|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Compassionate Conservatives
|
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Yes, I'm not sure how deano can say that the Tories would eventually have given us various good things. They tend to be the ones who close them down.
Although, you have to also credit the old Liberals, who did bring in various stuff, e.g. pensions, in fact, you could describe Lloyd George as the founder of the welfare state. The Tories tend to chop it.
Just on an interesting side tangent, it's often forgotten that the Labour party's factional infighting meant that it was the last of the 3 main parties to promise in its 1945 manifesto to implement the Beveridge report.
The Tories and the Liberals both pledged to set up the NHS while Labour was fighting with itself about whether the welfare state wasn't something that could wait as the main priority should be nationalisation of industry. I mean, well done to Mr Attlee for winning the argument in his own party, but the provisions of Beveridge would have happened pretty well regardless of who was in office.
Even though this is hell, I must confess that having just gone back to check I was right in my memory of what happened I can't actually find the source. Therefore, I'm quite happy to be wrong on this but if I've dreamed it then I really need better dreams!
--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
|
Posted
Got it - Wiki on the Welfare State says Liberals, then Tories, then Labour FWIW. I thought it was unlikely I'd imagined it - the story was far too specific!
--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
The Liberal welfare reforms were pretty impressive really, and, some argue, like a firework giving off splendid sparks before falling to earth! Leading up to WWI, I suppose. Oh, I am forgetting the glorious recrudescence in the coalition government with Cameron, how could I.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Welsh Assembly
Despite widespread political support, the Welsh Assembly was approved in a referendum with a 50.3% 'Yes' vote on something like a 50% turnout. Given Mr Blair's recent comments about Brexit, I'm surprised he and fellow Blairites haven't called for a second referendum in Wales as the first wasn't clear enough...
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
|
Posted
The first rule about referenda, for politicians of all colours, is that they are only binding when they go your way.
--------------------
Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
FWIW, wealth creation has continued in a big way for the last 35 - 40 years, until the greedy bastards tripped themselves up. What has accelerated since the monetarists got their claws in is the way that the fruits of this have remained in the hands of the few, rather than being shared for the common good as had been the case in the USA, Britain and Western Europe as a whole since 1945. It was after all in response to what had happened before the Wall Street Crash (sooner in some countries than in others).
The neatest trick of all is that the greedy bastards who brought about the 2007-08 credit crunch (yes, you Fred Goodwin) have suffered a damn sight less than the poor.
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
The Liberal welfare reforms were pretty impressive really, and, some argue, like a firework giving off splendid sparks before falling to earth! Leading up to WWI, I suppose. Oh, I am forgetting the glorious recrudescence in the coalition government with Cameron, how could I.
I seem to remember that the Liberal plan for state education was to include all schools. Yes, Eton, Harrow, Winchester, Roedean, prep schools, the lot.
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I’m working at the moment, creating wealth for the private company who is my current client.
No. The private company is the wealth creator, remember. Workers don't create wealth. You aren't creating wealth. Only businesses create wealth.
If you start thinking that you're creating wealth you might start wondering why the wealth you're creating is going to someone else out of which they graciously pay you. You might start thinking that you should be getting the wealth you create. And then before you know it you're half way down the slippery slope to Marxism.
No. Remember: businesses create wealth. Not workers like you.
--------------------
we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
deano
princess
# 12063
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Got it - Wiki on the Welfare State says Liberals, then Tories, then Labour FWIW. I thought it was unlikely I'd imagined it - the story was far too specific!
The Labour Party was probably waiting for a woman leader to implement it...
--------------------
"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I’m working at the moment, creating wealth for the private company who is my current client.
No. The private company is the wealth creator, remember. Workers don't create wealth. You aren't creating wealth. Only businesses create wealth.
If you start thinking that you're creating wealth you might start wondering why the wealth you're creating is going to someone else out of which they graciously pay you. You might start thinking that you should be getting the wealth you create. And then before you know it you're half way down the slippery slope to Marxism.
No. Remember: businesses create wealth. Not workers like you.
I thought for one surreal moment that deano was going to say that the economic value of a good or service is determined by the total amount of socially necessary labour required to produce it, rather than by the use or pleasure its owner gets from it.
As you were.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
Whereas Mrs T and Mayhem have done such a wonderful job in dismantling the welfare state, the NHS, social housing, state education and all the rest that it seems impossible to imagine them putting them into place in the first place.
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
deano
princess
# 12063
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Whereas Mrs T and Mayhem have done such a wonderful job in dismantling the welfare state, the NHS, social housing, state education and all the rest that it seems impossible to imagine them putting them into place in the first place.
Yes because they don't exist anymore.
Oh, hang on....
--------------------
"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Whereas Mrs T and Mayhem have done such a wonderful job in dismantling the welfare state, the NHS, social housing, state education and all the rest that it seems impossible to imagine them putting them into place in the first place.
Yes because they don't exist anymore.
Oh, hang on....
Don't get sick deano ...
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
molopata
The Ship's jack
# 9933
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I suspect the Labour Party looked at women and asked them to fetch a cloth if something needed dusting.
I suggest you go and talk to Kezia Dugdale (you know, Labour Party leader). She may push you through that glass ceiling from above. If you're lucky there will still be an NHS to treat the lacerations you'll receive from the broken glass.
In all fairness, Kezia Dugdale is an example of promoting women for the sake of promoting women. Her spectacular incompetence does a disservice to aspiring, capable women anywhere.
--------------------
... The Respectable
Posts: 1718 | From: the abode of my w@ndering mind | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
molopata
The Ship's jack
# 9933
|
Posted
I might add though, that that does not make Deano right.
--------------------
... The Respectable
Posts: 1718 | From: the abode of my w@ndering mind | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by molopata:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I suspect the Labour Party looked at women and asked them to fetch a cloth if something needed dusting.
I suggest you go and talk to Kezia Dugdale (you know, Labour Party leader). She may push you through that glass ceiling from above. If you're lucky there will still be an NHS to treat the lacerations you'll receive from the broken glass.
In all fairness, Kezia Dugdale is an example of promoting women for the sake of promoting women. Her spectacular incompetence does a disservice to aspiring, capable women anywhere.
Well, at least she is nowhere near as incompetent as Theresa Mayhem.
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
molopata
The Ship's jack
# 9933
|
Posted
Agreed. Although Wacky May is arguably more effective in her incompetence.
--------------------
... The Respectable
Posts: 1718 | From: the abode of my w@ndering mind | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
No, she's just been put in a position where her incompetence is dangerous.
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by molopata:
I might add though, that that does not make Deano right.
He is only posting because his viagra prescription hasn't been refilled. He'll be done flaming when his wrist gets tired.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
deano
princess
# 12063
|
Posted
Just to ram home the point about why....
quote:
anyone who is working on an average wage, (occasionally to regularly) sick, has a youngster under 18 or a close relative over about 70 would vote Tory.
Two of doc's "highlights" of post-war policies that have improved that person's lot in life were...
The Welsh Assembly
Banning fox hunting
I admit that to the no borders, meat is murder, Marxists but scared to admit it types that make up the majority of the ship they are shining beacons of policies, but to the 'jams' that Mr Cheesy described above they are nothing but a waste of time and money and irrelevant to them.
That's why voters are leaving Labour in droves.
Most shippies of course cannot admit to that. They simply cannot believe that their politics are irrelevant to the majority.
The admission of their wrongness would depress them hugely.
To avoid that they convince themselves - and the rest of the ship's choir - that these voters are not clever enough to understand, and that it would be better to not let them vote at all. The votes should only be given to those who are educated like they are, and who will therefore vote the right way.
I suspect though that thise shippies would not admit to believing that, but they do skirt around it when voting goes against them such as the Conservatives being elected, Brexit and Trump.
It's called being out of touch with reality.
--------------------
"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Just to ram home the point about why.... I'm a complete numpty and a walking advert for why intelligent people who care about something more than making the rich richer should vote for anyone other than the Tories/UKIP
I just finished off your sentence properly for you. You can thank me by buggering off, or even better by voting Green at the next election (cos, they're socialist with a woman leader, you'll like them).
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I admit that to the no borders, meat is murder, Marxists but scared to admit it types that make up the majority of the ship they are shining beacons of policies, but to the 'jams' that Mr Cheesy described above they are nothing but a waste of time and money and irrelevant to them.
Fuck off. I am neither a Marxist nor believe meat is murder. You, on the other hand, are a turd.
quote:
That's why voters are leaving Labour in droves.
Or it could just be people like you are actually brainless and are turkeys voting for Christmas.
quote:
Most shippies of course cannot admit to that. They simply cannot believe that their politics are irrelevant to the majority.
Oh no! Let me re-examine my principles.. employment rights, maternity rights, a working NHS, sickness benefits.. yeah, those are all fucking irrelevant to the majority.
quote:
The admission of their wrongness would depress them hugely.
Fuck off.
quote:
blah, blah, blah, blather blather
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I suspect the Labour Party looked at women and asked them to fetch a cloth if something needed dusting. [Citation needed]
I'm in the real world. [Citation needed]
Then explain why it is Conservative Governments who have actually closed more of those loopeholes than any Labour Government ever did. [Citation needed]
Governments don’t create wealth. They don’t make money. They only take money from people who do make money. These businesses are called wealth-creators. [Citation needed]
If you take too much money from wealth-crating companies, or call them nasty names like capitalistic pigs, they will most likely move away from your country and employ people in another country. [Citation needed]
Which brings me back to my original point. Labour has had many administrations since the war and they have accomplished so very little. [Citation needed]
They have failed time and time again to do anything to make things better to any kind of average person except that once. [Citation needed]
There you go, Deano, fixed it for you.
Care to back up your assertions or should we just take your word for it?
AFZ
--------------------
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
Labour has formed governments for 30 of the 71 (and a bit) years since the war. The first and boldest was when Britain was utterly broke and it's fair to say that it set things up nicely for the next twenty-five years until the benefits of North Sea Oil were squandered on the altar of low direct taxation.
I'm not sure the 1997 - 2010 government can be termed Labour anyway. Clement Attlee let alone Nye Bevan wouldn't have recognised it. Even that darling of the left, Denis Healey, reckoned Blair had just "one good year" in him.
That means a net seventeen of seventy one years of something resembling socialism. Whatever has fucked up Britain since the Second War isn't deano's caricature of the Labour Party.
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
deano
princess
# 12063
|
Posted
The ad hominem childish name calling is merely the internet reflection of throwing dustbins through McDonald's windows when the electorate vote against socialism.
The Conservatives win the general election, the left responds with violent riots.
The electorate votes for Brexit, the left responds with violent riots.
The electorate vite for Donald Trump, the left responds with violent riots.
And so on down through the ages. The irony of course is that lefties see themselves as peace-loving, hanky-wringing gentlefolk, when the reality is that they resort to violence whenever they don't get their own way.
On the ship whenever a conservative points out that the electorate is leaving the left in droves, and we get the equivalent of the violence; childish insults and changing the content of posts.
None of the insults work of course. I am not walking away just because of little bit of name calling. Sorry but there you go.
In any case I feel I need to be here to point out why your politics don't result in the electoral success you feel is your due, because quite a few of you don't appear to have that self-awareness.
Anyway, I'm off to beat the slave child we had smuggled in, because they haven't given my jackboots a sufficiently good shine. It's so hard to get decent staff these days don't you find?
--------------------
"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
|
Posted
In Deano's world, apparently, if a tiny minority engage in violence, "the left" is violent.
You know, I was kicked in by a white, male Tory once. Evidently all white, male Tories are violent.
Deano openly boasts he spat in Arthur Scargill's pint once. So much for his graceful acceptance of the NUM's democratic choice of leader eh?
Why am I responding to this cretin?
--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
deano
princess
# 12063
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
In Deano's world, apparently, if a tiny minority engage in violence, "the left" is violent.
You know, I was kicked in by a white, male Tory once. Evidently all white, male Tories are violent.
Deano openly boasts he spat in Arthur Scargill's pint once. So much for his graceful acceptance of the NUM's democratic choice of leader eh?
Why am I responding to this cretin?
I don't deny we on the right do use violence as a solution if required, usually by using the armed forces.
But my point is the left try to stake a claim to the moral high ground by painting themselves as peace-loving fluffy bunnies who NEVER resort to violence, when that is a lie.
We might use violence if required. The left use it whilst lying through their back teeth that they don't.
The stench of hypocrisy from the left is enough to make one nauseous.
--------------------
"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
In Deano's world, apparently, if a tiny minority engage in violence, "the left" is violent.
Added to which, if there doesn't happen to have been a convenient riot coinciding with some election result he just invents one. I think he must be trying for the position of press secretary for Mrs May, who seems to be such a big admirer of Trump and his press corps who are so skilled at "alternative facts".
And, of course, he does conveniently forget such things as "the right win Brexit, so go out and murder some Polish guy". But, of course, a broken window of a fast "food" outlet interferes with business making lots of profit they can hide in off-shore accounts, which is much more important than mere human lives.
We know the Conservative government doesn't care about people. Why else do they shove someone who's lived in the UK for 30 years onto a plane with £12 in her pocket, nowhere to stay at the other end of the flight, leaving her sick husband, children and grandchildren behind? Or, pull a bright student from university months before her finals to put her on a plane to a country she barely knows? Or, consider millions of EU nationals living here legally as bargaining chips in some form of game with the rest of the EU?
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I don't deny we on the right do use violence as a solution if required, usually by using the armed forces.
Come see the violence inherent in the system.
[ 28. February 2017, 13:33: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
Care to back up your assertions or should we just take your word for it?
AFZ
I regard myself as left of centre, so to the extent that there are sides here, AFZ, I'm on yours.
But why does Deano need anything further to back up his assertions than that Labour are not in power and don't look likely to ever be in power again under their current leadership.
Isn't there currently a thread in Purgatory about why the poor vote for policies that make them worse off?
The question is how many of the UK's poorest really aspire to a more equal society, rather than aspiring to doing better themselves, even if that means someone else ends up back down where they once were?
This is not a criticism as such - this is human nature. We have to run the prisoners' dilemma multiple times over on a computer to prove that two people co-operating and settling for slightly less than than the best possible outcome for themselves is best for everyone in the long run. But we don't get to live our lives multiple times over in a simulation. So while we might "know" on one level that a fairer society is better for all in the end, we don't necessarily *feel* it.
So social justice, and politics as a route to social justice, are all very well in theory. But only grace can save us.
--------------------
And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
|
Posted
Except, Deano, the left in Western Europe and the USA, in the main, do not use violence, in the way you describe.
A few individuals do. By your logic, no-one can every claim to be non-violent if at any point anyone espousing a cause to which they also adhere does something violent somewhere.
Hypocrisy as a charge does not stick. If at the same time as espousing non-violence, the same individuals were actually engaging in or advocating violence, then it would. But what you are doing is ascribing every action of a group to every individual in the group, and then, surprise surprise, finding contradictions.
It's like me saying you advocate the murder of Labour MPs because other people who share some of your views regarding Islam murder Labour MPs, and that anything you say about the non-acceptability of murdering MPs is hypocritical, because some on "The Right" do murder MPs.
Or, more simply, you're a fucking tosser.
[ 28. February 2017, 13:50: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
The stench of hypocrisy from the left is enough to make one nauseous.
I can assure you that you are nauseous but I suspect you mean nauseated. (Although the OED does concede the common usage).
I think that some backing for the assertions is required as basically, as far as I'm concerned, each of them is bullocks. I am happy to be persuaded otherwise...
AFZ
--------------------
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
|
Posted
"Bullocks" ??!!
I know this is the place of farm implements and such like but am suspecting the spell checker has provided us with a giggle there AFZ
--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rosa Gallica officinalis
Shipmate
# 3886
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell: Pauline Latham MP ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
There are no words to express how despicable this woman is.
I don't know about no words. I've heard members of her own party in the county refer to her as The Odious rather than The Honourable.
--------------------
Come for tea, come for tea, my people.
Posts: 874 | From: The Hemlock Hideout | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
"Bullocks" ??!!
I know this is the place of farm implements and such like but am suspecting the spell checker has provided us with a giggle there AFZ
bloody corrective text you are a mother forklift!
AFZ
--------------------
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
I can assure you that you are nauseous but I suspect you mean nauseated. (Although the OED does concede the common usage).
I hear you brother. My inner pedant hates the word nauseous. And it is a genuine English word. But, once again it demonstrates we have been overcome by cockwombles.
--------------------
Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.
Posts: 3511 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
The question is how many of the UK's poorest really aspire to a more equal society, rather than aspiring to doing better themselves, even if that means someone else ends up back down where they once were?
I suspect the answer to that is "very few".
As an unofficial ending to The Red Flag has it: "the working class can kiss my ass/I've got the foreman's job at last".
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Phantom Flan Flinger
Shipmate
# 8891
|
Posted
Alright, but apart from:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Minimum wage
Scottish devolution
Welsh Assembly
Good Friday Agreement
Sure Start
Abolished Section 28
Banned fox hunting
Bus passes for the over 60s
Free museum entry
Free nursery places
Low inflation
Youth unemployment cut by 75%
36000 more teachers
85000 more nurses
Introduced A&E waiting time target which is mostly met
500000 fewer children in poverty
Crime falls by 1/3
Civil partnerships
Abolished lower limit on Gift Aid
Clean air, water and beaches
Increased maternity leave and introduced paternity leave
What have Labour ever done for us?
--------------------
http://www.faith-hope-and-confusion.com/
Posts: 1020 | From: Leicester, England | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
Alright, but apart from:
[see above for the list]
What have Labour ever done for us?
EM's point was that people want to do better themselves, rather than wanting a more equal or equitable society for everyone.
Of the 21 items on the list you just quoted:
9 either do not concern me at all or are things I dislike (e.g. the foxhunting ban).
7 are nice to read about in the news but don't have any real impact on my life.
3 could possibly affect me in the future, but not for many years.
That leaves only free museum entry and low inflation. I regard the former as a good thing, but wouldn't be too upset if it went away as I could easily afford to pay for entry on the few occasions when I go to museums. Low inflation is something that all parties want, so isn't really unique to Labour.
I know I'm only one person, but even so listing a bunch of things that aren't important to people isn't much of a way to convince then that Labour would be the best option for them. And that's without considering the point that many of those things are done now, so we don't need Labour to do them again.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
It's interesting how this thread has witnessed a huge tu quoque. It's supposed to be about compassionate conservatives, intended sarcastically I guess, but has switched to talking about what Labour has ever done for us.
I wonder if Conservatives are shy about talking about the actual topic? I don't know, as probably they could cite various beneficial things that the Tories have done.
But tu quoques are rampant on the internet. If I ask, why is X so ridiculous, I can expect the reply, well, what about your Y. I don't really know if this indicates a failure in argument, or just a habit.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
EM's point was that people want to do better themselves, rather than wanting a more equal or equitable society for everyone.
And that there is the legacy of Thatcher and the reason society is screwed. It's the tragedy of the commons writ large.
If you want a working NHS, you just can't have some arseholes wanting to better themselves at the expense of everyone else.
You can do that on an island with a tiny population; you can't with any justification do it in the UK - with its history of exploitation of workers in order to make wealthy people richer.
And if you don't think workers were exploited, read a damn book.
quote:
Of the 21 items on the list you just quoted:
9 either do not concern me at all or are things I dislike (e.g. the foxhunting ban).
7 are nice to read about in the news but don't have any real impact on my life.
3 could possibly affect me in the future, but not for many years.
Woopie do. What a surprise, the Tory bastards don't fancy paying for healthcare for everyone or schools for everyone or healthcare for everyone - because from their leafy suburbs and jobs (oh, did I tell you, I've just returned from Dubai where I have been negotiating a massive contract, you wouldn't believe what I have there, you wouldn't believe what they pay me - silly money - pass the progreso would you?) they can't see beyond the end of their own noses.
These same people are the ones who want to pay the least tax, get the biggest government contracts and are least willing to pay for elder care - because somehow the state owes them. Fuck off already.
quote:
That leaves only free museum entry and low inflation. I regard the former as a good thing, but wouldn't be too upset if it went away as I could easily afford to pay for entry on the few occasions when I go to museums. Low inflation is something that all parties want, so isn't really unique to Labour.
Well, what a surprise! There is another thing you don't use and you don't want to pay for!
quote:
I know I'm only one person, but even so listing a bunch of things that aren't important to people isn't much of a way to convince then that Labour would be the best option for them. And that's without considering the point that many of those things are done now, so we don't need Labour to do them again.
Oh yes! I am now enlightened! I totally understand!
YOU'RE A FUCKING PRICK.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
deano
princess
# 12063
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Well, what a surprise! There is another thing you don't use and you don't want to pay for!
There's plenty of things I'm willing to pay for even if we don't use them. Trident for example.
--------------------
"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Well, what a surprise! There is another thing you don't use and you don't want to pay for!
There's plenty of things I'm willing to pay for even if we don't use them. Trident for example.
OK then, can you explain why? It's a sizeable slice of government spending let alone the defence budget.
And that's before we get on to whether it is independent or has ever deterred anyone.
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
The Tory arses are quite willing to spread out the bills for their failed policies, they're just empty handed when it comes to chipping in for the things that everyone else needs (which, coincidently, are those things that they can afford to do privately, that they're making money from supplying or both).
The only reason we're leaving the EU (God help us) is because there is a cohort of Tory grandees who think it is a great wheeze to make a financial killing. There is plenty of money to be made from a crisis.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
The other one became leader by default when all the other candidates dropped out.
although had the vote gone ahead with the two names that were on the ballot at the time, they would have elected 2.
--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
although had the vote gone ahead with the two names that were on the ballot at the time, they would have elected 2.
When they've elected a leader who isn't white, hasn't been to a private school and/or oxbridge, isn't born into wealth or all of the above - then they'll have something to crow about.
Yes, ok the Tories have elected a female. A female who is at the helm of the most bigoted, most xenophobic and most brainless administrations in living memory. Well done.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
When they've elected a leader who isn't white, hasn't been to a private school and/or oxbridge, isn't born into wealth or all of the above - then they'll have something to crow about.
Well, John Major ticks every box except colour.
--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
|
Posted
Also, although he was a member of the CofE (from the age of 12), they have rather famously been lead by someone who was racially a Sephardic Jew, and who faced a lot of prejudice because of it. That's about as close as any British major party has come yet to non-white leaders.
--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I wonder if Conservatives are shy about talking about the actual topic?
I'm not a Conservative but certainly, the topic of the thread - compassion - is worth discussing.
Supposing we take Margaret Thatcher and Jeremy Corbyn as representing two ends of a political spectrum (though I would argue that whether that is even the case should be up for debate). Which was/is more compassionate? Can we form a fair view based on their public lives and politics, and if we can, what would that view be?
--------------------
And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
