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Source: (consider it) Thread: Syria
Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
# 64

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FUCKING HELL

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My books for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

Posts: 18150 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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And, of course, the White House says it's Obama's fault.

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Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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This also happened in 2013. What you need to know about Syria and chem weapons.

Of course killing by chemicals is so much worse than killing by other military means. But how exactly?

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325

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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
And, of course, the White House says it's Obama's fault.

It isn't?

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
And, of course, the White House says it's Obama's fault.

It isn't?
If you're going to blame Obama for everything, at least get the reasons right.

(And yes: you don't make cheques with your mouth that your actions can't cash. Let the reader understand.)

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Lost in Space

Posts: 8221 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
# 64

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Of course killing by chemicals is so much worse than killing by other military means. But how exactly?

The main reason that I think it is worse is that it tends to leave problems for a long time into the future. More than explosives. But it is just another example of the atrocities in Syria.

It is worse possibly because it is in clear breach of international law, which Assad seems to feel is not a risk. Probably correctly.

I think the reason chemical and biological weapons are banned is because they attack people (not infrastructure) indiscriminately. They can be used to destroy populations, or armys, and leave their defences or weapons for capture. If you want to take over a town, traditionally, you have to bomb your way through it. If, instead, you can simply flood it with Sarin, and send your people in properly protected, that is much easier, much more dangerous, and totally indiscriminate.

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Blog
My books for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530

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So was the deal that Russia swooped in with to eliminate Syria's chemical weapons program in 2013 a sham? (This was when Obama hesitated on a military intervention in response to Syria's crossing of the "Red Line" on chemical weapons use).

I thought the US and UN were pretty well assured that the elimination of Syria's chemical weapons program, despite the many other ways that Assad was and remains despicable, was genuine. If the deal was a sham, do you think Russia knew or even was complicit in covering up Syria's retention of chemical weapons?

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Martin60
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# 368

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Of course, but they are far too good at this game for us to ever know.

[ 05. April 2017, 13:26: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

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Love wins

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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It all plays so well for Lard-ass. 20 minutes ago he shot 50 missiles into a Syrian airbase. So now people can focus on the broadening of the war, unite behind their president, and the free world can fight once again for freedom. It will deflect nicely from his idiocy. Because everyone knows Syria did the nasty. Maybe he can invade now , it can be his Iraq. No impeachment now Hooray. [Help]

[ 07. April 2017, 03:13: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325

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Obviously the bodies of those children in Syria still lie on the far side of Barry's red line...

[Roll Eyes]

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
It all plays so well for Lard-ass. 20 minutes ago he shot 50 missiles into a Syrian airbase. So now people can focus on the broadening of the war, unite behind their president, and the free world can fight once again for freedom. It will deflect nicely from his idiocy. Because everyone knows Syria did the nasty. Maybe he can invade now , it can be his Iraq. No impeachment now Hooray. [Help]

Is this his Reichstag fire, do you think?

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Oh MT, thy thoughts are a black as mine own. It will quell the anti-Lard rhetoric for weeks at least, probably months.

Or shall we bet there is another atrocity to bomb when this one fades?

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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It won't. Though I, too, fear it was meant that way. (O my prophetic soul!)

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Don't forget: T has previously expressed interest in nuclear weapons...
[Paranoid]

We could sit him down to watch "War Games", but he'd most likely ignore Joshua's judgment of "Strange game: The only winning move is not to play".

Oh, and I checked: The Valley of Megiddo is not in Syria.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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Folks on Facebook calling this a war crime. What are thoughts here on that?

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Some members of Congress, particularly Barbara Lee, have said we need to reel this back in, decide if it's war, etc.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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rolyn
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# 16840

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Folks on Facebook calling this a war crime. What are thoughts here on that?

There have been so many crimes and atrocities in this particular Theatre that many are inclined to think one more won't make a lot of difference.

Besides which the same old arguments go around and around, like.... what the fuck do we do?
Boots on ground, bomb the place flat? Produce even more conditions whereby chaos and bloodshed rules for ever and ever?

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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There is some bluff and double-bluff going on here - however this morning's Russian response is interesting. It seems they might be having some buyer's remorse - Trump's WH is too chaotic to even be blackmailed effectively.

Whatever hold they had over Trump etc, it seems that his ego is bigger than it. He, and only he, can save the little children - and who cares what he previously told the Russians, what he tweeted last year (last week, this morning) about Syria, who he discussed it with in Congress or whatever else.

It's a simple way to deflect attention, and it seems a good way to get detractors like McCain onside - crank up the wars, fire some missiles.

The real question is how unstable his thoughts are, how many times he thinks he can make executive decisions without asking anyone else and, I suppose, ultimately what it will take to really piss off the Russians.

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

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That's the Russkies tough shit, shouldn't have helped the Donald get elected.
The Prump fumble under the duvet is over, now it's the glaring at each other across the kitchen stage. When you hear the bin-liners start to rustle then get digging.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

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US intelligence must believe they have conclusive proof that Sarin or something similar was used in an air attack from that base. Sarin is a WMD and its use by a government against its own or other people is a crime under international law.

Is the US retaliatory action a crime under international law? If the Syrian air force was authorised to drop Sarin, I don't​ think so. Were the actions of the Syrian government a crime against international law? If they were as the US claim, undoubtedly.

And has Trump moved from an isolationist to a globalist view of the US role in the world? We'll see. At any rate, the action and the Russian response will certainly change the news focus away from his domestic challenges, including the intelligence investigations.

But I think it would be wrong to argue that the US response was motivated by domestic political considerations. Even if the Trump administration gains a bit of advantage that way. This seems more likely to be triggered by a Trump gut response. With no doubt a lot of behind the scenes discussion about what kind of proportional response might be possible and appropriate.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Callan
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# 525

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Folks on Facebook calling this a war crime. What are thoughts here on that?

Bombing a military base of a government which has routinely committed war crimes is not, itself, a war crime.

The major objection to intervention in Syria is that it could escalate into a regional or, God forbid, a global conflict. But stopping Assad using chemical weapons is a Good Thing. Credit where credit's due. Much as it pains me to say this, as things stand Trump has done more to stop Assad murdering his people than Obama managed. If he's done it and kept the Russians onside then he's done pretty well. OTOH, If he hasn't got the Russians onside then we could be heading into Threads territory, in which case Obama gets to say "I told you so" as long as he speaks loudly and quickly.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

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.... and the Threads scenario is what prevented buttons from being pressed over a 40 year period and will again now ... provided the lunatics haven't taken over the asylum that is [Ultra confused]

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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beatmenace
Shipmate
# 16955

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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Folks on Facebook calling this a war crime. What are thoughts here on that?

If he's done it and kept the Russians onside then he's done pretty well. OTOH, If he hasn't got the Russians onside then we could be heading into Threads territory, in which case Obama gets to say "I told you so" as long as he speaks loudly and quickly.
He hasnt and it might.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/us-air-strikes-syria-live-latest-updates-news-airbase-donald-trump-bashar -al-assad-regime-russia-uk-a7671586.html

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"I'm the village idiot , aspiring to great things." (The Icicle Works)

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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:


Whatever hold they had over Trump etc, it seems that his ego is bigger than it. He, and only he, can save the little children

Oh, but not if it means letting them into our country as refugees of war.
[Mad]

sabine

[ 07. April 2017, 12:05: Message edited by: sabine ]

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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano

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passer

Indigo
# 13329

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At least the important TV people are on message. Oh.... egg, meet face.
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

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It's a beautiful spring here in the bottom right-hand corner of the UK. We'd better make the most of it, as it might be our last...

Nice one, Chumpkin.

[Help]

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 7411 | From: With The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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No Barnabas62. There doesn't have to any evidence of Sarin or anything else. Think Weapons of Mass Destruction. This is very happy for Lard-ass. Though he sounded brain-damaged as he hesitated between each of his horrible...words.

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Much as it pains me to say this, as things stand Trump has done more to stop Assad murdering his people than Obama managed.

If we accept Trump's government's report of what happened. I am not inclined to.

quote:
If he's done it and kept the Russians onside then he's done pretty well. OTOH, If he hasn't got the Russians onside then we could be heading into Threads territory.....
The Russians have never been onside in this conflict. They have always backed Assad and we (US) have always backed the insurgents.

quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
That's the Russkies tough shit, shouldn't have helped the Donald get elected.
The Prump fumble under the duvet is over, now it's the glaring at each other across the kitchen stage. When you hear the bin-liners start to rustle then get digging.

Can somebody restate this in English?

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

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It's a word-picture of a typical English marriage (or relationship).

1. The sex (fumble under the duvet)
2. The arguments (glaring across the kitchen)
3. The throwing-out of one party, belongings in a black plastic bin-liner, as in the 'I've joined the Black Bin-Bag Club' often heard in pubs...).

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
US intelligence must believe they have conclusive proof that Sarin or something similar was used in an air attack from that base. Sarin is a WMD and its use by a government against its own or other people is a crime under international law.

Must they? It seems highly unlikely that this is how it went down.

---

A more likely scenario:

Trump watching Fox: gee, do you see those terrible pictures of kids dying in Syria? I gotta do something.

Turns to whichever minion is on duty during that moment: get me that military guy and whaterhisnameis who does my foreign stuff. Where's my dinner?

--- later in Trump's billiardroom ---

Trump: General, I want you to nuke this guy Assad

General: I think that would be a very bad idea, sir

Trump: Listen to me, I'm the president and I'm telling you to nuke the fuck out of Assad.
General: Sir yes sir. The problem is that we've got US military in Syria and if we drop nukes then they'll die.

Trump pauses with a fork full of steak halfway to his mouth.

Trump: so you're saying that we can't do anything? What is this, the United States of Micronesia? Haven't we got some of those kick-ass battleships near Syria

General: Yes sir. But they don't have any nuclear weapons..

Trump: OK forget the nukes. Find an airfield or some military target and bomb the fuck out of it.

General: But..

Trump: General, am I the Commander in Chief of this great nation? Am I ordering you to do something? Then get outta here and do it.

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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mr cheesy, I think you've made Trump far more articulate than evidence warrants.

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
It's a word-picture of a typical English marriage (or relationship).

1. The sex (fumble under the duvet)
2. The arguments (glaring across the kitchen)
3. The throwing-out of one party, belongings in a black plastic bin-liner, as in the 'I've joined the Black Bin-Bag Club' often heard in pubs...).

Thanks. What's the digging part?

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
mr cheesy, I think you've made Trump far more articulate than evidence warrants.

Possibly, but it is rather sickening to see how quickly Trump's liberal critics roll over when he starts bombing things. FFS.

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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Mousethief, the digging part doesn't usually occur in marriage break-ups, unless the aggrieved party has nukes to throw about.

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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Tch. We aren't stupid. Have you seen the memes popping up? All of Lyin' Don's tweets from the past, pointing that Obama must must must not bomb Syria, no! There are at least a dozen tweets, and someone has neatly arranged them for posting.

What you should more properly fear is the base. Those deep-red voters who were vaguely confused and unhappy about losing all their health care and educational grants and rural benefits. They were becoming alienated. They will snap right back in line. Nothing like a virility demonstration to please the hicks. The popularity graph will go upwards. The level of dissatisfaction will drop. And, next time he needs a distraction, the Pussy Grabber will remember.

The old-school Cold Warriors were wise enough, when they needed a war, to find a conflict that was so safe as to be ridiculous. Thatcher had the Falklands; Reagan had Grenada. You might as well declare war against a cat shelter. The US invaded a Caribbean island. They won, they handed out medals by the carload, everyone was happy and Reagan got his big boost. Is Li'l Donny so wise?

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Science fiction and fantasy writer

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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Well, if the Pussygrabber is now pissing off (or on) the Russians, somehow methinks these ridiculous (but still hateful) little wars of the past will pale into insignificance....

....and there'll be nobody left to care a toss about medals.

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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ISTM, Putin wants a Cold War. It is how he grew up, it will keep him powerful.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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sabine
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# 3861

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Headline in the lead article at HuffPost:

Trump's Plan: Bomb and Ban

He'll use the "beautiful babies" as an excuse to bomb syria, but isn't much interested in actually allowing refugees of war into the country.

Hypocrisy.

sabine

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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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I hear that Pussygrabber's tame lapdog, Wacko Maybe (our unelected Prime Minister) fully supports the US action.

This will, I have no doubt, extend to refusing to allow the lovely little child refugees access to this country.

[Disappointed]

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 7411 | From: With The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Callan
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# 525

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Originally posted by Mousetheif:

quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
quote:
Much as it pains me to say this, as things stand Trump has done more to stop Assad murdering his people than Obama managed.
If we accept Trump's government's report of what happened. I am not inclined to.

Which part of Trump's account is controversial? The Syrian government used chemical weapons. Trump blew up an airfield. Whether he was wise or prudent remains to be seen but the facts are hardly contested.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 9581 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Matt Black

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# 2210

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It is also, whether by accident or by design, good timing when entertaining President Xi and discussing about possibly having to intervene against another unpleasant dictator - it shows that Trump means business with that sort of thing.

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Gamaliel
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# 812

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I agree with your broad analysis, Brenda Clough, but it's hard to see how the US could have suffered 19 killed and 116 wounded by invading a cat shelter ...

Mind you, as far as I can remember, many of the US casualties were down to mistakes, friendly fire and so on ... Marines loaded with heavy kit tend to sink when they are deposited a fair way out to sea instead of on the landing beaches ...

But yes, Grenada was hardly a risky undertaking and the temporary token ticking-off by Thatcher was soon forgiven and forgotten.

The Falklands was a riskier enterprise but once the British taskforce had landed successfully the outcome was in little doubt. And yes, 'The Falklands Factor' helped Maggie to retain power in the next Election.

[Frown]

As for Trump's latest escapade ... sure, it'll rally the hicks but it may divide some on the US Right. I've seen some very right-wing US Republicans and Libertarians I know online expressing dismay over this.

I maintain a few contacts on that side of things so I can hear view outside of my own particular bubble.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 14676 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
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# 9110

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@ mr cheesy

That's funny, but I don't think Mattis would agree to retaliate without the WMD argument. He's nobody's lapdog.

One thing is for sure. People were poisoned. And there will be evidence around of what the poison was.

So far as proportionate response is concerned, there is a pretty good dramatic reconstruction of how to handle a President who wants to make a disproportionate military response in Series 1 of The West Wing.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 20445 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
simontoad
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# 18096

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quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:


Whatever hold they had over Trump etc, it seems that his ego is bigger than it. He, and only he, can save the little children

Oh, but not if it means letting them into our country as refugees of war.
[Mad]

sabine

I hear you loud and clear Sabine. This is the bigger issue.

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The opinions expressed above are transitory emotional responses and do not necessarily reflect the considered views of the author.

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rolyn
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# 16840

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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Mousethief, the digging part doesn't usually occur in marriage break-ups, unless the aggrieved party has nukes to throw about.

Thanks for that shrewd and accurate clarification of my early morning off-the-cuff analysis regardiing the current state of play between the World's two former Superpowers.

Now of course we have China to make it rather more interesting threesome.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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This is a twisty, paranoid and uncomfortable theory: that Putin knew. He let Trump have a bolstering win.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Callan--

quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
OTOH, If he hasn't got the Russians onside then we could be heading into Threads territory, in which case Obama gets to say "I told you so" as long as he speaks loudly and quickly.

What is the "Threads" reference, please? Thx.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 16946 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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Just a little something that scared the ever-living crap out of an entire generation or three back in the mid 80s...

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Lost in Space

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Ah. Thx, Doc Tor.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 16946 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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Threads, and its American contemporary, The Day After, are as frightening now as they were when first produced.

I'm old enough to remember the black-and-white film The War Game, partly shot in a street close to my childhood home, and that was at first banned by the BBC in case of mass suicides taking place as a result..... [Paranoid]

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 7411 | From: With The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
# 64

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I only saw Threads a few years ago. It was chilling, because it was about the effects of a nuclear strike on real people, on a real community.

Of course, this is the daily life of many in Syria today. Not nuclear weapons, but destruction raining down into communities, into normal societies.

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Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

Posts: 18150 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged



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