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Source: (consider it) Thread: Not again
chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
This makes the investigation more difficult and damages our security relationship with our closest ally. Those assholes. What part of "shut the fuck up" is so hard to understand?

There are some rumours that this occurred because the US services were severely pissed that they had warned the UK about former members of the LIFG in Manchester including Abedi, and they hadn't paid much attention.
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Sipech
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Tonight, it's London Bridge. Can hear the helicopters from here. Early aftermath now; I'm sure the fuller picture will become clear soon.
[Votive]

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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile

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Martin60
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So, where were the bollards?

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Love wins

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Ian Climacus

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Oh fuck. I woke up hoping to hear on the news of another Trump gaffe and got this...

[Votive] for all.

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Nick Tamen

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[Votive] [Votive] [Votive]

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Pigwidgeon

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[Votive]

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Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

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Golden Key
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[Votive]

Why can't these idjits stick to violent video games, or base jumping?

(Not wishing harm to other people who do those things.)

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
So, where were the bollards?

Where is the specially trained and armed Civil defence force?

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
So, where were the bollards?

Where is the specially trained and armed Civil defence force?
In both cases, there will always be places which are not covered providing opportunities for criminals to cause mayhem. We can't put a ring of steel along every road. We can't have an armed bobby on every street corner.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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rolyn
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It is somewhat reassuring that armed police arrived at the scene within 8 minutes and took the necessary action.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Schroedinger's cat

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In truth, it is another horrendous attack, but it seems to have been contained quickly. Which is as good as can be expected.

Prayers for those who are affected. [Votive]

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Blog
My books for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

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Martin60
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Bollards, fully armed police, and BOLLARDS, and troops, and BOLLARDS, AND talking with our enemies as Thatcher's government did of course, and BOLLARDS, and surgical military action. And bollards.

Theresa May, right on having a full, open, difficult, embarrassing conversation with all sectors of society and above all on policing the internet. A 'braver' new world. On the long arc of the moral universe.

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Love wins

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mr cheesy
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Armed police are not going to stop terrorists killing people using knifes and white vans.

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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Curiosity killed ...

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There have been armed police patrolling the south bank of the Thames since the Manchester terrorist attack, I met two pairs last weekend, patrolling as I walked from the National Theatre to St Paul's at 10pm. I suspect they were patrolling as far as Borough Market because all that section is busy at night.

Martin60 I don't think you realise what putting bollards in all the possible places there could be an attack in London would mean. It would narrow arterial routes which are already close to gridlock. Those bridges over the Thames are mostly main roads through the capital, London Bridge is incredibly busy.

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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mr cheesy
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I think Martin is highlighting that the bollard talk isn't practical, CK.

When I was in Cardiff last week there were teams of armed police in the street, in the main shopping centres and I've heard even at the Eisteddod (that's an annual Welsh-language festival, in case anyone is interested).

The problem is that these armed police aren't actually very effective. Unless they're stopping people carrying large bags (of which there are a large number in central Cardiff because of gyms etc), how is this helping to stop bombings?

Sadly a person with a knife can cause a lot of damage even if there armed police nearby. In a crowded shopping mall or other crowed place, even very low-tech weapons are going to cause a lot of damage and if the terrorists aren't worried about death then the police aren't much of a deterrent.

Without having a total lockdown, it is hard to see how they could be - indeed, the only effective system known to prevent terrorism is via intelligence not guns.

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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Baptist Trainfan
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Yes, I agree totally. Even if you have a "ring of steel", there is still the possibility of an outrage taking place during bag checks etc.
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orfeo

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Perfect physical defences are impossible.

The better defence is to stop people getting it into their heads to commit these acts in the first place.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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mr cheesy
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There are also reports that the armed police are stretched to the limit. Presumably the current situation with armed police being seen on the streets is not one which can physically continue indefinitely.

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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Bishops Finger
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Well, no, it can't. But how can people who, for whatever reason, are prepared to die be prevented from perpetrating these simple, low-tech attacks?

[Help]

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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Sipech
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
There are also reports that the armed police are stretched to the limit. Presumably the current situation with armed police being seen on the streets is not one which can physically continue indefinitely.

It seems that the current generation of terrorists isn't particularly bright. They keep going for targets that, though prominent, are relatively well defended. The police would probably not have been able to respond with such speed and force if the targets had been in Guildford, Leamington Spa or Blackburn.

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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
It seems that the current generation of terrorists isn't particularly bright. They keep going for targets that, though prominent, are relatively well defended. The police would probably not have been able to respond with such speed and force if the targets had been in Guildford, Leamington Spa or Blackburn.

I suspect this is because of bragging rights - look what we can do in central London, right under the noses of the armed police and in one of the most heavily defended cities in the world. There would be less propaganda value in attacking Leamington Spa.

This might also suggest that there aren't too many people who are prepared to do this and that they're choosing very specific high profile targets.

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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Martin60
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I'm afraid I do mean it about the bollards.

And why are the BBC being witless or worse in making no comment that in all three recent attacks the 'Love For All, Hatred For None' banners at the front of memorial events and spoken by an Imam today are not of the Muslim community?

I've asked them twice. No comment of course. I don't want to raise this on Facebook, but it needs to be part of May's difficult, embarrassing conversation.

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Love wins

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I'm afraid I do mean it about the bollards.

WTF are you on about? What bollard and where? How exactly are bollards protecting people against knife-wielding murderers?

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I'm afraid I do mean it about the bollards.

But you can't put bollards down both sides of every city street in Britain. Apart from anything else, there may not be space ... and how would people get in and out of vehicles, passengers get on and off buses, vans make deliveries?

Mind you, Lisbon manages it on some streets - but that's to stop people parking on the tram tracks!

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:

And why are the BBC being witless or worse in making no comment that in all three recent attacks the 'Love For All, Hatred For None' banners at the front of memorial events and spoken by an Imam today are not of the Muslim community?

It is a phrase from the Ahmadiyya, a pacifist Muslim sect. Not sure what your point is.

Are you saying that somehow the Quakers shouldn't put slogans up at peace rallies?

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I suspect this is because of bragging rights - look what we can do in central London, right under the noses of the armed police and in one of the most heavily defended cities in the world. There would be less propaganda value in attacking Leamington Spa.

True; but I was fairly recently in Bury St. Edmunds at a time when the lawyers, judges and police were due to hold a Civic Service in the Cathedral, and I can tell you that security was pretty tight.

I think the real problem with all this is that, even if you vatly increase surveillance (an idea which I abhor anyway), you are going to end up with far too much material, most of which is irrelevant. Quite apart from folk who may be completely off the security "radar", decisions are always going to have to be made about who to keep an eye on and who to leave alone. And the last hing we want is for the entire Muslim community to be alienated because the police are constantly carting off suspects who prove to be totally innocent.

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:

And why are the BBC being witless or worse in making no comment that in all three recent attacks the 'Love For All, Hatred For None' banners at the front of memorial events and spoken by an Imam today are not of the Muslim community?

It is a phrase from the Ahmadiyya, a pacifist Muslim sect. Not sure what your point is.

Are you saying that somehow the Quakers shouldn't put slogans up at peace rallies?

They are not Muslim. Not according to Muslims. They do not represent the Muslim community by 1%

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Love wins

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
hey are not Muslim. Not according to Muslims. They do not represent the Muslim community by 1%

So what? I don't understand your point.

[ 04. June 2017, 14:38: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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Martin60
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I know mate. That's the point. Your analogy is nothing like the reality. The Ahmadiyya have LESS credibility with Sunnis than Quakers or Hare Krishna. They are persecuted heretics.

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Love wins

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I know mate. That's the point. Your analogy is nothing like the reality. The Ahmadiyya have LESS credibility with Sunnis than Quakers or Hare Krishna. They are persecuted heretics.

Martin, please stop talking in riddles and tell me what the problem is.

A religious minority has put up posters at memorial events. So what?

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:

And why are the BBC being witless or worse in making no comment that in all three recent attacks the 'Love For All, Hatred For None' banners at the front of memorial events and spoken by an Imam today are not of the Muslim community?

It is a phrase from the Ahmadiyya, a pacifist Muslim sect. Not sure what your point is.

Are you saying that somehow the Quakers shouldn't put slogans up at peace rallies?

They are not Muslim. Not according to Muslims. They do not represent the Muslim community by 1%
That still makes them more representative than the terrorists are.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Curiosity killed ...

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On BBC Radio 4's Sunday this morning there was a long interview with Dr Ibrar Majid, the lead Trauma and Orthopaedic Surgeon at Royal Manchester Children's Hospital talking to Martin Bashir about treating the victims of the Manchester attack. He was asked how he squares attending a mosque as did the suicide bomber. He said he didn't think his religion lead to murdering children or anyone (he's also volunteered to help in the aftermath of earthquakes). Are you going to say he is not a Muslim too?

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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Martin60
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Indeed. By several orders of magnitude.

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Love wins

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
On BBC Radio 4's Sunday this morning there was a long interview with Dr Ibrar Majid, the lead Trauma and Orthopaedic Surgeon at Royal Manchester Children's Hospital talking to Martin Bashir about treating the victims of the Manchester attack. He was asked how he squares attending a mosque as did the suicide bomber. He said he didn't think his religion lead to murdering children or anyone (he's also volunteered to help in the aftermath of earthquakes). Are you going to say he is not a Muslim too?

Sorry?

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Love wins

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Curiosity killed ...

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You are complaining that mosques with peace banners are saying something that is not Islamic. So is the surgeon who treated many of the Manchester victims also not Islamic because he thinks his religion stands for peace?

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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Sioni Sais
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Martin60, if you haven't worked this out yet, you have dug yourself into a hole. Stop, before it caves in on you.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Martin60
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mr cheesy. A religious minority that everyone assumes to be part of the Muslim minority is accepted as that by the BBC, who MUST know better, to the point of being interviewed as such. It isn't part of the Muslim minority.

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Love wins

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
mr cheesy. A religious minority that everyone assumes to be part of the Muslim minority is accepted as that by the BBC, who MUST know better, to the point of being interviewed as such. It isn't part of the Muslim minority.

BBC TV crew interviews an Ahmadiyya imam who tells them what he believes. Most of audience is unaware of the intricacies of Islam and associated sects.

I still don't see the problem here. This is only like the BBC interviewing a free church minister and the audience being unaware of the differences between him and the Anglican church.

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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mr cheesy
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The BBC and the wider British public are fairly ignorant about Islam - but I suspect almost nobody believes that Islam has a figure like the Archbishop of Canterbury who (at least in the public imagination) speaks on behalf of all Christians.

As long as the BBC has correctly identified this Imam, I can't see the problem. Clearly nobody thinks he speaks on behalf of all of Islam given that he is saying something very different to the ideology of IS. So at the crudest level, the BBC is showing that there are people who self-identify as Muslim who are different to IS.

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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Moo

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Perfect physical defences are impossible.

The better defence is to stop people getting it into their heads to commit these acts in the first place.

Do you have any suggestions as to how this can be accomplished?

Moo

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See you later, alligator.

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Martin60
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And that hole is what Sioni Sais? We need to see and hear what the ACTUAL - broad and deep - Islamic community really thinks. To have the conversation with them. Or not? To include them. I think they are being EXCLUDED, as well as excluding themselves, keeping their heads down.

I find it fascinating that Muslims identify as more British than the British and that Muslim youth is more tolerant than non-Muslim youth.

Yet they are part of a highly patriarchal, homophobic and OFFICIALLY, theoretically, formally 'hateful' community. Christians are guilty of unforgivable blasphemy as are atheists. Of course Christians are the biggest haters and damnationists of all, so may be there's no issue, it's a balance of ... terror ... Christianity seems to embody both Salafist and Ahmadiyya rhetoric.

There needs to be a grown-up conversation that acknowledges all of this and more. The Ahmadiyya ARE significant as an indicator of the deep, sub-surface issues going on here.

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Love wins

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
The BBC and the wider British public are fairly ignorant about Islam - but I suspect almost nobody believes that Islam has a figure like the Archbishop of Canterbury who (at least in the public imagination) speaks on behalf of all Christians.

As long as the BBC has correctly identified this Imam, I can't see the problem. Clearly nobody thinks he speaks on behalf of all of Islam given that he is saying something very different to the ideology of IS. So at the crudest level, the BBC is showing that there are people who self-identify as Muslim who are different to IS.

I think the problem then becomes one of people thinking that there are only two groups of Muslims: nice ones and terrorists. They may be aware too that there are Sunnis and Shias who seem intent on blowing their brains out. But that's as far as it goes.

There is also a difficulty in that (a) any Imam who speaks will say that ISIS are not "real Muslims" and (b) ISIS members will say that the Imam and his colleagues are not "real Muslims". I'm afraid that neither lot can get away with saying that (but does).

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Perfect physical defences are impossible.

The better defence is to stop people getting it into their heads to commit these acts in the first place.

Do you have any suggestions as to how this can be accomplished?

Moo

Number one on my list would be to stop playing into the radicals script. When the radicals say that "the West is the enemy of Islam" don't treat muslims as potential enemies. Stop putting up barriers to muslims living ordinary decent lives - so, no travel restrictions based on religion for a start. Don't talk about internment, or restricting what people can wear. Treat immigrants as valued citizens, not undesirable temporary residents. Open our borders to accept those in desperate need of refuge. Be who we aspire to be, not who the radical islamists tell their followers we are - prove the radicals wrong.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Baptist Trainfan
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And what about our foreign policy?

Not just intervention in places like Libya or Iraq, but continued relations with Saudi?

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Doublethink.
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It would probably be helpful to hear from moderate imams in the public sphere more often. For example, the Rev Richard Coles turns up on Have I Got News For You and has a show on LBC (or some other radio station). In these situations he's not preaching per se, he's just participating in public life.

When it's Christmas and Easter, the news covers the archbishops' messages in some detail, maybe they could do the same for prominent moderate imams at the Eid.

Soap operas often take on current issues as storylines, perhaps something suitable could be done there.

I am sure there are other possibilities.

[ 04. June 2017, 16:12: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I think the problem then becomes one of people thinking that there are only two groups of Muslims: nice ones and terrorists. They may be aware too that there are Sunnis and Shias who seem intent on blowing their brains out. But that's as far as it goes.

I don't see why there is a problem with believing that there are (a) Muslims who want to destroy the country with acts of mindless violence and (b) Muslims who want to be part of a pluralist, secular society.

quote:
There is also a difficulty in that (a) any Imam who speaks will say that ISIS are not "real Muslims" and (b) ISIS members will say that the Imam and his colleagues are not "real Muslims". I'm afraid that neither lot can get away with saying that (but does).
This makes no sense. Why wouldn't you want Imams on TV saying that IS don't represent them or their community?

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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Doublethink.
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I think it would be helpful to understand why terrorist organisations call for these actions, and why a small number of people carry them out.

It is not senseless, or mindless, or madness - the constant repetition of these ephithets is very misleading.

This one explanation: https://www.juancole.com/2015/11/daesh-actually-want.html. This another https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/ which is I think somewhat prejudiced about Islam - in that if a Jewish group suddenly started slaughtering their enemies and cutting their genitals off as a tribute gift, we'd probably not see them as representing the pure form of Judaism.

Then there is, very different, account: https://www.thenation.com/article/what-i-discovered-from-interviewing-isis-prisoners/

I suspect the dynamics behind homegrown IS inspired attackers maybe different again. In some ways their biographies seem very similar to non-deological spree killers, https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-how-and-why-sex-differences/201212/running-amok-why-are-virtually-all-spree-killers- men There are some similarities with family annihilators http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/anatomy-of-family-murder-killing-spree-home-invasion-a7639966.html.

All these explanations are partial, but if we could develop a good synthesis, it would improve intelligence led responses to suspects - it would help to know from a potential pool of thousands, who really is the critical risk.

[ 04. June 2017, 17:51: Message edited by: Doc Tor ]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Curiosity killed ...

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Jack Monroe on twitter suggested:

Stop terrorism:

1. Stop arming the Middle East.
2. Stop bombing their kids.
3. Stop cutting Police.
4. Stop cutting mental health services.

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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Stetson
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quote:
Stop terrorism:

1. Stop arming the Middle East.
2. Stop bombing their kids.
3. Stop cutting Police.
4. Stop cutting mental health services.


If, as suggested by the first two recommendations, the underlying issues are political, then how relevant are mental-health issues?

I guess maybe if we're including things like Prevent as "mental-health services", it makes sense, though from what I've read about that program, it's more about social integration than mental-health treatment.

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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Curiosity killed ...

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# 11770

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The need for mental health services ties into Doublethink's point that the ideological killers have similar profiles to the non-ideological killers.

Prevent is all about identifying people at risk of radicalisation - and informing the relevant authorities to ensure support, in theory. It's not a brilliant piece of legislation as it was drawn up in a hurry to address Islamicisation and not the other radicalisation opportunities which are more likely in much of the country.

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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