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Source: (consider it) Thread: Are Episcopalians stupid or gutless?
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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Our leaders are counting on it being one or the other.

The choir of the National Cathedral, an Episcopal church, will sing at the inauguration of the short-figered vulgarian, according to the St. Louis Dispatch on January 11. (Rather interestingly, the Episcopal Cafe didn't have the story till the next day.) The cathedral always holds a prayer service for the inauguration of a new president, and of course the choir will sing for that, but the dean has also accepted an invitation for the choir to sing during the prelude to the inauguration, a civic ceremony.

The Presiding Bishop's statement (also the day after the story appeared in the Dispatch) shows that he either can't or won't distinguish between between praying for the president and celebrating the ascendance of a craven fool to the highest office in the land. We're getting the same shit from the dean of the cathedral and the the Bishop of Washington. The priest who will be the next Bishop of Los Angeles, my bishop, has on Facebook quoted from the Presiding Bishop's statement without making his own comment; I take this as an endorsement.

The PB, the dean and the bishop-elect probably don't want to be seen as endorsing someone who clearly wouldn't recognize the Gospel if the angels Gabriel and Michael together came down to explain it to him, but they also don't want to piss off the supporters of the Mango Molester in the church either. But feeding us bullshit about how important it is to pray for the next president when the real question is whether the National Cathedral's choir should be sent to a civic ceremony to celebrate him is disgusting. Do they really think no one will notice the distinction? Or is it simply that the via media is nothing more than mealy-mouthed platitudes for people without the guts to take a stand?

Should we pray for the president? Of course. But should the choir of the National Cathedral sing for him? That's the question that these pusillanimous putzes won't answer.

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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How about stupid and gutless?

Does the Cathedral get paid to let their choir sing at civil events? 30 pieces of silver is, I believe, the going rate.

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Charles Had a Splurge on
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# 14140

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I assumed they'd be taking the opportunity to sing truth to power

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"But to live outside the law, you must be honest" R.A. Zimmerman

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bib
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# 13074

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Do the members of the choir get a say in all of this or do they just have to do what they are told?

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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"

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Stejjie
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# 13941

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quote:
Originally posted by bib:
Do the members of the choir get a say in all of this or do they just have to do what they are told?

That provoked a thought in my mind: what would happen if the members simply refused to show up? Or (say) turned up, but with visible signs of protest at what they were being asked to do and who they were doing it for (if you see what I mean)?

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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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They should all wear pussy hats.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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Depends what they're going to sing, surely?

If they were going to do something like this, then more power to their larynxs.

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Improbable Botany

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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I suppose it might be argued that they're not really a quote unquote "National" Cathedral if they don't get involved in major civic occasions.

So much for separation of church and state.

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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Helen-Eva
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# 15025

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quote:
Originally posted by bib:
Do the members of the choir get a say in all of this or do they just have to do what they are told?

I feel sorry for the choir being put in a position where they're at the centre of a storm like this. Whatever an individual choir member does now - do it or not do it - someone's going to hate them for it. I'm a singer and if I were one of them I would develop laryngitis right now.

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I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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Any form of prayer for the country especially regarding this inauguration is entirely valid.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Callan
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# 525

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If they are going to sing The Magnificat, Go Down Moses and an anthem that compares the coming of The Holy Ghost to a "shower of gold" then more power to their elbows.

But I predict it will be some inoffensive guff by Howells.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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Some setting of the Magnificat would be interesting.

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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Sipech
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# 16870

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Depends what they're going to sing, surely?

If they were going to do something like this, then more power to their larynxs.

For a not particularly Hellish take, I've opened a thread in Heaven for song suggestions to mark next week's unsealing of a scroll.

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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile

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Helen-Eva
Shipmate
# 15025

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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:

But I predict it will be some inoffensive guff by Howells.

"Take Him Earth for Cherishing" maybe?

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I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.

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Mad Cat
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# 9104

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The band of the Coldstream Guards played the Imperial March from Star Wars for King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia when he came to meet the queen.

Ba ha ha ha!

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Weird and sweary.

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Penny S
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# 14768

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I would definitely go for the Magnificat, and then he could echo the legendary king of Sicily who demanded to know who had written such subversive stuff and claim it didn't apply to him.
Unfortunately, Gabriel would not then turn up to replace him and give him the post of court jester for a year.

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
The band of the Coldstream Guards played the Imperial March from Star Wars for King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia when he came to meet the queen.

Ba ha ha ha!

/tangent

That reminds me of the story that while waiting for King Edward VIII to make his speech on the radio, announcing his abdication, the band of the Welsh Guards played excepts from "The Merry Wives of Windsor".

//

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
# 2349

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I am the author of the article (thanks to information from certain Shipmates who made me aware of the situation), she said, outing herself.

I don't see that there's any problem with the interfaith service. What bothers me, as an Episcopalian, is the way that church leaders are attempting to conflate the service with the secular entertainment.

A number of my questions were ignored by the NC's outside PR guy. What I really don't understand is why they wouldn't even tell me what they're going to sing. Seriously? [Roll Eyes]

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I'm not dead yet.

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Fr Weber
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# 13472

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Some setting of the Magnificat would be interesting.

A setting of Ps 79 would be much more pointed and appropriate.

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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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Al Eluia

Inquisitor
# 864

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Depends what they're going to sing, surely?

If they were going to do something like this, then more power to their larynxs.

How about "You Can't Always Get What You Want"? Especially since Dear Leader used that (for some reason) at many of his campaign rallies.

I'm not sure how I would have decided if it were my call. This is, however, an opportunity for public witness to the Gospel. Should it be ceded to the charlatans and hatemongers who make up the list of "religious leaders" on the program? Cardinal Dolan, Franklin Graham, Paula Shite (I mean White)?

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An omer is a tenth of an ephah. (Exodus 16:36)

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Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
# 2349

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By the way, here's a link to the final version of the article. The Episcopal Cafe went with the first version.

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I'm not dead yet.

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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One of the comments to the draft article linked to previously says it all. Noticer of misplaced modifiers that I am, ordinarily I would bristle at such a comment, but under the circumstances it rings ominously true. Church of Trump indeed.

quote:
To celebrate, to sing, to participate at this event is an endorsement by the official choir of our most prominent church of Trump.


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"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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I have just e-mailed the dean as follows:

quote:
Dear Dean Hollerith:

As an Episcopalian, I am more than dismayed by your decision to send the Cathedral choristers to perform at the inauguration of Donald Trump.

To pray that God may bestow wisdom and right judgment upon all our elected officials, including the President, is a good and noble thing. To acquiesce in the ascension to office of a man to whom Jesus would surely say, "Get behind me, I do not know you" is quite something else.

Please reconsider your decision before it is too late. Please tell the choristers that they will not be participating in this shameful spectacle after all.



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"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
A number of my questions were ignored by the NC's outside PR guy. What I really don't understand is why they wouldn't even tell me what they're going to sing. Seriously? [Roll Eyes]

Perhaps they have a surprise planned?

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Evangeline
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# 7002

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I believe the church should be prophetic-ie proclaim God's truth to society. So hell yeah the choir should sing but their work should be carefully chosen to proclaim a very clear message.
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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
I believe the church should be prophetic-ie proclaim God's truth to society. So hell yeah the choir should sing but their work should be carefully chosen to proclaim a very clear message.

But now Mr. Tangerine Man has said there's to be no preaching at the service.
[Roll Eyes]

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Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

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Graven Image
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# 8755

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Since when does anyone get to tell a church what or what will not be included in a service. This is getting worse and worse.
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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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If a formal sermon is to be omitted then it becomes even more important that the choice of hymns, liturgy, readings, prayers etc preach.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Soror Magna
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# 9881

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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
But now Mr. Tangerine Man has said there's to be no preaching at the service.
[Roll Eyes]

Wow. Where's the evangelical outrage?

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
I believe the church should be prophetic-ie proclaim God's truth to society. So hell yeah the choir should sing but their work should be carefully chosen to proclaim a very clear message.

But now Mr. Tangerine Man has said there's to be no preaching at the service.
[Roll Eyes]

Tiny fingers is a coward, big shock.
Or his handlers were just smart enough to recognise the potential for problems.

[ 14. January 2017, 23:47: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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It's not the Episcopalians who are necessarily stupid or gutless.

Jennifer Holliday, who supported Clinton in the election, and who took her cue about going to the inauguration from Clinton, has now backed out of performing because of the howls of outrage about how performing at the inauguration = supporting Trump.

I repeat, this is someone who is on record as a Clinton supporter. There's no doubt where her political sympathies lie.

But she, like Clinton, has some concept about the orderly transition of power, and the rule of law, and accepting that the worse candidate won.

Meanwhile, just like with Brexit, I spend a lot of time watching many of my left-leaning friends (most of my friends, like me, being left-leaning) doing their level best to find ways to cast doubt over the legitimacy over a Trump presidency before it's even begun.

I repeat, it's legitimacy. Not whether it's going to be a good presidency.

And it's all justified by "the Republicans did it first", as if we're on a fucking playground and it's okay if we descend to a level of baseness so long as someone else got there before we did.

And yes, I do know there are things surrounding Trump that are well worth investigating. But what shits me is that people can't distinguish between things that would be politically damaging and things that would actually throw into question the legality of his election.

I am truly getting sick to fucking death of the degree to which the left side of politics are showing themselves to be bad losers. As a left-leaning person, it's fucking embarrassing to be associated with it.

Singing for the President of the United States is an honour because of the position, not because of the person occupying it.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

I am truly getting sick to fucking death of the degree to which the left side of politics are showing themselves to be bad losers. As a left-leaning person, it's fucking embarrassing to be associated with it.

Really. It is people on the left that do this? Because Nobody doubted the legitimacy of Obama's election, nobody carried on for years about where he was born, nobody fought laws that benefited them simply because they came from Obama...

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

I am truly getting sick to fucking death of the degree to which the left side of politics are showing themselves to be bad losers. As a left-leaning person, it's fucking embarrassing to be associated with it.

Really. It is people on the left that do this? Because Nobody doubted the legitimacy of Obama's election, nobody carried on for years about where he was born, nobody fought laws that benefited them simply because they came from Obama...
Wow. You clearly didn't bother reading the bit where I said what I thought of a "the Republicans did it first" argument. Skipped over that bit because it didn't suit you.

HOW THE HELL does the fact that your enemies did something shitty first make it any less shitty when you do it? WHY the hell should I not be embarrassed about people on the left doing this, just because someone else did it first?

If you read for comprehension, you'd understand what "associated" means. It doesn't mean exclusive ownership.

[ 15. January 2017, 00:28: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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Just getting bored with your "Lefties are awful" rants.
Whilst I obviously align leftwards, I never had the allusion that all the left were better than the right.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Just getting bored with your "Lefties are awful" rants.
Whilst I obviously align leftwards, I never had the allusion that all the left were better than the right.

They're not "Lefties are awful" rants. They're "Lefties are behaving awfully" rants. The difference is the entire fucking point.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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Add behaving in the appropriate places in my reply and it is still valid. And that is my point, fucking or otherwise.

[ 15. January 2017, 00:50: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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Well, I wouldn't want you to be bored just because I decide to break the Ship's self-congratulating bubble once in a while.

If once every couple of months is too often, would you like to set up a Schedule? Is it okay if I ask my side of politics to behave better than the other side around Easter? Or should I wait until Pentecost before suggesting it might not be such a great idea to join in the general undermining of democracy?

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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I haven't paid enough attention to map out what it is, but you do have periodic episodes of over-reaction, which makes this complaint a bit ironic.

[ 15. January 2017, 01:15: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I haven't paid enough attention to map out what it is, but you do have periodic episodes of over-reaction, which makes this complaint a bit ironic.

1. This is Hell. The home of tirades.

2. The reacting is also driven by frustration at the echo chamber.

3. You don't seem to understand the word "ironic" either (given that I'm the one pointing out the existence of a periodic phenomenon). I'll add it to the list.

[ 15. January 2017, 01:19: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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That's just plain dumb Orfeo. People don't have to identify as left or right to care about things that legitimize trump. They merely have to care as human beings. It is quite appropriate as human beings to avoid anything related to this man and to make thorough disapproval.

We can distinguish between the sickening and the terrifying in this instance, and understand that there is responsibility regardless of the office the guy is to inhabit.

Posts: 10627 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
That's just plain dumb Orfeo. People don't have to identify as left or right to care about things that legitimize trump. They merely have to care as human beings. It is quite appropriate as human beings to avoid anything related to this man and to make thorough disapproval

I care about things that legitimize Trump. You know, like elections.

EDIT: Did you even READ the link that you posted? You know, the one that explicitly accepts legitimacy?

[ 15. January 2017, 01:27: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
The priest who will be the next Bishop of Los Angeles, my bishop, has on Facebook quoted from the Presiding Bishop's statement without making his own comment; I take this as an endorsement.

I am happy to report that I was wrong about this. John Taylor says that he is skeptical about the advisability of the choir singing at the inauguration.

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
I believe the church should be prophetic-ie proclaim God's truth to society. So hell yeah the choir should sing but their work should be carefully chosen to proclaim a very clear message.

But now Mr. Tangerine Man has said there's to be no preaching at the service.
[Roll Eyes]

And the cathedral bigwigs have rolled over for this. Dear god.

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Meanwhile, just like with Brexit, I spend a lot of time watching many of my left-leaning friends (most of my friends, like me, being left-leaning) doing their level best to find ways to cast doubt over the legitimacy over a Trump presidency before it's even begun.

I repeat, it's legitimacy. Not whether it's going to be a good presidency.

And it's all justified by "the Republicans did it first", as if we're on a fucking playground and it's okay if we descend to a level of baseness so long as someone else got there before we did.

No, it's justified by the fact that the legitimacy of his presidency is in fact in question.
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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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How is the legitimacy in question?

Seriously, give details. I'm open to the argument, for example, I was interested in the questions about electronic voting machines.

But a lot of the stuff I've seen flying around is a variation of "we don't like him or his policies" that doesn't work as an equivalent of "his election was invalid". I think the man is an arsehole of the highest order and his policies are often idiotic or awful. That's a very different thing from overturning an election result.

No-one has yet explained properly to me exactly which bits of "Russia tried to influence the election" actually become a legal issue. Because heck, America spends a great deal of time and effort trying to influence political outcomes in the rest of the world. And America has basically enshrined the right of corporations to influence American politics. And there's clearly nothing illegal about being friendly towards particular countries because everybody does it.

What I want to know is, is there anything that tips it from "yuck, he's in bed with the Russians and that's revolting" to "this is an illegal situation"? Is there anything that turns "Russians tried to influence American voters" into "there was an illegal interference with the election"?

[ 15. January 2017, 01:44: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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The ironic is your over-reaction to over-reaction.
Hell is for rants, yes. My memory says you have not confined this to Hell, but that might be wrong.
I also don't remember you being constructive about this outside of Hell, but I haven't read either the US election thread or the Brexit thread in their entireties, so I might have missed it.
Regardless, having better expectations of the bit of the electorate whose positions you share is ridiculous. Stupid knows no ideology.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Regardless, having better expectations of the bit of the electorate whose positions you share is ridiculous. Stupid knows no ideology.

Really? I operate on the vague hope that stupid concentrates around stupid ideologies.

And also that the Ship, of all places, has a relatively low concentration of stupid.

[ 15. January 2017, 01:50: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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The ship also has a high concentration of people who care about other people. And that demographic is legitimately dismayed by Trump. And Brexit.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16372 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The ship also has a high concentration of people who care about other people. And that demographic is legitimately dismayed by Trump. And Brexit.

I missed the part where I said that was a problem.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The ship also has a high concentration of people who care about other people. And that demographic is legitimately dismayed by Trump. And Brexit.

I missed the part where I said that was a problem.
I didn't say you did, though your reactions seem to ignore that.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16372 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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Regarding performers not wanting to perform for the inauguration. Performers are a business and, for some, their business will be affected by the perception of support for Trump.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16372 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Regarding performers not wanting to perform for the inauguration. Performers are a business and, for some, their business will be affected by the perception of support for Trump.

Yes. And I guess Jennifer Holliday will prevent some loss of income by giving into the stupid. You would think that her fans would be aware of her support for Hillary Clinton, but apparently not.

I'm not critical of her.

[ 15. January 2017, 02:23: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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