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» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Hell   » Michael Nazir-Ali: go stick your head back whence it came (Page 3)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Michael Nazir-Ali: go stick your head back whence it came
mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:

And what is all this about a communion service needing to be ring-fenced and no doubt with attendant stewards in place to ensure only the true faith is allowed within sacred portals???

It is an act of Christian worship declaring that Jesus is Lord. Why would you think it appropriate to have someone (even a friend) in the middle of that service declare that Jesus isn't Lord?

I have had many meals with Muslims and have even had occasion when I've prayed with them. I am honoured to call some Muslims friends.

This is nothing about hospitality and fundamentally something important about what we think we're doing in the Eucharist.

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Oh for fuck's sake. [Roll Eyes]

Oh no, someone disagrees with the Fount of All Anglican Reasonableness.
Yes, that's right. I'm really annoyed because someone doesn't agree with me. It happens so rarely, don't you know.

Dickhead.

I'm annoyed because of the whinging preciousness of some of the disagreement. Obviously one man on a cross isn't enough for the sins of the world; let's crucify a few more, just to make sure nothing 'bad' really happened at the service. Just in case. Wouldn't want to make the mistake of thinking the best of a situation when there are opportunities to chastise and punish - sorry, appropriately discipline someone, somewhere, somehow. You know, the kind of thing the Church does best.

Language Timothy!
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Ethne Alba
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I am absolutely convinced that there is neither certainty nor consensus concerning what happens in a communion service.
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mr cheesy
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Right, yeah, we're uncertain about whether Jesus is Lord. Of course we are.

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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Ethne Alba
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Much less..." what we think we are doing in it".....
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mr cheesy
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Why not just invite everyone in and have them all tell us what they think about the fundamental points of our faith? Why have a service at all, instead lets all nod knowingly at the competing visions of people shouting at Speaker's Corner?

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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Ethne Alba
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Because that would be silly?


Nope.
My point (as you perfectly well know) is that across Christendom, we don't have a consensus about what constitutes "correct worship"; not in an ordinary act of public worship and certainly not in a mass/ eucharist/ communion service.

Inviting you (specifically but not exclusively) to pause and to stand back and consider an everso slightly more understanding approach is......yeah....it is, isn't it?

Silly.

Oh well.
You in your small corner...and i in mine.
(i'm sure that you remember that one)

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:

Inviting you (specifically but not exclusively) to pause and to stand back and consider an everso slightly more understanding approach is......yeah....it is, isn't it?

You must have noticed that mr cheesy basically gets high on moral outrage. What you're proposing is like trying to pry the bottle away from an alcoholic.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Ethne Alba
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Well yes!


Tbh, the only reason i even bothered to venture into such choppy waters....was because i could sense that even my patience was at an end....and i felt like saying so...

And....
.... i wonder, how many people who have no faith what so ever....occasionally tumble across Outraged Christians and think,
"Oh yes, I want to be JUST like Them!"....?

Yeah right. None.

Yawn, need to walk a dog, thanks though....

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Tubbs

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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:

Inviting you (specifically but not exclusively) to pause and to stand back and consider an everso slightly more understanding approach is......yeah....it is, isn't it?

You must have noticed that mr cheesy basically gets high on moral outrage. What you're proposing is like trying to pry the bottle away from an alcoholic.
Has he considered a career writing editorials for the Daily Mail?


Tubbs

--------------------
"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

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Bishops Finger
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What makes you think he doesn't already?

[Paranoid]

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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Anselmina
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Language Timothy!

Well, being such a 'self-righteous' person I obviously have to really force myself to type words like 'fuck' and 'dickhead'. I'll show this to some people who actually know me and give them a good laugh!

Mr Cheesy, you're being an ignorant shit-stirrer. Though I'll credit you with genuine intentions to be on the right side of the argument. But I'll bow to your ability to recognize self-righteousness when you see it. I mean, you must look into the mirror some time, mustn't you?

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Language Timothy!

Well, being such a 'self-righteous' person I obviously have to really force myself to type words like 'fuck' and 'dickhead'. I'll show this to some people who actually know me and give them a good laugh!

I might laugh if I hear you use them in the pulpit!
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Honest Ron Bacardi
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OOOh! Handbags at dawn!

Self-righteous: - Having or characterized by a certainty, especially an unfounded one, that one is totally correct or morally superior: (OED, emphasis mine)

Plenty of other definitions, but they all hinge on that one thing, that blazing certainty that I am right because.

Thing is, there are certainly posters here who have done that, but Mr. Cheesy ain't one of them. He stated his reasons right up front, within his first few posts, and stuck to them.

So here's a test for you. Review your own posts. Do they explain your criteria? No? Then welcome to the hall of mirrors.

All of this is completely independent of which side you are on. It's perfectly possible to be 100% right and a complete arse with it.

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Anglo-Cthulhic

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:

Mr Cheesy, you're being an ignorant shit-stirrer. Though I'll credit you with genuine intentions to be on the right side of the argument.

1. I am not ignorant.
2. I am not a shit-stirrer

and 3. It is clear that I disagree with your assessment of this, but that doesn't mean that I'm stirring up trouble for the sake of it.

I happen to actually believe the crap we say during the Eucharist. If you don't, that's your problem - but then don't be surprised when people call you out.

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Arethosemyfeet
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Oh, right. Just because someone doesn't agree with your current knee spasm that must mean they're just pretending to be a Christian. Got it.
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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Oh, right. Just because someone doesn't agree with your current knee spasm that must mean they're just pretending to be a Christian. Got it.

Riight, yeah, that's exactly what's happening.

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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SvitlanaV2
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The mainstream Protestant churches in Britain are pluralistic. Their liturgies serve to reinforce a sense of unity, but not to prevent 'heresies'. These churches often see themselves as a local Christian presence that works for community cohesion, not as institutions for promoting Christian orthodoxy against the claims of other religions.

The bishop getting cross about this particular event won't make much difference, but I'm curious about the abusive backlash from ordinary people. I suspect that many of the online threats are from non-churchgoers who have no particular interest in the Eucharist, but are simply Islamophobic. I have no proof of this, of course.

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Penny S
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This issue is being discussed on the BBC R4 programme "Sunday" at the moment. Sunday
One of the Queen's chaplains has resigned over the issue.
An imam has praised Christians for feeling strong enough to open the door to others.

[ 22. January 2017, 06:36: Message edited by: Penny S ]

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:

Thing is, there are certainly posters here who have done that, but Mr. Cheesy ain't one of them. He stated his reasons right up front, within his first few posts, and stuck to them.

So here's a test for you. Review your own posts. Do they explain your criteria? No? Then welcome to the hall of mirrors.

Well, my feeling that mr cheesy is a self-righteous nitiwit arises because:

a. To take offence on behalf of a community of which you aren't a member, on the basis of an interpretation not shared by any of the participants of a service which you didn't attend - really is taking 'offenderati' to a new level;

b. He goes from 'I think this act is inappropriate at a Eucharist' to 'therefore you don't believe in the Eucharist';

c. Past form.

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:

Thing is, there are certainly posters here who have done that, but Mr. Cheesy ain't one of them. He stated his reasons right up front, within his first few posts, and stuck to them.

So here's a test for you. Review your own posts. Do they explain your criteria? No? Then welcome to the hall of mirrors.

Well, my feeling that mr cheesy is a self-righteous nitiwit arises because:

a. To take offence on behalf of a community of which you aren't a member, on the basis of an interpretation not shared by any of the participants of a service which you didn't attend - really is taking 'offenderati' to a new level;

b. He goes from 'I think this act is inappropriate at a Eucharist' to 'therefore you don't believe in the Eucharist';

c. Past form.

So no one is entitles to comment or express an opinion on anything they are not directly involved in?
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Ricardus
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It's more that if you weren't there, and your interpretation of what the service really implies doesn't tally with what the people who were there say, then the chance that you are Making Shit Up is quite high.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Honest Ron Bacardi
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:

Thing is, there are certainly posters here who have done that, but Mr. Cheesy ain't one of them. He stated his reasons right up front, within his first few posts, and stuck to them.

So here's a test for you. Review your own posts. Do they explain your criteria? No? Then welcome to the hall of mirrors.

Well, my feeling that mr cheesy is a self-righteous nitiwit arises because:

a. To take offence on behalf of a community of which you aren't a member, on the basis of an interpretation not shared by any of the participants of a service which you didn't attend - really is taking 'offenderati' to a new level;

b. He goes from 'I think this act is inappropriate at a Eucharist' to 'therefore you don't believe in the Eucharist';

c. Past form.

Whether Mr. C. is a nitwit was beyond the remit of my post. None of those things would make Mr.C. self-righteous though, which is my distinctly limited point, with reasons as already given.

(though in passing, according to the Beeb this morning, several of the congregation are reported to have been moved to complain in private letters. But I don't think that was known before it was reported then).

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Anglo-Cthulhic

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
So no one is entitles to comment or express an opinion on anything they are not directly involved in?

Good Lord! This board positively thrives on the uninformed and not-present spouting bollocks, so that the rest of us can all point and laugh.

Carry on, people, carry on.

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Get your arse to Mars

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Whether Mr. C. is a nitwit was beyond the remit of my post. None of those things would make Mr.C. self-righteous though, which is my distinctly limited point, with reasons as already given.

Well, OK. I'm prepared to find other words to describe mr cheesy ... [Razz]

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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ExclamationMark
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Ok everyone cut to the quick. The "extra" verses read in the cathedral - a genuine mistake or a deliberate choice?
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Tubbs

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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Ok everyone cut to the quick. The "extra" verses read in the cathedral - a genuine mistake or a deliberate choice?

Genuine mistake. If you usually read all the verses, it would easy to forget that this time you don't. Particularly if you're nervous.

TBH, I find life is easier and nicer if I assume that crap happens because people are forgetful or thoughtless rather than deliberately unkind or nasty.

Tubbs

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

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Erroneous Monk
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

I'd be intrigued to know what the reaction might be to a reading of "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except by me" by a Christian in a mosque setting.

While it's not the same thing by any means,
I would have been happy to have that passage read at my (Muslim) father's funeral. He died 15 months after I wrote that blog post. There was a Requiem Mass. IN the event, the Gospel reading was Matthew 25: 31-45.

Inter-faith relations are not just an intellectual, theological challenge. They are people's lives. And deaths.

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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.

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Callan
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quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Ok everyone cut to the quick. The "extra" verses read in the cathedral - a genuine mistake or a deliberate choice?

Genuine mistake. If you usually read all the verses, it would easy to forget that this time you don't. Particularly if you're nervous.

TBH, I find life is easier and nicer if I assume that crap happens because people are forgetful or thoughtless rather than deliberately unkind or nasty.

Tubbs

I remember the story of a much loved former churchwarden from my first parish who was reading the Old Testament lesson at a solemn service and forget where he was supposed to stop. Someone had to tap him on the shoulder because he probably would not have stopped until he got to "Even so, come Lord Jesus". Which might have added a few minutes to the running order.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Anselmina
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
[QUOTE]

I happen to actually believe the crap we say during the Eucharist. If you don't, that's your problem - but then don't be surprised when people call you out.

I've made no reference in this thread to what I do or don't believe about the liturgy of the Eucharist; so I would be very surprized indeed if anyone should call me out on it. The word 'crap', by the way, with reference to the Eucharist has never been - and never will be - used by me. If you think that in using it yourself you're somehow representing what you think my view of Communion is, you can save your breath.

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SvitlanaV2
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It would be interesting if a kind of syncretism developed in which British Christianity absorbed some Muslim characteristics (not so likely the other way round) as a result of interfaith work.

In some contexts I really don't think that would be such a surprising thing to see at some point in the future.

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Arethosemyfeet
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I doubt it. All the Christians I know (of) who are involved in inter-faith work with Muslims are thoroughly orthodox. Syncretism is not on the agenda.
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SvitlanaV2
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True, it's not on the 'agenda', AFAIK.

I suppose interfaith contact works differently in different places. Where I live, it's Islam that seems to be the more energetic religion out of the two, and the churches have something to gain by becoming especially attractive to Muslims. The local church hasn't hosted readings from the Qu'ran, but Islamic music has been sung there, with everyone encouraged to join in.

We'll see what happens, of course. I don't know about the Church in Scotland, but the CofE is very broad. Its understanding of 'orthodoxy' could yet have room to expand and include any number of new ideas.

Returning to what happened at this particular service in Scotland, I've just seen on another website that the Qu'ran wasn't actually being read in English. I realise that Arabic is the preferred language, but was a translation provided for non-Arabic speakers in the congregation?

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Baptist Trainfan
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My understanding was that an English translation was provided in the service leaflet, but that the reader continued past that point and included verses (without translation) which denied the deity of Christ.

This was discussed upthread, with some Shipmates suggesting that this was deliberate and others thinking that it was just a simple mistake.

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
We'll see what happens, of course. I don't know about the Church in Scotland, but the CofE is very broad. Its understanding of 'orthodoxy' could yet have room to expand and include any number of new ideas.

I cannot see how even a church with views as broad as the C of E on so many matters (and other churches in the Anglican Communion as well) has room for an opinion that denies the deity of Christ.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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SvitlanaV2
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Gee D

Well, there are clergy who don't even believe in God, so....

More interestingly, it could be argued that the many Anglicans (and other Christians) who don't believe in the virgin birth are beginning to approach Islam's understanding Jesus. At the very least, it makes a rapprochement of some sort easier to imagine.

Baptist Trainfan

Thank you for reminding me of that.

We don't know if this young lady was in the habit of public reading, let alone reading during a religious service. Perhaps not. In any case, it would have been wise and helpful to prepare (or asked the mosque concerned to prepare) a sheet containing the agreed reading, rather than expecting her to read directly from the Qu'ran.

The irony is that without the internet (plus some mischievous tittle-tattle) this error wouldn't haven't been carried around the world, and none of us non-Arabic speakers would have been any the wiser. The Muslim lady and the clergyman would have been saved a great deal of embarrassment.

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
but was a translation provided for non-Arabic speakers in the congregation?

Yes, it was on the order of service, as I understand it.
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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
but was a translation provided for non-Arabic speakers in the congregation?

Yes, it was on the order of service, as I understand it.
We had a couple of members of this congregation posting, who said that they normally had translations in the order of service when the choir sung an anthem in foreign. I've been in lots of churches that do this.

I did not understand whether they often had readings or sermons in foreign languages: that seems to me to be a rather different kettle of fish from singing an anthem in Icelandic during communion.

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Gee D

Well, there are clergy who don't even believe in God, so....

There was that UCC minister but from a post in the last few days she has been defrocked. Who else? Jack Spong's so far in the past as not to count now.

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SvitlanaV2
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Apparently about 2% of CofE clergy don't believe in God (i.e. they believe that God is a 'social construct'), while 16% are agnostic.

Another recent poll suggests that among self-confessed Christians in Britain, both churchgoers and nonchurchgoers, half don't believe that Jesus Christ was the Son God.

Of course, 'Christian' is a word with a range of meanings - which is what makes some kind of rapprochement with Islam possible, I suppose.

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Fr Weber
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I wonder if anyone remembers this goofball who claimed to be both Muslim and Christian...

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SvitlanaV2
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You say she's a goofball, but she's a minister in the mainline Episcopalian church, and her employers seem to be supportive. If it can happen in American Anglicanism, why not in the British version(s)??

Actually, I've heard that the Nation of Islam, a controversial American movement, sees itself as a bridge between Christianity and 'traditional' Islam. It's current leader, Louis Farrakhan, occasionally preaches in churches.

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Baptist Trainfan
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Do you know in what context he does that, and with what message?

(Actually, I have a partial answer from the NoI website: "He has been welcomed in a countless number of churches, sharing pulpits with Christian ministers from a variety of denominations, which has demonstrated the power of the unity of those who believe in the One God". I offer that without comment).

[ 25. January 2017, 16:57: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Stetson
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

Actually, I've heard that the Nation of Islam, a controversial American movement, sees itself as a bridge between Christianity and 'traditional' Islam. It's current leader, Louis Farrakhan, occasionally preaches in churches. [/QB]

The NOI might be a bridge between Christianity and SOME form of Islam. I'm not sure I'd call it traditional Islam though. From their wiki page.

The stuff about Yakub seems especially heterodox. The NOI is roughly comparable to Mormonism in its relation to the theology of the mother faith.

[ 25. January 2017, 17:08: Message edited by: Stetson ]

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chris stiles
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There is some kind of movement constituted of people who consider themselves to be Muslim followers of Jesus (mostly in the Islamic world), who are attempting to combine belief in Christianity with elements of Islamic culture.

I've seen a few articles about it, but it seems that no one really has figures on how prevalent or not it is.

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SvitlanaV2
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Baptist Trainfan

I only know what he does from Youtube videos. The general context seems to be that the NOI does a lot to support and uplift people in struggling communities in Chicago. It's probably through this work that Farrakhan has met quite a few clergymen who are impressed at what his institution has achieved.

The radical social justice and liberationist side of Farrakhan's history seems to appeal to certain types of left-wing mainstream clergy, and they're liberal enough not to be phased by his movement's distinctive theology.

(Regarding the family, the NOI is obviously quite conservative; but so are traditional Muslims, on the whole.)

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Fr Weber
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Nah, she's a goofball. Her bishop wound up inhibiting her.

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SvitlanaV2
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Really? Why is that?

I've read that the mainline American Episcopalians tolerate all sorts of theological diversity and try extremely hard to be inclusive, so she must have made a fatal error somewhere.

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Nah, she's a goofball. Her bishop wound up inhibiting her.

And she has apparently since been defrocked:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Holmes_Redding

I think that was an entirely appropriate response, but I'm not sure I'd call her a "goofball". It sounds like she had a profound spiritual experience and tried to reconcile it with her existing faith. I do think she's wrong, however - you can only be Christian and Muslim if you fudge one or both of them so profoundly as to be unrecognisable.

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Gee D
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# 13815

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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Apparently about 2% of CofE clergy don't believe in God (i.e. they believe that God is a 'social construct'), while 16% are agnostic.

Another recent poll suggests that among self-confessed Christians in Britain, both churchgoers and nonchurchgoers, half don't believe that Jesus Christ was the Son God.

Of course, 'Christian' is a word with a range of meanings - which is what makes some kind of rapprochement with Islam possible, I suppose.

Both very odd sounding polls - I wonder what the methodology was???? Let's assume that the polls have some validity for Britain, I'd be surprised if the results would be replicatd here.

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