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Source: (consider it) Thread: May I please rip off your gonads?
Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433

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[Host edit - the first article is an extremely difficult read, with graphic recounting of child abuse. If that's not something you want to read, or read at work, you've all been warned. DT]

I have no words to express my anger at snivelling fucktards who have shattered lives, shattered the remnant of gospel credibility of the church I once loved, made us and worse our Christ the spittoon of human consciousness.

Add to that the in depth report and no depths of hell suffice. In OZ we all knew it was coming but seeing the callousness of the perpetrators and the duplicity of their cover-all-up-at-all-costs colleagues - not to mention the sheer fucking dumbness of one or two who eventually saw the light (see the latter link, on pages 11-12, in which the man who later becomes Primate of Australia does not altogether object, as a young man, to noting that one of his friends is being taken off to bed by a rapist) and ...

... and what? I have no words. I feel sick, depressed, angry, vengeful ... and impotent. I missed the lure of some of these predators by a whisker. Others were far less fortunate.

I am angry beyond words. May their gonads be shoved so far up their sphincters that their cingulate and orbitofrontal cortexes implode in a cesspit of faecal plasma. [Mad]

[ 17. May 2017, 11:15: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

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and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433

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PS .. Mr Justice McLennan has released further wise commentary. Personally I think we should have our arses kicked down the gurgler. [Tear]

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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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Hard to read. Terrible abuse, terrible that people knew but did nothing.

Of course, if you're a victim of abuse, you might not want to read these things - but those of us who can, should.

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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Errr... yeah, ok - you didn't know. But then you clearly did know because you sent the abuser away to a retreat to think about it.

What is wrong with you people?

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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What's a "table of lamingtons"?

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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mr cheesy
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.

words fail. Worse than the abuse is the knowing sending of an (even if at that stage only alleged) abuser to deliver the eulogy at the funeral of the mother of the reported victim. FFS.

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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Well, that was a tough read. I'd like to say nothing surprises me any more, but...

I'm also going to tack on a reader advisory to Zappa's OP. I think that wise.

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Lost in Space

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Gee D
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# 13815

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Just appalling, and from people such as Ian Shevill whom we - outside the diocese - had respected. The damage done to these boys is immeasurable.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Well, that was a tough read. I'd like to say nothing surprises me any more, but...

I'm also going to tack on a reader advisory to Zappa's OP. I think that wise.

Thanks, Doc. Good call.

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and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
What's a "table of lamingtons"?

To add to the cognitive dissonance and the sheer evil of the cynical perpetrators, it is a table full of these. ... to so trivialize the living hell of the victims is satanic to the max (them, not you)

[ 16. May 2017, 07:51: Message edited by: Zappa ]

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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
To add to the cognitive dissonance and the sheer evil of the cynical perpetrators, it is a table full of these. ... to so trivialize the living hell of the victims is satanic to the max (them, not you)

Oh right. That just adds to the whole banality of evil of the episode.

Clearly these people thought they could do this stuff and nobody was ever going to be able to stop them. How awful.

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Just appalling, and from people such as Ian Shevill whom we - outside the diocese - had respected. The damage done to these boys is immeasurable.

I read that link in total this morning and was sickened and revolted and anything else like that. I did not want to read it , not even a small amount but kept telling myself that there are those who live everyday with that having been done to them. The least I could do was read through the report.

Yes Shevill had respect by those who had no knowledge of it. And the on going repercussions continue with the resignation of the last bishop who could no longer cope withe the results of his cleaning up the diocese.

[ 16. May 2017, 08:33: Message edited by: Lothlorien ]

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Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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The commission report is pretty sickening; a tissue of bishops "misremembering" if people had told them about abuse, "telling off" of abusers (I mean, wtf?), even promoting the abusers.

In the 1990s.

Really. Someone gives you reason to believe that a priest has been having sex with an underage boy and you just give him a slap and tell him not to do it again?

Seriously: what the actual? What planet were you living on?

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

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Words fail. Zappa's suggestion for them seems apt.

I was up near Newcastle when the Royal Commission was in session [? correct term?] up there last year and would see a parade of men, often broken, giving testimony on the news each night. So terribly sad for them -- and for those who killed themselves due to these horrific actions.

As multipara often said here, "Jesus wept".

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Huia
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# 3473

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Missed the Hostly warning - only read the headlines.

[Projectile]

There aren't enough millstones.

Huia

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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

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Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

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I made the mistake of opening this link in a public place. Had to hold back tears. This is awful. I am so angry at these child rapists, and the fact that those like Peter Rushton and Hatley Gray were never punished for their horrific crimes. It is a cliche, but I have just no words. So fucking heartbreaking.

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Wronger than a drooling idiot on stupid juice - but I understand his argument.
mousethief (paraphrase)
----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

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Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

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At least George Parker's grey head did not go down to the grave in peace.

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Wronger than a drooling idiot on stupid juice - but I understand his argument.
mousethief (paraphrase)
----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
Missed the Hostly warning - only read the headlines.

[Projectile]

There aren't enough millstones.

Huia

Apologies. I've now moved the host edit to the start of the OP, not the end. Hopefully people will catch it.

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Lost in Space

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Am not going to check out the links, but I get the drift.

A couple of things that might useful for both victims/survivors and those who want to help them:

--The book "Survivor Prayers", by Rev. Catherine Foote, regarding survivors of childhood sexual abuse. About pain; being angry with God; coping; and reframing your relationship with God--IF that's something you want to do. Also has a section on abuse by clergy. CF is a survivor herself, and a cool lady. I met her, a long time ago.

--Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests They've been a leader in dealing with clergy abuse in the US. I don't know if they have branches in other countries; but they could probably point you toward some. And there's all sorts of info on their site.

--To abusers: Please get help--right away! You're not responsible for being sick, *but* you are responsible for getting help. Even if the people around you aren't taking your illness seriously.

--To people who are closing their eyes; knowingly turning away; or (especially) clergy and administrators who enable, cover up, move abusers around, refuse to call the police, and tell kids and others to keep quiet:

Get your heads out of your asses, and get your heads and hearts on straight! The abusers are sick. What's your excuse?

--To the enabling clergy and administrators: Millstone. Neck. Repent. Tell the truth. Report the truth to the police and child welfare. Now. No excuses.

[Votive]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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chris stiles
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# 12641

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quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
to so trivialize the living hell of the victims is satanic to the max (them, not you)

I believe that in a real and true sense, such people worshipped Molech.

They 'put their sons and daughters to the flame', literally engaging in child sacrifice to protect themselves and the power they served.

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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I could only manage to read s short way, nausea, rage a
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:

--To abusers: Please get help--right away! You're not responsible for being sick, *but* you are responsible for getting help. Even if the people around you aren't taking your illness seriously.

The abusers here deserve every medieval torture ever devised or imagined. They deserve no help, no rehabilitation, only pain, more pain with respites long enough they do not become inured to the pain.

quote:

--To people who are closing their eyes; knowingly turning away; or (especially) clergy and administrators who enable, cover up, move abusers around, refuse to call the police, and tell kids and others to keep quiet:

They deserve the same.

Disagree if you wish, I'm not coming back to this thread. Shouldn't have read the fucking links Off to a dark corner for a while

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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About the only good thing about this story is that most of the abusers are dead and most of the senior clergy involved are apparently senile.

I still can't quite get over how messed up the whole thing was - not just that people were doing this stuff, but that the church structure seemed to reward them for doing it.

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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Penny S
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# 14768

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I didn't mean to read the links, but I have, the first one.
Words fail.
But I have a query in my mind. How is it that these creatures found each other, back in the days before the internet? Were they all the result of initiation by preceding predators, and formed gangs that way?
And how can it be stopped from happening in the future?

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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[Disappointed]

What an awful bloody mess, sadly not unique to Oz.

I know this is Hell, but [Votive] for the survivors.

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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rolyn
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# 16840

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I haven't read the links. From what others are saying it may well remove the last remaining shred of commitment I have for the institution that is the church.

Hypocrisy doesn't even get anywhere near close where this kind of abomination is concerned.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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chris stiles
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# 12641

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I still can't quite get over how messed up the whole thing was - not just that people were doing this stuff, but that the church structure seemed to reward them for doing it.

And the 'pillars of the community' who are actively advocating for the abusers to this day.
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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Let us never suggest that such deliberate evil acts by persons who planned them, carried them out, covered them, manipulated others, and all the rest, are a result of any form of mental health or other disorder.
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
I haven't read the links. From what others are saying it may well remove the last remaining shred of commitment I have for the institution that is the church.

Hypocrisy doesn't even get anywhere near close where this kind of abomination is concerned.

Exactly. And for that I feel so fucking sad.

--------------------
shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

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Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
But I have a query in my mind. How is it that these creatures found each other, back in the days before the internet? Were they all the result of initiation by preceding predators, and formed gangs that way?

Interesting questions... I wonder that too... How do you know who to go up to and say, "Are you like me?"

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
And how can it be stopped from happening in the future?

What makes me [Mad] is it probably can't. Whenever you have sick indviduals with power complexes there is a risk the innocent suffer. I suppose only processes can be put in place to try and stop it as well as making kids informed of proper an improper behaviour [perhaps well before we might think of them as sexual beings]. But I'd love to be proven wrong.

[ 16. May 2017, 22:17: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]

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Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

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Well said, Golden Key, as so often in the past. [Overused]
Such action is the only hope.

--------------------
Wronger than a drooling idiot on stupid juice - but I understand his argument.
mousethief (paraphrase)
----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Thanks, DK. That's all I can see to fix it.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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lilBuddha (just in case you glance at the thread)--

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I could only manage to read s short way, nausea, rage a
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:

--To abusers: Please get help--right away! You're not responsible for being sick, *but* you are responsible for getting help. Even if the people around you aren't taking your illness seriously.

The abusers here deserve every medieval torture ever devised or imagined. They deserve no help, no rehabilitation, only pain, more pain with respites long enough they do not become inured to the pain.

quote:

--To people who are closing their eyes; knowingly turning away; or (especially) clergy and administrators who enable, cover up, move abusers around, refuse to call the police, and tell kids and others to keep quiet:

They deserve the same.

Disagree if you wish, I'm not coming back to this thread. Shouldn't have read the fucking links Off to a dark corner for a while

Just to be clear:

I have similar rage. I'm not saying that anybody should forgive anyone. In fact, *trying* to forgive can be damaging, unless the person who was hurt deeply feels that they've got to find some way to let go, a little bit, for *their own* good. NOT that they have to make nice with the offender. And DEFINITELY NOT that the person hurt puts themself and/or their kids in danger.

OTOH, IME and observation, rage can be toxic if that's basically where you (gen.) live and imagine for long periods of time. It can drown you.

It's taken me many years and lots of hard work to get to where I am now. **For me** (not saying anyone else should do it), it's involved therapy; spiritual exploration; facing some really nasty theology about God, and why things happen, and who's responsible, and who gets punished, and would eternal punishment make anything better; agreeing with universalism (everyone saved and healed and Home); a lot of reading, and thinking, and making mistakes, and trying to figure things out; and hashing out how (for me) it can make some sense.

It might be called "GK's Unified Field Theory"; or "GK's Answer To Life, The Universe, And Everything", abbreviated as "GK's 42". (Not being flip about abuse; but just a little bit flip about my self and process. [Biased] [Angel] )

IME, "forgiveness" is most likely to happen after a lot of work to get some perspective on the offender; feeling a tiny bit freer, because of that; and taking a new, tiny step in my life--because the person isn't holding me back as much.

IME and AIUI, people can absolutely be monsters in other people's lives--but they are still human. (I still struggle with that.) So if everyone is to be saved and made whole, that includes monster-humans, too.

Plus some sexual abusers can and do get well, with help. Others can, with help, get a little bit better. There isn't yet a treatment that will fix everyone. But it needs to be found.

If I believe in anything, in the sense of choosing where to stand, it's that everyone and everything has to ultimately be healed, and safe, and well, and Home.

Not in a "There, there, what you did doesn't matter" sense. But hard work and healing.

FWIW. YMMV.

[ 17. May 2017, 09:41: Message edited by: Golden Key ]

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 16959 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
# 440

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Well, that was a tough read. I'd like to say nothing surprises me any more, but...

I'm also going to tack on a reader advisory to Zappa's OP. I think that wise.

Took the liberty of making the reader advisory more eye catching.

[Votive] seems inadequate, but it's the best I have.

Tubbs

[ 17. May 2017, 11:21: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

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chris stiles
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# 12641

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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:

But I have a query in my mind. How is it that these creatures found each other, back in the days before the internet?

I assume in a time when such things weren't taken seriously (on which note see the articles), they would hint at such things until they found someone else who responded accordingly.

quote:

Were they all the result of initiation by preceding predators, and formed gangs that way?

I'd be careful with this line of reasoning; I believe the current thinking is that the idea that 'the abused then go on to become abusers' is marginal at best as a cause.
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Penny S
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# 14768

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I would be careful - but there was evidence that some of the perpetrators had been abused themselves, so I was using what was in the published material. I would never go in the other direction. And it would be one way of forming a group. Dropping hints would have to be very carefully done, though. And have the expectation of a response at times.
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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:

Were they all the result of initiation by preceding predators, and formed gangs that way?

I'd be careful with this line of reasoning; I believe the current thinking is that the idea that 'the abused then go on to become abusers' is marginal at best as a cause.
What can't, in any way be excused, is that for decades, if not centuries, the pleas of the young have been dismissed by those in authority. Even when they know that abuse has taken place, they do no than send them on holiday or move them on.

Then again, is it possible that "covering up" has become so much part of the fabric of churches? If it has, then churches have probably served whatever purpose they ever had.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Dropping hints would have to be very carefully done, though. And have the expectation of a response at times.

I was going on the article - where it appeared that those prominent in the community who supported the priests minimized the impacts by adopting euphemistic descriptions, which I assumed could also function as a kind of hint you dropped.

Besides, in an era where such things were excused as 'locker room talk' they presumably weren't that careful.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

Then again, is it possible that "covering up" has become so much part of the fabric of churches? If it has, then churches have probably served whatever purpose they ever had.

I suspect the church became a 'Power' (in the Walter Wink sense) that they served above all things - literally going so far as to sacrifice the lives of other human beings in order to preserve it and the particular community for which it was foundational.
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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
I suspect the church became a 'Power' (in the Walter Wink sense) that they served above all things - literally going so far as to sacrifice the lives of other human beings in order to preserve it and the particular community for which it was foundational.

I'm not sure the church so much became a power as was so enameled with those with power within the structure that they were more-or-less untouchable and unaccountable.

I find it very hard to believe that this stuff was going on in public and that everyone knew about it. I could be wrong, but it reads to me that there were men in powerful positions who everyone else had to kowtow to, and beneath them a bunch of abusers who (for whatever reason) had their ear and their protection. And it wasn't just within the church either, these men were supported by other powerful people at the edge or outside the church.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:

I find it very hard to believe that this stuff was going on in public and that everyone knew about it.

I don't think 'everybody' knew about it in the sense you mean, but certainly a lot of people did, look at the examples in that article; one of the people in power effectively operated as a lawyer to the church and was in the position to know the scale of the problem, who then down-played it via euphemisms, some of the other choir-boys knew, presumably more parents would have raised concerns with their priests and so on.

The same pattern is seen elsewhere; there was a case in America where it was clear that some parents (specifically mothers because of the context in which the allegations eventually came out) in the church concerned knew something was off and went out of their way to keep their children out of harms way, while exercising less than due diligence over children who were perhaps more vulnerable.

In each case, it was known by the PTB, it was an open secret among certain circles in the church concerned, who were either kept cowed by the examples of other people who had attempted to report such things and been destroyed, or were keeping silent for complex reasons of their own. In some cases it it seemed to amount to almost wilful ignorance.

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Zappa
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When I first moved to Melbourne, as a very innocent young man in 1982, I heard rumours that there were paedophile networks operating in the churches and police. I simply couldn't believe it - priests were caring and compassionate human beings, and the police where tough individuals not given to hurting children. And so my myopia stayed for years, many years, until I interviewed a victim/survivor of abuse a decade and a half later. But even that I saw as an exception to the rule (and there were some peculiarities about the case, not least that it was heterosexual hebephilia, rather than homosexual paedo/hebephilia), until the screams grew louder, and the Royal Commissions were called ... [Tear]

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Banner Lady
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And there is no end to the tendrils of this. How safe those in power must have felt when the rings of the abusers included police, the judiciary, the teachers and the priests. How much they must have enjoyed poor parents working their tails off to afford private education in the mistaken belief it would better the lives of their children - the very children that were preyed upon mercilessly by these sadistic bastards.

Now stories are coming out about similar circles of abuse and sextortion within government circles. May all things hidden be revealed. It's a great prayer. And a dangerous one. Because then the evil exposed and the victims of it need to be appropriately dealt with. I hope the world is changed because of it.

Sadly it makes many women immediately suspicious of ANY male who loves working with kids. Sick, sad world.

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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.

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