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» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Hell   » Whoever is responsible for the inability of the NHS to keep old ladies safe (Page 3)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Whoever is responsible for the inability of the NHS to keep old ladies safe
Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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It would be one thing to say to your friend, "I see that you cannot take care of your mother. Let me help you find resources that will enable you to do so, or resources that can provide the necessary care for your mother."

But what you seem to be saying is, "I see that you cannot take care of your mother. Let me take care of her for you, even though doing so will completely overwhelm me. All you have to do is sit back and watch."

Watch me suffer the effects of being overwhelmed, that is. The mother is not going to receive the care she needs, because not only can you not do it but she apparently doesn't want you doing it. Nor is the friend going to benefit from being relieved of his filial duty.

This is a lose-lose situation for everyone involved.

--------------------
"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

Posts: 10274 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
You must have a different idea about friendship than I do.

I would suggest that in most cases not much is served by putting yourself/someone in a position where they can continue to sin/be sinned against.
Posts: 3818 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
# 440

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Checked where I am. And it’s not All Saints. It’s Hell. Which is better for my purposes.

You ask for advice. You didn’t like the advice you get so you ignore it. Then you moan about the situation you’ve got yourself in and ask for more advice about how to deal with it. And ignore that. Rinse and repeat. Miss Amanda is correct, this is wearying.

The advice you’ve had since this started is pretty consistent. Stop enabling Mummy’s dysfunction and stay out of it. Mummy has decided the house is fine and doesn’t want to pay for care. Leave Mummy too it and see how she gets on. Support her son in leaving mummy too it as well. This will be hard as it goes against both of your basic inclinations. But it may be the only way to make Mummy see sense. If anyone asks, tell them that you’ve both done all you can but she’s refused all advice and help. I doubt anyone will be particularly surprised.

The current situation is toxic and isn’t helpful to anyone. As CK rightly points out, true friendship isn’t just about helping people where they are. It can be about helping them change their current situation into a better one. And sometimes that involves telling them things they’d rather not hear and doing things that don’t seem very kind.

Tubbs

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

Posts: 12640 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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Eh, Tubbs, take your own advice and step away, then. If you're weary of the situation quit reading about it.

Also, when someone asks for advice they are not promising that they will take the advice, just that they'll listen to it politely and think about it for a minute or two. What if someone suggests that Penny set the old biddy on fire?

Penny may find that just setting down the facts is relieving and knows quite well that there is no simple solution.

I find it all interesting.

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Penny may find that just setting down the facts is relieving.

That's what diaries are for.

--------------------
"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

Posts: 10274 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
# 440

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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Penny may find that just setting down the facts is relieving.

That's what diaries are for.
Or blogs.

I know there's no guantee that people take advice when it's offered. But you've got to wonder why someone keeps asking for advice that they've no intention of taking. Particularly when the advice is pretty consistent. So is our job to tell Penny how wonderful she is for taking on such a horrible old bat or just to nod every so often?!

Neither strikes me as helpful or part of the Ship's remit. This is not a personal blog, a conselling service or a substitute for real life help. Maybe Penny could set up a blog for people like you that love this stuff and give everyone else a break

Tubbs

[ 31. May 2017, 19:32: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

--------------------
"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

Posts: 12640 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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I might like to read some diaries.
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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:

Neither strikes me as helpful or part of the Ship's remit. This is not a personal blog, a conselling service or a substitute for real life help. Maybe Penny could set up a blog for people like you that love this stuff and give everyone else a break

Tubbs

What actually is the ship's remit? Is the ship short of bandwidth and other more scintillating threads are being thrown overboard to make room for this one?

Why not tell the gardeners or the recipe collectors or the people who hate certain songs to get a blog and give everyone else a break? None of those threads interest me so I just don't read them. I don't suggest, condescendingly, that "you people who love this stuff," should get a blog, so that I might be spared.

I guess twelve pages of Steve Langdon's faults is still giving you a thrill, though. No complaints there. Must be in the ship's remit.

Twilight
(In case the name by the avatar isn't enough.)

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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Penny may find that just setting down the facts is relieving.

That's what diaries are for.
If these are facts. I have reached the stage with Penny S's accounts that I do not know if the friend exists, let alone the mother. None of us, save Penny S, does.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Gee D--

I've never had any indication nor feeling that Penny is lying or making things up--with this account or any of her regular posts.

FWIW.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17936 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
FWIW.

I hear your sentiment. But you have to know that science weeps at that standard of consideration.
Posts: 15135 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Funny, doesn't look like we're in a lab. [Biased]

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17936 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Funny, doesn't look like we're in a lab.

Oh, sweetie, science doesn't happen in a lab. Science is the systematic improvement of knowledge; it happens in our brains.

Theoretically.

Posts: 15135 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Yes, dear, and that's wonderful--but scientific methods have nothing to do with the conversation.

Now, why don't you go watch a video of "Bill Nye, the Science Guy" or "Mr. Wizard", and let the grownups talk.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17936 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Gee D--

I've never had any indication nor feeling that Penny is lying or making things up--with this account or any of her regular posts.

FWIW.

I'm not saying that she's lying or making things up, just that I don't know what I accept. There has been the repetition to which Miss Amanda refers - the manner in which Penny S is not accepting advice and comes back in a few days with a repeat.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 6701 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Gee D--

IME, that pattern is very common for people dealing with a difficult situation, especially if they're conflicted, and pulled in several directions.

IMHO, Penny has done as much as she can, and it's time to take care of herself and get some rest. AIUI, various professionals have finally taken notice of the situation. So let them take over. Helping someone can be for a while, and doesn't have to mean a massive, long-term commitment.

But I'm not in that situation, and I'm not Penny.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17936 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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Penny S won't change her enabling behaviour until she sees it as such and has a compelling reason to change. We all have different thresholds and I'd have tipped over mine long before Penny looks likely to.

There are no 'right' answers but at the moment Penny is helping no-one, least of all herself.

[Frown] [Votive]

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 12652 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Gee D--

IME, that pattern is very common for people dealing with a difficult situation, especially if they're conflicted, and pulled in several directions.

IMHO, Penny has done as much as she can, and it's time to take care of herself and get some rest. AIUI, various professionals have finally taken notice of the situation. So let them take over. Helping someone can be for a while, and doesn't have to mean a massive, long-term commitment.

But I'm not in that situation, and I'm not Penny.

You may well be right. I'd certainly agree with the sentiments in the last sentence of Boogie's post.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
# 440

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:

Neither strikes me as helpful or part of the Ship's remit. This is not a personal blog, a conselling service or a substitute for real life help. Maybe Penny could set up a blog for people like you that love this stuff and give everyone else a break

Tubbs

What actually is the ship's remit? Is the ship short of bandwidth and other more scintillating threads are being thrown overboard to make room for this one?

Why not tell the gardeners or the recipe collectors or the people who hate certain songs to get a blog and give everyone else a break? None of those threads interest me so I just don't read them. I don't suggest, condescendingly, that "you people who love this stuff," should get a blog, so that I might be spared.

I guess twelve pages of Steve Langdon's faults is still giving you a thrill, though. No complaints there. Must be in the ship's remit.

Twilight
(In case the name by the avatar isn't enough.)

Discussion. With the best will in the world, Penny’s monologues don’t lend themselves to discussion, fascinating as they might be. But as blog posts they’d work brilliantly.

--------------------
"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

Posts: 12640 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Yes, dear, and that's wonderful--but scientific methods have nothing to do with the conversation.

You really are a delightful old moron, to so helpfully point out how readily stupid people like you fling yourselves on logical fallacy and cognitive bias instead of actual reason or facts.¹

Feelings about Penny's authenticity are perhaps interesting to note, but of very little actual value in this conversation. Not that I expect you to recognize what ideas are of actual value. Just trying to help you out.

¹ Note how easily this derails into a Trump/BREXIT thread.

Posts: 15135 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
sabine
Shipmate
# 3861

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Penny hasn't posted about caregiving in a week, so perhaps she is thinking about or figuring ways to enact the advice she's been given.

As someone who spent a decade caring for my parents, I know how hard it was to do the things that friends and strangers think I should have been doing when at the same time my parents were thwarting those very options at every turn. I could have chewed nails at times even though I had the advantage of being a social worker.

Blowing off steam actually made it easier to finally do what had to be done.

And I interpret Penny as blowing off steam. And now folks are blowing off steam about their frustration with Penny.

Since Penny hasn't updated us, I am going to give her the benefit of the doubt.

sabine

Posts: 5843 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

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Hear, hear.

IJ

--------------------
The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 9137 | From: Passing The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
Penny hasn't posted about caregiving in a week, so perhaps she is thinking about or figuring ways to enact the advice she's been given.

She managed to slip it into the "Oops - your Trump presidency" thread a few days ago.

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Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768

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Update. To refer back to the generality referred to in the OP, here's a piece from yesterday's Guardian.

Doctor's Orders

Meanwhile, today there was a meeting with social workers from the two involved authorities, and they've come up with a sort of solution involving a care home for three weeks (self-funded, therefore subsidising those who cannot self fund) and an advocate to assist in a sort of Clerk of Works way. The option of my place was discounted - my foot was definitely down, unless conditions unable to be put in were observed - i.e., she was taken out to activities every day by somebody else.

She was very sharp and on the ball and sweet. No indication of the hate filled face and the shriek of 'No!', and denial of the accusations of my infecting her with foul blankets and a contaminated car which were her reasons for not wanting to come back (and which I counted on). Apparently she later accused me of looking at her with hate, not to staff, but I don't even have the muscles to do it. Possibly not smiling at her. She has also accused me of being controlling and attempting to dominate her. Possibly not knuckling under to be controlled by her.

Anyway, she's off from hospital, where she has been since being close to death the other week, to a care home somewhere in Sarf Lunnon while the house is got livable.

When she relapsed, on my watch, she just said she couldn't breathe as her nose was blocked. fortunately we were on the way to the surgery, where they spotted things I had missed, and whisked her in to oxygen and all sorts of treatment to drain her lungs. I had to pick up her son from the train and find a way to tell him what had happened without being a major blow, and we then had a call asking how quickly we could get there. He thought he was arriving at her death bed, and so did the hospital, who whisked him off to a room with tissues and details of the chaplain and what to do in the case of sudden death. But they've worked wonders.
Nobody would doubt her capacity from the way she presented today.
And the way she has described her place as the same as everyone else's and only needing a vacuuming seems to have been abandoned.
I would think the nurses should perhaps not talk to her as if she were an infant, though. "You'll have your little cheque book to pay with, won't you?" She would not have talked to the children in her play group like that. (It was the tone.) And they wouldn't accept explanations that after she has given consent for the plumber she has denied that she would pay the price suggested, shutting up references to her changing her mind and talking over them.

We shall see.

But not back here.


PS, the person with paranoid delusions referred to in the Ooops thread was not D, and unconnected with D. I have been observing silence on that subject. It just seemed relevant to the subject there. PS.

[ 01. June 2017, 18:43: Message edited by: Penny S ]

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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

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Well, I for one hope that the situation will now improve, especially for you.

Might the care home in Sarf Lunnon possibly be the permanent solution?

IJ

--------------------
The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 9137 | From: Passing The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768

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And appreciation to sabine, Golden Key and Bishop's Finger.
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271

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Glad something is in place Penny S and even more glad that it doesn't involve your home.

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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.

Posts: 1914 | From: London | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged
Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768

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And appreciation to you, too, Sarasa, with all your concerns going on as well.

Still think that Something Needs to be Done with regards to social care and its links to the NHS, and it certainly isn't what May suggested.

First find out what is needed in terms of resources, then find out ways to fund it that are not ripping off random people with fuzzy brains.

Mental illnesses to be treated the same way as physical ones, not charged while the latter are free. A seamless transfer from hospital to convalescence, with that period used for whatever care plan needs to be enabled, such as stair lifts (with repayable grants where proper). Some of it's in place now, but it isn't known about properly.

I would be quite happy to keep paying NI, if it were to return to being hypothecated for health and welfare. (And my MP wouldn't jump to the conclusion that people who couldn't afford to self-fund had chosen to be on benefits as a lifestyle choice, which I seemed to pick up from his expression last night at a pre-election meeting. For a seriously Tory area he picked up a bit of flak about social care payments, despite insisting the election was about Brexit. I said nothing. There were enough people saying enough. But I did feed a bit in afterwards to a local councillor (Ex-pupil. Clearly failed somewhere there. I said I had tried to keep my politics under wraps. She said it's only later looking back that one realises. Hmm.)

And I don't really need the winter fuel payment, though this year it was useful, and I can set previous years' lots against this year's other expenditure.

If they are going to change the payment scheme, it needs a run-in period, like they didn't do with women's pensions, so people can make plans appropriately (and I don't mean giving the house to the offspring). But what's wrong with upping NI a bit, and sharing the risk, like insurance? And certainly not charging self-funders excess over the costs to cover those with not enough money. To dump it on people suddenly is not right.

Oh, and meetings to be held after documents are sent out in advance so people can think about what is being presented to them. Maybe some people might not be able to make sense of them, but it would help the majority.

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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Rook--

quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Yes, dear, and that's wonderful--but scientific methods have nothing to do with the conversation.

You really are a delightful old moron, to so helpfully point out how readily stupid people like you fling yourselves on logical fallacy and cognitive bias instead of actual reason or facts.¹
Hmmm...I think I paid for the Argument Room, not Verbal Abuse.

quote:

"Roger the Shrubber: Are you saying Ni to that old woman?
King Arthur: Um, yes.
Roger the Shrubber: Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say Ni at will to old ladies. There is a pestilence upon this land, nothing is sacred.

~~"Monty Python & The Holy Grail"

quote:
Feelings about Penny's authenticity are perhaps interesting to note, but of very little actual value in this conversation. Not that I expect you to recognize what ideas are of actual value. Just trying to help you out.
Very kind of you, I'm sure. However, I'm not sure how science would be applicable to a discussion of a Shipmate's personal life. Set up a real life experiment, wherein Penny's friend's mom is escorted to the ER/A&E morning, noon, and night for a year, with extensive measurement of affect, behavior, and temperature? Send Penny on an all-expenses-paid vacation for that entire year, so she doesn't contaminate the data? Make the mom watch the entire video canon of Monty Python, and see if it helps her in any way? Do the fish-slapping dance with her?[/qb][/quote]

quote:
¹ Note how easily this derails into a Trump/BREXIT thread.
¹ Note how easily this derails into a Monty Python celebration!

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17936 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged



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