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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Trumpton
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
This looks like it'll be an interesting book.
Perhaps. The descriptions I've read have been a lot of "oh the poor white underclass, bottom of the heap in America" -- rather ignoring the black underclass and the fact of race-based slavery and its repercussions.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
I've read the book, and I don't think it claims that it's own focus is one that supercedes another. It is a well researched explanation about one subject matter. The illustrations and drawings are also good. I would recommend it.
I did not read the chapters in order. The book is very long, so I would pick it up and choose whichever chapter interested me at the time. Probably not what the author had in mind.
Actually, I think J.D. Vance's "Hillbilly Elegy" leans more toward the attitude that mousethief is referencing that this book.
sabine
[ 30. April 2017, 17:12: Message edited by: sabine ]
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Fair do's. I haven't read either.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
Actually, I think J.D. Vance's "Hillbilly Elegy" leans more toward the attitude that mousethief is referencing that this book.
'Hillbily Elegy' was certainly execrable on all sorts of levels.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Tukai
Shipmate
# 12960
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Posted
With two "unpredictable madmen" * facing off with nuclear weapons over North Korea, I have been inspired to re-read Nevil Shute's 1956 novel "On the Beach". It tells of the end of human life following nuclear war.
In particular it tells through personal tales how the Australian city of Melbourne awaits the slow drift southward of the radioactive dust and air from the all-comers nuclear war that killed off all human life in the northern hemisphere two years earlier. It is discovered half-way through the book that the war started with a couple of one small nuclear states getting their bomb in first, and then the big boys got drawn in - partly by mistake.
Let's hope it's not too prescient! ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
* "unpredictable madman" is the phrase used by the Australian foreign minister to describe Kim Jong Un. She argues that is why we should uncritically support the USA, but Australian cartoonists and commentators reckon the description applies equally to the current US leader.
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A government that panders to the worst instincts of its people degrades the whole country for years to come.
Posts: 594 | From: Oz | Registered: Sep 2007
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
From the ,barely, sentient Cheeto
quote:
"People don't realize, you know, the Civil War, if you think about it, why?" the president said. "People don't ask that question, but why was there the Civil War? Why could that one not have been worked out?"
Link
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Pangolin Guerre
Shipmate
# 18686
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Posted
Very strange convergence: I was unaware of the existence of On The Beach, and while I was away for the weekend at a cottage, it came up in conversation. And, now, it pops up here. Apparently I have to buy it, despite having forsworn further purchases. I listen for the signs. We also discussed A Canticle for Liebowitz.
[ 01. May 2017, 23:46: Message edited by: Pangolin Guerre ]
Posts: 758 | From: 30 arpents de neige | Registered: Nov 2016
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roybart
Shipmate
# 17357
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Posted
Come on, let's try look at this in proportion. The "whys" of the Civil War have been addressed in fewer than a billion words in the last 150 years. How can a busy man like Mr. Trump be expected to know of their existence? Let's be fair. This is called Thinking In 140 Characters and is actually quite an efficient use of time.
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"The consolations of the imaginary are not imaginary consolations."
-- Roger Scruton
Posts: 547 | From: here | Registered: Sep 2012
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Over at the Post columnist Jennifer Rubin delineated the many ways that Trump has demonstrated he is not normal in the last few weeks.
And the complicity and spinelessness of the GOP has revealed that that they are incapable of defending the Republic against him. So they are irretrievably tarred as well.
The money quote: "During the first 100 days the Republic has survived, but the GOP, permanently we think, has been morally compromised and intellectually corrupted, just as many of us warned. “Everything Trump touches dies,” GOP consultant Rick Wilson is fond of saying. Trump’s victims now include a respectable Republican Party."
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
Actually, I think J.D. Vance's "Hillbilly Elegy" leans more toward the attitude that mousethief is referencing that this book.
'Hillbily Elegy' was certainly execrable on all sorts of levels.
Oh boy, yeah. Reads like an essay from a first-year Uni student. Subject has plenty to say but has not troubled to order his thoughts. If the second half is amazing, I guess I missed out, but it seemed unlikely.
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
BBC Radio 4 had an interesting programme yesterday evening at 8 pm on the history of the USA which dealt with the founding, and how the roots of the Civil War were established at the very beginning, with the southern states insisting on the Constitution being drawn up to protect slavery - for instance with the northern states required to return missing property to slave owners. (While never using the word slave) I had not known this.
So the embarrassing one is wronger than he seems.
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roybart
Shipmate
# 17357
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Posted
And, there is a direct line connecting the slavery issue to the near-monopoly enjoyed by the Republican Party in the formerly Democratic "solid South."
When New Deal Democrats began supporting civil rights for black people in the 30s and 40s, Southern voters switched within two decades to the Republicans, who were now quite happy to give up their legacy of anti-slavery and "the party of Lincoln." In 2016 the Southern vote was solidly for Trump.
(Please note that Christian denominations were leaders in this turn to the Republicans, among the most influential being the Southern Baptists.)
Posts: 547 | From: here | Registered: Sep 2012
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
quote:
'Hillbily Elegy' was certainly execrable on all sorts of levels.
Oh boy, yeah. Reads like an essay from a first-year Uni student. Subject has plenty to say but has not troubled to order his thoughts.
The book reads very much like one of those evangelical hagiographies - minus the conversion story. In fact if someone had told me it had been ghost written by John/Elizabeth Sherrill I would not have been surprised. I would also not be surprised if Vance used it in the future as a platform to elected office.
It valorises a particular culture, while not actually examining the culture itself too closely, or the reasons why the protagonist had the opportunities he did (his grandparents moved away from area in which the culture was strongest). He clearly wants us to valorise the culture for everything that makes the people in it vote Republican, while simultaneously wanting to limit the political discourse itself to the kinds of economic remedies which Republicans will support (there's no mention of the administration of the mining towns where a lot of these people would have originated from, and why this might have led to some of the attitudes they display).
From a European perspective it seemed somewhat obvious that a socialised medical system would actually improve things greatly for that society - obviously there are plenty of other problems there. It's not, however, a solution that Vance is likely to propose simply because of his political leanings.
.. and apart from the tell of a foreign name, you could read the book and be unaware that his wife is of Indian origin - given the racial attitudes of his relatives it's somewhat telling that this is never discussed in the book.
[ 02. May 2017, 11:47: Message edited by: chris stiles ]
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
BBC Radio 4 had an interesting programme yesterday evening at 8 pm on the history of the USA which dealt with the founding, and how the roots of the Civil War were established at the very beginning, with the southern states insisting on the Constitution being drawn up to protect slavery - for instance with the northern states required to return missing property to slave owners. (While never using the word slave) I had not known this.
So the embarrassing one is wronger than he seems.
That particular issue was a compromise that the Founding Fathers knew would come back to bite them. But to get the job done they signed on. (A great and entirely easy way to learn about the issue is to view the musical 1776. It's not often staged but was filmed as a movie which is a cult classic.
Meanwhile on late-night TV last night host Jimmy Kimmel made a heartrending plea for universal health care. His newborn son had a heart defect and had open-heart surgery before he was hours old; without health insurance he surely would have died. And the infant now has a pre-existing condition (born with it) that will, if Trumpcare goes through, make him uninsurable for the rest of his days.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Crśsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
From the ,barely, sentient Cheeto
quote:
"People don't realize, you know, the Civil War, if you think about it, why?" the president said. "People don't ask that question, but why was there the Civil War? Why could that one not have been worked out?"
I cannot, offhand, think of a more frequently discussed topic in American history.
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
BBC Radio 4 had an interesting programme yesterday evening at 8 pm on the history of the USA which dealt with the founding, and how the roots of the Civil War were established at the very beginning, with the southern states insisting on the Constitution being drawn up to protect slavery - for instance with the northern states required to return missing property to slave owners. (While never using the word slave) I had not known this.
There are three places where the original U.S. Constitution deals with slavery, all of them assiduously avoiding the actual words "slave" or "slavery". The first is the three-fifths clause (Art. I, §2, cl. 3) which inflated the power of slave-intensive states by counting their (non-voting) slaves towards political representation in the federal government. Slaves are referred to as "all other Persons" in that section.
The second mention was the twenty year prohibition on Congress outlawing the international slave trade (Art. I, §9, cl. 1). There slaves are referred to as "such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit".
The third was the fugitive slave clause (Art. IV, §2, cl. 3), which required states to return runaway slaves which had escaped into their jurisdiction to their lawful owners. Here slaves are called a "Person held to Service or Labour". This was a particular bone of contention leading up to the Civil War, with slaveholding states accusing non-slaveholding states of failing to uphold this Constitutional provision. (This also demonstrates that "state's rights" was a post hoc justification for the Civil War that didn't really become popular until after the war was over. The southern states opposed "state's rights" when it came to states asserting their rights to waive enforcement of the fugitive slave clause.)
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Quite how I came across this chilling little Trumpocalypse item, I know not, but....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asvaYp2u4SI&t=28s
The idea of a Mad Pussygrabber launching nukes indiscriminately is truly awful, as is that of a Citizen Militia surrounding and protecting him against the public.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Meanwhile on late-night TV last night host Jimmy Kimmel made a heartrending plea for universal health care. His newborn son had a heart defect and had open-heart surgery before he was hours old; without health insurance he surely would have died. And the infant now has a pre-existing condition (born with it) that will, if Trumpcare goes through, make him uninsurable for the rest of his days.
*tangent alert* My infant granddaughter was born with a similar life-threatening (or I should simply say "fatal w/o surgery") condition and had the exact same surgeon at the same hospital. It is truly a wonderful, wonderful place where God's work is being done every day.
The bill for the first month of our granddaughter's care was in excess of $800K US. Just the first month. Like Kimmel's son, she will require at least 2 more open heart surgeries. You can do the math.
And like Kimmel's son, she quite literally would not be alive (and cooing adorably if I might say) today if not for the considerable efforts of the Medicare system to finance this endeavor and pay for her continued lifelong care. We were told quite frankly that no insurance would cover this. (The fact that it would probably be significantly cheaper if we had single payer is, of course, also relevant...)
What I want to get up on the rooftops and scream at every one of my evangelical brethren is: "THIS is what pro-life looks like you morons!" This is what it means to be pro-life-- to care for EVERY life-- not just fetal lives but also newborn babies with serious heart conditions-- but also tattooed 20 year olds with hearing loss and 50 year old smokers with lung cancer. To American babies but also to Syrian babies. I could go on to parse how pro-life applies to black lives matter and mass incarceration and the death penalty-- and LGBTQ lives and sexual assault and access to bathrooms. Yes, I can feel the rant welling up within me as it only can in a grandma who has been in that precise same waiting room where Kimmel spent the worst 3 hours of his life.
I am pissed and there's nothing in the world more dangerous than a pissed-off grandma. GOP: you've been warned. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
*end tangent as grandma returns to her knitting...*
[ 02. May 2017, 22:57: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
This is what the GOP is saying to you, Cliffdweller. I hope this Congressman's church throws him out, bell, book and candle, the full excommunication, anathema until he repents barefoot in the snow holding a beeswax candle four feet long, kneeling to knock his forehead on the threshold of the narthex while the congregation yells "Shame! Shame!" at him.
If you look at the actions Jesus actually undertakes, surely in the top ten is healing. It is one of the main things He ever did. He was a walking, talking universal health care system.
[ 02. May 2017, 23:52: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tukai:
With two "unpredictable madmen" * facing off with nuclear weapons over North Korea, I have been inspired to re-read Nevil Shute's 1956 novel "On the Beach". It tells of the end of human life following nuclear war.
In particular it tells through personal tales how the Australian city of Melbourne awaits the slow drift southward of the radioactive dust and air from the all-comers nuclear war that killed off all human life in the northern hemisphere two years earlier. It is discovered half-way through the book that the war started with a couple of one small nuclear states getting their bomb in first, and then the big boys got drawn in - partly by mistake.
Let's hope it's not too prescient!
* "unpredictable madman" is the phrase used by the Australian foreign minister to describe Kim Jong Un. She argues that is why we should uncritically support the USA, but Australian cartoonists and commentators reckon the description applies equally to the current US leader.
Sorry, I'm late to this party. I have seen moral equivalency arguments between the North Korean leader and Trump on social media around this comment of Bishop's. Trump is indeed awful and a blot on the reputation of the United States. But he doesn't put workers and contractors in concentration camps, he just avoids paying them. He may have got famous on a game show, but he didn't use a gameshow as a ruse to murder his brother. Trump is an asshole and possibly a white collar criminal. Kim is a dictator who murders his own people and relatives to stay in power.
I'm sure Tukai was making a joke but this is hell, and I have a bee in my bonnet.
Oh, my other bee: Australia does not and has never followed the USA blindly into war. What we seek is intimate access to the leadership of the country. In September 2011, Howard was in the room adding his voice to those who were advising Bush to bomb Afghanistan, and then to invade and topple the Taliban. We were indeed 'all the way with LBJ' in the Vietnam war because that is what Australian leadership wanted. The domino theory of Communist expansion had us as the last domino, as there were active Communist movements in both Malaysia and Indonesia in the 1950's and 60's. We always help the Americans in war because it is in our interests to do so in the minds of our leaders. In East Asia, we are usually the ones egging on the Americans, because we perceive American involvement in that theatre to be in our national interest. Frankly, the left in this country does not like Americans, as a rule, and it distorts the left's view of Australia's national interests. Either that or they are trots like many of the NSW Greens.
Of course the left loves Woody Guthrie.
[ 03. May 2017, 04:48: Message edited by: simontoad ]
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
If you look at the actions Jesus actually undertakes, surely in the top ten is healing. It is one of the main things He ever did. He was a walking, talking universal health care system.
This should be your next banner.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
quote:
'Hillbily Elegy' was certainly execrable on all sorts of levels.
Oh boy, yeah. Reads like an essay from a first-year Uni student. Subject has plenty to say but has not troubled to order his thoughts.
The book reads very much like one of those evangelical hagiographies - minus the conversion story. In fact if someone had told me it had been ghost written by John/Elizabeth Sherrill I would not have been surprised. I would also not be surprised if Vance used it in the future as a platform to elected office.
It valorises a particular culture, while not actually examining the culture itself too closely, or the reasons why the protagonist had the opportunities he did (his grandparents moved away from area in which the culture was strongest). He clearly wants us to valorise the culture for everything that makes the people in it vote Republican, while simultaneously wanting to limit the political discourse itself to the kinds of economic remedies which Republicans will support (there's no mention of the administration of the mining towns where a lot of these people would have originated from, and why this might have led to some of the attitudes they display).
From a European perspective it seemed somewhat obvious that a socialised medical system would actually improve things greatly for that society - obviously there are plenty of other problems there. It's not, however, a solution that Vance is likely to propose simply because of his political leanings.
.. and apart from the tell of a foreign name, you could read the book and be unaware that his wife is of Indian origin - given the racial attitudes of his relatives it's somewhat telling that this is never discussed in the book.
I'm very surprised at all this criticism of a book that never for one minute tries to say it has all the answers to America's social problems, or any of them for that matter.
I read it as part autobiography and part observation of the people and area where he grew up. He doesn't talk about African Americans because they are very scarce in those areas. He's writing about what he knows. My large high school had exactly one African American and no Asians or Hispanics. Isn't it someone else's place to discuss race in America?
I grew up in West Virginia, just across the border from his town and I now live in southern Ohio very close to the town to which his family immigrated. Everything he said rang very true to me.
As to why the protagonist had the opportunities he did -- he mentioned it briefly and I saw it happen to many people I know. If a student stands out in one of these poor schools his teacher will probably help him apply for a full scholarship to a university, even places like Yale or Harvard. Those schools always reserve quite a few spots for under privileged students. My cousin went from a very poor area to West Virginia University, then Yale, and on to become the state's Attorney General. My brother got an appointment to West Point from our little school. It happens enough so that he probably didn't think he needed to detail the process or brag about how brilliant he was.
I thought the book was excellent precisely because he didn't seem to take the usual, "Oh look at the Appalachian poor, aren't they pitiful, it's all the fault of ____!" He knows there are many factors.
The coal mines closed because of simple supply and demand. There is no "town administration" that would keep these mines open just to create jobs. We regular folk would all love socialized medicine, but years of Democratic government hasn't given it to us. It's part the lobbying of big pharm and the AMA and partly an unwillingness to fund it with taxes, and who knows what else, but it's not just that no one has thought of it before and we needed someone from England to suggest it.
Most people accept that the people in Vance's book need to move to where the jobs are. That's why my high school reunions have so few people still living in the home town. Vance tries to explain why some never leave and why those who stay often aren't willing to work at the places that are hiring. This really has nothing much to do with politics. Most of the poorest people don't vote at all and whoever is in office doesn't make their lives better.
They are depressed and unmotivated because of it. This area has a huge opiate epidemic going on and we're trying to address it at the state level. I voted for Clinton, but I doubt if anything would be different if she had won. JFK went to "the poorest town in the country" in West Virginia when he was running for office and he did put some programs in place that helped, but it didn't turn us into a thriving state.
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This is what the GOP is saying to you, Cliffdweller. I hope this Congressman's church throws him out, bell, book and candle, the full excommunication, anathema until he repents barefoot in the snow holding a beeswax candle four feet long, kneeling to knock his forehead on the threshold of the narthex while the congregation yells "Shame! Shame!" at him.
(from the article)
quote:
Just like Jesus said, ‘The poor will always be with us.’ There is a group of people that just don’t want health care and aren’t going to take care of themselves.
Hmmm. Jesus is quoting Deuteronomy 15. A few snippets from that passage:
But there should be no poor people among you, because the Lord your God will richly bless you in the land he is giving you as your own.
If there are poor among you, in one of the towns of the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not be selfish or greedy toward them. But give freely to them, and freely lend them whatever they need.
Give freely to the poor person, and do not wish that you didn’t have to give.
There will always be poor people in the land, so I command you to give freely to your neighbors and to the poor and needy in your land.
Doesn't really fit his anti-Obamacare worldview, does it?
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
I've yet to meet these people the religious right are convinced don't want health care. They sure weren't in the waiting room with me and Kimmel.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
As I say, clearly not a Christian. Anathema, anathema. I have a four-foot long beeswax candle right here.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
As I say, clearly not a Christian.
But it is worse that that. I don't mind people who aren't Christian, and I don't even mind them commenting on the Bible and Christianity.
But this is just talking such utter drivel it makes Westboro seem sensible. It is so distant from what Jesus means - clearly meant from all of his teaching - it beggars belief.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
As I say, clearly not a Christian.
But it is worse that that. I don't mind people who aren't Christian, and I don't even mind them commenting on the Bible and Christianity.
But this is just talking such utter drivel it makes Westboro seem sensible. It is so distant from what Jesus means - clearly meant from all of his teaching - it beggars belief.
Yeah, it's that black-is-white double speak that grinds, isn't it? Rather than, "I disagree with Jesus on this" just rewrite it so Jesus meant the exact opposite of what he actual said.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
Meanwhile, ultra-conservative Liberty University (they of Jerry Falwell Sr & Jr fame) has invited POTUS to be their graduation speaker, and Shane Clairborne has a beautiful dream.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Meanwhile, ultra-conservative Liberty University (they of Jerry Falwell Sr & Jr fame) has invited POTUS to be their graduation speaker, and Shane Clairborne has a beautiful dream.
I love it! But it would never happen at "Liberty". ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Perhaps not, but what a wonderful idea for other events graced by the Presence of the Pussygrabber...
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I'm very surprised at all this criticism of a book that never for one minute tries to say it has all the answers to America's social problems, or any of them for that matter.
I do not have any particular problems with the autobiographical/observational parts, but it's a fact that his particular political bent and prescriptions constantly come through. There's the recycling of stereotypes of welfare queens, his basic advice which consists of pulling on ones own bootstraps, the ways in which the attitudes of individuals come to stand in as attitudes of a 'liberal elite' (see section on professor critiquing the war in Iraq, which he takes to be an insult of his service).
At the same time, he wants us to sympathise with the culture he describes, but in fairly narrow terms. There are books written decrying cultures of crime, drugs, violence and family breakdown but those are generally written by Conservatives on Black America, in this case he'd have us ignore all of that and admire the culture for the things that cause them to lean conservative (loyalty, reflexive patriotism and some idea of family values).
quote:
My large high school had exactly one African American and no Asians or Hispanics. Isn't it someone else's place to discuss race in America?
Frankly he can talk about whatever he wants, except if you read the book you would be none the wiser that he married someone of Indian extraction, and they had two wedding ceremonies one of which was a traditional Hindu one. His relatives - who appear to be highly opinionated over everything else - seem remarkably silent about this (they are fairly vocal about why they don't like Obama for instance - the answer turns out to be his accent ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) ).
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My brother got an appointment to West Point from our little school. It happens enough so that he probably didn't think he needed to detail the process or brag about how brilliant he was.
He did not need to boast in order to make the point that these opportunities may not necessarily make him a good representative of his culture.
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The coal mines closed because of simple supply and demand. There is no "town administration" that would keep these mines open just to create jobs.
I wasn't talking about the coal mines closing, so much as the extent to which a lot these towns were essentially 'company towns' and administered as such - with all the problems that brought.
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but it's not just that no one has thought of it before and we needed someone from England to suggest it.
I'm sure it's occurred to plenty of people before, nevertheless the prescriptions Vance comes to consists of recycled Cosbyisms and the idea that poverty alleviation is too politicised.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I am just reading on Twitter that Trumpcare has been passed by congress. Which will deprive millions of people of health care coverage. Because it is an appalling piece of legislation.
OTOH, I am also hearing that the Senate will not accept the bill (I have no idea exactly how US politics works), so at least some people in the legislature have some sense.
And Trump is such an abusive, dangerous, shithead.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
And Trump is such an abusive, dangerous, shithead.
Did you just realize this?
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I am just reading on Twitter that Trumpcare has been passed by congress.
It has been passed by the House of Representatives—one half of Congress.
quote:
OTOH, I am also hearing that the Senate will not accept the bill (I have no idea exactly how US politics works). . . .
In order to become law, a bill has to pass both the House and the Senate in identical form. There are basically three possibilities:
— The Senate passes the bill in exactly the same form, in which case it goes to Trump for his signature.
— The Senate makes changes to the bill and passes the amended version, in which case it goes back to the House for a vote to concur in the Senate version. If the House does not concur, a conference committee with members from both houses is created to try to work through differences and present a compromise to both house.
— The Senate lets the bill die by taking no action on it.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
BBC 'news' announced it as 'Trump scores healthcare victory in House', like it's a good thing...
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
One can only hope that, like other things Trump attempts, it dies.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Meanwhile, ultra-conservative Liberty University (they of Jerry Falwell Sr & Jr fame) has invited POTUS to be their graduation speaker, and Shane Clairborne has a beautiful dream.
I love it! But it would never happen at "Liberty".
But I sure hope it does! ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
cliffdweller, thanks for that link.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
And, if you will forgive me, one more opinion column from the POST on the same subject.
The money quote:
"Members of Congress vote on a lot of inconsequential bills and bills that have a small impact on limited areas of American life. But this is one of the most critical moments in recent American political history. The Republican health-care bill is an act of monstrous cruelty. It should stain those who supported it to the end of their days."
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
And Trump is such an abusive, dangerous, shithead.
Did you just realize this?
No, but I think it is worth reiterating every so often, because some people do seem to have forgotten.
And thank you Nick Tamen for clarifying the process. Always useful.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
People might find the "How to fire Trump" thread (Purg.) interesting.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
I found it disgraceful that after passing a bill that would put millions of people at risk of being unable to keep themselves healthy (or alive) House Republicans cracked open beers and acted giddy--as if they'd all just gotten prom dates in high school.
sabine
[ 05. May 2017, 14:06: Message edited by: sabine ]
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Although the bill cuts support for many female ailments (pregnancy, rape counseling) all the male ailments (prostate, erectile dysfunction) are carefully covered. Surprised?
This is a profoundly misogynistic bill. I thought it was just poor people and colored people; I had not realized they hated women quite so much.
Someone posted a shot from the current Hulu series The Handmaid's Tale. The sex-slave Handmaids in their red robes and white bonnets are sitting on a bench, and one says, "But they told us the Senate wouldn't pass it."
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Although the bill cuts support for many female ailments (pregnancy, rape counseling) all the male ailments (prostate, erectile dysfunction) are carefully covered. Surprised?
Well, look at the bunch of white men celebrating. (I note there is half of a face of a token woman in the group.)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
Hell (because it is), the overdose of testosterone isn't even the worst thing about the picture. The worst thing is the fact that they are celebrating. Celebrating passing a bill that the Congressional Budget Office estimates will mean 24 million will lose their health care-- which means millions will suffer and even die needlessly. The party that has won election after election crowing about being "pro-life" has never managed to save a single fetal life, but has now managed to end millions of lives both born and unborn.
"Pro-life" is the new pro-death.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
I wouldn't count on that bunch being overloaded with testosterone -- which is why they have to prove how "manly" they are by being bullies.
But yes, it's the fact that these old white guys are celebrating (apparently with much beer) that they've screwed the little guy.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Darlings, the reason Viagra is still covered is because they need it in the giant economy size.
One of the more useful things we could do is donate. Even a small sum, to the opponents of these morons. Dollars is the only thing they fear.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I wouldn't count on that bunch being overloaded with testosterone -- which is why they have to prove how "manly" they are by being bullies.
And why they think it's more important to cover erectile dysfunction than pregnancy.
I thought this article gave a chilling description of how something like this health care denial act can happen.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Not sure this will work for everybody, but click on it and see if you can see the image.
It's a meme, safe for work.
This link is free but somewhat less safe (language, New Republic, language!) but expresses well the feeling of many women. There's a reason why The Handmaid's Tale is a hit this year.
[ 05. May 2017, 22:35: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
I am in awe of your strength to fight on and get up every day. I think I'd curl up under the duvet and wait for the world to end... But no doubt that is what they want...no resistance.
That quoting of the "poor will always be with you" makes me sick. I read an article years ago that said there were Republicans who thought like that and I thought it was liberal exaggeration. You couldn't make it up.
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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