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Source: (consider it) Thread: Martin60 knock it off
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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First you call me a girl then you call me ma'am. You are clearly aiming to be insulting. It's a sexist way to go about it. You're a Class 1 arsehole and the whole world knows it. You've always had it in for me and despite your many apologies you come right back at it. Go hump someone else's leg, loser.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

Posts: 61997 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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Well thanks Mousethief, that was a very interesting thread and I would have missed it if it hadn't been for Martin's Monthly Hell Call.

For me, the real miracle of the Holy Fire ceremony is how such a huge, cotton clad crowd of men with candles, manages to keep from starting a big deadly blaze.

If Martin shows up, I personally would rather have him explain the following than why he called Mousethief, "girl."
quote:
I've been locked in a bierkeller the last orgy before it and had to decline the most generous offers of a very attractive Deutches mädchen.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
If Martin shows up, I personally would rather have him explain the following than why he called Mousethief, "girl."
quote:
I've been locked in a bierkeller the last orgy before it and had to decline the most generous offers of a very attractive Deutches mädchen.

You mean how in his bastard German he capitalized the adjective and left the noun in lower case?

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597

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@Twilight

I'm gonna guess that means "While partying just before Lent, I got locked in a beer cellar, and had to fend off the advances of a hot German chick."

[ 23. April 2017, 22:50: Message edited by: Stetson ]

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
You mean how in his bastard German he capitalized the adjective and left the noun in lower case?

That had me puzzled as well!

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Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

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Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
You mean how in his bastard German he capitalized the adjective and left the noun in lower case?

That had me puzzled as well!
He followed English, not German, rules of capitalization.

I was just grateful the response was a complete sentence, and not something like "Why?" in response to a post that contained multiple points. I tire of the "I can't be bothered, so you figure out what I'm asking you" approach.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

Posts: 2200 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Pervert as well as bastard. Mädchen means girl, and doesn't work for someone more than midteen.

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
I was just grateful the response was a complete sentence, and not something like "Why?" in response to a post that contained multiple points.

Or "warum."

[tangent] I once saw on an old-model VW beetle with the personalized license plate "Warum." I puzzled over that a while -- until I pronounced it, rather than translating it. [Biased] [/tangent]

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Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

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Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
[tangent] I once saw on an old-model VW beetle with the personalized license plate "Warum." I puzzled over that a while -- until I pronounced it, rather than translating it. [Biased] [/tangent]

Ha!

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
@Twilight

I'm gonna guess that means "While partying just before Lent, I got locked in a beer cellar, and had to fend off the advances of a hot German chick."

Excepted as noted "Mädchen" means "little girl."

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Stercus Tauri
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# 16668

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
@Twilight

I'm gonna guess that means "While partying just before Lent, I got locked in a beer cellar, and had to fend off the advances of a hot German chick."

Excepted as noted "Mädchen" means "little girl."
In Martin's defence, "little girl" is a relative term as one ages into dirty old manhood. They get older, too.

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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)

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Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
@Twilight

I'm gonna guess that means "While partying just before Lent, I got locked in a beer cellar, and had to fend off the advances of a hot German chick."

Excepted as noted "Mädchen" means "little girl."
Maybe the Mädchen/hot German chick in question was Angela Merkel and Martin fancied himself Helmut Kohl?

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
@Twilight

I'm gonna guess that means "While partying just before Lent, I got locked in a beer cellar, and had to fend off the advances of a hot German chick."

Excepted as noted "Mädchen" means "little girl."
In Martin's defence, "little girl" is a relative term as one ages into dirty old manhood. They get older, too.
I will bow to your superior knowledge of German. I would call any object of lust a Fräulein, and any dirty old man who lusts after Mädchen a pædophile.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

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I reckon Martin60 fell over his own rhetoric. Not an unknown event.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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I think you're all thinking too hard about this; Martin tries to go to the logical end-point of his thinking and frequently disassembles to the point of incoherence.

I wouldn't take anything he says in those moments particularly seriously, the best thing to do is tell him to keep taking his medication/cocoa/viagra because he's hit peak-incoherence again.

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I would call any object of lust a Fräulein, and any dirty old man who lusts after Mädchen a pædophile.

Seems a bit like accusing anyone who talks about liking hot babes of being sexually attracted to infants. But whatever, enjoy your linguistic pedantry if you must.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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mousethief. My unqualified apologies.

I was toying with you for being right. No sufficiently good deed goes unpunished as you know. I segued from old boy, to old girl. It's a pond thing with added surrealism. There's nowt sexist about it therefore. Or decadent.

Aye, deutches Fräulein would have been better. Although German girls translates to deutsche Mädchen. At least I got the gender right both times because of the diminutive. I was 26. She looked older. And I was in extremely self-righteous mode. Ij. Stetson got it.

How I kept me 'and on me 'a'penny for 7 years God knows. I was well known for translating English idioms directly in to German bei McDonalds in Bonn, wo ich gearbeitet habe (where I worked). Alte bohne (old bean) and altes obst (old fruit) elicited utter confusion. "Vy are you callink me rotting garbitsch?". My street German got good enough to know when I was being sworn at. Breakthrough happened when Theo, the cleaner said to me 'Ich habe in deinen Gummistiefeln gepinkelt.'. He hadn't. Peed in me wellies.

I was so pleased when I got my first German joke, not even addressed to me: 'Sprechen Sie electrisch?'.

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Love wins

Posts: 15531 | From: More Corieltauvi than Dobunni now. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Martin60, you didn't really mean sorry did you? Channelling this** perhaps?


**Innerer Schweinehund means "inner asshole". Some have an inner child, some have something else.

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I will bow to your superior knowledge of German. I would call any object of lust a Fräulein, and any dirty old man who lusts after Mädchen a pædophile.

For Fuck's sake, mt, Martin presents plenty of real targets to aim a kick at. Baseless accusations of paedophilia are unnecessary and offensive.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Martin60, you didn't really mean sorry did you? Channelling this** perhaps?


**Innerer Schweinehund means "inner asshole". Some have an inner child, some have something else.

Schuldig.

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Love wins

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I was toying with you

And this is what needs to stop.

I just got back from Vienna and was surprised how much German I could remember. Also surprised by there being a permanent snowstorm there last Wednesday.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Martin60
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Ja, perfunk.

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Love wins

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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Remember that bit where this is an English-language messageboard?

I'm reminding everyone of it.

DT
HH


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Lost in Space

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
@Twilight

I'm gonna guess that means "While partying just before Lent, I got locked in a beer cellar, and had to fend off the advances of a hot German chick."

Excepted as noted "Mädchen" means "little girl."
No, it just means "girl". You're the bloke who often comes in here telling us all how etymology is not meaning. German has long since stopped regarding the "chen" as critical to the meaning of the word.

I'm in my 40s and I've still been called "boy" in certain contexts. Get over it.

[ 25. April 2017, 02:59: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397

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Martin60 has already copped to taking the piss.
I read his comments in a goodnatured light and didn't see much harm. But I am not the one the comments were directed at and my history with Martin60 is very different.

And I would concur that I too felt that hyperbole was utilised in the interpretation of his comments. YDoPTMV.*


*Your degree of panties twisting may vary.

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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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Using 'ma-am' and 'girl' as insults is sexist and derogatory towards women and girl. I have heard them both used often. It grates every time. I think I would go as far as to say it hurts - as it's just another confirmation as to how deep rooted everyday sexism is.

Does Martin60 intend to be sexist? I doubt it.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Jolly Jape
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# 3296

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Using 'ma-am' and 'girl' as insults is sexist and derogatory towards women and girl. I have heard them both used often. It grates every time. I think I would go as far as to say it hurts - as it's just another confirmation as to how deep rooted everyday sexism is.

Does Martin60 intend to be sexist? I doubt it.

Really? I must confess to being a bit old school, but I do use "Sir" and "Ma'am" in a light hearted way of showing respect, for instance, when holding a door open for someone to pass, "after you, sir". I can't understand why that is considered sexist, when used between equals. When used to a "social superior", I can see it being regarded as taking the piss, but that's to do with deflating pomposity rather than sexism. I suspect that Martin, who, I recall, is of a similar age to myself, uses language in a similar way.

Neither of which says anything about referring to MT as "ma'am" or "old girl", which, when directed at a man, would be read in the UK (do you agree Boogie) as a gentle prod intended to raise a smile rather than anything more hostile, but across the pond, in a different social context (Children calling their fathers "Sir", for example), it is possibly viewed differently.

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
I do use "Sir" and "Ma'am" in a light hearted way of showing respect

This is precisely how Martin60 uses it to respond to tellings-off from a host: it's an attempt on his part to minimise and defuse a serious enforcement of the rules.

Martin60's "sirs" and "ma'ams" rarely, if ever, come with an actual acknowledgement ("yes, ok, I've understood, I'm sorry, I won't do it again"), but rather stand in place of one.

This comes across as "I've noted your comment but nothing says I'm actually going to comply". Furthermore, its "light-hearted tone" also comes across as "I'm treating this all as a game anyway, so I'm not likely to". It's such a caricatural way of showing respect that it implies the complete opposite.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:

This comes across as "I've noted your comment but nothing says I'm actually going to comply". Furthermore, its "light-hearted tone" also comes across as "I'm treating this all as a game anyway, so I'm not likely to". It's such a caricatural way of showing respect that it implies the complete opposite.

I don't think it does, actually. It simply states that I have recognised your words, I have recognised that you have the authority to make that statement and I have stopped doing whatever it is that you have told me to stop doing.

No apology is implied or given.

Martin is saying that he doesn't necessarily agree or understand the ruling, but respects that the ruling has weight and that it is to be obeyed.

And, as it happens, there is no obligation for anyone to acknowledge a hostly intervention on these boards - the obligation is to stop doing whatever it is when hosts use the host tags. That's it.

I'm not sure your analysis cuts any ice at all.

[ 25. April 2017, 08:26: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Martin is saying that he doesn't necessarily agree or understand the ruling, but respects that the ruling has weight and that it is to be obeyed.

The evidence suggests otherwise.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
The evidence suggests otherwise.

Or possibly your extreme oversensitivity means that you're unable to assess the evidence.

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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Jolly Jape
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# 3296

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I think this all comes down to the problems of interaction on boards as opposed to in real life. If you "get" Martin, then you wonder what all the fuss is about. If you don't "get" him, he obviously (from the reaction) comes across as irritating or passive aggressive. Unfortunately, the typed medium is not really up to the job of determining which of those judgements is correct. I like Martin, possibly because I've come across many people IRL who appear to have similar, shall we say, foibles, and they have, without exception, been likeable intelligent and entertaining people. I can even see something of myself in him. I suspect I would like him IRL as well. For others, perhaps he would not be their cup of tea, but I really think some of the ire he generates is a bit (OK, a lot) overblown.

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

Posts: 3007 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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No, Jolly Jape, I don't agree - calling a man a 'girl' is sexist, whether in friendly jest or sneering jeer.

Round here there is a saying 'don't be a big girl's blouse'. It means wimpish and lacking backbone. I hate it.

Girls/women are wimpish and lacking backbone? I think not.

[ 25. April 2017, 09:14: Message edited by: Boogie ]

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Jolly Jape
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# 3296

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
No, Jolly Jape, calling a man a 'girl' is sexist, whether in friendly jest or sneering jeer.

Round here there is a saying 'don't be a big girl's blouse'. It means wimpish and lacking backbone. I hate it.

Girls/women are wimpish and lacking backbone? I think not.

Well, I'm from "round here", and I can't see that what Martin said to MT was in any way analogous to calling him a "girls blouse" (an expression for which I share your distaste), or why, in the original context, he would be accusing MT of lacking backbone.

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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I know.

But calling a man a 'girl' is never a compliment.

Which is my point. Girl/woman = less in some way.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
The evidence suggests otherwise.

Or possibly your extreme oversensitivity means that you're unable to assess the evidence.
[Disappointed] Martin60 has a record a mile long on this.

There was a Styx thread not so long ago about it, since culled, on which it was abundantly clear that his behaviour in this respect was irksome to many.

You are right that apologising for on-board misbehaviour is not necessary, but ceasing and desisting when called on it should be - and he has been called on "sir" and "ma'am" many times.

I find some of what Martin60 says stimulating and engaging. However, when he veers into being deliberately enigmatic and/or proffers elliptical, ambiguous insults disguised as compliments or vice versa, he's just annoying; even more so when, by his own admission, he is doing so simply to "toy with" people.

I'm not keen to devote time and energy here, in any capacity, to being toyed with.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:

I'm not keen to devote time and energy here, in any capacity, to being toyed with.

For sure. Martin's opaqueness drives me nuts and I absolutely wouldn't put it past him to be playing with us. If that is what he is doing, then he's playing a pretty stupid game given at least half the time nobody knows what the hell he is on about.

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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Martin60
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# 368

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Hmmm, Martin grew up on the edge of a petit bourgeois environment from beneath. One side of the family were frightfully genteel, the other yeoman working class. It's about anachronistic class kiddies. Not sexism. Old boy, old girl, old chap but NEVER old woman, except in a mocking, raven's voice as a synonym for crone.

mousethief and I both have thin skins on different parts of the body. And I'm a natural retaliator. 'e started i'. Being a gracelessly superior bastard. I inveigled back.

My bad.

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Love wins

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
kiddies

[Disappointed] [brick wall] [Roll Eyes]

--------------------
One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Martin60
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# 368

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Nor agism.

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Love wins

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Martin60
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Old woman was used in the working class third person of course. But never the second.

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Love wins

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Nor agism.

It's not agism; it's patronising.

Get some critical distance, or some empathy, or something. Imagine how someone who's not you might read your posts. Either stop overcompensating for a sense of inadequacy or stop assuming you're superior; whichever works.

--------------------
One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Martin60
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Lighten up kid.

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Love wins

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Lighten up kid.

Martin, seriously, have you been drinking?

--------------------
my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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Martin60
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If this were in the pub we'd be pissing ourselves laughing. What is it about writing that makes us all so thin skinned? So up our arses? Fear of course. But down the pub that fear works.

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Love wins

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Martin60
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I wish we were mr cheesy, it would would be paroxysmically funny. Even the bloody Yanks would be laughing.

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Love wins

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
If this were in the pub we'd be pissing ourselves laughing. What is it about writing that makes us all so thin skinned? So up our arses? Fear of course. But down the pub that fear works.

I'm not afraid of anything here. I have plenty of other RL things to be afraid of.

Mates ribbing one another is one thing. Systematically adopting a patronising tone and being deliberately obfuscatory and ambiguous after multiple entreaties to desist is not "matey" behaviour.

It is an abuse of friendship and if we were meeting down the pub it would end up with me changing pubs.

Instead of acknowledging that, you throw a few more insults around, indirectly of course as is your wont, so as to provide plausible deniability and/or turn them on yourself later in a pity party designed to elicit "all is forgiven" sympathy from everyone else when you realise you've pushed it just a little too far.

It is also an abuse of friendship to "toy with" others' reactions, as you have admitted that you do, more than once.

I think you're an atypical, amazing and deep person who has come through a lot of suffering, and somebody I could learn a lot from. But I have to double the effort because of your wilful refusal to attempt normal social relationships and stop seeing everyone else here as your personal playthings. That's not "matey"; that's sick.

--------------------
One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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If I learn that some habit of mine annoys other people, I make an effort to stop doing it. Martin seems to think that if he irritates other people, that's their misfortune.

Moo

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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.

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Martin60
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Moo. OK, this en't the pub. I'm sorry.

Eutychus, you'd stay mate and give as good as you got and we'd get maudlin pissed: "You're my bes' mate you are.".

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Love wins

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Eutychus
From the edge
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Unfortunately not a good reference for me. I know far too many people who found themselves in that exact situation with the end result that they ended up stabbing their "bes' mate" to death.

--------------------
One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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