, or people who refuse to be inclusive. I'm baffled.
But angry? No. Lose friends over it? Why?
Most anger comes from fear - including our own anger. So the solution will be to deal with the fear.
I'm pretty sure both Trumpton and Brexit will be far less right wing than anyone fears - let's hope.
Deal with the fear tomb - and certainly don't take your anger out on Motherboard. I hope s/he comes here and explains her reasoning, that might help you?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I would still like to know what the precedent is for calling Shipmates to Hell over something apparently unrelated to anything posted on the boards.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I would still like to know what the precedent is for calling Shipmates to Hell over something apparently unrelated to anything posted on the boards.
Seems to me to be a totally uncalled for form of public shaming, verging on bullying.
One thing to call out someone on something they've typed here, an opinion voiced her, particularly when that person has shown prior willingness to engage in discussion.
Quite another to shame someone who has only posted four times in the last year (assuming my efforts at interrogating the directory are correct), two of which were on prayer threads and, as far as I can tell, did not address the election at all.
Plenty of people voted Brexit and for Trump for a variety of reasons. But calling out an individual in this way is akin to doxxing Mrs Evans down the street for secretly voting UKIP. Why do that?
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
Admin note:
Tomb, please explain what on earth this is all about. Are you calling MB to Hell over the way she voted? You've been around long enough to know that we do not allow off board arguments to be dragged on to the boards.
[ 03. January 2017, 08:30: Message edited by: Spike ]
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Apols, I started a thread in Styx making this very point.
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arse
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
Admin note:
Tomb, please explain what on earth this is all about. Are you calling MB to Hell over the way she voted? You've been around long enough to know that we do not allow off board arguments to be dragged on to the boards.
Which is why this thread is closed. There is a discussion to have about how to cope with loved ones whose political choices are not your political choices, but this isn't it.
Tubbs
Member Admin
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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