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» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Hell   » Holy fucking smoke, you are a piece of shit. (Page 1)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Holy fucking smoke, you are a piece of shit.
Schroedinger's cat

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# 64

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There is this form purg, not to mention your idiocy on the cyber attack thread here is hell.

I mean I realise simply slating everyone who disagrees with you is a standard trick of people with no arguments or brains, but really, it is tedious.

Either properly engage or fuck off.

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lilBuddha
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A quick look through his "recent" posting history, he isn't always an arsehole,* but he is pretty light on anything more than assertion. Does give of a whiff of "You are oppressing me by not allowing me to oppress" though.

*Meaning not a beano or a romanidiot, not meaning necessarily a decent bloke.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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SC--

Respectfully: On the Purg thread, are you sure you don't mean *gorpo* rather than Holy Smoke? FWIW. YMMV.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
SC--

Respectfully: On the Purg thread, are you sure you don't mean *gorpo* rather than Holy Smoke? FWIW. YMMV.

IMO, both,

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Holy Smoke
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# 14866

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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I mean I realise simply slating everyone who disagrees with you is a standard trick of people with no arguments or brains, but really, it is tedious.

Said the pot to the kettle. Matey, I've replied to you on the Purg thread, and I stand by what I said on the Cyber attack thread, and won't be saying any more. (I do have n years experience in IT, BTW)
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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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As far as I can see, blaming victims of IT crime or burglary for not taking precautions is uncomfortably similar to blaming rape victims for how they dress.

It doesn't matter how inviting an opportunity a potential victim presents, they're not "asking for it". The blame lies entirely on the person who chooses to take advantage of that opportunity. I'm sure in my life I've had quite a number of opportunities to commit some crime against another individual, but I don't use those opportunities, because I'm not a sociopathic bastard.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Boogie

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# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
As far as I can see, blaming victims of IT crime or burglary for not taking precautions is uncomfortably similar to blaming rape victims for how they dress.

It doesn't matter how inviting an opportunity a potential victim presents, they're not "asking for it". The blame lies entirely on the person who chooses to take advantage of that opportunity. I'm sure in my life I've had quite a number of opportunities to commit some crime against another individual, but I don't use those opportunities, because I'm not a sociopathic bastard.

We all have opportunities all the time. Thankfully most people don't take them.

I detest victim blaming in all its forms. It took years for the young abused girls in Rochdale to be believed. Insult added to injury.

Yes, the NHS should have been resourced and prepared. But the blame is entirely at the door of the criminals. I hope they, somehow, get caught.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Schroedinger's cat

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# 64

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quote:
Originally posted by Holy Smoke:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I mean I realise simply slating everyone who disagrees with you is a standard trick of people with no arguments or brains, but really, it is tedious.

Said the pot to the kettle. Matey, I've replied to you on the Purg thread, and I stand by what I said on the Cyber attack thread, and won't be saying any more. (I do have n years experience in IT, BTW)
Where n < 1.

I will take heart from the fact you are going to say no more. That is always positive.

--------------------
Blog
My books for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

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Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
# 64

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
SC--

Respectfully: On the Purg thread, are you sure you don't mean *gorpo* rather than Holy Smoke? FWIW. YMMV.

gorpo was also being an arse, but Holy Smoke was being an arse on two threads.

That makes a bigger, fatter, flabbier arse than was shown on eurovision last night.

--------------------
Blog
My books for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

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simontoad
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# 18096

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No no no no no no no.

Blaming people for not protecting themselves against cybercrime is not even in the same ballpark as blaming a woman's rape on how she dressed.

I think that was a case of wrong metaphor.

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The opinions expressed above are transitory emotional responses and do not necessarily reflect the considered views of the author.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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It wasn't a "metaphor". It was what leapt into my mind when reading some of the things said here. You might not like the comparison but it was the one generated for me by reading. I didn't go looking for it.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It wasn't a "metaphor". It was what leapt into my mind when reading some of the things said here. You might not like the comparison but it was the one generated for me by reading. I didn't go looking for it.

I don't understand this defense. "I didn't make this up, it was thrust upon me." It was still your decision to post it here.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
As far as I can see, blaming victims of IT crime or burglary for not taking precautions is uncomfortably similar to blaming rape victims for how they dress.

If that is as far as you can see, then you need better specs.
Rape isn't about choice in clothing.

If I leave my camera on on the seat of my car, with the windows open, the thief who takes it is completely responsible for his/her actions. And I am responsible for giving the opportunity.
This does not mean I share the legal or moral responsibility for the theft, that is still the thief's.
But I have failed to properly protect my kit.
In the case of the NHS, they were failed by the Tories. This is why Holy Smoke it a tool, he ignores their responsibility in this to make a brain-dead accusation.
quote:

I'm sure in my life I've had quite a number of opportunities to commit some crime against another individual, but I don't use those opportunities, because I'm not a sociopathic bastard.

Pedantic note: Just as not all sociopaths are criminals, not all criminals are sociopaths.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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There was a series of phrases on a Gaigin site while I was in Japan, of the form "you know you've been in Japan too long when ..."

One of relevance here was "You know you've been in Japan too long when you go to a coffee shop on your own, and leave your iPad on the table as you go to the toilet".

Leaving your house unlocked, your iPad unattended, walking into the wrong neighbourhood, or failing to install the latest patch on your PC may be unwise ... but in no way makes you in any way responsible for any crime that follows. That responsibility is entirely in the hands of the criminal.

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Citizen of the world.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
There was a series of phrases on a Gaigin site while I was in Japan, of the form "you know you've been in Japan too long when ..."

One of relevance here was "You know you've been in Japan too long when you go to a coffee shop on your own, and leave your iPad on the table as you go to the toilet".

Leaving your house unlocked, your iPad unattended, walking into the wrong neighbourhood, or failing to install the latest patch on your PC may be unwise ... but in no way makes you in any way responsible for any crime that follows. That responsibility is entirely in the hands of the criminal.

I disagree. The blame lies with criminal. An IT department has the responsibility to protect the hardware, software and data within their systems. If they fail this, they have responsibility. IMO, the NHS IT staff did not fail here, they were failed by the government.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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You're right, a bit loose in my language there. A victim is never to blame, though they may share a part of the responsibility for what has happened. Those people who want to put the blame on the victim in one instance need to work very hard to defend that claim. Because, there's no logical basis to say that one victim is to blame and another isn't. If we're to blame someone who forgot to lock their car, then logically we should be blaming the girl in a short skirt. So, we blame no victim.

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lilBuddha
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We should blame no victim because the perpetrators of a crime do not have to commit it, they choose.
Rape v cybercrime are not good comparators. Not all crimes/victims are the same.

[ 14. May 2017, 21:11: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
We should blame no victim because the perpetrators of a crime do not have to commit it, they choose.
Rape v cybercrime are not good comparators. Not all crimes/victims are the same.

A company's IT division has a positive moral responsibility to do what they can to deter and prevent their system being hacked. A woman does not have a positive moral responsibility to deter rape. The two cases are so dissimilar that using them in the same argument is a terrible affront to any and all rape victims.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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All crimes share some common features - a victim and a perpetrator for a start. Though rape and cybercrime are very different, they both fall on a spectrum of criminality. By definition there is no way to arbitrarily draw a line on that continuum to say that on one side a victim is innocent and on the other a victim shares some blame. If we try then that line will be highly mobile, and likely to slide towards blaming the victims of other crimes.

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Citizen of the world.

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
All crimes share some common features - a victim and a perpetrator for a start. Though rape and cybercrime are very different, they both fall on a spectrum of criminality.

No, they actually do not.
quote:

By definition there is no way to arbitrarily draw a line on that continuum to say that on one side a victim is innocent and on the other a victim shares some blame.

Again, not blame. And not share. A victim might have some responsibility, but it is not shared with the responsibility that the perpetrator has. You are still speaking in zero-sum terminology.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
All crimes share some common features - a victim and a perpetrator for a start. Though rape and cybercrime are very different, they both fall on a spectrum of criminality.

No, they actually do not.

So, do either rape or cybercrime lack either a victim (do you believe the myth that there are victimless crimes?) or a perpetrator? It's impossible to compare the effects of crime on victims, but if someone had lost access to the only copy they have of precious family photographs (for example) is that not potentially traumatic? The level and particular form of impact of each crime will vary (even within a particular type of crime there will be variation), is that not saying that these crimes fall on a continuum?
quote:

quote:

By definition there is no way to arbitrarily draw a line on that continuum to say that on one side a victim is innocent and on the other a victim shares some blame.

Again, not blame. And not share. A victim might have some responsibility, but it is not shared with the responsibility that the perpetrator has. You are still speaking in zero-sum terminology.

Well, I wasn't really addressing the points you have well made that there is a difference between blame and responsibility. This thread is addressing the likes of Holy Smoke who feels it appropriate to blame the victims of some crimes for not taking precautions he thinks they should have taken (without any apparent appreciation of circumstances, such as an inability to take some precautions), and that was the target of my comments.

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Gee D
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# 13815

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Surely consensual sexual relations between adult men used be victimless crime, and still are in many jurisdictions.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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Which just goes to show how stupid it is to call consensual sex acts between adults a "crime".

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Citizen of the world.

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Which just goes to show how stupid it is to call consensual sex acts between adults a "crime".

I guess "Crimeless crime" is a better definition.

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Gee D
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# 13815

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Which just goes to show how stupid it is to call consensual sex acts between adults a "crime".

Those acts are still crimes in many parts of the world, punishable with extremely severe penalties.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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Which still doesn't make it any less stupid. In fact, possibly more stupid. What is the purpose of a penalty? To compensate the victim or protect society both require there to be a victim or potential victim, so in a "victimless crime" there can be no penalty for those purposes.

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Citizen of the world.

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
All crimes share some common features - a victim and a perpetrator for a start. Though rape and cybercrime are very different, they both fall on a spectrum of criminality.

No, they actually do not.

So, do either rape or cybercrime lack either a victim (do you believe the myth that there are victimless crimes?) or a perpetrator?

I am saying they do not fall on the same spectrum of criminality

"Victimless Crime" is an oxymoron. If there is no victim, there should be no crime.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

"Victimless Crime" is an oxymoron. If there is no victim, there should be no crime.

Not sure about this. What if someone is in their city back yard shooting targets with their rifle? If nobody gets shot, who is the victim?

It's illegal because it's dangerous, but like other illegal dangerous things that happen not to cause an accident (drunk driving, speeding, etc.), there's no identifiable victim.

But this is a tangent.

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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It's a crime in which there is a real chance of there being a real victim. Rather like speeding etc, there may not be an intent to cause harm but inevitably harm will done and there will be a victim.

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Citizen of the world.

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Gee D
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# 13815

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Which still doesn't make it any less stupid. In fact, possibly more stupid. What is the purpose of a penalty? To compensate the victim or protect society both require there to be a victim or potential victim, so in a "victimless crime" there can be no penalty for those purposes.

You're talking of what should or should not be a crime. I'm talking of what is a crime in many parts of the world , a breach of the criminal law in those countries.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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Yes, and where the law of a country makes something which does not, have and cannot possibly have, a victim a "crime" that law is stupid.

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Citizen of the world.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
"Victimless Crime" is an oxymoron. If there is no victim, there should be no crime.

Disagree. It is a crime to hunt deer at night or with a spotlight here. Where's the victim? It is also a crime to operate a motor vehicle with blood alcohol over .08% blood alcohol content on a random traffic stop. This one is about potential victims I suppose, but in the situation of an injury or death, the charge becomes one specific to the victim's death or injury.
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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
It is a crime to hunt deer at night or with a spotlight here. Where's the victim?

Hunting regulations are designed to prevent excess killing. Excess killing leads to depopulation which effects the environment. And harms the deer. Victims.

quote:

It is also a crime to operate a motor vehicle with blood alcohol over .08% blood alcohol content on a random traffic stop. This one is about potential victims I suppose,

No supposition. The potential is exactly the reason.

quote:
but in the situation of an injury or death, the charge becomes one specific to the victim's death or injury.

I've always found this a bit stupid. Logically, the penalty for drink driving should be the same regardless.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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quote:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
but in the situation of an injury or death, the charge becomes one specific to the victim's death or injury.

I've always found this a bit stupid. Logically, the penalty for drink driving should be the same regardless.

Or should be proportionate to the level of alcohol found in the blood?

[ 16. May 2017, 07:16: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
What is the purpose of a penalty? To compensate the victim or protect society both require there to be a victim or potential victim, so in a "victimless crime" there can be no penalty for those purposes.

To take us on a slight tangent: what's the point of fining a Hospital (say) for underperforming ... and so leaving it with even less cash to improve itself?

And even if you fine (say) a Rail Company, isn't there a real danger that the money comes out of the shareholders' profits rather than from the money needed to run the service?

Posts: 8506 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Yes, and where the law of a country makes something which does not, have and cannot possibly have, a victim a "crime" that law is stupid.

No disagreement from me, but that's not what matters. It's still a crime with harsh punishment in many countries.

As to No Prophet - a king's primary duty is to ensure the security of his realm. That means maintaining safe and secure borders with internal peace. Those who drive with more than the prescribed content of alcohol in their blood endanger that peace, even without having the slightest accident. Society as a whole is the victim. Those having consensual sexual relations with another adult are not. It used be thought it did, and still is by a some (eg Steve Langton), but in our societies that is an ever diminishing number.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
As far as I can see, blaming victims of IT crime or burglary for not taking precautions is uncomfortably similar to blaming rape victims for how they dress.

If that is as far as you can see, then you need better specs.
Rape isn't about choice in clothing.

And if you think I was claiming it WAS, you need to read a lot more carefully.

As does mousethief, frankly. Neither of you seem to have read what I actually wrote, but some strange altered version of it.

Anyway, it seems to have done wonders for the discussion.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
As far as I can see, blaming victims of IT crime or burglary for not taking precautions is uncomfortably similar to blaming rape victims for how they dress.

If that is as far as you can see, then you need better specs.
Rape isn't about choice in clothing.

And if you think I was claiming it WAS, you need to read a lot more carefully.

As does mousethief, frankly. Neither of you seem to have read what I actually wrote, but some strange altered version of it.

Anyway, it seems to have done wonders for the discussion.

You made this statmtent
quote:
As far as I can see, blaming victims of IT crime or burglary for not taking precautions is uncomfortably similar to blaming rape victims for how they dress.
They are not similar. But other than unHoly smoke, I don't see people here blaming the victims of IT crime.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 15498 | From: out of the corner of your eye | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
It is a crime to hunt deer at night or with a spotlight here. Where's the victim?

Hunting regulations are designed to prevent excess killing. Excess killing leads to depopulation which effects the environment. And harms the deer. Victims.
No not really. The issue is actually one of safety, which doesn't actually hold in most areas external to towns and cities. We have nearly 10x the number of deer than we had 40 years ago. Geese even more than that. Both outnumber people. The law is about giving a "sporting chance to animals". There's no victim as some others have stated.

Better is define offences I think as "offences against people", "offences against property", and "offences against regulations". Offences against people mean violence of some kind. We must never equate the victims of violence with victims of property crimes.

The offences against regulations don't have victims sometimes, such as when there is no other car in sight and we go through red lights (so long as there ain't a camera). Offence occurs, but no one to be harmed. The harm might be properly identified as wasting time and fuel waiting for a light to change.

[ 16. May 2017, 18:35: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]

Posts: 10294 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
As far as I can see, blaming victims of IT crime or burglary for not taking precautions is uncomfortably similar to blaming rape victims for how they dress.

If that is as far as you can see, then you need better specs.
Rape isn't about choice in clothing.

And if you think I was claiming it WAS, you need to read a lot more carefully.

As does mousethief, frankly. Neither of you seem to have read what I actually wrote, but some strange altered version of it.

Anyway, it seems to have done wonders for the discussion.

Alternately if two people don't understand what you wrote, maybe you weren't clear.

--------------------
God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

Posts: 62016 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

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If we all agree that orfeo's post was pretty dumb (except orfeo, apparently), and avoid other interesting but irrelevant excurses (like why Gee is blathering about Kings - does he/she/they live in Gondor?), do we get to return to talking about what a deadshit Holy Smoke is?

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Wronger than a drooling idiot on stupid juice - but I understand his argument.
mousethief (paraphrase)
----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

Posts: 2714 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
If we all agree that orfeo's post was pretty dumb (except orfeo, apparently), and avoid other interesting but irrelevant excurses (like why Gee is blathering about Kings - does he/she/they live in Gondor?), do we get to return to talking about what a deadshit Holy Smoke is?

What more is there to say on that subject?

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

Posts: 62016 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
If we all agree ...

[Killing me]

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 12177 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

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Hopeless naivete. [Help]
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
If we all agree ...

[Killing me]
So, you agree with what orfeo said? Or agree that he didn't say what some of think he said? Or just laughing at the all bit, because all of us are not going to agree on anything? Especially not down here.

Not trying to pick a fight with you, Boogie. Genuinely curious.

I'd rather be kicking the shit out of Holy Smoke*, but the coward isn't playing along at the moment, so let's talk.

*gorpo as well, just because he was a tool on only one thread doesn't mean he is not just as much of one.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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I'm laughing at the idea that it would be possible to get any kind of consensus on the Ship.

Which, imo, is a Very Good Thing. No echo chamber here [Big Grin]

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 12177 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I'm laughing at the idea that it would be possible to get any kind of consensus on the Ship.

Which, imo, is a Very Good Thing. No echo chamber here [Big Grin]

Yeah, always thought that charge a rather blind one.
Yes, the port side of the Ship is more heavily laden that the starboard, but I've been in and watched too many lefty against lefty arguments to think we all think the same.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 15498 | From: out of the corner of your eye | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
As far as I can see, blaming victims of IT crime or burglary for not taking precautions is uncomfortably similar to blaming rape victims for how they dress.

If that is as far as you can see, then you need better specs.
Rape isn't about choice in clothing.

And if you think I was claiming it WAS, you need to read a lot more carefully.

As does mousethief, frankly. Neither of you seem to have read what I actually wrote, but some strange altered version of it.

Anyway, it seems to have done wonders for the discussion.

Alternately if two people don't understand what you wrote, maybe you weren't clear.
Well you both headed off in completely different directions with it so I think it's more likely that each of you brought your own typical biases into the equation. Neither of you can see straight on certain issues.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 17868 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Well you both headed off in completely different directions with it so I think it's more likely that each of you brought your own typical biases into the equation. Neither of you can see straight on certain issues.

Doesn't follow at all. The murkier something is, the MORE misreadings it will engender, not the fewer. But keep digging. You are at least entertaining.

--------------------
God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

Posts: 62016 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Well you both headed off in completely different directions with it so I think it's more likely that each of you brought your own typical biases into the equation. Neither of you can see straight on certain issues.

Doesn't follow at all. The murkier something is, the MORE misreadings it will engender, not the fewer. But keep digging. You are at least entertaining.
You and lilbuddha weren't even dealing with the same post of mine.

Look, I might as well address your particular bit of weirdness given you're the one here right now. Here's what I said:

quote:
It wasn't a "metaphor". It was what leapt into my mind when reading some of the things said here. You might not like the comparison but it was the one generated for me by reading. I didn't go looking for it.
And your response was:

quote:
I don't understand this defense. "I didn't make this up, it was thrust upon me." It was still your decision to post it here.
Why the hell are you talking as if I was trying to blame someone else for me posting? What bit of my post reads as a retraction?

All I did was reject the description "metaphor" and state I wasn't bloody well trying to create a metaphor. I was comparing two things because the stuff that was posted here about blaming the victim reminded me of another situation where it's well-known that people blame the victim and tell the victim that the victim behaved inappropriately.

And if we're going to apply a term to that, it's an analogy, not a bloody metaphor. A metaphor is a non-literal idea that one creates. I was making a comparison between 2 real things.

I'm terribly sorry if some of you can't figure out the difference but that doesn't mean I was being unclear to anyone who understands what a metaphor actually is and could recognise that I wasn't blaming someone else for my metaphor, I was saying there was no metaphor.

[ 20. May 2017, 02:24: Message edited by: orfeo ]

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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