homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | Register | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Hell   » Catholic Church in Australia

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.    
Source: (consider it) Thread: Catholic Church in Australia
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

 - Posted      Profile for simontoad   Email simontoad   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
These awful bastards have been doing things so badly for so long that I feel that I can't even send a facebook post about how lucky my parish was in the 1970's and 1980's to have the priests we did. How do I know one of my 50-odd cousins wasn't abused, or any of their children? One of my cousins committed suicide in the 1980's. How do I know he wasn't abused? I probably wouldn't have been told.

He was a brilliant musician and a cherished childhood playmate.


ABC Article on figures released about Child Sexual Abuse

--------------------
Human

Posts: 1170 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Terrible stories and the detailed statistics are even worse.

[ 07. February 2017, 05:34: Message edited by: Gee D ]

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 6695 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
At the risk of resurrecting at least the odour of Defunct and Decaying Equines, I do wonder if the problem would be so bad and widespread if the RCC ordained women, and did not insist on clerical celibacy.

A bit late in the day for those poor souls affected, whether in Oz or elsewhere in the world. Not a good advert for what regards itself as the Universal Church.

IJ

--------------------
The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 9124 | From: Passing The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The CofE is in the process of opening all the cupboards and taking out the skeletons. Let he who is without sin, etc.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 8823 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
At the risk of resurrecting at least the odour of Defunct and Decaying Equines, I do wonder if the problem would be so bad and widespread if the RCC ordained women, and did not insist on clerical celibacy.

No. Paedophelia isn't the result of sexual frustration. Parents do it to their children. Any situation in which trust is a feature will draw abusers.
quote:

A bit late in the day for those poor souls affected, whether in Oz or elsewhere in the world. Not a good advert for what regards itself as the Universal Church.

IJ

Peadopholia occurs in any situation where trust is involved. The only place the RCC is more egregious than any oh there church is the ability to cover up. That is a function of their structure more than anything else.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16911 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
At the risk of resurrecting at least the odour of Defunct and Decaying Equines, I do wonder if the problem would be so bad and widespread if the RCC ordained women, and did not insist on clerical celibacy.

No. Paedophelia isn't the result of sexual frustration. Parents do it to their children. Any situation in which trust is a feature will draw abusers.
And indeed the law reports indicate that sexual abuse of children is much more likely to happen within extended families than in institutions. Abuse of multiple victims is more likely in institutions. In any event, the terms of reference for the Royal Commission limit its work to institutions.

When the report gets published, there will probably be much more data available. The impression I have is that abuse in institutions has declined over the last 20 or 30 years. That may well be related to the decline in vocations. There may also be a correlation in the RC church between the age upon which offenders entered their orders. In the past, those entering such orders as the Marist Brothers or Christian Brothers did so in their early teens, pre-pubescent perhaps, certainly pubescent, and with very limited worldly experience. By and large, there have been very few allegations against Jesuits where entry is not until much later - but then 2 years ago, a former South Australian head of the order pleaded guilty to a large number of offences.

This week's hearings are specifically related to the RC church; in the past, there have been some very disturbing revelations about abuse in the Anglican diocese of Newcastle. That supports comments that there is no relation to enforced celibacy.

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 6695 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

 - Posted      Profile for Ian Climacus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
How can such cruelty be perpetrated by those called on to care for people!?!? I rage within.

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
This week's hearings are specifically related to the RC church; in the past, there have been some very disturbing revelations about abuse in the Anglican diocese of Newcastle. That supports comments that there is no relation to enforced celibacy.

Indeed.

Living in Newcastle while the hearings were going on there, I got to hear quite a bit about the testimonies through the local news. It was, as you would suspect, heart-wrenching -- and anger-inducing.

Unhellish, sorry, but while my heart weeps for the victims at the same time as my anger rages towards the perpetrators, for whom it would've been better to have a millstone hung around their necks, I can't help worry about what is it that either holds me back from such thoughts, let alone actions, or what made them cross that line. We share the same genetic stuff, same species...what was the difference?

Posts: 7524 | From: Albury, Australia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
MaryLouise
Shipmate
# 18697

 - Posted      Profile for MaryLouise   Author's homepage   Email MaryLouise   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
What bothers me too is that entrenched culture of secrecy, cover-ups and minimising of the abuse. And how so many offending priests have been protected and kept out of the public eye for decades.

Some years ago David Clohessy, national director for the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests pointed out that active paedophiles in religious orders were not just moved around to different parishes within Australia or the United States but sent abroad to parishes or schools run by the Christian Brothers, Marist Brothers, Salesians of Don Bosco (all mentioned in the royal commission report) because most established teaching orders are active in the missionary territories in Africa or Latin America. Clohessy argued that bishops were increasingly moving offenders to the developing world where there was less vigorous law enforcement, less independent media and a greater power differential between priests and parishioners.

--------------------
“As regards plots I find real life no help at all. Real life seems to have no plots.”

-- Ivy Compton-Burnett

Posts: 484 | From: Cape Town | Registered: Nov 2016  |  IP: Logged
Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

 - Posted      Profile for Ian Climacus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I may be completely off here, but did the secrecy of the confessional have any impact on priests being moved around Australia, or the world? If a paedophile priest confessed, what were any legal obligations on the part of the one hearing it? And what are legal obligations now, if they've changed?
Posts: 7524 | From: Albury, Australia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Not as far as I can remember. Secrecy of the confessional was raised as a reason why a priest may not have disclosed information to the police, but that was in the context of a confession by a non-religious, not by an abusing priest or brother making his confession (masculine used, virtually no complaints against women).

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 6695 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

 - Posted      Profile for Ian Climacus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Thanks Gee D.
Posts: 7524 | From: Albury, Australia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
MaryLouise
Shipmate
# 18697

 - Posted      Profile for MaryLouise   Author's homepage   Email MaryLouise   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
And it's hard to see how a confessor could have acted without breaking the seal of the confessional.

But from what I've read about active paedophiles, many wouldn't go to confession or ask for treatment because they don't think what they do is wrong or 'sick'. They know it is reviled by others and so they don't attempt to justify it but privately they think the desire for sex is reciprocated (intergenerational love as in the Greek classics) or that the child seduced them, or that the fondling and touching did no harm. That is why the elaborate justifications and denial they create for themselves is boosted by finding others who are doing the same thing or who agree it is excusable or harmless, that what matters is to protect the religious order, school or Church from scandal or criticism. That is the culture of secrecy and clandestine support I was talking about.

[ 09. February 2017, 06:27: Message edited by: MaryLouise ]

--------------------
“As regards plots I find real life no help at all. Real life seems to have no plots.”

-- Ivy Compton-Burnett

Posts: 484 | From: Cape Town | Registered: Nov 2016  |  IP: Logged
Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

 - Posted      Profile for Moo   Email Moo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I have the impression that one cause of pedophilia was the constant warnings against relationships with women. AFAIK those in training for the priesthood were not similarly warned about relationship with boys or other men.

Moo

--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.

Posts: 20190 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by MaryLouise:
And it's hard to see how a confessor could have acted without breaking the seal of the confessional.

But from what I've read about active paedophiles, many wouldn't go to confession or ask for treatment because they don't think what they do is wrong or 'sick'. They know it is reviled by others and so they don't attempt to justify it but privately they think the desire for sex is reciprocated (intergenerational love as in the Greek classics) or that the child seduced them, or that the fondling and touching did no harm. That is why the elaborate justifications and denial they create for themselves is boosted by finding others who are doing the same thing or who agree it is excusable or harmless, that what matters is to protect the religious order, school or Church from scandal or criticism. That is the culture of secrecy and clandestine support I was talking about.

I'm not at all sure about that if we are talking of clergy or the religious. They would/should know from their training the sinfulness of their actions. Even more so in the RC church, where they have taken a vow of celibacy. Yes, they would go to confession just as the others, but not make a full expression of their sinfulness.

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 6695 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768

 - Posted      Profile for Penny S     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Ian
quote:
We share the same genetic stuff, same species...what was the difference?
A woman on the radio was asking about this. It clearly needs investigation.

And I wonder if it is appropriate to cite the same species. In the wild, when animals show such differences in behaviour, they may be classified differently. In this case, is it genetic? Nature rather than nurture? Is there something missing, or too much of something? And if nurture, now does it get stopped? Not all perpetrators are from families which exhibit the behaviour across generations. (One of my colleagues was on the jury of a case involving multigenerational familial abuse. She was utterly sickened. And removed from being called again.)

Posts: 5770 | Registered: May 2009  |  IP: Logged
MaryLouise
Shipmate
# 18697

 - Posted      Profile for MaryLouise   Author's homepage   Email MaryLouise   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:

I'm not at all sure about that if we are talking of clergy or the religious. They would/should know from their training the sinfulness of their actions. Even more so in the RC church, where they have taken a vow of celibacy. Yes, they would go to confession just as the others, but not make a full expression of their sinfulness. [/QUOTE]

You're right about that, Gee D. Clergy should objectively know what constitutes sin and should feel obliged to confess it. Whether or not this happened/happens is just hypothetical surmise. Given the extent of the cover-up, I wonder how much disclosure was ever made, in confession or elsewhere.

--------------------
“As regards plots I find real life no help at all. Real life seems to have no plots.”

-- Ivy Compton-Burnett

Posts: 484 | From: Cape Town | Registered: Nov 2016  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The evidence is that by and large very little disclosure was made by anyone - the abusers, the victims, the families, those around at the time; yet when there was a disclosure many years later there were attempts to gloss over it and cover up what probably had occurred. It was a failure to tell police and others of evidence which had come before him many years after the event which led to the resignation of ++ Roger Herft. Perhaps action at that stage may have prevented further abuses (although the evidence of such later abuses has been pretty thin).

[ 10. February 2017, 09:15: Message edited by: Gee D ]

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 6695 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
I have the impression that one cause of pedophilia was the constant warnings against relationships with women. AFAIK those in training for the priesthood were not similarly warned about relationship with boys or other men.

Moo

Once again, No. The RCC's sin isn't having more paedophiles than other Christian sects, it isn't covering up the crimes. This has been a problem in all the major denominations. It is that they; as a huge, monolithic organization, were able to be more efficient and thorough in the coverup.
BTW, I think you'll find plenty of abuse cases were the victim was female. What might increase the male victim percentage in the RCC is misogyny.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16911 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

 - Posted      Profile for Moo   Email Moo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
I have the impression that one cause of pedophilia was the constant warnings against relationships with women. AFAIK those in training for the priesthood were not similarly warned about relationship with boys or other men.

Moo

Once again, No. The RCC's sin isn't having more paedophiles than other Christian sects, it isn't covering up the crimes. This has been a problem in all the major denominations. It is that they; as a huge, monolithic organization, were able to be more efficient and thorough in the coverup.
BTW, I think you'll find plenty of abuse cases were the victim was female. What might increase the male victim percentage in the RCC is misogyny.

I have heard of a diocese where priests who had sex with boys were reprimanded and reassigned, while priests who had sex with consenting adult women were expelled from the priesthood.

Moo

--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.

Posts: 20190 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
I have the impression that one cause of pedophilia was the constant warnings against relationships with women. AFAIK those in training for the priesthood were not similarly warned about relationship with boys or other men.

Moo

Once again, No. The RCC's sin isn't having more paedophiles than other Christian sects, it isn't covering up the crimes. This has been a problem in all the major denominations. It is that they; as a huge, monolithic organization, were able to be more efficient and thorough in the coverup.
BTW, I think you'll find plenty of abuse cases were the victim was female. What might increase the male victim percentage in the RCC is misogyny.

I have heard of a diocese where priests who had sex with boys were reprimanded and reassigned, while priests who had sex with consenting adult women were expelled from the priesthood.

Moo

Perhaps because one is a tad more embarrassing than the other.
Think of adultery vs paedophilia in the real world. Jimmy Saville didn't get away with what he did because no eyes could see, but because they were averted. Plenty of adult on adult sex scandals in the papers during that time.

BTW, girls are more likely to be molested than boys. Not sure how that fits into your theories.

I am not defending the RCC in any way, shape or form. I am saying; firmly, loudly and unequivocally, that none of you should be complacent about paedophilia in your own organisations simply because the RCC cocked it up so badly. You all have had, do have and will continue to have this within your own churches.
The more you ascribe the cause to "things we don't do", the more easily it will hide.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16911 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

 - Posted      Profile for Moo   Email Moo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha

BTW, girls are more likely to be molested than boys. Not sure how that fits into your theories.

The reports I have heard indicate that Catholic priests molested boys far more frequently than girls. This may be because boys served as acolytes and were more available to the priests.

I am not suggesting that there is no problem outside the Catholic church.

Moo

--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.

Posts: 20190 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
BTW, girls are more likely to be molested than boys. Not sure how that fits into your theories.

I am not defending the RCC in any way, shape or form. I am saying; firmly, loudly and unequivocally, that none of you should be complacent about paedophilia in your own organisations simply because the RCC cocked it up so badly. You all have had, do have and will continue to have this within your own churches.
The more you ascribe the cause to "things we don't do", the more easily it will hide.

The evidence to the Royal Commission here is of abuse of boys in the RC church, both in schools and parishes. Abuse of girls has been non-existent in the evidence which has come out. The same is true of the evidence concerning the Anglican Church in Newcastle. As you would expect, the evidence of abuse at Anglican and Uniting Church same-sex schools has been of boys being molested. There has been evidence of abuse of girls in a Jewish school and other indidual groups so small that to call them a sect would be an exaggeration.

When you move to the community at large (and I can only go by the reports in law reports of prosecutions), the abuse of girls iseems to be vastly higher. But the terms of reference for the Commission are limited to investigation of abuse in institutions.

This week's hearings have been to take evidence from the Archbishops; the detailed evidence of abuse was given quite some time ago.

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 6695 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I should have added that there has also been strong evidence of abuse in Salvation Army homes, predominantly of boys. While there has been evidence given concerning abuse in public schools, that has not receivd anywhere near the publicity as that in church institutions and I cannot recall any details.

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 6695 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
This would still point to abuse being about access, not celibacy.

Not defending celibacy, either.

[ 11. February 2017, 04:43: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16911 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yes. While this thread is specifically about the RC church, the evidence before the enquiry has been of abuse in institutions across denominations and religions. It's all about access, gaining trust and grooming.

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 6695 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Huia
Shipmate
# 3473

 - Posted      Profile for Huia   Email Huia   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
This thread makes me very proud of my mother's cousin J, who, as a young woman approached the then Bishop to report abuse in a church home for young children in the mid 1950s.

I am not clear on the details, but I do know that the senior staff members involved were fired. I am not sure whether police were involved. I wish more people had the courage to stand up to such behaviour.

She was in her 90s when she told me, and was very angry about the continued abuses that came to light in various institutions.

[Overused] J [Votive] May she Rest In Peace

Huia

--------------------
Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

Posts: 10094 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

 - Posted      Profile for rolyn         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
That gets a [Overused] from me too.

Now that we have had time to reflect on the savile outrage over here, it becomes more to do with those who had the power and authority to stop it and did nothing.
Moreover, now that the Westminster scandal looks likely to never fully come out, there are those who are prepared to believe savile was deliberately protected because he knew too much.

--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence

Posts: 3082 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

 - Posted      Profile for simontoad   Email simontoad   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
I have the impression that one cause of pedophilia was the constant warnings against relationships with women. AFAIK those in training for the priesthood were not similarly warned about relationship with boys or other men.

Moo

Once again, No. The RCC's sin isn't having more paedophiles than other Christian sects, it isn't covering up the crimes. This has been a problem in all the major denominations. It is that they; as a huge, monolithic organization, were able to be more efficient and thorough in the coverup.
BTW, I think you'll find plenty of abuse cases were the victim was female. What might increase the male victim percentage in the RCC is misogyny.

I'm not sure that this is strictly true in Australia, but I admit that I'm too lazy and tired to look it up. One of the horrific things to come out in this latest report is the percentage of clergy who were convicted or were accused of child sexual abuse between the 1960's (not real sure) and today. In the priesthood, it was something like 7%. In the monastic orders, four of five were at 20%, and one order, St John of God I think, was at 40%.

40% of the brothers at St John of God, who specialised in caring for boys with intellectual disabilities between the dates mentioned, abused children in their care or were accused of it.

I could scream. I have screamed.

--------------------
Human

Posts: 1170 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm not certain which part of my quoted post you are refuting.
Let's start with a summary of my position.
I am refuting Moo's post suggesting that paedophelia is a result of RCC celibacy.
I am saying that all churches* have abuse problems. And that the RCC's scandal has more to do with their size and structure than other factors.
I am saying that the majority of abused are female, though I am willing to concede this is not the case within the RCC religious and administrative. This would be more due to access.


*Really any place of trust, but churches are almost uniquely more prone to non-familial abuse.

[ 11. February 2017, 18:54: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16911 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

 - Posted      Profile for rolyn         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The figures, when presented like that simontoad are truly appalling. Even if the CofE doesn't have a similar number skeletons waiting to tumble out of it's cupboards, (I doubt that it has), the general public can't really be blamed for lumping the whole of the church together and writing it off as a bunch of perverts.
Indeed, even the average member of a congregation must seriously be beginning to wonder how much longer they want to risk being tainted by association with an organisation that is accumulating such a shameful record as this.

--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence

Posts: 3082 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
the general public can't really be blamed for lumping the whole of the church together and writing it off as a bunch of perverts.

Yes they can. That is part of my point, let me make it simple for you as that appears necessary.
Abuse requires access. It thrives on trust. Any situation that has those will facilitate abuse and draw abusers.
Christianity is predicated on morality. So it is natural that coverups will occur, your church has done it and likely will again.
I don't care if you continue your petty intersectual obsession with vilifying each other.
I do care if you facilitate abuse in your own sects by doing so.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16911 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444

 - Posted      Profile for Latchkey Kid   Author's homepage   Email Latchkey Kid   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I am sad for my good Catholic friends who must be feeling betrayed.

--------------------
'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner

Posts: 2576 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Indeed, and for all the good, faithful Catholic priests, Religious, and laity, who are not abusers....

That applies to all other churches, of course.

IJ

--------------------
The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 9124 | From: Passing The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

 - Posted      Profile for Moo   Email Moo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

I am refuting Moo's post suggesting that paedophelia is a result of RCC celibacy.

That's not what I was suggesting. Priests in training are given far more extensive warnings about sexual contact with women and girls than they are about sexual contact with men and boys. The added emphasis on the sinfulness of heterosexual contacts creates the impression that sex with boys is not very serious.

I also have the impression that warnings about sexual activity under-emphasize the very bad effects this has on the boys involved. It seems that the warnings to priests are phrased in terms of the welfare of the priests' souls.

Moo

--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.

Posts: 20190 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

I am refuting Moo's post suggesting that paedophelia is a result of RCC celibacy.

That's not what I was suggesting. Priests in training are given far more extensive warnings about sexual contact with women and girls than they are about sexual contact with men and boys. The added emphasis on the sinfulness of heterosexual contacts creates the impression that sex with boys is not very serious.

I also have the impression that warnings about sexual activity under-emphasize the very bad effects this has on the boys involved. It seems that the warnings to priests are phrased in terms of the welfare of the priests' souls.

Moo

I am struggling to figure out exactly what you mean. It still reads, to me, that paedophilia is seen as a resort when heterosexual sex isn't available.
Or, at best, priests with paedo leanings don't get strong enough warning. Which I do not agree with. These are not children, they are adults brought up in cultures where kiddie fiddling is seen as bad. They are being taught in a system where safe guarding people, especially children, is seen as paramount.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16911 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

 - Posted      Profile for Moo   Email Moo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
These are not children, they are adults brought up in cultures where kiddie fiddling is seen as bad. They are being taught in a system where safe guarding people, especially children, is seen as paramount.

Up until recently, kiddie fiddling was not widely discussed, and provision for the protection of children was not in place.

Thank God things have changed, but many priests had their training before modern awareness kicked in.

Moo

--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.

Posts: 20190 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
teddybear
Shipmate
# 7842

 - Posted      Profile for teddybear   Author's homepage   Email teddybear   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
At the risk of resurrecting at least the odour of Defunct and Decaying Equines, I do wonder if the problem would be so bad and widespread if the RCC ordained women, and did not insist on clerical celibacy.

A bit late in the day for those poor souls affected, whether in Oz or elsewhere in the world. Not a good advert for what regards itself as the Universal Church.

IJ

Probably not a bit of difference, judging from the actions of the "good sisters" in Ireland and here in the USA as well. The sisters are paying out to those they abused here in the USA anyway.
Posts: 472 | From: Topeka, Kansas USA | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

 - Posted      Profile for simontoad   Email simontoad   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think celibacy is mad, but also a red herring in this area. I watched part of a show recently called "The Judas Iscariot Lunch" about a bunch of ex-Priest missionaries in their old age reflecting on their training and experiences on mission. This is very relevant to Australia I think as many of our Priests, both in parishes and other institutions, were sent out from Ireland.

I recommend the show to anyone who wants to get more insight into the Priesthood. In Australia, you can see it on iview now, as the show was shown on Compass.

--------------------
Human

Posts: 1170 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014  |  IP: Logged
Huia
Shipmate
# 3473

 - Posted      Profile for Huia   Email Huia   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Slightly off topic - and I know this is a personal reaction, but the terms kiddy fiddling and kiddy-fiddler are particularly abhorrent to me.

Somehow it seems to lessen the acknowledgement that what the abuser has done is rape or sexual assault, and it becomes something less explicit, and maybe even less serious. Adults are not described as being fiddled with only children.

Huia

--------------------
Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

Posts: 10094 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
No term lessens the heinous nature of the acts in my mind, but I see your point.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16911 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Kiddy-fiddler is the old term, going back to the days when the offences weren't viewed as seriously as we now recognise that they are. I think that's the basis of Huia's objection.

The Royal Commission has done an excellent job in pointing this out. Given that its terms of reference are limited to an enquiry into abuse in institutions, it has not looked at what happens in the wider community. Most child sexual abuse is committed within a family environment, much more so than in institutions. The most common offenders (at least judging by reports of appeal cases) are grandfathers or one of the mother's subsequent partners. What has to be done now is to draw this out and make it clear to children that they should not tolerate any sort of abusive behaviour but we confident that they will be listened to if they do report it.

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 6695 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

 - Posted      Profile for Moo   Email Moo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
One special problem with abuse in institutions is that one abuser is likely to have a large number of victims.

Abuse is much more common in families, but each abuser has few victims.

Moo

--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.

Posts: 20190 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yes - there was Gerald Ridsdale, an RC priest in Victoria who had multiple victims, from memory over 50 but could be much higher. He is currently serving multiple sentences and is likely to die in gaol. Many others, far too many others, who offended against large numbers of children. Those who offend against family members have many fewer victims although there was a recent appeal case where the prisoner had offended against a half dozen family members. A couple of years ago, there was a case involving a man who was projectionist at a Sydney suburban cinema - he had about 10 victims.

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 6695 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

 - Posted      Profile for Dark Knight   Email Dark Knight   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The term "paedophilia" has been used quite a few times in this thread as if it means the same thing as sexual abuse or rape of children. That may be the popular usage, but it isn't either accurate or helpful. People who struggle with sexual attraction to children which they cannot act on (because our societies correctly recognise that a child is not able to consent to a sexual relationship), are people who need help. Desire isn't criminal - action is. Lumping actual abusers together with that group will make it more unlikely that the latter will seek help, which only further endangers children.
Not to say that those who abuse and rape children don't need help, but they also need to be prosecuted for their crimes, and children need to be protected from them.

--------------------
Wronger than a drooling idiot on stupid juice - but I understand his argument.
mousethief (paraphrase)
----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

Posts: 2822 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

 - Posted      Profile for simontoad   Email simontoad   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Fair cop.

--------------------
Human

Posts: 1170 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014  |  IP: Logged


 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
Check out Reform magazine
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
  ship of fools