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Source: (consider it) Thread: Not again
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Stop terrorism:

1. Stop arming the Middle East.
2. Stop bombing their kids.
3. Stop cutting Police.
4. Stop cutting mental health services.


If, as suggested by the first two recommendations, the underlying issues are political, then how relevant are mental-health issues?
Because there are multiple underlying issues. The first two address one of the reasons why some muslims are unhappy with the West. But, it takes more than that to drive people to commit murderous acts. One of those things may well be mental health.

Of course, the first two are also not essential. There are plenty of examples of people committing murderous acts who are not influenced by events in the Middle East. So, we also need to look at other forms of radicalism that endanger our society - and, in the case of the far right nutters since they (at present) are particularly focussed on angering the islamic communities.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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Hostpost

Doublethink. FFS. The url function is there for a reason. You managed the correct tags once (on your fourth link) out of five tries.

On the assumption that your excuse will be simply lame and entirely without merit, you should probably strive to do better next time.

DT
HH


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Improbable Botany

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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597

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And just trying to be helpful, not shadow-modding or anything, but if you absolutely can't get the url function to work, you can go to tinyurl.com to make your link shorter.

I use that service a lot; it's very user friendly. And their preview function is good for posting NSFW stuff in accordance with the Ship's double-click rule.

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Hostpost

Doublethink. FFS. The url function is there for a reason. You managed the correct tags once (on your fourth link) out of five tries.

On the assumption that your excuse will be simply lame and entirely without merit, you should probably strive to do better next time.

DT
HH

Now I am really confused, as I don't remember typing any URL tags.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Stetson
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# 9597

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Doublethink: In your post dated "04 June, 2017 17:48", there are a bunch of links that show up unshortened. I think what the mods wanted you to do is post something like, for example...

Here is a link to the Atlantic article

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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Okay, we're not discussing this here. I'll post in Styx.

DT
HH


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Improbable Botany

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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It doesn't take long for our sense of humour to re-emerge. Note the man saving his pint 🤣🤣

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

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Re stopping terrorism, I doubt you can. Sorry. I'd love to live in a world where everyone can be healed and looked after and feel a sense of belonging, but unless some major changes happen to us as a species I don't see it happening. Ghastly people bent on destruction will always exist.

That's not to say we should do nothing. As has been mentioned, better mental health and support services, better engagement with each other and in the world's "trouble spots" rather than drones bombing children to kingdom come, etc. may prevent some people turning to terrorism. But I fear they'll always be with us.

And it always amazes me how London picks itself up and goes on. [Overused]

And because this is Hell, FU Trump and your tweets referencing London's mayor.

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Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

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And an article showing a politician (Australian) fit for hell.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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Hey doublethink. Never mind the URLs, feel the width. Good takes. The apocalyptic crap is obvious, brought on by the US destruction of Iraqi society and the underlying psychology of 'useless' males.

What amazes me is despite the explicit violent extreme patriarchy of Islam's founding story, its adherents are less of a problem than those who are violently patriarchal Christians. Muslims seem to want to live in peace despite their religion and Christians want to be violent in the name of theirs.

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Love wins

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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Sparing a thought for those caught up in trouble in the Philippines. Sounds utterly horrendous.

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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Cameron's former advisor, Hilton, calls for May's resignation, as she was Home Secretary for 6 years. Rather surprising, but perhaps if there wasn't an election, this would be more widespread. Of course, May will do her giant squirrel act - look over there, large squirrel doing something strange.

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no path

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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
There is also a difficulty in that (a) any Imam who speaks will say that ISIS are not "real Muslims" and (b) ISIS members will say that the Imam and his colleagues are not "real Muslims". I'm afraid that neither lot can get away with saying that (but does).
This makes no sense. Why wouldn't you want Imams on TV saying that IS don't represent them or their community?
You misunderstand me. All I'm saying is that both moderate Imams and ISIS terrorists take the argument down to "the others aren't real Muslims" - which doesn't lead to a helpful discussion.

Same as Fundamentalist Christians saying the Roman Catholics aren't "real Christians" and vice-versa - not that we kill each other (but we did ...).

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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

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Some stories that Corbyn is supporting the calls for May to resign. I think this would be unwise, as the election is supposed to be when you get rid of her. Still, her 'enough is enough' is pretty ironic, as if somebody else was in charge of security and police numbers.

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no path

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Highfive
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# 12937

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Hey, been a while

For the record, I have lived, worked and played soccer with Muslims. Until recently, I had a job which included Halal food preparation. I know Muslims can be good people. I know how cautious some are feeling in Brisbane.

In the article London attacker: Khuram Butt showed his extremist colours :
"The police turned up and Anjem, Khuram Butt and two other men were escorted away. I am not surprised that Khuram Butt carried out the terrorist attack and there are serious questions for the authorities."

While I want a peaceful world and #truelove and all that, it seems like moderate Islam combats extreme Islam by asking extremists to leave the mosque. They then go on to be the police's problem, whether they are reported or not.

Police don't police religion. They police against provable criminal activity.

That only leaves moderate imams to police Islam. Am I the only one seeing a rift in responsibility here? Am I racist for doing so?

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Ohher
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# 18607

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I'm not sure I can (or want to) answer your last two questions, Highfive, but put the same problem another way 'round, and I think you can answer for yourself.

Should we rely on Christian clergy to "police" extremist members of their flocks -- that is, somehow stop individuals who might possibly shoot a doctor who does abortions or blow up clinics where these are performed?

Should we expect clergy to somehow keep track of and stamp out racism, classism, sexism, etc. in those who espouse these views and might act on them in extreme or violent ways?

What should clergy do about the homophobes in their pews who might assault the LGBT deacon some Sunday at Communion?

How would these clergy go about this, exactly?

I live in New England, where the local culture is to keep potentially controversial views to oneself, limiting church conversation to the weather and "what a nice sermon," etc.

IME, most mainstream Protestant ministers only know about their congregants what those congregants choose to share. I have no way of knowing, but suspect the average imam is in much the same boat.

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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free

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Highfive
Shipmate
# 12937

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quote:
Originally posted by Ohher:
Should we rely on Christian clergy to "police" extremist members of their flocks -- that is, somehow stop individuals who might possibly shoot a doctor who does abortions or blow up clinics where these are performed?

Should we expect clergy to somehow keep track of and stamp out racism, classism, sexism, etc. in those who espouse these views and might act on them in extreme or violent ways?

No, you're right. That is not the clergy's responsibility. If those sorts of individuals interrupted a sermon to speak their views, they would be escorted off the premises the same way.

That's what I needed to understand.

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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870

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Today: Notre Dame.

Very early reports, I hasten to add. Picture very unclear. [Votive]

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
Today: Notre Dame.

Very early reports, I hasten to add. Picture very unclear. [Votive]

Ah bollocks, this isn't going away is it.

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Let's wait to hear about Paris. The attack is not comparable in terms of method, nor damage to others. It may be terror, it may be something else.

I am coming to believe more over time, that violence is the greatest evil.

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351

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On the subject of "who promotes/polices what" there's a potentially interesting tangent on this twitter thread.

If you click through the linked tweet to the Dave Gorman thread and read that, at the end it then links into a thread by "Jammy Dodger" regarding Anjem Choudry which is all too sadly plausible.

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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)

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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530

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The irony in the CV of London attacker Khuram Butt is astounding:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40173157

"Proven track record of a motivated, zealous and trusted individual with the drive to make a difference and improve, in any given environment. Fights tooth and nail to achieve the best results for the business, while keeping himself balanced and focused. Ability to work under intense pressure whilst managing multiple tasks. A strong team player with extensive communication skills. Adept at communication with a variety of people effectively and relaxed in tentative situations."

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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597

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quote:
The irony in the CV of London attacker Khuram Butt is astounding:


Well, pretty much everyone writes boilerplate self-flattery on their CV, so the discrpeancy you note is likely present most times that someone with a CV does something sociopathic.

[ 06. June 2017, 17:27: Message edited by: Stetson ]

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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
Today: Notre Dame.

Very early reports, I hasten to add. Picture very unclear. [Votive]

Ah bollocks, this isn't going away is it.
Not for a season. How can it?

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Love wins

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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Just days after the terrorist attacks in London, followed by pleas from all and sundry for people to "Keep calm and carry on", Theresa May comes out with a willingness to abridge human rights legislation.

Does anything more clearly say "You win" to terrorists? We haven't made best use of intelligence and our police are overstretched thanks to this very government own stupid policies.

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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
The irony in the CV of London attacker Khuram Butt is astounding:


Well, pretty much everyone writes boilerplate self-flattery on their CV, so the discrepancy you note is likely present most times that someone with a CV does something sociopathic.
Yeah, sounds like the standard 3/4 BS for resumes. Here's a sample resume from the Monster.com job-hunting site. Granted, maybe UK resumes have a different style.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Just days after the terrorist attacks in London, followed by pleas from all and sundry for people to "Keep calm and carry on", Theresa May comes out with a willingness to abridge human rights legislation.

Does anything more clearly say "You win" to terrorists? We haven't made best use of intelligence and our police are overstretched thanks to this very government own stupid policies.

Policies which have only existed since last July?

[Killing me]

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Just days after the terrorist attacks in London, followed by pleas from all and sundry for people to "Keep calm and carry on", Theresa May comes out with a willingness to abridge human rights legislation.

Does anything more clearly say "You win" to terrorists? We haven't made best use of intelligence and our police are overstretched thanks to this very government own stupid policies.

Policies which have only existed since last July?

[Killing me]

The Conservative government has, since 2010, been cutting police numbers. That's one of the policy I was on about. Encouraging known members of a proscribed organisation (the LIFG) to come and go was another. For a substantial part of that period Theresa May was Home Secretary, in other words law & order was on her watch.

I'm not sure what is more disappointing: her irresponsibility or your ignorance.

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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Sounds like the Iranian parliament is under siege now. I'm not sure what to think - something about our enemy's enemy..?

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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YES! The poor bloody Shia Iranians. With hands blood guilt in the Yemen. Ganged up on by antidemocratic Western consumerist interests exporting terror every which way. Ah well, at least we're back to the bi-polar Soviet era world with the same players.

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Love wins

Posts: 16192 | From: More Corieltauvi than Dobunni now. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Sounds like the Iranian parliament is under siege now. I'm not sure what to think - something about our enemy's enemy..?

1. We need to know who is our enemy to know who is our enemy's enemy.

2. Experience shows that it's unusual for our enemy's enemy to be a friend - especially after our enemy is defeated.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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Jim Bakker weighs in on the Manchester attacks.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Jim Bakker weighs in on the Manchester attacks.

Jim Bakker? What rock did he crawl out from after all these years? And why doesn't he crawl back under it?

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Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

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'They cursed themselves with this concert'.

[Mad]

Fuckwit.

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
# 15978

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Wow. Someone in the comments invites him to Manchester. I'd like to show him around and introduce him to a few people.

The woman to his right, who ever she is, starts at about 0:55 saying something about 'the deaths of those little girls...this takes it to a new low...' But then Bakker cuts in to ask the name of the show ('Dangerous Woman Tour', Grande in rubber bunny mask) and by 1:20 is saying that the concert goers? promoters? brought the 'curse' on themselves, moving quickly into 'God is not mocked'.

This seems to give the woman somewhere to go - she is shaking her head at Bakker. In disbelief? In agreement that God is not mocked? In an unconscious attempt to dislodge the massive cloud of cognitive dissonance in which she suddenly finds herself engulfed?

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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Jim Bakker weighs in on the Manchester attacks.

Jim Bakker? What rock did he crawl out from after all these years? And why doesn't he crawl back under it?
Hopefully a big rock. One that descends at high speed onto his head.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

Posts: 31857 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

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For some reason I have felt unable to make much comment on the latest attacks in Britain, but after watching the grainy footage of the moments in which armed police put an end to the London Bridge attack I found this, and firsthand accounts, to be strangely compelling.
Voyourism yes, to my own greater shame yes, but nevertheless powerful stuff.

Not that any 'good over evil' narrative or sense of poignancy at the courageous efforts of ordinary folk will be of much help to those who have lost loved ones, or others who fall to the inevitable survivor's guilt and PTSD.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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The fuckers tried to hire a truck and had petrol bombs and blow torches.

Bollards.

Background checks on all truck, van and car hires. I know. Bollards. They'll hijack including coaches. Bollards. Terrorist alert on all truck thefts and BOLLARDS.

Mobile armed police on highest foot traffic intersections.

And dialogue with the other. I expect Steve Chalke to take the lead in this. There is no other who can.

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Love wins

Posts: 16192 | From: More Corieltauvi than Dobunni now. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

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Martin, you don't know what you're asking with bollard in central London, having walked down the Thames past London Bridge yesterday afternoon. There's already a lot of street furniture, lots of bollards on the north bank around the new cycle route. Any more bollards and those roads will not be accessible.

I spent last week dodging the cordons around the Barking sites. Tuesday* there was a cordon around the flat that was in the news, huge police presence plus broadcasters (that's the quick way from work to the shops at lunchtime). Wednesday there was an additional cordon around a college which blocked the quick route to the station and another huge police presence. Thursday Barking Station was crawling in journalists and police and there was a huge search going on around the back of the block of flats that continued to be cordoned off all week, plus circling police helicopter.

And inevitably, a work colleague was in bits because one of the terrorists was a neighbour, someone they'd known since he was 12. Inevitably because I suspected someone I worked with would either know a victim or a terrorist.

* I was at a different site on Monday and Friday. Lots of police presence at the other site on Friday too.

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Terrorist alert on all truck thefts and BOLLARDS.

1. There is nothing to stop someone hiring a truck quite legitimately and using their real name, if they're going to kill themselves. It doesn't have to be hijacked.

2. Here in Cardiff we had loads of security barriers around the city centre for the Champions' League final. They worked OK because a lot of roads were closed to vehicles (as per usual for big matches at the Principality Stadium), but they would be totally impractical on a "normal" basis. Plus, I was concerned that, if there had been a panic, fleeing people would have been crushed on the barriers (as per the Ibrox Stadium disaster or Hillsborough).

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Alan Cresswell

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It seems our esteemed PM has found a new solution to the terrorist threat. Invite the terrorists into government.

Forget bollards, BOLLOCKS.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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rolyn
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# 16840

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
The fuckers tried to hire a truck and had petrol bombs and blow torches.

Bollards.

Background checks on all truck, van and car hires. I know. Bollards. They'll hijack including coaches. Bollards. Terrorist alert on all truck thefts and BOLLARDS.

Mobile armed police on highest foot traffic intersections.

Apart from hyper vigilance, and the belief that fully armed security personnel will arrive at an incident in the shortest possible time, there isn't much the public can do apart from avoiding crowds, (which is neither practical nor desirable for most).

There is though quite a lot that can be done behind the scenes in terms of prevention, and given that several of these characters are already on watch lists the calls will grow louder for them to be intercepted before they carry their deadly acts.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Wesley J

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The Grauniad has an article on 'how to detect potential terrorists'. While there is no perfect and one-fits-all answer, there appear to be some clues:

quote:
Research tells us that more than 70% of Islamic militants who operate alone tell someone of their plans. The first line of defence against Islamic militancy is not our crash barriers or covert operations, nor armed cops or MI5, it is a potential terrorist’s brother, mother, partner or friend.
So again, it seems that everyone's vigilance, calm and common sense are what is being asked for.

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
It seems our esteemed PM has found a new solution to the terrorist threat. Invite the terrorists into government.

Forget bollards, BOLLOCKS.

Ohhhh Sinn Fein could have a seat at the table if it wanted. The Taliban in Afghanistan, IS in Syria can all be brought in from the cold if we persist whilst keeping our very powder dry.

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Love wins

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Alan Cresswell

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And, the litany of terrorist attacks in London continues. Though even if the number of casualties had been larger I doubt there will be as much news coverage of this attack compared to the Westminster and London Bridge attacks. Or, as vocal calls for bollards outside places of worship.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Doublethink.
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# 1984

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Redirect:

So some bastard has driven a truck through a group of people outside Finsbury Park Mosque. At least the government is calling it what it is, terrorism.

Almost exactly a year to the day since Thomas Mair murdered Jo Cox.

The security services are going to have to start taking the threat of far right terrorism a lot more seriously.

The gentleman from the Muslim Council on the BBC was calling for people to be more careful of their language and for purveyors of hate speech to be challenged. He is right.

[Edited to remove name of really fucking obvious example]

[ 19. June 2017, 07:01: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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mr cheesy
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Muslim worshippers at Finsbury Park mosque appear to have been attacked in a terrorist incident. At least one is dead, run over by a van.

I suppose it is symptomatic of these times that this is fairly minor news compared to other shit that's going on at the moment; however it seems fairly stark that the news/events seem to be conspiring to show that British Muslim Lives Don't Matter.

Van drives into crowd in central London causing loss off life and the guy is killed immediately by a policeman. Man stabs people in a market and police get there within 8 minutes.

Man runs over a crowd of Muslims and police take so long to get there that the crowd have to sit on the attacker to stop him getting away. And the news gets second headline billing.

I'm not blaming the police, by the way - presumably there were good reasons why this happened including the location, time of day etc.

But the optics are terrible.

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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Doublethink.
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# 1984

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It also depresses me that we basically need a perma-thread for terrorist attacks.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Doublethink.
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# 1984

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I suspect the police took longer to get there because it wasn't right next to parliament or another heavily guarded location.

The account the BBC give¹ suggests to me an appropriate response from the emergency services and the government. Also, the BBC are running this as their main headline, with a live update thread and regular briefings throughout their morning coverage.

---

¹ BBC News

[ 19. June 2017, 07:14: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Martin60
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# 368

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[Votive]

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Love wins

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