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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Michael Nazir-Ali: go stick your head back whence it came
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
A church is a gathered community. And what’s appropriate in the context of one community might not be for another. As a few people have pointed out, none of us were at the service. None of first hand knowledge of the inner workings of that cathedral. Just what we’ve read. And, on that basis, I’m done here.
This is a whole new level of faux indignation, as if nobody can talk or have an opinion about a church service they've not attended. Nonsense.
Yes, we only know what we read, but it is the context of what we read from those who ran the event that I am objecting to.
Fair enough to disagree with what I'm saying, quite another thing to say I have no right to take a view.
quote:
J used the Remembrance Day example because, as people’s views of Muslims have become more negative, attitudes to them participating have changed. Sadly. The presence of the local Rabbi / Sikh Granthi pass without comment.
Thousands of Sikhs, Jews and others fought and died in the wars, it is entirely appropriate to include them in a civil remembrance service. If only all civil remembrance services we that inclusive.
But that's a completely different thing to an Anglican liturgical service marking a feast day. How is that even vaguely the same?
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arse
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
In this instance, though, I tend to think the Provost acted sincerely but unwisely.
And I imagine that's what they kept saying about Jesus, too. Especially when he kept doing things in the synagogue that the church officials weren't crazy about. If memory serves they even wanted to throw him off a cliff for the way he self-appropriated a prophecy! So maybe the cathedral staff oughtn't to be too astonished at the vitriol and hate their, apparently, regular and hitherto completely uncontroversial sharing in worship has led to.
I don't know enough of the details - eg, was it a eucharist? or an interfaith service? both? - to really make a final judgement on this occasion. And I don't think sincerity should necessarily trumps wisdom. But sadly, I suppose one shouldn't be surprized that Christians can hate so much when their own vision of ecclesial practice isn't replicated by everyone else.
My instinct is that Jesus would always have seen the people first and foremost, and the canon law somewhere a little further down the list. Perhaps he may not have agreed with a Samaritan participating in a synagogue ceremony - who knows? The rebuke of Christ for the sincerely unwise, I imagine, would be a loving and kind form of correction. But I'm quite sure he would've found something radical, challenging and expressive of his love for the Samaritan and his disgust at the Samaritan's enemies, in response to any angry narrow-minded finger-pointing by Jewish religious officials.
With reference to the reading done in Arabic. It would be only right, of course, to have had the English translation on hand, too. But even without that I feel like saying, facetiously, well, that's one way to know what your average non-churchgoer feels like every time they go to a service. Probably many ordinary churchgoers, for that matter! We may do our schtick in English, but for more people than we realize it's about as comprehensible as if it were in a foreign language!
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Well yes, I'm not condoning the reactions I've seen online nor the stick that the Provost has been receiving, to the extent that it seems the police have had to get involved ...
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
What bothers me most is the kind of shoot-first, ask questions later tone of some of the comments I've seen online.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
A church is a gathered community. And what’s appropriate in the context of one community might not be for another. As a few people have pointed out, none of us were at the service. None of first hand knowledge of the inner workings of that cathedral. Just what we’ve read. And, on that basis, I’m done here.
This is a whole new level of faux indignation, as if nobody can talk or have an opinion about a church service they've not attended. Nonsense.
Yes, we only know what we read, but it is the context of what we read from those who ran the event that I am objecting to.
Fair enough to disagree with what I'm saying, quite another thing to say I have no right to take a view.
quote:
J used the Remembrance Day example because, as people’s views of Muslims have become more negative, attitudes to them participating have changed. Sadly. The presence of the local Rabbi / Sikh Granthi pass without comment.
Thousands of Sikhs, Jews and others fought and died in the wars, it is entirely appropriate to include them in a civil remembrance service. If only all civil remembrance services we that inclusive.
But that's a completely different thing to an Anglican liturgical service marking a feast day. How is that even vaguely the same?
I'm just saying that as I wasn't there and have no first hand knowledge or the means of getting it, I've decided to stay out of it. You're free to disagree with that and comment all you like. What was that about faux indignation again?!
And you're wilfully misunderstanding my comment. People of all faiths fought and died in the wars and should be represented at the service. But where I live, only one faith leader gets negative comments.
If I was more cynical, I'd wonder if some people's reactions had more to do with the person praying than the prayer.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
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kingsfold
Shipmate
# 1726
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Posted
I suppose it was too much to hope that this might fall under the SoF radar....
quote:
posted by fletcher Christian:
I don't think we have anyone who was actually there commenting on this thread, unless I missed it.
You called? I am a member of St Mary's Episcopal Cathedral, Glasgow and have been for a number of years. I was at this Epiphany service. (Church & work prevented me chipping in sooner)
To clear up a few factual details:
The student who chanted/recited from the Qu'ran was a young lady and she was accompanied by members of her community.
The recitation was indeed in Arabic, with the English translation in the service bulletin. This is our usual practice: if the choir sings a Latin setting of the mass or anthems in Latin, Russian, Icelandic, German, French (all of which happen on a pretty regular basis) or indeed any other language, translations are provided.
quote:
posted by Baptist Train Fan:
I would be most uncomfortable if the impression was given, in a Christian service, that the Qu'ran should be reckoned as equally spiritually authoritative as the Bible.
On the other hand, if it was introduced along the lines of "This story is also found in the Muslim tradition and this is how they view it", IMO that would be rather different.
My italics, but this is how it was. Definitely no suggestion that the Qu'ran should be reckoned authoritative. I think that, as a congregation, we get that Muslims don't view the divinity of Christ as we do: it doesn't alter our belief in His divinity or change the fact that it's what we proclaim. Nor does the difference prevent us offering and receiving hospitality from our Muslim neighbours. And at this service, we proclaimed the divinity of Christ and preached God's love.
This is not something new to us: we've had recitations from the Qu'ran over the Christmas/Epiphany season before. The Bishop was present on one of these occasions. It's never caused this sort of shit-storm before, and from what I've heard from my fellow congregants, we're really at a bit of a loss to understand why it's been an issue this time.
Anselmina had it right:
quote:
It's not a new alternative to Christianity, or an attempt to amalgamate all faiths into one. It's an attempt to show that even religious human beings - well, some anyway - are capable of recognizing the image of God in each other and practicing love of neighbour.
You may disagree with the way my congregation and community do things. There are those who do, and that's absolutely fine. Good disagreement is a thing, and it's OK. Hate (which we have experienced this week) is not.
[ 16. January 2017, 16:04: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
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I came to Jesus and I found in him my star, my sun.
And in that light of life I'll walk 'til travelling days are done
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kingsfold
Shipmate
# 1726
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Posted
Bloody coding. Please could some passing host fix previous post for me. Taeverso.
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I came to Jesus and I found in him my star, my sun.
And in that light of life I'll walk 'til travelling days are done
Posts: 4473 | From: land of the wee midgie | Registered: Nov 2001
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by kingsfold:
Bloody coding. Please could some passing host fix previous post for me. Taeverso.
Thank you for posting. As I was passing and it's either this or a very big spreadsheet ...
Tubbs
[ 16. January 2017, 16:08: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by kingsfold:
we're really at a bit of a loss to understand why it's been an issue this time.
1/ Brexit
2/ A certain bishop hasn't been in the news for a bit.
It's almost certainly nothing to do with you or your congregation. Please carry on as you were...
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Well, yes - those awful Scots, most of whom actually want to stay part of the EU, even though Europe is mostly made up of People Not Like Us! Why, some of the People Not Like Us are brown, and speak Arabic, and believe in another religion!
It simply Will Not Do. How unlike the Home Life Of Our Own Dear Queen - and how thankful we must be to God that she is not the Head of those wretched Piskies.
The irony here, of course, is that +Nazir-Ali hails from what is now Pakistan....
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Tubbs:
quote:
If I was more cynical, I'd wonder if some people's reactions had more to do with the person praying than the prayer.
Well, quite. I wouldn't have done it myself but lots of things happen in Anglican churches that I wouldn't have done myself, carried out by people of goodwill, doing the best they could according to their consciences. On my list of stuff to get indignant about this comes about 574th.
Frankly it's nowhere near as contemptible as Westminster Abbey flying the flag at half-mast to note the death of the persecutor of the church, the late King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia. I don't recall +Michael getting indignant about that, although if I missed it I will accept the correction.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
Gamaliel, I know you don't in any way represent the 'hate' contingent. You make some good points which really help the discussion, in my opinion.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
The irony here, of course, is that +Nazir-Ali hails from what is now Pakistan....
And HMQ is, of course, descended from a German family ...
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
Three questions remains to be answered: why did the reader go beyond the text as originally given (which was translated in the service book)?
Was it a mistake or an intentional act?
Was the translation into English omitted deliberately or by mistake (if the original intention was the full passage)?
When these 3 are answered, then then we may know more - but may need to enquire more.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by kingsfold:
The recitation was indeed in Arabic, with the English translation in the service bulletin. This is our usual practice: if the choir sings a Latin setting of the mass or anthems in Latin, Russian, Icelandic, German, French (all of which happen on a pretty regular basis) or indeed any other language, translations are provided.
Thanks, kingsfold. This is also our practice when the choir sings in foreign (Latin and Spanish are our most common foreign tongues, although others appear. Don't think they've ever sung in Icelandic, though.) It is our usual practice for anthems in English, too: a lot of choral settings are rich with repetition and multi-part harmonies that tend to obscure the actual language.
Readings seem a little different to me. The only time we've read a lesson in a foreign language would be the Gospel at Pentecost, where we have sometimes done the simultaneous reading in lots of different languages thing. Even then, the Gospel in English has been delivered over the microphone so that it was audible over the background of the languages most people don't speak.
Which brings me to
quote:
"This story is also found in the Muslim tradition and this is how they view it"
followed by a recitation in a language that probably none of the Christians there speak. Which is what confuses me. It doesn't really communicate, does it? If you're going to have one of your Muslim neighbours tell you how they view the virgin birth, having her chant it in Arabic doesn't actually communicate anything.
So I'm a bit confused about what it was for.
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Mad Cat
Shipmate
# 9104
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Three questions remains to be answered: why did the reader go beyond the text as originally given (which was translated in the service book)?
Was it a mistake or an intentional act?
Was the translation into English omitted deliberately or by mistake (if the original intention was the full passage)?
When these 3 are answered, then then we may know more - but may need to enquire more.
Are you serious?
Do you think so little of people that you imagine this would be something they would do??
I feel bad for you.
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Weird and sweary.
Posts: 1844 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2005
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
Just chipping in to add my support for kingsfold and her church. Two communities of devout people, confident in their own faith teachings, conducted themselves with generosity and dignity. I am deeply impressed.
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Rather than get himself in a state about readings from the Koran, how about Nazir-Ali start a campaign to stop readings about dinosaurs and velveteen rabbits being included in weddings?
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I'm beginning to think some of you have never, ever watched a movie with subtitles.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Rather than get himself in a state about readings from the Koran, how about Nazir-Ali start a campaign to stop readings about dinosaurs and velveteen rabbits being included in weddings?
Now that I could get behind, along with banning sentimental homemade vows that belong rather inside a Valentine's card.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
And home-made doggerel, badly read, at funerals (together with the ghastly "I have only gone to next room" thing).
As it happens, I frequently use poems or other meditations in services, with the aim of reinforcing or perhaps providing a different perspective to the theme in hand. These are usually Christian but may be secular - although I've never used a Scripture from a different religious tradition.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
What? No Old Testament reading?
![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Readings seem a little different to me. The only time we've read a lesson in a foreign language would be the Gospel at Pentecost, where we have sometimes done the simultaneous reading in lots of different languages thing. Even then, the Gospel in English has been delivered over the microphone so that it was audible over the background of the languages most people don't speak.
FWIW my parents' stratospherically High Anglican church had a community of Iranian Christian asylum seekers, and for a while used to have an extra Gospel reading in Farsi.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Three questions remains to be answered: why did the reader go beyond the text as originally given (which was translated in the service book)?
Was it a mistake or an intentional act?
Was the translation into English omitted deliberately or by mistake (if the original intention was the full passage)?
When these 3 are answered, then then we may know more - but may need to enquire more.
Are you serious?
Do you think so little of people that you imagine this would be something they would do??
I feel bad for you.
I am serious, yes.
It's nothing to do with thinking little of people - it's actually the reverse: seeking to find out what's going on which leads them to behave/respond/react/in the way they do.
People do all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons. It might be an accident or by design or but there is still (generally) a purpose behind it. Since the event has caused a lot of pain for a lot of people it might be helpful for some of those people to understand why the reader read further than the translated passage.
I don't have an axe to grind either way - I am actually interested to hear why she thought it appropriate or necessary to read the verses she did.
None of my business of course but it might pour oil on other troubled waters.
[ 17. January 2017, 17:09: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Mad Cat
Shipmate
# 9104
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Posted
AIUA, the translated passage in the pew sheet, (and, I imagine, the passage agreed on in advance) stopped short of the contentious verses, so I'm imagining the reader continued by accident (as I have, at evensong, one time, when I got the verse numbers a bit mixed up).
Imagine how mortified she must feel. Then remind yourself how hard it is to do this stuff, and how courageous you have to be to even have a go.
The CofE cowards making judgments in the press can fuck the fuck off. And I still feel bad for you.
[ 17. January 2017, 19:27: Message edited by: Mad Cat ]
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Weird and sweary.
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
FWIW my parents' stratospherically High Anglican church had a community of Iranian Christian asylum seekers, and for a while used to have an extra Gospel reading in Farsi.
Nothing at all wrong with that - indeed much to be encouraged just as there are Chinese Anglican churches here where the entire service is in Mandarin. What is wrong is to have a reading which denies the deity of Christ as a part of the Eucharist.
I'd go further and say that those setting the liturgy for any interfaith service (and this was not one) ought take particular care to avoid a passage that was offensive to other participants. So the Beatitudes would be excellent, John 1 totally wrong.
[ 17. January 2017, 20:03: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
I think it's stupid in the first place to include readings in the Mass which are not from the Bible.
It's doubly stupid when you are celebrating a feast which draws attention to manifestations of the divinity of Christ.
But Bishop Nazir-Ali seems to be in denial of the fact that he is serving in a communion where both of those things are generally seen as OK. Given the courage of his convictions, he should pack up for an institution which proclaims the Gospel in which he believes, because the Latitudinarians have won in his own and there's no rolling *that* back.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
FWIW my parents' stratospherically High Anglican church had a community of Iranian Christian asylum seekers, and for a while used to have an extra Gospel reading in Farsi.
ie. a language spoken by a number of the congregants, and a perfectly appropriate thing to do (I assume it was the same Gospel reading).
We had a wedding at our place recently where most of the service was in both English and Spanish (the bride, groom, and groom's family all spoke English, but many of the bride's family spoke only Spanish. So we include them as much as we reasonably can.
Again, nothing wrong with that.
The issue isn't English as some kind of magic language, it's a question of whether the people you are talking to can understand what you're saying. And if you object to having readings from the Bible in Latin, I think you also ought to object to having readings from the Qur'an in Arabic.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
And if you object to having readings from the Bible in Latin, I think you also ought to object to having readings from the Qur'an in Arabic.
As I understand it, it is more important for Muslims for the Qur'an be read in its original Arabic than it is for Christians to have the Bible read in its original... Latin ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Absolutely. Should be Aramaic, Hebrew and Chaldean. We'd all understand those.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
AIUA, the translated passage in the pew sheet, (and, I imagine, the passage agreed on in advance) stopped short of the contentious verses, so I'm imagining the reader continued by accident (as I have, at evensong, one time, when I got the verse numbers a bit mixed up).
Imagine how mortified she must feel. Then remind yourself how hard it is to do this stuff, and how courageous you have to be to even have a go.
The CofE cowards making judgments in the press can fuck the fuck off. And I still feel bad for you.
Thanks for your reply.
I agree - it's very hard to stand up and read in this kind of context.I am not decrying that. I don't find reading things publicly that easy either - poor eyesight means I flick over words, even lines. A jumbled accent (I'm not exactly RP)means I trash words. I much prefer to talk without reading.
I notice you use "imagine" quite a lot in your response. It suggests a level of guesswork about the passage agreed in advance ... continued by accident ....how mortified she must feel.
The point is that we just don't know unless there is a clear and equivocal statement from the parties involved which clarifies how intent relates to delivery. The longer it goes on without such a clear statement, the more the media storm (whether we like it or not) will continue to rage.
Neither side is helping. The insulting e mails to complain (having said response is everyone's right to something said in a public context), alongside Kelvin Holdsworth's silence on the matter.
It doesn't help when the public statement we have had says little more than "because some people have been nasty, we're not saying much at all." We still haven't heard from the reader either directly or through the Cathedral PR machine.
If - and it's a massive if - the reading was continued to make some kind of statement then the parties involved should stand up and be counted.
If Kelvin was aware that the reading would continue, then I'd suggest he has a number of issues to address, not least the fact that the service sheet didn't include a translation of the lot. Why might that be? Mistake, omission or choice?
If it's all a mistake then say so - and regret the offence caused to Christians to hear the Divinity of Christ traduced in this way. It's a pretty foundational issue in the genuine faith understanding of many. No one has yet admitted to either. People read a lot into silence.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
We still haven't heard from the reader either directly or through the Cathedral PR machine.
Considering the hate-filled response from apparently aggressive people to her participation in the service, protecting the woman who read would be the right thing to do. Pouring oil on troubled waters, rather than aggravating a situation where, according to the police, there is already enough to be concerned about for further investigation would perhaps be a better way forward. It's hard to see what would be helped by exposing her further to that kind of violence.
It's to be understood that outraged Christians - and others unhappy with what's happened - want justification, or redress or whatever species of punishment, sorry, 'appropriate discipline' applied to the 'guilty' parties. But I don't think that should include the student who did the reading.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
...the ghastly "I have only gone to next room" thing).
Please, Lord, *don't* let the next life take place in that room we keep all the junk in, but we're always planning to empty out, so we can maybe put a bed in and use it as a guest room, or a desk for home office....
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
We still haven't heard from the reader either directly or through the Cathedral PR machine.
But I don't think that should include the student who did the reading.
I agree with you up to a point. Certainly any kind of abuse and all calls to punish, are wrong. But how do we get any kind of grasp of what happened and why if we don't ask the questions?
It is beginning to appear as if considered questions and debate are being repressed. Kelvin has referenced his sexuality and the attacks he's had. We are not on the point.
If it was an error then make it clear. If it was a deliberate act then say so - and perhaps explain?
In the event that it might - just - have been a considered act then whoever's decision it was needs to come clean and not hide behind anything or anyone.
[ 18. January 2017, 11:49: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Hmm. If it was a genuine mistake, let that be admitted - we are all (Christians and Muslims alike) a miserable company of poor, perishing sinners.
OTOH, if it was deliberate, what ExclamationMark said.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
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Posted
I have no idea why this point hasn't been made before, and apologise if it has.
However, it appears to have escaped people's notice that we are talking specifically about the feast of the epiphany, which celebrates Christ as God's self-revelation to the gentiles. The magi were astrologers, which is about as far outside the Jewish fold, which I am projecting forward in time to become the Judeo-Christian fold, as can be imagined.
In this context, a monotheist who accepts Christ as a prophet and the Jewish scriptures on a similar basis to the Christian understanding next to them seems to me to be a very small stretch, if one at all. Astrologers looking to pay homage to a king seem to me to be far further from the Christian "mark" than Muslims giving a reading about a prophet whom they revere as such, prophesying about a God whom, to my mind, there is no serious doubt is the Jewish Ha Shem.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
In this context, a monotheist who accepts Christ as a prophet and the Jewish scriptures on a similar basis to the Christian understanding next to them seems to me to be a very small stretch, if one at all. Astrologers looking to pay homage to a king seem to me to be far further from the Christian "mark" than Muslims giving a reading about a prophet whom they revere as such, prophesying about a God whom, to my mind, there is no serious doubt is the Jewish Ha Shem.
Well - yes, to an extent.
But that extent only works if one is forced into a particular context, in this case a Eucharistic service for the feast of the Epiphany.
So we might say "OK, this is Epiphany, so we can legitimately invite Jews, Muslims, Zooastrians.. because they're part of this story.." but that seems to ignore the fact that these invited guests are being asked to be bit-players in an act of Christian worship.
I rather hope that it is true that the student read more than they were intended. Because that act rather subverted and blew the lid on the idea that one could have members of another faith parachuted into an act of Christian worship with no consequence.
Good on her.
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arse
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
In this context, a monotheist who accepts Christ as a prophet and the Jewish scriptures on a similar basis to the Christian understanding next to them seems to me to be a very small stretch, if one at all. Astrologers looking to pay homage to a king seem to me to be far further from the Christian "mark" than Muslims giving a reading about a prophet whom they revere as such, prophesying about a God whom, to my mind, there is no serious doubt is the Jewish Ha Shem.
Well - yes, to an extent.
But that extent only works if one is forced into a particular context, in this case a Eucharistic service for the feast of the Epiphany.
So we might say "OK, this is Epiphany, so we can legitimately invite Jews, Muslims, Zooastrians.. because they're part of this story.." but that seems to ignore the fact that these invited guests are being asked to be bit-players in an act of Christian worship.
I rather hope that it is true that the student read more than they were intended. Because that act rather subverted and blew the lid on the idea that one could have members of another faith parachuted into an act of Christian worship with no consequence.
Good on her.
If it is true that she read more than intended as an intentional act, then perhaps she needs to front up a bit more: the cathedral is taking the flak for her as it stands. If it's an honest mistake well then "lessons have been learned."
As yet we don't know either way but the longer it goes on without any further clarity, the more murkier it looks. It brings honour to no one.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
If it is true that she read more than intended as an intentional act, then perhaps she needs to front up a bit more: the cathedral is taking the flak for her as it stands. If it's an honest mistake well then "lessons have been learned."
I disagree with this. She was asked to perform in an act of Christian worship (which in-and-of-itself is an act of saying Christianity is superior to other religions). If she used that opportunity to subtly make it clear that her own profession as at odds with the whole basis of the service (by reading a few extra lines from the Koran), than I think this act of non-violent resistance to the religious powers-that-be is hilarious and should be applauded.
If it was just a mistake, then that's a bit of a let down in comparison.
She doesn't, in my view, need to explain anything. She's a Muslim, it would be pretty bloody odd if she didn't believe those extra lines.
Not all Muslims would have done it - but then not all Christians would have been so stupid as to ask a Muslim to read from their holy book in an act of Christian worship. I can think of many Christians would who have applauded this act of resistance if the boot had been on the other foot.
quote:
As yet we don't know either way but the longer it goes on without any further clarity, the more murkier it looks. It brings honour to no one.
I dunno, I don't think it is murky, I just think it is naive and stupid.
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arse
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Oh for fuck's sake. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Oh no, someone disagrees with the Fount of All Anglican Reasonableness.
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arse
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
Does anyone seriously believe any part of the SEC, nevermind Glasgow Cathedral, has a "PR machine"? Everything I've seen indicates the "PR machine" consists of Fr Kelvin. And that's it. The SEC has the resources and personnel equivalent to perhaps a small CofE diocese.
If find the insinuations of dubious goings on and sinister cover ups to be utterly bizarre. They say far more about the people making them than anything else.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Does anyone seriously believe any part of the SEC, nevermind Glasgow Cathedral, has a "PR machine"? Everything I've seen indicates the "PR machine" consists of Fr Kelvin. And that's it. The SEC has the resources and personnel equivalent to perhaps a small CofE diocese.
If find the insinuations of dubious goings on and sinister cover ups to be utterly bizarre. They say far more about the people making them than anything else.
Rumour and gossip thrive on silence and secrecy.
Yes, apologies for the "PR machine" phrase - not the best one to use. But surely someone, somewhere can help out?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
If it is true that she read more than intended as an intentional act, then perhaps she needs to front up a bit more: the cathedral is taking the flak for her as it stands. If it's an honest mistake well then "lessons have been learned."
I disagree with this. She was asked to perform in an act of Christian worship (which in-and-of-itself is an act of saying Christianity is superior to other religions). If she used that opportunity to subtly make it clear that her own profession as at odds with the whole basis of the service (by reading a few extra lines from the Koran), than I think this act of non-violent resistance to the religious powers-that-be is hilarious and should be applauded.
If it was just a mistake, then that's a bit of a let down in comparison.
She doesn't, in my view, need to explain anything. She's a Muslim, it would be pretty bloody odd if she didn't believe those extra lines.
Not all Muslims would have done it - but then not all Christians would have been so stupid as to ask a Muslim to read from their holy book in an act of Christian worship. I can think of many Christians would who have applauded this act of resistance if the boot had been on the other foot.
quote:
As yet we don't know either way but the longer it goes on without any further clarity, the more murkier it looks. It brings honour to no one.
I dunno, I don't think it is murky, I just think it is naive and stupid.
I'm sure no one would argue with the fact that Muslims know what they believe.
I'm not no sure we'd find the same kind of response if the boot were on the other foot. That is, if the opportunity were ever granted. others will know different but in interfaith work I have never come across a Christian Minister being invited to read from a bible in a mosque - and to talk about Jesus being the only way to heaven.
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
I'm sure no one would argue with the fact that Muslims know what they believe.
Is there not some kind of obligation (or perhaps that is the wrong word) on Muslims to declare their belief in the uniqueness of Allah in public? Even if there isn't, then it is surely not beyond the bounds of imagination to think that a sincere Muslim might decide in good conscience that uttering a single phrase declaring the primacy of their religion in a Cathedral is honoring Allah.
quote:
I'm not no sure we'd find the same kind of response if the boot were on the other foot. That is, if the opportunity were ever granted. others will know different but in interfaith work I have never come across a Christian Minister being invited to read from a bible in a mosque - and to talk about Jesus being the only way to heaven.
But that's not really what happened here.
It is quite hard to imagine the reverse of this situation happening, in my view. We're imagining a Friday afternoon prayer in a Mosque. After the traditional prayers (which, presumably, the Christian Minister doesn't get involved with), there is a reading from the Koran.*
The preacher stands up and declares some truths about Islam. Then in the middle of talking about Jesus and what the Koran says about him, he gestures to his left and invites the local vicar up. He arrives with a bible and begins to read a carefully chosen verse which is no in any way offensive to Muslims and then sits down.
Please tell me if this has ever happened to you or anyone you know, because I find it a highly unlikely scenario.
*just to say that I've not been to a service in a mosque so I don't know the order of how they work. But I think the sermon is given after the prayers.
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arse
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Please tell me if this has ever happened to you or anyone you know, because I find it a highly unlikely scenario.
Not experienced it myself nor have I ever heard of it. I've eaten in the home of Muslim friends with no problems and they, mine.
I'd be intrigued to know what the reaction might be to a reading of "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except by me" by a Christian in a mosque setting.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Mad Cat
Shipmate
# 9104
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Does anyone seriously believe any part of the SEC, nevermind Glasgow Cathedral, has a "PR machine"? Everything I've seen indicates the "PR machine" consists of Fr Kelvin. And that's it. The SEC has the resources and personnel equivalent to perhaps a small CofE diocese.
Fr. Kelvin is a long time blogger and not averse to the spotlight. This time, however, perhaps because Epiphany falls during a slow news week, something that would usually never have made it beyond the end of Great Western Road has hit the national press.
I'm a former member of St Mary's, and have friends who still worship there. There is a genuine and long-standing commitment in the congo to inter-faith dialogue. Whether this reading was the right or the wrong move, these Christians are genuine and prayerful in their work for relationship with other faiths. It's important work, and those who sit in judgement are not advancing the possibilities.
quote:
If find the insinuations of dubious goings on and sinister cover ups to be utterly bizarre. They say far more about the people making them than anything else.
Indeed.
[ 19. January 2017, 12:27: Message edited by: Mad Cat ]
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Weird and sweary.
Posts: 1844 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2005
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Oh for fuck's sake.
Oh no, someone disagrees with the Fount of All Anglican Reasonableness.
Yes, that's right. I'm really annoyed because someone doesn't agree with me. It happens so rarely, don't you know.
Dickhead.
I'm annoyed because of the whinging preciousness of some of the disagreement. Obviously one man on a cross isn't enough for the sins of the world; let's crucify a few more, just to make sure nothing 'bad' really happened at the service. Just in case. Wouldn't want to make the mistake of thinking the best of a situation when there are opportunities to chastise and punish - sorry, appropriately discipline someone, somewhere, somehow. You know, the kind of thing the Church does best.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
It's hell.
My arse may be kicked.
But this thread, and some of its accompanying pontificating nonsense, is enough to make me break out into a cold sweat.
Inhospitable.
"If they would never do it, why should we?"
Grindingly, boringly partisan.
It has brought out ALL the very worst that is my misfortune to read this afternoon.
And what is all this about a communion service needing to be ring-fenced and no doubt with attendant stewards in place to ensure only the true faith is allowed within sacred portals???
Unless and until christians can liberate communion services and positively throw those of other and no faiths into the Very Middle Of Them..........we are stuffed.
We may well end up in a place called heaven.
But i am far from believing that Christ inhabits that place.
[ 19. January 2017, 13:14: Message edited by: Ethne Alba ]
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
I'm annoyed because of the whinging preciousness of some of the disagreement. Obviously one man on a cross isn't enough for the sins of the world; let's crucify a few more, just to make sure nothing 'bad' really happened at the service.
Oh stop it already with your self-righteousness.
I think it is inappropriate to have a Muslim reading the Koran in the middle of a Eucharist.
I've not said anything to the people involved directly (and wouldn't).
If you don't agree then fine. Fill your boots with custard and stop around the naive if that's what rocks your boat.
But I still retain the right to think that a Muslim reading from the Koran is inappropriate for a Eucharistic service. Deal.
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arse
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