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Source: (consider it) Thread: Bishops
L'organist
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# 17338

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I think you've got the main suspect there.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Oscar the Grouch

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(Emerging briefly from the shadows...)

I am SO glad that I left the C of E to become part of the Anglican Church of Canada. If I had stayed put, I would not in all honesty be able to remain in the C of E, as I could not have any respect for any bishop who put their name to this document.

And one of the most awful things about this is that we all knew, before the Shared Conversations ever started, that this is how it would all end up. The Shared Conversations were always a smokescreen and utter waste of time.

(Going back into the shadows of lurkdom...)

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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu

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Chamois
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Originally posted by L'Organist:

quote:
I think you've got the main suspect there.
Yes. "Any or all of the above" probably applies.
Don't want to derail this thread with a tangent so lets leave it there.

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The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases

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Gwalchmai
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quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:


They LOVE their partners - they don't merely 'experience feelings' for them in one segregated area of human life.

In the course of my work as a lawyer I meet quite a few same-sex couples, both in civil partnerships and, more recently, in marriages. They are just as boringly married or partnered as most straight couples. Many of them have been together longer than a lot of married couples. They all report that their civil partnership ceremony or wedding brought as much joy to their families and friends as it would to the family and friends of straight couples.

The issue of same sex relationships is becoming as toxic to the C of E as the European Union is to political parties. Jesus said very little about sexuality but a great deal about money and power.

Perhaps the bishops could spend more time preaching the gospel and less time worrying about what people do with each other in the privacy of their bedrooms.

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
Perhaps the bishops could spend more time preaching the gospel and less time worrying about what people do with each other in the privacy of their bedrooms.

It all depends which gospel they decide to preach.
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ThunderBunk

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# 15579

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Well now, let's try the good news of the incarnation of God and God's unconditional love for creation, including human beings in all our aspects. How's that for a starter?

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

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Bishops Finger
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That'll do nicely, and it's the gospel preached in many churches - pity the bishops don't take more notice...

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
It all depends which gospel they decide to preach.

Didn't think there was anything to denigrate same sex liaisons in the Gospels. Yes, a load of waffle about man, woman,marriage and so on which heteros for Centuries have taken precious little notice of, and even less these days.

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The future will be arriving shorty

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Palimpsest
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As an outside observer, I'm curious what happens next? Is there a response from other groups in the church? Do people ignore this and wait for them to die of embarrassment? Or do they just shuffle off to other groups? Do the factions who pushed for this use this as an excuse for an inquisition of currently closeted partnered clergy?

Any ideas?

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Golden Key
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Of course you do, as is only natural in an other-than-Platonic relationship, but with love, and caring each for the other - just as much as (if not more than) 'straight' couples.

So where's the problem?

[Confused]

In the Bishops' heads....

IJ

Make the bishops watch the film "Mass Appeal". Forgive the SPOILERS, but they'll help you understand why. Young almost-priest, either gay or bi, is assigned to a much-older priest (Jason Robards, IIRC) who's rather worn out. When the bishop finds out the young almost-priest's sexuality, he has prurient interest and tries to find out details. Some great lines throughout, such as "Some people search with their bodies, but that didn't work for me". (All quotes approximate.)

Big scene with all three men:

{Bishop expresses horrified, fascinated prurience.}

Older priest {yelling}: As long as you're celibate, it doesn't matter whether your thing is men, women, or goats!

Bishop: GOATS!!!

{Young Almost-Priest starts to deny interest in goats.}

Older priest {Overriding him}: Yes, GOATS!

There's another great scene where Young Almost-Priest is in the pulpit, and tells the congregation the story of all his goldfish dying because of a problem he didn't realize; and he couldn't help them, because he couldn't hear their screams. Then he looks right at the congregation and says, "I want to hear your screams".

Really, really good film.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
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L'organist
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14 retired bishops have issued a letter to the current bishops about their report.

Headed up by Peter Selby, it includes people like Tim Stevens, John Gladwin and Lord Harries.

Apparently the story around this is on the front page of The Observer.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Ian Climacus

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The Observer article.
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Baptist Trainfan
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I've posted a link to this on the "House of Bishops' Report" page in Dead Horses.
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The Scrumpmeister
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quote:
Originally posted by anne:
Amongst the hurt and anger that I have been reading in response to this ridiculous and hurtful report has been a particular objection to the phrase "experience same-sex attraction" to describe gay people.

So much work has been done within the queer community - charities, groups, businesses, the pink press - to ensure that our policies, our assumptions, and the language we use don't exclude people who don't fit into the neat categories of "gay", "lesbian", or "straight" that have framed so much of the discourse about this, that it's actually encouraging to see organisations outside of the community taking that on board.

So now a religious body is taking this on board and acknowledging the breadth of people on the queer spectrum. I can't imagine what anybody would find objectionable about this - unless you're suggesting that only gay people experience same-sex attraction.

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John (Kovalevsky) of Saint-Denis

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Arethosemyfeet
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The problem is that "experience same-sex attraction" is a dog-whistle for the fundie-gelical fringe who think being gay is a lifestyle choice. It's not a reference to bisexuality or any other queer sexuality, it's homophobic bullshit which the Bishops ought to know well.
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The Scrumpmeister
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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
The problem is that "experience same-sex attraction" is a dog-whistle for the fundie-gelical fringe who think being gay is a lifestyle choice. It's not a reference to bisexuality or any other queer sexuality, it's homophobic bullshit which the Bishops ought to know well.

I suppose that makes sense, but what other term are they to use?

The various "LGBTQQIA..." abbreviations all exclude some groups, and quickly become ridiculously tedious, defeating the purpose of an abbreviation.

Personally, I favour queer but I don't think that's become sufficiently mainstream yet for the Church of England to be able to get away with it, especially as not even the Huffington Post could (although I congratulate them on sticking to their guns).

All in all, I think they used the right term, and that it's a vast improvement over their previous choice of "homophile".

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John (Kovalevsky) of Saint-Denis

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TomM
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quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
The problem is that "experience same-sex attraction" is a dog-whistle for the fundie-gelical fringe who think being gay is a lifestyle choice. It's not a reference to bisexuality or any other queer sexuality, it's homophobic bullshit which the Bishops ought to know well.

I suppose that makes sense, but what other term are they to use?

The various "LGBTQQIA..." abbreviations all exclude some groups, and quickly become ridiculously tedious, defeating the purpose of an abbreviation.

Personally, I favour queer but I don't think that's become sufficiently mainstream yet for the Church of England to be able to get away with it, especially as not even the Huffington Post could (although I congratulate them on sticking to their guns).

All in all, I think they used the right term, and that it's a vast improvement over their previous choice of "homophile".

I'd suggest terminology that isn't about making anyone who isn't straight-down-the-line cis-hetero out to be a 'them' to be stigmatised would be a bloody good start.
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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
I suppose that makes sense, but what other term are they to use?

I think inadvertently missing a small number of people is an improvement over using a term known to be grotesquely insulting to a large number. I can't see how the Bishops can have got through the "Shared Conversations" without coming across the hugely negative connotations of this term. Maybe they just don't care.
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Arethosemyfeet
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Actually, turns out they were well aware the report only addressed Lesbian and Gay people (see page 9 here: https://www.churchofengland.org/media/3874927/notice-paper-february-2017.pdf ) so there can be no claim that the phrase was intended to address any alternate sexuality, it was purely a sop to bigots.
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The Scrumpmeister
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To me, referring to people who experience attraction to the same sex is a means of inclusion. I have never consciously seen or heard this type of wording used in any negative way, and it just looked to me like a case of looking for something to be offended by.

I suppose it's just been too long since I have been following the intricacies of internal Anglican developments to grasp the nuances of the language used here. So I concede that I might have missed something that others have identified.

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John (Kovalevsky) of Saint-Denis

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Golden Key
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The Scrumpmeister--

Maybe it's because of using "same-sex attraction disorder" to indicate that being LGB is a mental illness? Do a web search on the term. FWIW.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Adeodatus
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If it helps the bishops and Synod this week, I can say with certainty that there are some LGBT+ people who wouldn't set foot in one of their bloody churches again if they paid us. So they needn't feel they have to try too hard to make us like them.

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
To me, referring to people who experience attraction to the same sex is a means of inclusion. I have never consciously seen or heard this type of wording used in any negative way, and it just looked to me like a case of looking for something to be offended by.

I suppose it's just been too long since I have been following the intricacies of internal Anglican developments to grasp the nuances of the language used here. So I concede that I might have missed something that others have identified.

It's by no means confined to Anglicanism, it's used by con-evos everywhere to deny the identity and gay and lesbian Christians.
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Bishops Finger
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Not just con-evos, either. I know an Anglo-Catholic priest who thinks the same way - mainly, I suspect, because he is so unsure of his own sexuality.

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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The Scrumpmeister
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Then I consider my horizons broadened.

This is new to me.

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John (Kovalevsky) of Saint-Denis

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Bishops Finger
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And, I expect, saddening.

Fortunately, of course, there many churches of all shades of churchmanship within the C of E which are inclusive (or trying to be).

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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Anselmina
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I think, too, the phrase 'experience same-sex attraction' is also in danger of making that human aspect of someone sound like either a regrettable flaw or a choice. Or, at best, like some part of them that can in fact be separated off from who they actually are as a whole person.

If someone is sacrificially loving, committed, monogamous, loyal and selfless towards his partner, it really can't and shouldn't be principally defined as 'experiencing same sex attraction' or even 'opposite sex attraction'. It reduces the comprehensive humanness of a person's whole experience to what they might, or might not, be doing with their private parts.

It just seems to me that the folks who see any expression of homosexual love as sinful especially physical expression, just want to put the 'naughty' aspects of being a gay person, into a hived off category. So therefore it's easier to imagine they're not really discussing, or disapproving, of a real live whole human being; they're just judging one or two sadly regrettable aspects of someone who might otherwise be acceptable to the Church.

There was a letter in The Church Times this week, however, from someone who like the Scrumpmeister could see some positive points in the use of the phrase. So it is something perhaps which might in some ways open up the discussion, too.

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quetzalcoatl
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Yes, it seems to eroticize relationship unduly, which I suppose (for bigots), is the point. Gays are out for instant shags, (and this is bad apparently), whereas straight people have long tender evenings in, discuss Wittgenstein, and have lots of photos of their children around the place, in silver frames, (and this is good).

However, I didn't realize that 'experiences same sex attraction' is being used as a dog whistle in some quarters.

What's wrong with LGBT+? You don't have to give the long version.

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clarity eats into freedom. (Bellow).

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quetzalcoatl
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Wow, yes, googled 'same sex attraction disorder' and found all manner of weird and wonderful exotica. From a Catholic website, 'weak masculine identity is easily identified and in my clinical experience is the major cause of SSAD in men'.

People were writing this stuff in the late 19th century and early 20th century, still it goes on, and inevitably leads to a Treatment section. Very sick.

http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/controversy/homosexuality/known-causes-of-same-sex-attraction.html

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clarity eats into freedom. (Bellow).

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Brenda Clough
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For Xmas from an indulgent relative I received a "Guide to Home Life" published in 1910. It is essentially a health and sex manual. The amount of truly appalling information in circulation during that period would crisp your hair.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer

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Bishops Finger
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The mere fact that it's classed as a Disorder moves me to despair.

And this from the same Church* noted for the amount of paedophilia and child abuse going on within it in recent (and not-so-recent) years.

*Yes, I know - by no means the only one....

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

What's wrong with LGBT+? You don't have to give the long version.

The form for blood donation uses MSM (Men who have sex with men), IIRC because some men who have sex with men do not self-identify as gay or bi. So I can see "people who experience same-sex attraction" as trying to be a label-free inclusive description that says that it doesn't matter how you choose to identify yourself, we're talking about people who are attracted to others of the same sex, and form relationships as a consequence of that.

(And the statement has nothing at all to do with T+: it's explicitly and exclusively concerned with L, G, and the same-sex parts of B.)

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
The mere fact that it's classed as a Disorder moves me to despair.

And this from the same Church* noted for the amount of paedophilia and child abuse going on within it in recent (and not-so-recent) years.

*Yes, I know - by no means the only one....

IJ

There was a scandal in the UK over conversion therapists, stemming from a journalist who went undercover. His therapist came out with the biggest load of cobblers, including that he might have been abused, that he should take up rugby, and she would pray for him, as gay sex is sinful, and so on.

This led in the end to the banning of conversion therapy in all UK organizations, although it remains legal to do it.

Anyway, she wasn't a Catholic.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/may/27/gay-conversion-therapy-patrick-strudwick

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clarity eats into freedom. (Bellow).

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
For Xmas from an indulgent relative I received a "Guide to Home Life" published in 1910. It is essentially a health and sex manual. The amount of truly appalling information in circulation during that period would crisp your hair.

Oh, you're such a tease! Give us some examples, please. The world wants to know.

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"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

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Brenda Clough
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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
[Oh, you're such a tease! Give us some examples, please. The world wants to know. [/QB]

This charming tome is SEX TRAINING IN THE HOME, by Dr. Winfield Scott Hall. It is copyright 1927. It is turgid lectures, followed by Q&A like this random selection:
May a man who for 2 or 3 years of his boyhood practiced masturbation, but who has reformed, ask a pure woman to be his wife?
I know you will heave a sigh of relief to learn that the good doctor, after much hedging and circumlocution, says yes. There is tons more (his discussion of eugenics and why you shouldn't marry out of your race is stupendous).
Here it is online, for your delectation.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer

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Bishops Finger
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I suspect the good Doctor is (albeit somewhat aged) still alive, well, and working in the Church of England... [Paranoid]

Wonderful stuff, though - talk about a different world....

(The term a pure woman reminds me of Hardy's typically ironic sub-title for Tess of the D'Urbervilles.)

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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Adeodatus
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One of the questions asked at Synod yesterday was, given the bishops' restating of the CofE's understanding of marriage as being between one man and one woman for life, would there now be moves to bar divorced-and-remarried people from being ordained as priests or consecrated as bishops?

The answer from the Bishop of Norwich was "No."

Which rather shows this whole thing up for what it really is: a bit of queerbashing to keep the evos' money rolling in.

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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L'organist
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# 17338

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Don't tell me you ever thought it was about anything else [Killing me]

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Adeodatus
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# 4992

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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Don't tell me you ever thought it was about anything else [Killing me]

I didn't. But reading through a few twitter threads, I think there are some poor naive saps who actually think the whole thing was an honest process.

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

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Perhaps this sums up what really ought to have been the Bishops' statement?!

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Huia
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Thanks for that Anselima. Thing is that it was funny, unlike the Bishops who are... well words fail me.

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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

Posts: 9489 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Palimpsest
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
For Xmas from an indulgent relative I received a "Guide to Home Life" published in 1910. It is essentially a health and sex manual. The amount of truly appalling information in circulation during that period would crisp your hair.

I have a manual that my mother sent me, written by the psychiatrist who ran the summer camp I went to as a child. It stated that careful attention to organic food avoiding white sugar and using whole wheat bread could cure homosexuality.

[ 20. February 2017, 06:05: Message edited by: Palimpsest ]

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Gee D
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# 13815

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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
One of the questions asked at Synod yesterday was, given the bishops' restating of the CofE's understanding of marriage as being between one man and one woman for life, would there now be moves to bar divorced-and-remarried people from being ordained as priests or consecrated as bishops?

The answer from the Bishop of Norwich was "No."

Which rather shows this whole thing up for what it really is: a bit of queerbashing to keep the evos' money rolling in.

The Archbishop here is quite clear that a divorced man, or a man married to a divorced woman, will not be licensed! Note of course that this refers to men only as women are still not licensed in this diocese.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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But, while that's in the Anglican Communion, it's not in the CofE. What the last post was surely trying to point out is the inconsistency which seems to lie within the English Church.
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Jemima the 9th
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# 15106

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quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
For Xmas from an indulgent relative I received a "Guide to Home Life" published in 1910. It is essentially a health and sex manual. The amount of truly appalling information in circulation during that period would crisp your hair.

I have a manual that my mother sent me, written by the psychiatrist who ran the summer camp I went to as a child. It stated that careful attention to organic food avoiding white sugar and using whole wheat bread could cure homosexuality.
I remember a manual (published in the 50s I think) I found in a holiday house. It was assumed that the wife would be virginal upon marriage, and that once it had been decided that marriage was to happen, she could make regular visits to the doctor. He would avail himself of a collection of plastic tubes or cups of increasing size, which could be inserted into the vagina, in order to widen it to make it sex-ready. Ah, a penis home! Surely Mark Driscoll would approve.

Other dodgy theories - I have also heard the male homosexuality is caused by a disordered idea of male identity (this from a con evo type, though) and lesbianism is caused by us women having dodgy relationships with our mothers, you know.

Posts: 693 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
SvitlanaV2
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# 16967

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quote:
Originally posted by Jemima the 9th:
I remember a manual (published in the 50s I think) I found in a holiday house. It was assumed that the wife would be virginal upon marriage, and that once it had been decided that marriage was to happen, she could make regular visits to the doctor. He would avail himself of a collection of plastic tubes or cups of increasing size, which could be inserted into the vagina, in order to widen it to make it sex-ready. Ah, a penis home! Surely Mark Driscoll would approve.

Sounds like quite an interesting procedure, and I wonder when it was first devised. Brides in the 1950s were more likely to have been virgins than nowadays, of course.
Posts: 5848 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Brides in the 1950s were more likely to have been virgins than nowadays, of course.

[citation needed]

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Lost in Space

Posts: 7961 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Brides in the 1950s were more likely to have been virgins than nowadays, of course.

[citation needed]
Don't know if a 'citation' is actually needed! Unless we've morphed into Wikipedia?! Probably SvitlanaV2 is giving an opinion, and one I would be inclined to agree with, if only anecdotally and given the cultural millieu of the time.

It's probably, though maybe not provably true that more brides were NOT virgins than was assumed at the time. The war years did a lot to encourage less conventional sexual habits.

But compared to 60's onwards, I would've thought it a fairly safe bet to suppose that more women were virgins on their wedding night in the 50's than in more recent times. The percentage might've been, as I say, a little slimmer than folks at the time would've thought.

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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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"More likely to say they were virgins" is probably accurate. But anything else is a stretch, and is unverifiable.

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Lost in Space

Posts: 7961 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
But anything else is a stretch.

Really? [Hot and Hormonal] [Devil]
Posts: 8336 | From: East of Greenwich | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged



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