homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | Register | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Hell   » Michael Nazir-Ali: go stick your head back whence it came (Page 1)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Michael Nazir-Ali: go stick your head back whence it came
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047

 - Posted      Profile for Arethosemyfeet   Email Arethosemyfeet   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
So, the Bench of Bigot Bishops decided that it was Michael Nazir-Ali's turn to flail wildly at something they disapprove of, and this time decided to demand that Fr Kelvin Holdsworth, Provost of St Mary's Cathedral, Glasgow, be subject to "appropriate discipline" for inviting a Muslim student to read from the Qu'ran during their Epiphany service.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jan/15/st-marys-cathedral-glasgow-quran-reading-david-chillingworth

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of having the reading, what on God's green earth is "appropriate discipline" in this instance? 100 hundred lines of "I will not allow readings from the Qu'ran in the Cathedral"? 20 press ups followed by a cold shower? Or, given how the tastes of these conservative types usually run, perhaps a spanking?

And while we're on the subject, does anyone have the slightest clue what the Primus actually thinks about this event? You have to admire the stamina of some people, you'd think the blisters from the fence post would wear them out after a while.

For the record, I find Fr Kelvin's explanation on his blog, www.thurible.net to be perfectly reasonable, and very much support his point about people commenting on second hand reports without actually finding out what happened first from someone who was there.

[host edit - decommaed URL]

[ 15. January 2017, 16:07: Message edited by: Doc Tor ]

Posts: 2656 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The link to Fr. Kelvin's blog seems to be unavailable...... [Confused]

I personally have a lot of respect for the scholarly +Nazir-Ali (he re-licensed me as a Lay Reader in 2008, so he can't be all that bad), but I do think he might have done better to remain silent.

The SEC has a reputation for being open-minded, and fair play to them. If the passage from the Qu'ran reflected a belief that Jesus is not the 'Son of God' as understood by conservative Christians, too bad - the history of Christianity is littered with disputes (and martyrdoms) over what precisely that phrase may mean.

And many Muslims hold Our Lady in far more reverence than many Christians, anyway.

IJ

--------------------
The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 7414 | From: With The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047

 - Posted      Profile for Arethosemyfeet   Email Arethosemyfeet   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Gah, there shouldn't be a www at the front. Try this:
http://thurible.net/
I'm afraid all I have to go on are Nazir-Ali's public pronouncements, most of which make him sound like a bit of a dick, and there is the lingering suspicion that his avowed homophobia is at least half the issue here.

[ 15. January 2017, 13:07: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]

Posts: 2656 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Thanks - that works nicely.

So, What Fr. Kelvin Said.

[Overused]

And to get 100 peeps (even including Muslims!) out to a weekday Sung Mass is indeed an impressive achievement.

Full marks to St. Mary's Cathedral, and to the Piskies! Keep up the Good Work...

IJ

--------------------
The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 7414 | From: With The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Seconded.

I think Westminster Abbey had a reading from the Qur'an on at least one occasion in the past.

I thought Nazir-Ali was going to wherever he was most needed when he retired.

About time he went as far away as possible.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 22745 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I recently finished Bold as Love by one Bob Roberts Jr, a book given to me by someone I would not have imagined to be at all open to interfaith things.

Roberts describes his journey into multifaith (as he prefers to call it) gatherings - and he's a Southern Baptist.

It sounds as if there could have been a more tactful choice of reading, but if one has to take a stand on either side of this divide, I am firmly with Fr. Kelvin. I am not going to back off my friendship and hospitality to muslims just because it upsets some Christians.

--------------------
One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

Posts: 16266 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
TomM
Shipmate
# 4618

 - Posted      Profile for TomM     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I am not someone who normally agrees with Nazir-Ali. Ever. I mean, along with Carey, I usually assume everything he utters is wrong.

However, on this one I think he's right, just for entirely the wrong reasons.

As part of the proclamation of Christ within the Eucharist, there is no place for anything that is not exactly that. The Liturgy of the Word is there to do nothing other than making Christ present, just as the Liturgy of the Eucharist that follows does, each in its own way. It is certainly not the place for gesture politics (of any kind!)

However,

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I am not going to back off my friendship and hospitality to muslims just because it upsets some Christians.

has nothing to do with whether or not it is proper to read from the Qu'ran during the Liturgy.
Posts: 386 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I help organise ecumencial services relatively often (interfaith ones far more rarely), but I admit that invoking Liturgy with a capital L is just one of those things that will get a blank stare from me.

I understand Liturgy is important to many people, but if the vehemence of Nazir-Ali's statement is directed merely at an act of liturgical incorrectness, I would guess he has quite a taste for camels and an entirely gnat-free diet.

[ 15. January 2017, 16:48: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

--------------------
One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

Posts: 16266 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

 - Posted      Profile for Leorning Cniht   Email Leorning Cniht   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I certainly think there's space to hear what the Qur'an says in a Christian service, in much the same way that homilies often comment on various writings - both secular and theological - in order to illustrate some point or other.

I'm rather less sure about reading from the Qur'an in Arabic. Yes, I know that's what Muslims do, and presumably the Muslims that were present speak Arabic, but I wonder whether many of the other congregants understood it? And I wonder a bit whether Fr. Kelvin would be as keen to read the Gospel in Latin. (Perhaps he would, from time to time. Or perhaps not.)

Posts: 4251 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I feel a bit for the student, he seems to have become something akin to a token Muslim, offering the this thing he holds as holy in a religious service whose central premise is that he is wrong.

I think he has been badly advised and the Cathedral should take a long hard look at themselves if they think it acceptable to have a Muslim perform like this.

Nazir-Ali is an arse, usually showing his faux intellectualism and bias every time he opens his mouth.

But he is not wrong here. Had to happen eventually.

--------------------
my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

Posts: 8349 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
You'd hate to be in church here when there is drumming and singing, the burning of sweetgrass and smudging, prayers for Mother Earth, and our sponsored Moslem refugee family taking it all in witb rest of use. 🐉

--------------------
Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

Posts: 10283 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047

 - Posted      Profile for Arethosemyfeet   Email Arethosemyfeet   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I have to say I'm profoundly disappointed that the hellions are avoiding speculating on the "appropriate discipline". [Devil]
Posts: 2656 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012  |  IP: Logged
TomM
Shipmate
# 4618

 - Posted      Profile for TomM     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I help organise ecumencial services relatively often (interfaith ones far more rarely), but I admit that invoking Liturgy with a capital L is just one of those things that will get a blank stare from me.

I understand Liturgy is important to many people, but if the vehemence of Nazir-Ali's statement is directed merely at an act of liturgical incorrectness, I would guess he has quite a taste for camels and an entirely gnat-free diet.

As in the Divine Liturgy, the Eucharist, the Mass. Not liturgy in general, but the very act that constitutes the Church.

The definite article was far more significant than the capital letter!

Posts: 386 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

 - Posted      Profile for Anselmina     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It was an Epiphany service.

Christmas and Epiphany services - indeed many different Anglican services at any rate - sometimes include readings from other religious traditions, or even secular reflections. If anyone has ever attended any number of funerals, such readings, music and reflections are almost impossible to avoid. Does Nazir-Ali police every Anglican service in the Communion for un-Christian material? Or is it just Islamic material he has something against? Why not the atheists, or the meta-physical poets? Heaven knows what he makes of Gibran, Shelley, Blake, Milton etc etc. To say nothing of music written by atheists for religious use.

Clearly, this Epiphany service was one of a series where religious leaders and their people shared in worship of God. And ironically Epiphany is, of course, about the 'showing' of the truth of Christ to peoples as yet unacquainted with him. Heaven forbid, God should choose to demonstrate that in fact he's not entirely imprisoned in the tiny box we've built him called 'Church', but that portions of his truth leak out all over the place, as HE decides.

It's not a new alternative to Christianity, or an attempt to amalgamate all faiths into one. It's an attempt to show that even religious human beings - well, some anyway - are capable of recognizing the image of God in each other and practicing love of neighbour.

Well, somebody bloody has to. [Roll Eyes]

--------------------
Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!

Posts: 9856 | From: The Wee North | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TomM:
As in the Divine Liturgy, the Eucharist, the Mass. Not liturgy in general, but the very act that constitutes the Church.

The definite article was far more significant than the capital letter!

I apologise for displaying even more ignorance than I thought myself capable of in this respect, but I still think Anselmina's priorities are better than Nazir-Ali's on this.

--------------------
One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

Posts: 16266 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28

 - Posted      Profile for Nicolemr   Author's homepage   Email Nicolemr   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I can't help feeling that including Islamic material in a Christian service is somehow insulting to Islam. Obviously the person who read it didn't feel that way or he wouldn't have done it, but I jut can't shake the feeling.

--------------------
On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

Posts: 11481 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
If we can't create and encourage hospitality between faiths in the face of those who brandish religious exclusivism as a weapon, sometimes literally so, we may as well kiss our democracies goodbye now.

Mutual recognition of faith traditions in a secular society is the only way forward for any of them and indeed for all of us, and the Church should be at the forefront of that.

--------------------
One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

Posts: 16266 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
If we can't create and encourage hospitality between faiths in the face of those who brandish religious exclusivism as a weapon, sometimes literally so, we may as well kiss our democracies goodbye now.

Is it necessary to share another faith's scriptures in our own services to do that? A sine qua non of interfaith goodwill?

--------------------
God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

Posts: 61997 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think a lot depends on how the reading was introduced. I would be most uncomfortable if the impression was given, in a Christian service, that the Qu'ran should be reckoned as equally spiritually authoritative as the Bible.

On the other hand, if it was introduced along the lines of "This story is also found in the Muslim tradition and this is how they view it", IMO that would be rather different.

Posts: 8500 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349

 - Posted      Profile for Anglican_Brat   Email Anglican_Brat   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:

Clearly, this Epiphany service was one of a series where religious leaders and their people shared in worship of God. And ironically Epiphany is, of course, about the 'showing' of the truth of Christ to peoples as yet unacquainted with him. Heaven forbid, God should choose to demonstrate that in fact he's not entirely imprisoned in the tiny box we've built him called 'Church', but that portions of his truth leak out all over the place, as HE decides.

But the point of Epiphany is that ultimately all truth leads to Jesus Christ, who is understood as God incarnate, the Second Person of the Trinity, the highest Prophet. The issue in particular as I understood from the service in question is that that portion from the Koran expressly rejects the doctrinal belief that is at the heart of the Christian Eucharist.

To quote the final lines from T.S. Eliot's "The Journey of the Magi":

quote:
We returned to our places, these Kingdoms,
But no longer at ease here, in the old dispensation,
With an alien people clutching their gods.
I should be glad of another death.

The point that Eliot makes is that certainly the Magi, coming from a tradition other than that of Israel were welcomed and embraced by the Christ Child, but that as a result of the welcome, the Magi thus rejected their former pagan traditions in order to accept the new truth in Christ.

This is not to say that there is not a place for readings from other religions or secular literature, but the Eucharist might not be the most appropriate venue for it.

--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.

Posts: 4169 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349

 - Posted      Profile for Anglican_Brat   Email Anglican_Brat   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Furthermore, reading the Dean's argument, I think he is trying to mix an interfaith service with a Christian Eucharist.

I think it is inappropriate to have the Creed recited when there is an intention to do interfaith hospitality.

Typically, in some churches in Canada, not entirely to my liking, I have seen the Creed replaced by the Summary of the Law as an alternative affirmation of faith:

"Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord..."

However, in this instance, that might be warrant the substitution.

--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.

Posts: 4169 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058

 - Posted      Profile for Net Spinster   Email Net Spinster   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
"Appropriate discipline" would seem to be an interfaith meal at a local mosque with Nazir-Ali and the Provost required to attend.

--------------------
spinner of webs

Posts: 1059 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010  |  IP: Logged
Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

 - Posted      Profile for Anselmina     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
If we can't create and encourage hospitality between faiths in the face of those who brandish religious exclusivism as a weapon, sometimes literally so, we may as well kiss our democracies goodbye now.

Is it necessary to share another faith's scriptures in our own services to do that? A sine qua non of interfaith goodwill?
Of course it isn't necessary. A lot of the time it probably isn't even desirable.

However, it isn't necessary for a just God to forgive a sinful people, or to provide the means of grace by which they may return to him completely reconciled, as if born completely anew. If God merely stuck to what was necessary we'd all be buggered, big time. Not even a merely merciful God is obligated to do more than the necessary, if he wants to play by the 'rules'. But a gracious God will do unheard of and unexpected things to win back his creation to himself. Hence the body and blood of God himself crucified on a tree.

Why not let prodigal graciousness and risky love have a go once in a while?

--------------------
Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!

Posts: 9856 | From: The Wee North | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
John Holding

Coffee and Cognac
# 158

 - Posted      Profile for John Holding   Email John Holding   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
What does a bishop (retired) of the Dhurch of ENgland think he is doing attempting to interfere in the affairs of the Episcopal CHurch of Scotland? It reminds me a little of Welby's attempt to ignore the SEC in order to rach an agreement on jurisdiction with the CHurch of Scotland. Contempt for the SEC in both cases.

John

Posts: 5862 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

 - Posted      Profile for Leorning Cniht   Email Leorning Cniht   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

On the other hand, if it was introduced along the lines of "This story is also found in the Muslim tradition and this is how they view it", IMO that would be rather different.

But the article says that the Qur'an was read in Arabic. How many of the non-Muslims present spoke any Arabic? I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the number was close to zero.
Posts: 4251 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
If we can't create and encourage hospitality between faiths in the face of those who brandish religious exclusivism as a weapon, sometimes literally so, we may as well kiss our democracies goodbye now.

Is it necessary to share another faith's scriptures in our own services to do that? A sine qua non of interfaith goodwill?
Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money used to help the poor?

--------------------
One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

Posts: 16266 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
If we can't create and encourage hospitality between faiths in the face of those who brandish religious exclusivism as a weapon, sometimes literally so, we may as well kiss our democracies goodbye now.

Mutual recognition of faith traditions in a secular society is the only way forward for any of them and indeed for all of us, and the Church should be at the forefront of that.

An idea that breaks down as soon as some thought is given to it. Satanists have a different understanding if Satan than Christians. So are you suggesting elements of their liturgy is appropriate for a church?

You don't "respect" another faith position by trying to crowbar them into your service.

It is is thing making a statement that x believes y. It is quite another to ask a representative to perform part of their religious heritage for your enjoyment and within the context of a service whose very purpose is saying that they are wrong.

That's not being hospitable, that's playing him like a puppet.

--------------------
my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

Posts: 8349 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money used to help the poor?

Nothing to do with it.

The only way interfaith can possibly be respectful is in the context of mutuality. Which cannot possibly be a Christian service asserting Christ's divinity for a Muslim - that is inherrently incompatible.

One can arguably do it in the context of a service which is carefully crafted to focus on things the religions have in common, but that's very clearly not what was happening here.

--------------------
my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

Posts: 8349 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
This is akin to announcing "..next in our series looking at damn stupid ideas is Islam, and we are very grateful to our friend Ahmed for coming today to give us a demonstration of how to read the Koran in perfect Koran Arabic.

After Ahmed has finished, we will continue at page 45 of the Prayer Book, the Apostles Creed."

--------------------
my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

Posts: 8349 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
But the article says that the Qur'an was read in Arabic. How many of the non-Muslims present spoke any Arabic? I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the number was close to zero.

I thought I'd read that the Arabic reading was followed by an English translation - but perhaps I was wrong.
Posts: 8500 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
As I said, my impression is that the vehemence of Nazir-Ali's comments is explained, not by the detail of just what went down, but by a refusal of the very idea of hospitality to other faiths.

Of course there are pitfalls, not to mention deliberate traps, in interfaith relations and I have experienced my fair share of them, but to jump all over the details in public is to send out entirely the wrong message - one that the Guardian has unsurprisingly not been slow in jumping on, and one that the rabid populists dreaming of "making the UK a Christian Nation" once again have not been slow to line up in support of.

The popular trend is all in favour of building walls of all kinds right now. The Church's emphasis right now should be the opposite, even if it makes some mistakes along the way.

--------------------
One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

Posts: 16266 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
As I said, my impression is that the vehemence of Nazir-Ali's comments is explained, not by the detail of just what went down, but by a refusal of the very idea of hospitality to other faiths.

Very likely, he has a bee in his bonnet about Islam and seems to crave a platform to loudly state how incompatible it is with British values.

But context matters, just because he is an arse doesn't mean he is wrong in this case.

quote:
Of course there are pitfalls, not to mention deliberate traps, in interfaith relations and I have experienced my fair share of them, but to jump all over the details in public is to send out entirely the wrong message - one that the Guardian has unsurprisingly not been slow in jumping on, and one that the rabid populists dreaming of "making the UK a Christian Nation" once again have not been slow to line up in support of.

The popular trend is all in favour of building walls of all kinds right now. The Church's emphasis right now should be the opposite, even if it makes some mistakes along the way.

No disagreement here. I'm all for interfaith work based on respect, together with efforts to help different religious groups with various struggles, particularly when there is bias eg in building regulations.

But that's not the same as parading a person from a different religion in the midst of a specific religious service.

--------------------
my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

Posts: 8349 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
The popular trend is all in favour of building walls of all kinds right now. The Church's emphasis right now should be the opposite, even if it makes some mistakes along the way.

Yes, and this is very much the theme of the material from 2 Cor. 5 prepared for this week's "Week of Prayer for Christian Unity".

(And, yes, I'm well aware that "interfaith" and "ecumenical" are two very different things!)

Posts: 8500 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Yes, and this is very much the theme of the material from 2 Cor. 5 prepared for this week's "Week of Prayer for Christian Unity".

This is very true, but I can't help thinking the German preparation committee were Pink Floyd fans in their youth, and will be hard pushed not to draw the comparison during the two events I'll be involved in.

--------------------
One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

Posts: 16266 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
You may well be write - especially if said members are "of a certain age".

Of course, you might also want to think of this song.

[ 16. January 2017, 07:51: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posts: 8500 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
(Or even "right"! [Hot and Hormonal] ).
Posts: 8500 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It's hard to think of a more inappropriate day for a reading from the Koran denying the divinity of Christ at an SEC Eucharist, and the Presiding Bishop's comments are apt. How did Bp Michael come to make that statement? My suspicion is that he was telephoned by the Guardian in the hope that he'd provide a bit of ammunition. Sadly he obliged with a comment more extremely worded than was necessary.

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 6116 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Jack the Lass

Ship's airhead
# 3415

 - Posted      Profile for Jack the Lass   Author's homepage   Email Jack the Lass   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I think a lot depends on how the reading was introduced. I would be most uncomfortable if the impression was given, in a Christian service, that the Qu'ran should be reckoned as equally spiritually authoritative as the Bible.

On the other hand, if it was introduced along the lines of "This story is also found in the Muslim tradition and this is how they view it", IMO that would be rather different.

I don't know Fr. Kelvin very well, but do feel I know him and the Cathedral well enough to know that there is no way in a million years that it would have been your first scenario, and that if it had been then the complaints would have been coming from within the Cathedral rather than externally.

What I am struggling to understand from all this is why it has unleashed so much abuse of such a level of hatred that the police are having to investigate it, and specifically why so many Christians feel that it is acceptable to bully and threaten another Christian community that they know nothing about other than hearsay from the likes of Bp Nazir-Ali.

--------------------
"My body is a temple - it's big and doesn't move." (Jo Brand)
wiblog blipfoto blog

Posts: 5735 | From: the land of the deep-fried Mars Bar | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Agree 100%. Clearly this issue has touched a nerve which has little to do with the "presenting" issue.

[ 16. January 2017, 09:44: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posts: 8500 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
# 440

 - Posted      Profile for Tubbs   Author's homepage   Email Tubbs   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I feel a bit for the student, he seems to have become something akin to a token Muslim, offering the this thing he holds as holy in a religious service whose central premise is that he is wrong.

I think he has been badly advised and the Cathedral should take a long hard look at themselves if they think it acceptable to have a Muslim perform like this.

Nazir-Ali is an arse, usually showing his faux intellectualism and bias every time he opens his mouth.

But he is not wrong here. Had to happen eventually.

Um, not really. Having read the blog post, it sounds like having someone of another faith to read during that particular service was something they’d done regularly. Without anyone being bothered. So, within the life of that church and community, perfectly okay. Not tokenistic or shoehorning. Just encouraging people to share with each other to build understanding, friendships and community cohesion. Until this year when the media asked retired-Bishop-Rent-a-Gob for a pithy quote.

The local Remembrance service has representatives from all the local faith communities who read and pray. Including the lman. Representatives from the local churches attend festivals at the local Mosque. Darned inter-faith co-operation and the whole loving thy neighbour thing. We’ll have none of that here. Christian churches for Christian people.

Tubbs

[ 16. January 2017, 09:47: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

--------------------
"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

Posts: 12556 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Does the "Um, not really" refer to my post, or not? - we cross-posted and I revised mine!
Posts: 8500 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
# 440

 - Posted      Profile for Tubbs   Author's homepage   Email Tubbs   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Does the "Um, not really" refer to my post, or not? - we cross-posted and I revised mine!

No, I forgot to quote from the post I was replying too. Added it in to make it clearer. (Need.More.Coffee)

--------------------
"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

Posts: 12556 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
How did Bp Michael come to make that statement? My suspicion is that he was telephoned by the Guardian in the hope that he'd provide a bit of ammunition. Sadly he obliged with a comment more extremely worded than was necessary.

The statement is on his blog. The Guardian naturally did not fail to notice it.

Perhaps Nazir-Ali is taking notes on Trump's playbook.

--------------------
One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

Posts: 16266 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618

 - Posted      Profile for betjemaniac     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:


The local Remembrance service has representatives from all the local faith communities who read and pray. Including the lman. Representatives from the local churches attend festivals at the local Mosque. Darned inter-faith co-operation and the whole loving thy neighbour thing. We’ll have none of that here. Christian churches for Christian people.

Tubbs

But Remembrance is people of all faiths coming together to pray together - I have no issue with that whatsoever.

I'm slightly more uncomfortable with other faiths (regardless of which) being inserted into Communion. In much the same way as it would be deeply inappropriate for the Pope to read from the Gospels to Hajj pilgrims. Other religions' MMV but I'm sure they've all got a line somewhere.

--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....

Posts: 1233 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013  |  IP: Logged
fletcher christian

Mutinous Seadog
# 13919

 - Posted      Profile for fletcher christian   Email fletcher christian   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Saint Mary's Cathedral birthed this Anglican. I have very fond memories of that place and even then (over twenty years ago) they were involved in tentatively and carefully reaching out to their Muslim neighbours in a meaningful way and in a form that involved a true sharing of faith traditions and mutual respect of one anthers' traditions.

But alas, it has been many years since I was last kneeling at that altar. I wasn't at the service concerned, nor do I know all the background leading up to it and I wasn't party to any of the discussions, nor do I know the exact context in which it took place (at what point in the service....or after it, or before it). However, knowing the careful work that has been done there over many, many years that was in a sense a deeply prophetic work in a world that now clamours to label all Muslims with the same brush and in the current climate of a more insular kingdom, I would be inclined not to pass a judgement too quickly. I don't think we have anyone who was actually there commenting on this thread, unless I missed it.

As for Nazir. Well, there is a certain type of church man who has a greedy ambition for what they feel they deserve and when they don't get it they often implode, scattering shards like this example. Perhaps that sounds a little more vicious than it is meant, but it's just an observation.

--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

Posts: 5092 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

 - Posted      Profile for Karl: Liberal Backslider   Author's homepage   Email Karl: Liberal Backslider   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It rather annoyed Fregory on that Bookface thing. But if it annoys Nazir-Ali I can't help liking it a bit.

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17191 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
Um, not really. Having read the blog post, it sounds like having someone of another faith to read during that particular service was something they’d done regularly. Without anyone being bothered.

Not sure the lack of anyone being bothered is relevant.

As a note, it may well be the case that an individual Muslim is not worried about performing in a Cathedral, several times Muslims have told me that Christianity, Judaism and Islam are all the same - and in the next breath say that of course Islam is the superior and final revelation.

Which feels a little like an Anglican church inviting a Mormon to contribute to a service, in the knowledge that they believe their revelation is complete and that yours is impaired, if not actually utterly broken.

quote:
So, within the life of that church and community, perfectly okay. Not tokenistic or shoehorning. Just encouraging people to share with each other to build understanding, friendships and community cohesion. Until this year when the media asked retired-Bishop-Rent-a-Gob for a pithy quote.
Listen, there are plenty of groups who do all kinds of things I dont agree with, including some belief systems like unitarians who think it is entirely appropriate to pick-and-choose the best bits of religion from whetever they like.

Fair play to them I say.

But in this scenario the context is an Anglican set liturgy for Epiphany where the church asserts, amongst other things, the deity of Christ.

If it was a different context, perhaps meeting to chat over coffee or to listen to different religious views, that would be completely different.

quote:

The local Remembrance service has representatives from all the local faith communities who read and pray. Including the lman. Representatives from the local churches attend festivals at the local Mosque. Darned inter-faith co-operation and the whole loving thy neighbour thing. We’ll have none of that here. Christian churches for Christian people.

Tubbs

Nothing to do with anything.

--------------------
my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

Posts: 8349 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It rather annoyed Fregory on that Bookface thing. But if it annoys Nazir-Ali I can't help liking it a bit.

You saw that as well?

I have PM-ed him over it ...

I must confess that anything that annoys Nazir-Ali tends to get my vote too.

In this instance, though, I tend to think the Provost acted sincerely but unwisely.

As mr cheesy has observed, inviting a Muslim to participate in a service where Christ is clearly proclaimed as God - which is what the Provost himself claims was done at the service - smacks of disingenuousness.

I'm all for inter-faith dialogue but it does smack of tokenism to me and a kind of 'Look at us, look how inclusive we are, we've even got a Muslim reading from the Quran at our Epiphany service ...' type of approach.

I can understand the Orthodox - as well as Anglican evangelicals and conservative Anglicans generally - having an issue with this.

What I didn't like on that Bookface thing was the way some of the Hyper-dox came on ranting and raving, 'Is outrage ... Protestant is sect. Anglican is not True Church. Anglican is nest of vipers. There is no Jesus in sect. No go to heaven in sect. Is outrage. Synagogue of Satan. Outrage ...' yadda yadda yadda yadda

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 14682 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
# 440

 - Posted      Profile for Tubbs   Author's homepage   Email Tubbs   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
A church is a gathered community. And what’s appropriate in the context of one community might not be for another. As a few people have pointed out, none of us were at the service. None of first hand knowledge of the inner workings of that cathedral. Just what we’ve read. And, on that basis, I’m done here.

I used the Remembrance Day example because, as people’s views of Muslims have become more negative, attitudes to them participating have changed. Sadly. The presence of the local Rabbi / Sikh Granthi pass without comment.

--------------------
"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

Posts: 12556 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Ironic, really. The Epiphany is a story about three blokes from outside the faith who, despite probably having some theologically dodgy ideas, knew enough to recognise something important was going on.

And here we are having a debate about whether it's okay to let people from different belief systems be a part of a celebration centred on God.

[ 16. January 2017, 11:27: Message edited by: orfeo ]

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 17841 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
Check out Reform magazine
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
  ship of fools