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Source: (consider it) Thread: "As a Christian" preamble to opinions.
lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

Though, I know many English-born people here who are fully-fledged yellow through and through Nationalists.

And I think this is the key. Not necessarily being Nationalist, but becoming local.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

Though, I know many English-born people here who are fully-fledged yellow through and through Nationalists.

And I think this is the key. Not necessarily being Nationalist, but becoming local.
Local. OMG. Not clan rivalry, please! It's bad enough in Wales, where people in one village hate those in the next village, people in one valley hate those in the next valley and the valley folk hate those in the cities. At least the English serve to unite them.

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If someone takes a shot at President Trump will his bodyguards shout "Donald Duck"?

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
As noted though, that's mostly fallout from the more serious angst - against governments (of all flavours) comprising almost entirely MPs elected to represent English seats deciding the fate of the people of Scotland as though our views and needs are less than those of the leafy suburbs of London and the vilages of the home counties (for Tories) or the industrial heartland of England (for Labour).

Population of Scotland: 5.3 million
Population of England: 53 million
Population of Wales: 3 million

On a democratic basis, therefore, it's right and proper that 86% of UK Government business should be focussed on England.

Don't get me wrong - I can totally understand why Scots wouldn't like only having about a 9% say in how their country is run. That is, after all, the exact same reason why I'm not a massive fan of the EU (of which the UK forms about 12%).

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Don't get me wrong - I can totally understand why Scots wouldn't like only having about a 9% say in how their country is run.

So, what's wrong with us having a 100% say in how our country is run, and you folk living down south can have 100% say in how your country is run?

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I have birth and marriage records going back to the 1500s to support my story. Obviously that amount of time is enough for such records to potentially become corrupted, but that's true of any historical claim.

You really are a fucking tool. If each generation is 25 years, then over 500 years, that is about 20 generations. That means you must have something between a thousand and a million people in your family tree during that time (unless, I don't know, a lot of people married their cousin or their brother. Which I can believe from what you write).

And out of that you've been able to trace a single line of about 20 people who have been in England that whole time. Wowee.

Big deal. There is a 100% chance that you have other people who are not from England in that group of people. So your claim of being purebred is necessarily utter bollocks.

quote:
Worcestershire is not in Southern England. And before my distant ancestor moved here after the Civil War he lived in Cheshire.
Oh shut up you fucking prick. Worcestershire is clearly in Southern England. It is hardly the north, barely the Midlands. But what has that got to do with anything anyway - it has feck all to do with Scotland. Even your claims to being a purebred are nothing to do with Scotland, which is hundreds of miles away.

quote:

Which decisions would they be, then?

Oh I don't know, maybe the one where you think it is appropriate to make claims about your family history, and you authenticness as an Englishman in connection with whether Scots should be allowed to leave the UK.

FFS, you are as stupid as a bog-brush.

[ 22. March 2017, 16:16: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Don't get me wrong - I can totally understand why Scots wouldn't like only having about a 9% say in how their country is run.

So, what's wrong with us having a 100% say in how our country is run, and you folk living down south can have 100% say in how your country is run?
Nothing. I was in favour of Scottish Independence last time, if you recall, and I will be again this time as and when it happens.

It just perplexes me that Scotland can use almost exactly the same arguments for being independent from the UK as the UK can for being independent from the EU, and you will call them justified in the former case and idiotic (or worse) in the latter. Me, I'm consistent - I agree with the arguments in both cases (notwithstanding the fact that I was a reluctant Remain voter due to concern over the economic consequences).

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Hail Gallaxhar

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

Though, I know many English-born people here who are fully-fledged yellow through and through Nationalists.

And I think this is the key. Not necessarily being Nationalist, but becoming local.
Local. OMG. Not clan rivalry, please! It's bad enough in Wales, where people in one village hate those in the next village, people in one valley hate those in the next valley and the valley folk hate those in the cities. At least the English serve to unite them.
Not necessarily local in that regard. I mean engaging, becoming part of the community, instead of being the English Expat.

[ 22. March 2017, 16:22: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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betjemaniac
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
All English people are Germans if you go back far enough, why single out the Royal Family?



Inconvenient point of order - Celts outnumber every other genetic group *even in England.*

"It should dispel any idea of trying to base what is a cultural identity on a genetic difference, because there really isn't one."

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And is it true? For if it is....

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

It just perplexes me that Scotland can use almost exactly the same arguments for being independent from the UK as the UK can for being independent from the EU, and you will call them justified in the former case and idiotic (or worse) in the latter. Me, I'm consistent - I agree with the arguments in both cases (notwithstanding the fact that I was a reluctant Remain voter due to concern over the economic consequences).

More bollocks. You don't actually mean that otherwise you'd be in favour of ongoing and fractal referendum right down to the lowest possible units of independence.

Oh, never mind, you are that stupid.

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
You really are a fucking tool. If each generation is 25 years, then over 500 years, that is about 20 generations. That means you must have something between a thousand and a million people in your family tree during that time

It's a lot of people, and that's a fact. Especially as we've included siblings of direct descendants in the tree as well (where possible).

quote:
And out of that you've been able to trace a single line of about 20 people who have been in England that whole time. Wowee.
Multiple lines, actually. I can't recall the exact number, but there are at least a hundred different surnames. Birth records from a few hundred years ago often don't have the mother's maiden name, which can make it very difficult to locate the parents' marriage record (and therefore means you can't trace the mother's line any further).

quote:
Big deal. There is a 100% chance that you have other people who are not from England in that group of people.
It's possible that some of the people we haven't traced yet will prove to be from somewhere else, sure. Not 100%, though. Major wars excepted, most people didn't travel around as much back then as they do now.

quote:
So your claim of being purebred is necessarily utter bollocks.
Your word, not mine.

quote:
quote:
Worcestershire is not in Southern England. And before my distant ancestor moved here after the Civil War he lived in Cheshire.
Oh shut up you fucking prick. Worcestershire is clearly in Southern England.
The Hell It Is. Come to the county and tell any local you like that they're a Southerner, and let me know if they agree.

quote:
But what has that got to do with anything anyway
You were the one who accused me of being from the South of England. Maybe you should say what you think it's got to do with this discussion.

quote:
it has feck all to do with Scotland.
Never said it did.

quote:
Even your claims to being a purebred
Your word, not mine.

quote:
maybe the one where you think it is appropriate to make claims about your family history, and you authenticness as an Englishman in connection with whether Scots should be allowed to leave the UK.
Where did I do that, then?

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
You don't actually mean that otherwise you'd be in favour of ongoing and fractal referendum right down to the lowest possible units of independence.

On numerous occasions over the years I've stated my belief that when it comes to countries smaller is better. I've posted in support of independence for Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, Catalonia and the Basque Country on various threads, which I'm sure you can find in Oblivion if you're particularly bothered. Though I will admit that my calls for Independence for Worcestershire may have been slightly tongue-in-cheek. Slightly.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
The Hell It Is. Come to the county and tell any local you like that they're a Southerner, and let me know if they agree.

Look at a map. And then a compass. And then decide whether a county to the West and below the centre can be anything other than Southern England.

quote:
quote:
But what has that got to do with anything anyway
You were the one who accused me of being from the South of England. Maybe you should say what you think it's got to do with this discussion.
What? No. I didn't mention my ancestors at all. You brought it up for absolutely no reason at all other than to make some fucking pathetic point about bloodlines.

Look, you can believe whatever bollocks you like about your family, the fact is that since the 16 century every person living in England has non-English ancestors. You can deny it as much as you like, it is still true. If you don't believe it, get a fucking DNA test.

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
On numerous occasions over the years I've stated my belief that when it comes to countries smaller is better. I've posted in support of independence for Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, Catalonia and the Basque Country on various threads, which I'm sure you can find in Oblivion if you're particularly bothered. Though I will admit that my calls for Independence for Worcestershire may have been slightly tongue-in-cheek. Slightly.

And then, according to you, you'd be a hypocrite if you then didn't support calls for independence for every town, then every street then every house and then every bedroom in the land.

And you're so thick you can't even see it.

--------------------
my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It just perplexes me that Scotland can use almost exactly the same arguments for being independent from the UK as the UK can for being independent from the EU, and you will call them justified in the former case and idiotic (or worse) in the latter.

They aren't, of course, the same arguments because of the very significant differences between a government and something that is not a government.

The EU, and the associated institutions thereof, are not a government in any realistic sense of the word - the closest it gets to governing is when each individual national government manage to agree on a common course of action. The authority of the EU is dispersed among the independent, sovereign governments that are members, and who have each freely made the decision to join. The EU is barely more than an administrative entity that actually manages to make that system of decentralised, independent governments function in some approximation to efficient (and, to be honest it does do things efficiently).

On the other hand, Westminister very clearly is a government. A government that was forced on the people of Scotland 300 years ago and has been resented ever since (degree of resentment being variable). And, a government that has more often than not considered Scotland as of lesser importance than England, and southern England in particular. Recent evidence is that the Tories actually consider Scotland to be less important than their own little internal squabbles, why else promise Scotland a safe place in the EU and then almost immediately forget that promise to play silly political games to try and hold a fractious party together for a few more years?

--------------------
Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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mr cheesy
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Of course it isn't the same and people can be against Brexit and for Indyref for different reasons. I've never heard anything so ridiculous in my entire life.

--------------------
my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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Alan Cresswell

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At least Marvin doesn't hold the equally ridiculous position of supporting the Union of 3 and a bit European nations while opposing the Union of 28 (or is that 30 and a bit?)

--------------------
Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It just perplexes me that England can use almost exactly the same arguments for being independent from the EU as Scotland can for being independent from England, and you will call them justified in the former case and idiotic (or worse) in the latter.

Fixed that for you.

This is exactly the argument that the pro-Brexit Unionists are now deploying and it is nonsense on a stick. The sheer hypocrisy of it makes me weep.

(The reverse argument that you set out isn't actually true, btw. There's a very strong case for Scotland hitching its wagon to the EU, rather than the rUK.)

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Lost in Space

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It just perplexes me that England can use almost exactly the same arguments for being independent from the EU as Scotland can for being independent from England, and you will call them justified in the former case and idiotic (or worse) in the latter.

Fixed that for you.
Fair point, except for the fact that I'm not anti-Scottish independence in any way.

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Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 29690 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged



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