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Source: (consider it) Thread: Compassionate Conservatives
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
EM's point was that people want to do better themselves, rather than wanting a more equal or equitable society for everyone.

And that there is the legacy of Thatcher and the reason society is screwed. It's the tragedy of the commons writ large.
Perhaps, but that's the world we live in and the electorate Labour has to reach.

quote:
YOU'RE A FUCKING PRICK.
Me and a lot of other people that you need to convince to vote for Labour if you ever want the party to be in Government again. Do you think insults are going to achieve that?

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Also, although he was a member of the CofE (from the age of 12), they have rather famously been lead by someone who was racially a Sephardic Jew, and who faced a lot of prejudice because of it. That's about as close as any British major party has come yet to non-white leaders.

And Michael Howard is a practising Jew, of course, though I don't think anyone would claim he isn't 'white'. He's grammar school educated too, along with Edward Heath, Margaret Thatcher, John Major (as you mention above), William Hague and, I think, Theresa May.
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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Me and a lot of other people that you need to convince to vote for Labour if you ever want the party to be in Government again. Do you think insults are going to achieve that?

If you think politics is only about pandering to your tiny little life and ignoring everyone else because who gives a shit about them - then you're part of the problem not part of the solution.

If you don't like being called a vapid, selfish Tory bastard then don't be one.

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arse

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betjemaniac
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Also, although he was a member of the CofE (from the age of 12), they have rather famously been lead by someone who was racially a Sephardic Jew, and who faced a lot of prejudice because of it. That's about as close as any British major party has come yet to non-white leaders.

And Michael Howard is a practising Jew, of course, though I don't think anyone would claim he isn't 'white'. He's grammar school educated too, along with Edward Heath, Margaret Thatcher, John Major (as you mention above), William Hague and, I think, Theresa May.
Hague went to a comp - Wikipedia rather naughtily has him down as going to Wath-upon-Dearne Grammar but given the school was formally redesignated as a comprehensive in 1972 (when Hague was 11) then even if he did go there when it was a grammar it can only have been for literally a matter of days.

FWIW the school's wiki page makes a distinction between former pupils of the grammar and comp days and lists Hague in the latter.

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And is it true? For if it is....

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
If you think politics is only about pandering to your tiny little life and ignoring everyone else because who gives a shit about them - then you're part of the problem not part of the solution.

If you don't like being called a vapid, selfish Tory bastard then don't be one.

It's almost as if you think Tories are the only people who vote based on what they think is best for themselves. Or is there a category in your thinking for vapid, selfish Labour bastards?

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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I have always assumed (perhaps somewhat naively) that part of British values has always included concern and care for others, and considering the needs of others - especially when the cost to oneself is small. As a nation we are generous, supporting charities that benefit others. I don't think many people give up those ideals when they enter the voting booth. I'm sure that for the majority of Tories and those who vote for them pure selfishness is not part of who they are - they recognise the value in everyone having a quality education, access to healthcare, welfare when needed, that as a nation we should help refugees etc. Mostly the disagreement with the rest of us is about the details of what is the best, and the best way to achieve it.

I didn't intend to call all Conservatives to Hell. My target was quite specifically a small minority who appear to have let go of common decency and respect for others. There have been some outrageous things said recently - my OP highlighted comments about child refugees, the disabled, protection of women against domestic abuse - things which even a large number of Conservatives said were unacceptable. That was the target of my OP< and yes the title was chosen to drip with sarcasm, enough that those drips now form a small sea where they've accumulated.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It's almost as if you think Tories are the only people who vote based on what they think is best for themselves. Or is there a category in your thinking for vapid, selfish Labour bastards?

Because socialism is built on the idea of working people standing up for each other - and the greater good - rather than the wishes of middle class jerks who think everyone has the privileges and freedoms that they do.

In voting on socialist principles, one is by definition voting for something that is in the interests of a large number of people - for example maternity rights.

You might be the kind of arsewipe who doesn't need maternity rights because you're protected from the real world in your cappuccino suburb and your massive wage. Back in the real world where a large number of people work for wages which are less than the median, these rights matter.

You might indeed not care to pay to keep libraries and museums free. Back in the real world where large numbers of people do not earn enough to pay for cultural enrichment, these free-to-access services matter. Why should anyone give a shit what you want to pay for as you broadcast from your ivory tower?

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arse

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:


I didn't intend to call all Conservatives to Hell. My target was quite specifically a small minority who appear to have let go of common decency and respect for others. There have been some outrageous things said recently - my OP highlighted comments about child refugees, the disabled, protection of women against domestic abuse - things which even a large number of Conservatives said were unacceptable. That was the target of my OP< and yes the title was chosen to drip with sarcasm, enough that those drips now form a small sea where they've accumulated.

Well you are wrong. Tories are utterly devoid of compassion. That's not a fault of their political persuasion, it's a feature. They want to do as little as possible for anyone else, period.

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arse

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:


I didn't intend to call all Conservatives to Hell. My target was quite specifically a small minority who appear to have let go of common decency and respect for others. There have been some outrageous things said recently - my OP highlighted comments about child refugees, the disabled, protection of women against domestic abuse - things which even a large number of Conservatives said were unacceptable. That was the target of my OP< and yes the title was chosen to drip with sarcasm, enough that those drips now form a small sea where they've accumulated.

Well you are wrong. Tories are utterly devoid of compassion. That's not a fault of their political persuasion, it's a feature. They want to do as little as possible for anyone else, period.
And here's where you and I must agree to differ too. The modern neo-liberal policies have had many of the effects you mention but they are far from being confined to the Conservative Party. The Blair/Mandelson Labour Party and the post Charles Kennedy LibDems went that way too. As others have pointed out they give a false hope of wealth which deano, Marvin and a few more here but tens of millions across the country are clinging too. Who knows: they might win the Euromillions lottery, it's as likely.

I'm old enough to remember "one nation" Tories: people like Ted Heath, Geoffrey Howe, Francis Pym and any number of lesser lights including personal friends who are not at all pleased at the way their party has been taken over by a bunch of dodgy traders that make Arfur Daley and Delboy Trotter look entirely legitimate.

Then again, if you look at Tory government policies over the years, and consider recent actions like their recent treatment of a woman married to a British citizen, granted indefinite leave to remain being bundled into a van and dumped on a plane, it is hard to argue with Nye Bevan's assessment that they are "Lower than vermin", even if Nye wasn't averse to hyperbole.

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I have always assumed (perhaps somewhat naively) that part of British values has always included concern and care for others, and considering the needs of others - especially when the cost to oneself is small. As a nation we are generous, supporting charities that benefit others. I don't think many people give up those ideals when they enter the voting booth. I'm sure that for the majority of Tories and those who vote for them pure selfishness is not part of who they are - they recognise the value in everyone having a quality education, access to healthcare, welfare when needed, that as a nation we should help refugees etc. Mostly the disagreement with the rest of us is about the details of what is the best, and the best way to achieve it.

I didn't intend to call all Conservatives to Hell. My target was quite specifically a small minority who appear to have let go of common decency and respect for others. There have been some outrageous things said recently - my OP highlighted comments about child refugees, the disabled, protection of women against domestic abuse - things which even a large number of Conservatives said were unacceptable. That was the target of my OP< and yes the title was chosen to drip with sarcasm, enough that those drips now form a small sea where they've accumulated.

I both agree and disagree. On an individual level, of course there are conservatives with compassion.
I would argue that on a party level, this is irrelevant. The policies supported in government make true compassion difficult, if not impossible. The Conservatives* are not yet Republicans,** but they have been heading there as fast as their feet will fly.

*UK version
**American version

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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molopata

The Ship's jack
# 9933

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The Conservatives are not yet Republicans, but they have been heading there as fast as their feet will fly.

And on some issues have meanwhile already overshot them. You know times are bad when you see a TV interview with villain emeritus George W. Bush and think, "at last a voice of moderation and reason".

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... The Respectable

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by molopata:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The Conservatives are not yet Republicans, but they have been heading there as fast as their feet will fly.

And on some issues have meanwhile already overshot them. You know times are bad when you see a TV interview with villain emeritus George W. Bush and think, "at last a voice of moderation and reason".
When I look at the current UK government, and that of David Cameron, even Margaret Thatcher had some compassion about her.
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deano
princess
# 12063

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Well you are wrong. Tories are utterly devoid of compassion. That's not a fault of their political persuasion, it's a feature. They want to do as little as possible for anyone else, period.

Unfortunately you are part of the "anyone else", so it's no wonder we want to help. Some of our help might splash on to you and that would be wrong.

Perhaps if you stopped being part of the "anyone else" we might want to help more.

Do you live in ill-health and poverty knobcheese? I hope so. That would amuse me - especially if I knew you weren't being accidentally helped.

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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Do you even know what the words mean that tumble out of your keyboard? Do they make sense inside your head or is it just that you've been drinking under your desk?

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arse

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deano
princess
# 12063

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Do you even know what the words mean that tumble out of your keyboard? Do they make sense inside your head or is it just that you've been drinking under your desk?

No, all the words make sense knobcheese. Just because YOU don't understad them, doesn't mean everyie else is as thick as you are.

Everyone else understands exaclty what I mean. But let me make it even clearer, just for you. There were two main points...


1) I don't want to pay any taxes, just in case any of the money gets spent on you.

2) I hope that you are poorly and poor, because it would heighten the pleasure I get from (1) above.

There. I don't know how I can make it any clearer without using diagrams.

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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You're a real sick fuck Deano. Have you ever considered the possibility you might be a sociopath? In your case it'd almost be an excuse for being such a knob.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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deano
princess
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You're a real sick fuck Deano. Have you ever considered the possibility you might be a sociopath? In your case it'd almost be an excuse for being such a knob.

But I don't feel poorly so no.

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by deano:


1) I don't want to pay any taxes, just in case any of the money gets spent on you.

Yeah, way to go with that extremism, dickwad.

quote:

2) I hope that you are poorly and poor, because it would heighten the pleasure I get from (1) above.

There. I don't know how I can make it any clearer without using diagrams.

You're a dangerous, sick, xenophobic bastard. If there was any justice in the world, you'd either be in prison or having counseling for your sociopathy.

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arse

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You're a real sick fuck Deano. Have you ever considered the possibility you might be a sociopath? In your case it'd almost be an excuse for being such a knob.

But I don't feel poorly so no.
Oh that we could see ourselves as others see us.

You realise that Cheesy, if his reaction was anything like mine, understood your words perfectly well but struggled to believe, despite all the previous evidence you've provided, that you were quite that much of a cunt?

[ 02. March 2017, 12:32: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Boogie

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# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I don't want to pay any taxes, just in case any of the money gets spent on you.


There it is.

The centre of Conservative lack of compassion. They don't want to give. Even if that giving involves taxes which benefit everyone, including themselves.

They say things like 'charity begins at home' - which means charity stays at home and never looks to those who are seen as 'other'.

Thus Brexit, thus Trump, thus all lack of social compassion, thus fear of immigration and people with any kind of difference. Their fear list is long. Politicians love to exploit it.

Of course, when they themselves NEED social care they come over all entitled.


[Roll Eyes] [Roll Eyes]

[ 02. March 2017, 13:11: Message edited by: Boogie ]

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It's almost as if you think Tories are the only people who vote based on what they think is best for themselves. Or is there a category in your thinking for vapid, selfish Labour bastards?

Because socialism is built on the idea of working people standing up for each other - and the greater good - rather than the wishes of middle class jerks who think everyone has the privileges and freedoms that they do.

In voting on socialist principles, one is by definition voting for something that is in the interests of a large number of people - for example maternity rights.

Do you seriously think everyone who votes Labour is voting on socialist principles rather than what's in their own best interests?

[Killing me] [Killing me] [Killing me]

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Hail Gallaxhar

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mr cheesy
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Nope, parts of the Labour party sold their soul to the Tory free market bollocks.

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arse

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It's almost as if you think Tories are the only people who vote based on what they think is best for themselves. Or is there a category in your thinking for vapid, selfish Labour bastards?

Because socialism is built on the idea of working people standing up for each other - and the greater good - rather than the wishes of middle class jerks who think everyone has the privileges and freedoms that they do.

In voting on socialist principles, one is by definition voting for something that is in the interests of a large number of people - for example maternity rights.

Do you seriously think everyone who votes Labour is voting on socialist principles rather than what's in their own best interests?

[Killing me] [Killing me] [Killing me]

No, but you know what? In the ranks of being a selfish prick, voting for policies that help you as a rich person at the expense of the poor and vulnerable rates a damned site higher than voting for policies that help you as a poor person at the expense of rich people who won't be turning up at the nearest food bank as a result.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It's almost as if you think Tories are the only people who vote based on what they think is best for themselves. Or is there a category in your thinking for vapid, selfish Labour bastards?

Because socialism is built on the idea of working people standing up for each other - and the greater good - rather than the wishes of middle class jerks who think everyone has the privileges and freedoms that they do.

In voting on socialist principles, one is by definition voting for something that is in the interests of a large number of people - for example maternity rights.

Do you seriously think everyone who votes Labour is voting on socialist principles rather than what's in their own best interests?

[Killing me] [Killing me] [Killing me]

I'm trying to remember which Labour politician said that if they were successful they would become unelectable, as people would start to take for granted most of the things labour governments had put in place. I'm sure it's happening.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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In which case, ironically, our hope is in the Tories successfully dismantling sufficient of what has been achieved.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
In the ranks of being a selfish prick, voting for policies that help you as a rich person at the expense of the poor and vulnerable rates a damned site higher than voting for policies that help you as a poor person at the expense of rich people who won't be turning up at the nearest food bank as a result.

I think voting for whichever party makes your own life better without caring about the impact on anyone else is exactly the same sin (if sin it be) regardless of which party that happens to be.

If you're going to criticise selfish voting then you can't really restrict that criticism only to those whose selfishness causes them to vote other than how you think they should.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
In the ranks of being a selfish prick, voting for policies that help you as a rich person at the expense of the poor and vulnerable rates a damned site higher than voting for policies that help you as a poor person at the expense of rich people who won't be turning up at the nearest food bank as a result.

I think voting for whichever party makes your own life better without caring about the impact on anyone else is exactly the same sin (if sin it be) regardless of which party that happens to be.

If you're going to criticise selfish voting then you can't really restrict that criticism only to those whose selfishness causes them to vote other than how you think they should.

It's not about that. It's about asking the question "if this vote benefits me, whom does it disadvantage?"

I really do think that pulling the rug out from under desperately ill people as the government is now doing is way, way, worse than say increasing the tax on earnings over £100,000 by 10p in the pound. Perhaps you don't. I'm perfectly comfortable with people voting for the latter, especially when the alternative is being one of the people shafted by the former. I am not at all comfortable with wealthy people voting to keep their taxes low knowing it will be achieved by cuts to disability benefits and so on. The moral equivalence you are trying to draw is utter bollocks.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17610 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I'm trying to remember which Labour politician said that if they were successful they would become unelectable, as people would start to take for granted most of the things labour governments had put in place. I'm sure it's happening.

You may be on to something there. I'm far from young any more, and as far as my lifetime is concerned there's always been an NHS despite well over half of that lifetime (25 out of 38 years, not including 2017) being under Conservative or Conservative-led coalition governments. It is very much something that is now taken for granted as a part of British life

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It's not about that. It's about asking the question "if this vote benefits me, whom does it disadvantage?"

Yes. And my point is that very few people on either side ask that question in the first place.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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Apart from anything else, the Tories are dishonest. They want to have us believe that it is the immigrant, the person on welfare, the sick who are costing the money. That the country needs the money-grabbing bastards - to the extent that all of us poor taxpayers have to subsidise all the stingy well-paid Tories by building them roads we can't use, airports we don't visit, trains we can't afford.

They take-take-take but then think the deal is that they can tell everyone else what it is that they want to pay for "oh, I don't use museums, why should I have to pay for them.." as if that's somehow equivalent to the piles of cash and advantage that has somehow miraculously appeared in their back pockets.

Yes you should have to pay for museums and the arts, you selfish prick.

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arse

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deano
princess
# 12063

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Apart from anything else, the Tories are dishonest. They want to have us believe that it is the immigrant, the person on welfare, the sick who are costing the money. That the country needs the money-grabbing bastards - to the extent that all of us poor taxpayers have to subsidise all the stingy well-paid Tories by building them roads we can't use, airports we don't visit, trains we can't afford.

Come on then, dozy twat, tell us exactly what "well-paid" means. Give us a number in pounds and pence.

Let's see how many people on the ship would be classified by you as "well-paid".

You probably define "well-paid" as someone who is paid one pound more than you.

Come on, put some numbers out there.

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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No. Fuck off.

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arse

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deano
princess
# 12063

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
No. Fuck off.

All mouth. You're scared to put a number on it because you know it will piss off your lefty mates on the ship.

Cockwomble.

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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If you are a thieving selfish Tory bastard, it is quite obvious: you live in a leafy suburb in an expensive house, you commute to work for your six-digit salary, you've moved recently to get your kid into a "good" school, you think that the rest of the country - a vast majority - who earn less than you do somehow is benefiting from your existence AND you object to paying tax.

It isn't about your salary as much as your shitty money-grabbing, Tory attitude.

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arse

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deano
princess
# 12063

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
If you are a thieving selfish Tory bastard, it is quite obvious: you live in a leafy suburb in an expensive house, you commute to work for your six-digit salary, you've moved recently to get your kid into a "good" school, you think that the rest of the country - a vast majority - who earn less than you do somehow is benefiting from your existence AND you object to paying tax.

It isn't about your salary as much as your shitty money-grabbing, Tory attitude.

You missed out golf and the 4x4.

But why did you feel able to type out that lengthy screed, when you aver at typing out a simple number?

Is it because you are scared the number will be too high? Far too high and those good little conscientious socialist shipmates who earn far less than that will despise you because you won't collect enough taxes and the bulk of the bourgeoisie will be lauging all the way to the bank.

Or if it's only a little bit too high then those good little conscientious socialist shipmates who earn stil less will despise you for being "well-paid", and an out of touch one at that, and you will have committed the second most carninal sin of the socialist... that of being a hypocrite.

Or is it because you are scared it will be too low? Because then those good little conscientious socialist shipmates who earn more than that will despise you because you will have shown them to be "well-paid", and that you want to tax them! You will have committed the full-blown cardinal sin of the socialist... that of highlighting the hypocrisy of a fellow socialist.

The reality is that you can't define "well-paid" because you don't know what the number should be. You just don't like people who have more money than you have, and the jealousy is just oozing from you.

Comment all you like about what you imagine my life is like - I have no intention of confirming or denying any of it - but I think most people will have seen enough of you to recognise anger borne of envy.

You might want to think about getting professional counselling.

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by deano:


Comment all you like about what you imagine my life is like - I have no intention of confirming or denying any of it - but I think most people will have seen enough of you to recognise anger borne of envy.

Haha, I am many things, but envious of you and your pathetic life I am not.

quote:

You might want to think about getting professional counselling.

I have been in counselling. Nothing to be ashamed of.

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arse

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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There is, of course, no simple answer to what constitutes "well paid" - in part because no two parts of the country have the same costs of living. Just the cost of housing, for example - being able to comfortably afford £400 a month on rent/mortgage will get you a nice three-bed house in many places, and a hovel in London (if anything at all).

That being said, I count myself as well paid and would not object at all if I paid a bit more tax if that meant those less well off than me have an easier life - through better welfare, lower taxes etc. As I don't pay a lot in tax I do give money to help others at home and overseas.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

Posts: 32119 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

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I would also count myself among the well paid - but equally I'd say that that's in large part due to opportunities presented to me and not just at the level of 'I could have been blind, and born in Tibet in the 13th century'. Not insignificantly, I was among the cohort of people who had my university fees paid and even got a maintenance grant.

Charitable impulses aside, I could very well imagine myself in different circumstances, and that's a powerful - Rawlsian - impulse to accept some sacrifice if it helps society at large.

Less prosaically, longer term growth relies on some form of consumption, and for that reason, an unequal society where large numbers of people labor under debt is unlikely to a particularly innovative society.

To that extent I think that the biggest failing of the current crop of conservatives is a failure of imagination.

[ 02. March 2017, 21:47: Message edited by: chris stiles ]

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deano
princess
# 12063

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I have always assumed (perhaps somewhat naively) that part of British values has always included concern and care for others, and considering the needs of others - especially when the cost to oneself is small. As a nation we are generous, supporting charities that benefit others. I don't think many people give up those ideals when they enter the voting booth. I'm sure that for the majority of Tories and those who vote for them pure selfishness is not part of who they are - they recognise the value in everyone having a quality education, access to healthcare, welfare when needed, that as a nation we should help refugees etc. Mostly the disagreement with the rest of us is about the details of what is the best, and the best way to achieve it.

I don't know about the view being naive. Rose-tinted is how I would describe that view.

If we are such a generous and open-handed people, why do we have accountants and lawyers who will find any loophole to avoid paying taxes, and in case someone posts the hoary old cliche about wealthy tories, why are people at the other end of the income scale always so willing to take or make a payment that is "cash in hand"?

There were a few reasons why PAYE was devised and implemented, but one of the reasons was to avoid the easier tax evasion that yearly and hald-yearly tax returns allowed.

Sorry Alan but the British have never been ones to pay high taxes because we think it best for everyone.

We seem to have this view of Britain that plays on the "spirit of the blitz" and all that mythology, but my guess is that was all done for public consumption, and the private reality is that most folk look out for themselves and their loved ones.

Same with the myth of tolerance and of being a welcoming nation. I don't believe we have ever been like that all down the centuries. We smile and say, "welcome to Britain, you must come for tea!", but again the private reality is very different from what is said when we are in full public view.

What made Britain Great was the 12-pounder field gun and a willingness to use it.

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by deano:


What made Britain Great was the 12-pounder field gun and a willingness to use it.

No what make Britain Great was the willingness to throw the masses of working people down the mine, in the mills and factories and not giving a single shit about their lives, as long as the comfortable got more comfortable. The Tory Empire attitude which extended beyond the uncouth Welsh, Irish and Scots and to anyone else that they could exploit for profit.

And when it came to the pointless Eton wargames over the fields of Flanders, there was a ready army of working people to tap for cannon-fodder.

That's the root of this. Tories feel that everyone else should know their place. Shut up, sit down, piss off and suffer your crappy life in silence.

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arse

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
I would also count myself among the well paid - but equally I'd say that that's in large part due to opportunities presented to me and not just at the level of 'I could have been blind, and born in Tibet in the 13th century'. Not insignificantly, I was among the cohort of people who had my university fees paid and even got a maintenance grant.

That's also true for me. A bit of luck being born in a reasonably well off middle class family. Support from the NHS there when it was needed. Quality, free education in a state comprehensive school (though being a middle class family, would have probably made it into a grammar school had that inferior model been the only option). Free university education, building on a history of such education option such that it was seen as an option rather than an expectation of leaving school straight into work. A career that has been built in a large part on funding from the UK government and the EU. Even if I was just looking for my own interests, I would want to do all I can to ensure that my children have the same (or better) opportunities. But, I believe that it is good for the nation as a whole (and, hence, indirectly to the good of those I care for if that was my main consideration) that those opportunities are available to all. Even the opportunities I never took advantage of - freedom to study and work in the EU, for example.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

Posts: 32119 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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On various measures, we're all here wealthy. It isn't so much about what you have, it is about what the stuff you have does to you.

If you have an ounce of compassion, you are aware that you've got stuff you didn't earn, that you've done nothing (beyond being born in a certain place) to deserve, that given slightly different circumstances you'd be in a totally different situation. At that makes you (1) grateful and (2) humbled. You then work to try to expand the advantage you've got to as many other people as possible.

If you are a over-privileged Tory bastard, you take all the stuff you've got and are only concerned with getting more and tell everyone else that they should also be only interested in "enlightened self-interest".

Ultimately that's why Conservative values are actually incompatible with the gospel. Expressions of socialism have many many problems, but at root it is far closer to Christianity that Toryist values of feathering ones own nest whilst making life difficult for everyone else.

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arse

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Apart from anything else, the Tories are dishonest. They want to have us believe that it is the immigrant, the person on welfare, the sick who are costing the money. That the country needs the money-grabbing bastards - to the extent that all of us poor taxpayers have to subsidise all the stingy well-paid Tories by building them roads we can't use, airports we don't visit, trains we can't afford.

They take-take-take but then think the deal is that they can tell everyone else what it is that they want to pay for "oh, I don't use museums, why should I have to pay for them.." as if that's somehow equivalent to the piles of cash and advantage that has somehow miraculously appeared in their back pockets.

Yes you should have to pay for museums and the arts, you selfish prick.

This. Especially recently. Just where are all the promised improvements for the JAMs (just about managing). I am upset about this for them, not me. Neither us nor our sons are in that bracket, we have good wages/pensions.

[ 03. March 2017, 07:45: Message edited by: Boogie ]

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
When they've elected a leader who isn't white, hasn't been to a private school and/or oxbridge, isn't born into wealth or all of the above - then they'll have something to crow about.


Well, John Major ticks every box except colour.
What? Grey?

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Forward the New Republic

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Jane R
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# 331

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The thing is, they've even abandoned "enlightened self-interest."

Enlightened self-interest requires a healthy, well-educated workforce. Hence the NHS and publicly funded education.

Enlightened self-interest requires a well-resourced, efficient police force to defend the rule of law (not this week, apparently).

Enlightened self-interest needs a strong government to regulate monetary policy and make sure the trains run on time (even Mussolini managed that, for God's sake).

Enlightened self-interest would not deport a brilliant engineering student only months away from completing her degree, or separate a grandmother who also happens to be her husband's primary carer from her family and force her on a plane to the other side of the world where she doesn't know anybody. It would offer permanent residence to people from the rest of the EU currently in the UK - they have skills we need, or they wouldn't be here - instead of playing mind games with their future.

The Tories used to claim to be the party of fiscal responsibility, family values and law and order. They seem to have abandoned all that in favour of naked greed and unenlightened self-interest.

Marvin said, re the question "If this vote benefits me, whom does it disadvantage?"
quote:
And my point is that very few people on either side ask that question in the first place.
Actually, your point seems to be that nobody should be asking it at all.
Posts: 3932 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
The thing is, they've even abandoned "enlightened self-interest."

I don't think so, they've just reduced the "self" to the smallest possible units.

quote:
Enlightened self-interest requires a healthy, well-educated workforce. Hence the NHS and publicly funded education.
If you sit in a financial institution moving around intangible assets, I can well believe that you think a workforce of people actually doing something is superfluous. Indeed, what you actually want is a workforce of low skilled people who will get on with making money for you at the lowest cost with the least complaining. If they get sick and die, meh, there are more where they came from.

Enlightened self-interest means "I get all possible advantages of education and healthcare so that I can progress in wealth and career, whilst others just do whatever is necessary to keep things moving as long as I don't have to think about them."

Private healthcare and elite education fits perfectly within that scheme. I deserve healthcare and education because I can afford it. You don't because you can't. Now get back to the mine and shut up with your whining.

quote:
Enlightened self-interest requires a well-resourced, efficient police force to defend the rule of law (not this week, apparently).
If I can afford to live in a gated community or a beautiful rural village, then the crimes that the riff-raff have to live with rarely invade my space. Crime is just something to witness on the news and to rant about in the kitchen.

quote:
Enlightened self-interest needs a strong government to regulate monetary policy and make sure the trains run on time (even Mussolini managed that, for God's sake).
Not sure what to say about this one.

quote:
Enlightened self-interest would not deport a brilliant engineering student only months away from completing her degree, or separate a grandmother who also happens to be her husband's primary carer from her family and force her on a plane to the other side of the world where she doesn't know anybody. It would offer permanent residence to people from the rest of the EU currently in the UK - they have skills we need, or they wouldn't be here - instead of playing mind games with their future.
On this one it appears that the self-interest lies somewhere in ensuring that all those foreigners know their place and don't get uppity. But I agree, it doesn't work on any level.

quote:
The Tories used to claim to be the party of fiscal responsibility, family values and law and order. They seem to have abandoned all that in favour of naked greed and unenlightened self-interest.
They never were that. They were a party of privilege, hypocrisy and interference in the rights of others.

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arse

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deano
princess
# 12063

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I just want clarification from cheesey-smegma.

Are you saying that nobody who has ever VOTED for the Conservative Party has not, nor will ever give a contribution to charity, has a number of offshore tax-avoidance schemes, and probably fists their mother?

OR

Are you saying that nobody who is a MEMBER of the Conservative Party has not, nor will ever give a contribution to charity, has a number of offshore tax-avoidance schemes, and probably fists their mother?

You haven't stated your position properly and I feel that as a MEMBER of the Conservative Party, I might be missing out.

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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I'm not even going to respond to your deranged thoughts - the fact is that the logical endpoint of the Tory political philosophy is a small elite who benefit massively and a mass of people who just-about-manage to muddle through their lives.

There are people who say that they vote Tory but don't exhibit this nastiness, I've no idea how they do it - just as there are people who vote Labour but seem to exhibit none of the features of socialist values.

It must be true that there are a very large number of Tory voters who are voting against their own interests.

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arse

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deano
princess
# 12063

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
[QUOTE]If I can afford to live in a gated community or a beautiful rural village, then the crimes that the riff-raff have to live with rarely invade my space. Crime is just something to witness on the news and to rant about in the kitchen.

But of course you want to force those people in the gated communities to suffer those crimes that affect the inner cities don't you? You feel that sharing the crimes out is better.

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
[QUOTE]They never were that. They were a party of privilege, hypocrisy and interference in the rights of others.

Yes that describes the Labour Party perfectly. How you could vote for a party like Milliband and Blair led is beyond me you fascist.

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by deano:
But of course you want to force those people in the gated communities to suffer those crimes that affect the inner cities don't you? You feel that sharing the crimes out is better.

Fuck off you inane dickwad.

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Yes that describes the Labour Party perfectly. How you could vote for a party like Milliband and Blair led is beyond me you fascist.

Fuck off you illiterate dickwad. Fascism is a right-wing not a left-wing belief, you utter pilchard.

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arse

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