homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | Register | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Hell   » Syria (Page 2)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Syria
Callan
Shipmate
# 525

 - Posted      Profile for Callan     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I only saw Threads a few years ago. It was chilling, because it was about the effects of a nuclear strike on real people, on a real community.

Of course, this is the daily life of many in Syria today. Not nuclear weapons, but destruction raining down into communities, into normal societies.

I watched it for the first time in 2010 and it scared the ever-living crap out of me, partly because my dad worked in local government and I remember the discussion over tea(!) as to who got to go in the shelters and who didn't. (Dad didn't make the cut, although if Threads was any guide it wouldn't have affected his life expectancy much, either way.) If I'd seen it in 1984 when the government was planning, in all seriousness, for a nuclear war I'd have had nightmares for weeks.

--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 9631 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I saw it the week before I started at Sheffield University. [Help]

--------------------
Improbable Botany

Posts: 8362 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The USA dropped more than 26,000 bombs in 2016. About 3 bombs dropped per hour, every hour of the entire year. Mostly on Syria and Iraq, but also on Afghanistan, Libya, Yemen, Somalia and Pakistan. Lots by drones. This kind of thing.

Which is why the chem weapons schtick is vacuous. Whose economic dominance and expansionist agenda requires the most killing?

--------------------
Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

Posts: 10439 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992

 - Posted      Profile for Adeodatus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
The USA dropped more than 26,000 bombs in 2016. About 3 bombs dropped per hour, every hour of the entire year.

That's a lot of profit for the arms dealers and manufacturers. (>$800k for one Tomahawk cruise missile.)

--------------------
"What is broken, repair with gold."

Posts: 9721 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

 - Posted      Profile for balaam   Author's homepage   Email balaam   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Originally posted by Mousetheif:

quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
quote:
Much as it pains me to say this, as things stand Trump has done more to stop Assad murdering his people than Obama managed.
If we accept Trump's government's report of what happened. I am not inclined to.

Which part of Trump's account is controversial? The Syrian government used chemical weapons. Trump blew up an airfield. Whether he was wise or prudent remains to be seen but the facts are hardly contested.
This is how I see it:

Obama wants to bomb Syria over chemical weapons.
Russia says they will make sure Assad has no access to chemical weapons.
Trump succeeds Obama.
Assad uses chemical weapons.
Trump bombs a Syrian military target, thus continuing with Obama's plan.

People are forgetting that Obama is a hawk.

--------------------
Fearfully and wonderfully mad

ن
blog

Posts: 8564 | From: Proxima b | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Which part of Trump's account is controversial? The Syrian government used chemical weapons. Trump blew up an airfield. Whether he was wise or prudent remains to be seen but the facts are hardly contested.

Trump did not blow up an airfield. Within 24 hours they were taking off and landing planes again from that airfield. If you can't destroy a runway or two with 60 Tomahawk missiles, you were not actually trying to destroy the runway. I'll leave you to work out the implications of that.

--------------------
God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

Posts: 62215 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

 - Posted      Profile for rolyn         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Errr... 'Do that again and the next 60 Tomahawks will be aimed at your head' ?

--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence

Posts: 2936 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged
Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
# 64

 - Posted      Profile for Schroedinger's cat   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Which part of Trump's account is controversial? The Syrian government used chemical weapons. Trump blew up an airfield. Whether he was wise or prudent remains to be seen but the facts are hardly contested.

Trump did not blow up an airfield. Within 24 hours they were taking off and landing planes again from that airfield. If you can't destroy a runway or two with 60 Tomahawk missiles, you were not actually trying to destroy the runway. I'll leave you to work out the implications of that.
It was a Trump PR exercise. He wasn't actually trying to do any lasting damage, he just spent 100M to make the point that he can order 60 penis shaped things to another country, and nobody can stop him.

Apparently, he has raised a pile of money for his campaign on the back of this, so it worked.

He doesn't care about the Syrians. He doesn't care about anyone or anything else, except making himself money, and being a "winner" in his own eyes.

Rarely have I seen such a total loser. He is an embarrassment to the US. And more, he is scamming the US for his personal game. Ignoring the implications, because he doesn't expect to be around to have to handle them.

--------------------
Blog
My books for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

Posts: 18244 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It would seem from The Guardian coverage that Tomahawks don't carry a hefty explosive payload in relation to their size and that they hit bunkers and things rather than the runway itself. There were seven civilian casualties including four children by some accounts - hit by shrapnel.

The Russians claim only 23 were on target, the US that only one went astray.

Apparently, you need hefty bombs to put runways out of action. They can be patched up fairly easily.

This was more a gesture than an attempt to put the airfield out of action.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 14892 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881

 - Posted      Profile for Soror Magna   Email Soror Magna   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
This is how I see it:

...
Russia says they will make sure Assad has no access to chemical weapons.
...
Assad uses chemical weapons.
...

So either Russia is unreliable, or has lost control of its client. Either way, it screams volumes that Emperor Trumperius hasn't pointed that out.

--------------------
"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

Posts: 5244 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The only thing that matters is whether the response will deter Assad in the future. He is aware, as are the Russians, that the US can do a lot more damage than that.

It's not just a gesture. It's a warning. And neither Assad not the Russians know what the US would do next if the warning is ignored. So they've been given pause for thought.

I don't know how well that will work as a play. Time will tell.

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 20553 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
This might be of some use:

"A human rights activist shared these ways you can help make a difference for Syrian refugees" (Hello Giggles).

In the last paragraph, there's a link to an article about how you can do something about Aleppo. (It's a few months old.)

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17130 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
# 64

 - Posted      Profile for Schroedinger's cat   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The Russians claim only 23 were on target, the US that only one went astray.

So somewhere between the two. A bit more than half on target? Pretty appalling, given that this should have been a precision attack. 100M to demolish a few buildings is still ridiculous.

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Apparently, you need hefty bombs to put runways out of action. They can be patched up fairly easily.

You need something that will leave a big crater. The US have such things. They could have used them, but chose not to.

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
This was more a gesture than an attempt to put the airfield out of action.

It was a PR exercise for Trump supporters. It was not intended to worry Assad. It was not intended to actually cause any problems. It was just for Trump to be able to say "Look I can bomb things. I'm the best at bombing things. Nobody bombs things like me. Give me some money".

--------------------
Blog
My books for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

Posts: 18244 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

 - Posted      Profile for rolyn         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Could be that these particular missiles were past there sell by date and just wanted using up.

AIUI Vlad the inhaler has got supersonic Cruise missles that could destroy an Allied aircraft carrier before any evasive action can be taken. [Disappointed]

[ 09. April 2017, 11:15: Message edited by: rolyn ]

--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence

Posts: 2936 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Oh, I don't think the Russians would use supersonic cruise missiles against US warships as part of their support for Assad. What would they gain by doing that, compared with what they would put at risk?

Mattis is used to such calculations. As are the Russian generals. This is a lot more like a military game of chicken than a PR exercise.

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 20553 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Russia is interested in Syria why?

Is it because of NATO moving east and the same motive for Donbass and eastern Ukraine? Disliking the relentless move east? Will Syria be in the Russian or American sphere of influence? Which means that continued chaos is in order.

The missing issue in the discussion is, as usual, economics. With pretense of ideology, being upset about atrocity, the value of life and other such ignorables when money is what this is about. Pray for these dead babies while killing other babies. It does manufacture support and consent.

--------------------
Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

Posts: 10439 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
The only thing that matters is whether the response will deter Assad in the future. He is aware, as are the Russians, that the US can do a lot more damage than that.

It's not just a gesture. It's a warning. And neither Assad not the Russians know what the US would do next if the warning is ignored. So they've been given pause for thought.

The scary thing is that it appears Pres Trump doesn't know either

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 10697 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Killing to stop killing. Yes that makes sense. The details and discussion elsewhere is damning USA war economy and the media missile buy in. Can we have fewer than 26k bombs dropped this year? Please?

--------------------
Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

Posts: 10439 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The Russians claim only 23 were on target, the US that only one went astray.

So somewhere between the two. A bit more than half on target? Pretty appalling, given that this should have been a precision attack. 100M to demolish a few buildings is still ridiculous.

(snip)

It was a PR exercise for Trump supporters. It was not intended to worry Assad. It was not intended to actually cause any problems. It was just for Trump to be able to say "Look I can bomb things. I'm the best at bombing things. Nobody bombs things like me. Give me some money".

...or wiser minds in the military--perhaps those on the fighter jets--decided to give T the appearance of winning, but actually do as little killing and damage as possible...

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17130 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
...or wiser minds in the military--perhaps those on the fighter jets--decided to give T the appearance of winning, but actually do as little killing and damage as possible...

I hope not. That would be tantamount to mutiny.

--------------------
God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

Posts: 62215 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yes. But if they considered it an unlawful order, from a president gone mad, who may have been put in office by the Russians, and who is not getting any sane advice...and they don't want the US to get dragged into yet another war...

Ever see "Fail-Safe"?

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17130 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

 - Posted      Profile for rolyn         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
During the war [Snore] a significant number of german bombs fell in open farmland.
One view was that aircrews dumped them because they were pursued by British fighters, unlikely in this part of the country, the other view being that they were unwilling to kill civilians.

--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence

Posts: 2936 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Interesting, rolyn.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17130 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
@ cliffdweller

In the Nixon era, deliberate use was made of the impression that Nixon was unpredictable, given to outbursts. There is evidence that Nixon encouraged the use of this tactic in foreign relations.

Likewise, Trump's unpredictability can be used to advantage by smart subordinates. And he has got a few of those. I should think that tactic has been used already.

[ 10. April 2017, 07:28: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 20553 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
During the war [Snore] a significant number of german bombs fell in open farmland.
One view was that aircrews dumped them because they were pursued by British fighters, unlikely in this part of the country, the other view being that they were unwilling to kill civilians.

Another is that the Germans were using an early radar bombing aid, bombing at the intersection of two radio beams. The British worked out how to interfere with this so instead of bombing towns and cities, the bombs fell in fields and woods. The Germans did the same with our bombing aids.

I'd be amazed that the Syrians don't have some kit that messes with missile guidance.

--------------------
If someone takes a shot at President Trump will his bodyguards shout "Donald Duck"?

Posts: 23738 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618

 - Posted      Profile for betjemaniac     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Russia is interested in Syria why?

Is it because of NATO moving east and the same motive for Donbass and eastern Ukraine? Disliking the relentless move east? Will Syria be in the Russian or American sphere of influence? Which means that continued chaos is in order.

The missing issue in the discussion is, as usual, economics. With pretense of ideology, being upset about atrocity, the value of life and other such ignorables when money is what this is about. Pray for these dead babies while killing other babies. It does manufacture support and consent.

Economics is important, but don't overlook good old fashioned national power games. Yes, the Russians have been worried for years about eastward expansion, but none of this is happening in a vacuum.

From the Russian side, they've been trying since the 19th century to get a naval base in the Mediterranean and avoid being dependent on whether the Turks will let them through the choke point that is the Dardanelles.

What was the first concession they wrung out of Assad when they started giving overt support? A Mediterranean naval base.

What's particularly interesting though is the extent to which Syria in and of itself represents an eastwards movement of NATO. The new Russian base pretty well faces the British bases on Cyprus, which have been there for over a century.

More to the point - "Russia is interested in Syria why?" - well, because it has been supplying arms to Syria ever since the optimistic days of the United Arab Republic. It saw a geostrategic opportunity in the 1950s to fill the gap left by the end of French rule - although Syria is officially Non Aligned it has always had a preponderance of Russian/Soviet kit in its inventory.

Russia is interested in Syria because it's got a handy strategic location for the Russian navy and it's a client state.

--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....

Posts: 1260 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I was listening to a very scary podcast the other day about US presidential authority to launch nukes.

Spoiler: it turns out that the POTUS can single-handedly order a nuke attack and nobody has the authority to stop it. The military, in contrast, can't without presidential authority.

We've already seen Trump use conventional weapons in a very expensive and largely pointless symbolic move, how long before his hand hovers over the nuclear button?

--------------------
my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

Posts: 8807 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
...or wiser minds in the military--perhaps those on the fighter jets--decided to give T the appearance of winning, but actually do as little killing and damage as possible...

No fighter jets were involved. The missiles were fired from two US Destroyers sailing in the Mediterranean.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 29692 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I was listening to a very scary podcast the other day about US presidential authority to launch nukes.

Spoiler: it turns out that the POTUS can single-handedly order a nuke attack and nobody has the authority to stop it. The military, in contrast, can't without presidential authority.

We've already seen Trump use conventional weapons in a very expensive and largely pointless symbolic move, how long before his hand hovers over the nuclear button?

That's why we're afraid, yes. That's why we're mailing post cards, and marching, and knitting pussy hats. He needs to know, and to be reminded on a daily basis, that we're watching him.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer

Posts: 4753 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
...or wiser minds in the military--perhaps those on the fighter jets--decided to give T the appearance of winning, but actually do as little killing and damage as possible...

I hope not. That would be tantamount to mutiny.
There are situations-- extreme situations, of course-- where mutiny may be the only moral course of action. It is quite possible we have entered into just such territory. I pray for such moral clarity and courage among those who hold the keys to our nuclear arsenal.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 10697 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
@ cliffdweller

In the Nixon era, deliberate use was made of the impression that Nixon was unpredictable, given to outbursts. There is evidence that Nixon encouraged the use of this tactic in foreign relations.

Likewise, Trump's unpredictability can be used to advantage by smart subordinates. And he has got a few of those. I should think that tactic has been used already.

Also extraordinarily frightening-- given who those subordinates are, and where their interests lie.

Yes, throughout this three month nightmare I've been plagued by the impression that there are unseen forces working behind the scenes. I'm trying to cling to the gospel hope that there are unseen forces for good at work in opposition to those unseen forces of evil. Called to prayer now more than ever.

[Votive]

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 10697 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
There are situations-- extreme situations, of course-- where mutiny may be the only moral course of action. It is quite possible we have entered into just such territory. I pray for such moral clarity and courage among those who hold the keys to our nuclear arsenal.

According to some interviewed in that podcast I referenced above, the US military weeds out people from the job of launching nukes who have any moral qualms about following orders.

I suppose we don't know how it would play out if the order actually came, but it seems to me that the assumption from the military is that the front-line combatants will just do what they've been ordered to do and let someone else do the worrying about it.

--------------------
my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

Posts: 8807 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
but it seems to me that the assumption from the military is that the front-line combatants will just do what they've been ordered to do and let someone else do the worrying about it.

The assumption is that someone else had already done the worrying about it. When the front-line people - those with the keys - authenticate the Gold Code, they have to believe that launching is necessary and the decision reached only after compelling evidence and serious, albeit brief, discussion. They will be trained to have confidence in the chain of command. That the CinC is now a clown driven by alt-news and his dick may or may not lead personnel to ask that they be recused from that particular duty.

Tbf, the USSR system - which used to include an automatic launch in the absence of contrary orders - wasn't much better.

--------------------
Improbable Botany

Posts: 8362 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
There are situations-- extreme situations, of course-- where mutiny may be the only moral course of action. It is quite possible we have entered into just such territory. I pray for such moral clarity and courage among those who hold the keys to our nuclear arsenal.

According to some interviewed in that podcast I referenced above, the US military weeds out people from the job of launching nukes who have any moral qualms about following orders.

I suppose we don't know how it would play out if the order actually came, but it seems to me that the assumption from the military is that the front-line combatants will just do what they've been ordered to do and let someone else do the worrying about it.

Yes. And there's reasons for that. If you think it's important to have nuclear capability (not an assumption I share, but obviously there are some who do) you're going to want people in place who (unlike me) don't have an automatic, a priori assumption that all nuclear attacks are immoral or ill-advised. Similar to the way in trials for capital offenses in the US those who oppose capital punishment in all circumstances are not allowed to serve on the jury.

But opposing nuclear assaults in all circumstances is not the same as opposing nuclear assaults in any one particular circumstance. As noted above, turning the key to confirm a nuclear launch is dependent upon an almost unimaginable level of trust in the Commander-in-Chief who will have access to information you don't have. The last 3 months have proved that such trust in our current C-in-C is misplaced-- for a number of reasons, including his unwillingness to take 20 minutes a day to read the relevant information required to undertake such a fearsome task.

Like you, I highly doubt our current military personnel are being trained to make such discernments or navigate such morally fraught territory. I certainly wouldn't want to be in that position. But I do pray that they are, through whatever means, able and willing to undertake such a process.

[ 10. April 2017, 16:11: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 10697 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

 - Posted      Profile for rolyn         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I was listening to a very scary podcast the other day about US presidential authority to launch nukes.

Spoiler: it turns out that the POTUS can single-handedly order a nuke attack and nobody has the authority to stop it. The military, in contrast, can't without presidential authority.

We've already seen Trump use conventional weapons in a very expensive and largely pointless symbolic move, how long before his hand hovers over the nuclear button?

That's why we're afraid, yes. That's why we're mailing post cards, and marching, and knitting pussy hats. He needs to know, and to be reminded on a daily basis, that we're watching him.
I really hate having to say this Brenda, but if war fever is beginning to take hold, (and some of us are beginning to get that sinking feeling in the gut), then it will take more than pussy hats to stop it.
No harm in trying I guess.

--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence

Posts: 2936 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I doubt if Trump is listening, or even has the self-awareness to differentiate between crowds of protestors and crowds of adoring fans. The outrage seems to fuel him and his trumpeters-- that's what they're looking for.

But the hope is that there are enough Americans (the majority who voted for HRC, and those who didn't vote for the top spot) who are listening, and could be persuaded. And, while I have no hope of that moving Trump or his inner circle, I do hold hope that there are those among Congress who will be moved by those grassroots voters-- if not by the morality of the situation, then by the prospect of being voted out of office in the near future. That worked with Vietnam, I am praying it will work again.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 10697 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The people have some power: polling about the air strike in the POST. The money quote: "But Americans were even more emphatic about what they don't want to see next: any other unilateral strikes authorized by Trump or further involvement, period. And there is basically no vote of confidence when it comes to Trump's leadership.Seven in 10 — including a majority of Republicans — said Trump needs to obtain authorization from Congress for any more strikes. And a majority — 54 percent — say they are “uneasy” about Trump's approach to the situation in Syria, with just 41 percent expressing confidence in him."

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer

Posts: 4753 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Hedgehog

Ship's Shortstop
# 14125

 - Posted      Profile for Hedgehog   Email Hedgehog   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
A serious quote from comedian John Oliver:
quote:
“We have a president who feeds off praise, and he just got a lot of it for bombing someone,” Oliver said. “And that should make everyone very, very worried.”

I wish I didn't agree.

--------------------
"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'

Posts: 2519 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
welsh dragon

Shipmate
# 3249

 - Posted      Profile for welsh dragon     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
What is a pussy hat?
Posts: 5343 | From: ebay | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

 - Posted      Profile for Amanda B. Reckondwythe     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by welsh dragon:
What is a pussy hat?

A movement whereby women are wearing knitted hats with cat ears to protest the rise of the Pussy-Grabber In Chief. I understand they are also shipping pussy hats to the White House en masse.

--------------------
"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

Posts: 9987 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Killing to stop killing. Yes that makes sense.

Indeed it does. The whole legal doctrine of self-defence depends on it.

Whether in any given case the doctrine is correctly invoked is a different question.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 17916 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Killing to stop killing. Yes that makes sense.

Indeed it does. The whole legal doctrine of self-defence depends on it.

Whether in any given case the doctrine is correctly invoked is a different question.

All these herrings are red. They swim through the desert skies from heavily armed ships, merely another species of those endless bomb. Self defence isn't anywhere in this.

"The village idiot takes the throne
His the wind in which all must sway
All sane people, die now
Be lifted up and carried away
You've got no home in this world of sorrows" (Bruce Cockburn)

--------------------
Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

Posts: 10439 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

 - Posted      Profile for rolyn         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by welsh dragon:
What is a pussy hat?

Just to clear up some possible confusion a pussy hat does not offer any direct protection against a nuclear bomb.

--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence

Posts: 2936 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged
Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
# 64

 - Posted      Profile for Schroedinger's cat   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Sean Spicer - positive proof that even the very slightest hint of brain is not actually required to reach high office.

If he digs any deeper, a quick shovel and he could be buried for good.

--------------------
Blog
My books for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

Posts: 18244 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Killing to stop killing. Yes that makes sense.

Indeed it does. The whole legal doctrine of self-defence depends on it.

Whether in any given case the doctrine is correctly invoked is a different question.

All these herrings are red. They swim through the desert skies from heavily armed ships, merely another species of those endless bomb. Self defence isn't anywhere in this.

As I said, whether the principle is correctly invoked is a different issue. But it felt as if you were maybe questioning the very principle.

Because killing to stop killing does make sense. It felt as if you were being sarcastic about that, but I'm being anything but sarcastic.

You should also be aware that "self"-defence, as a legal doctrine, extends to the defence of other people.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 17916 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
We know you're a lawyer. Is it enough?

--------------------
Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

Posts: 10439 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I saw it the week before I started at Sheffield University. [Help]

Tangent/

"Threads" was a chilling programme, devastating in its impact. Still remember that.

Strange coincidence, Doc. I was at Sheffield University during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Still remember just how chilling, how frightening, the news of real events was at that time.

/Tangent

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 20553 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
We know you're a lawyer. Is it enough?

Is what enough?

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 17916 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I saw it the week before I started at Sheffield University. [Help]

Tangent/

"Threads" was a chilling programme, devastating in its impact. Still remember that.

Strange coincidence, Doc. I was at Sheffield University during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Still remember just how chilling, how frightening, the news of real events was at that time.

/Tangent

I can *just* remember that time. We lived in married quarters at RAF Hemswell*, where my Dad worked on the IRBM Thor missiles, on loan to Britain from the USA. During "the crisis" he slept in a bunker for five nights while we had a bag packed by the kitchen door. God alone knows where would have gone had the balloon gone up as we must have been Target #1.

*about 35 miles east of Sheffield.

--------------------
If someone takes a shot at President Trump will his bodyguards shout "Donald Duck"?

Posts: 23738 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618

 - Posted      Profile for betjemaniac     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I knew families (or my parents did anyway) in the 1980s whose plan was to drive towards RAF Upper Heyford at the first sign of trouble. They'd seen Threads and The War Game and decided the best thing was to be at or near a first strike target on the basis that it was worse for the survivors.

Ironically they could have just stayed in Kidderminster, as more recently released Soviet plans show it too was a first strike target.*

*not because the USSR was anti-carpet, particularly, but more because it's where all the UK's rocket fuel is made...

--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....

Posts: 1260 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
Check out Reform magazine
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
  ship of fools