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Source: (consider it) Thread: Not again
mr cheesy
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# 3330

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I've got no reason to think that the police response wasn't appropriate, I'm really talking about the optics. And the optics are that if you happen to be poor, black and/or Muslim when terrible things happen you don't really matter.

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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mr cheesy
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Meanwhile, of course, we'll be expecting Justin Welby to disown the (likely) white extremist and apologise for him. Pretty sure that's not going to happen.

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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Golden Key
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I'm so sorry this happened.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Imaginary Friend

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# 186

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Please, can't everybody just stop fucking killing other people?

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Bishops Finger
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It's not clear whether the chap who died was actually killed by the van driver - it seems he had collapsed, was being given first aid, but subsequently died.

It may also be that the van driver is mentally ill, operating on his own, though that makes the incident no less of a 'terrorist attack'.

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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Gamaliel
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Apparently, police were close to the scene and some officers were present fairly quickly. Reinforcements arrived within about 5 minutes or so. Yes, the crowd overpowered the alleged attacker and handed him over to the policrn. The police have praised them for their 'restraint under the circumstances.'

This is a live investigation so I imagine the usual caveats apply.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Meanwhile, of course, we'll be expecting Justin Welby to disown the (likely) white extremist and apologise for him. Pretty sure that's not going to happen.

From the Archbishop:
quote:
The freedom to worship without fear is a right we cherish as a nation and was won at great human cost over many years.

The appalling attack on Muslims in Finsbury Park is an attack on us all and on the culture and values of our country.

At a time when we are all grieving the loss of so many precious people in London and Manchester, this brutal attack can only compound the trauma. Violence only begets more violence - it serves only the interests of those who would terrorise others.

This wanton and cruel act can produce no good and cannot be justified or excused. In exactly the same way as previous recent attacks it is a crime against God and against humanity.

[Votive]

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Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

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mr cheesy
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Not remotely an apology.

Fair play to the ABoC, but Christian leaders are never expected to immediately disown and condemn terrorists in the way that Muslim leaders are.

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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Jengie jon

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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:

It may also be that the van driver is mentally ill, operating on his own, though that makes the incident no less of a 'terrorist attack'.

IJ

I do not subscribe to the view that in the medical sense the people behind Manchester Arena and London Bridge were mentally ill. I, therefore, do not subscribe to the view that the individual behind the Finsbury Park attack was mentally ill. To label them as having mental health problems stigmatises people with real mental health problems.

I would have thought you knew better.

Jengie

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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Walking 18 miles to help Refugees get an education.

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Bishops Finger
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WTF?

I didn't say the van driver has mental health problems, I only suggested that he might , and that that might go some way to explaining what he did, if he turns out to be a 'lone wolf'. At present we just don't know his motives, state of mind, or whatever.

I certainly did not suggest that 'all' terrorists are mentally ill - that is clearly not the case.

And, FYI, I have suffered mental health issues myself in the past.

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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la vie en rouge
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And now someone has driven a car into a police van two minutes round the corner from the office...

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Rent my holiday home in the South of France

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Bishops Finger
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....which the police appear to have dealt with very quickly:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40332532

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Not remotely an apology.

Am I being dumb, but what does the ABoC need to apologise for?

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Citizen of the world.

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Matt Black

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Meanwhile, of course, we'll be expecting Justin Welby to disown the (likely) white extremist and apologise for him. Pretty sure that's not going to happen.

Do we know the perpetrator was a Christian?

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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RooK

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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Do we know the perpetrator was a Christian?

That's rather an interesting question. The context for anybody brown-skinned is to have significant assumptions about them being muslim - as opposed to, say, Sikh, or whatever. Digging deeper into the meta - why does it even matter? He can claim whatever religion he might like; would that change 99.99% of humanity's correct repudiation of his actions?

ETA: mssr. fromage's point basically still stands.

[ 19. June 2017, 19:09: Message edited by: RooK ]

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Am I being dumb, but what does the ABoC need to apologise for?

Every time there is a terrorist incident what is in some way connected to Islam, almost every Muslim leader is expected to disown and basically apologise for it. Mosques are seen to be hotbeds of radicalism (even mosques that are totally unrelated to the extremist), programmes are set up to help them identify and deradicalise people, governments and other agencies put them under various kinds of official pressure.

But isn't it funny that when there is a white guy doing the terrorising, suddenly everyone says how awful it is, but nobody blinks when Christians question whether this guy claimed to be a Christian and there is no sense that Christian leaders are expected to talk as if these elements are parts of their religion that they're supposed to disown and apologise for.

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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Alan Cresswell

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Which still doesn't answer what he needs to apologise for.

It just says that there's pressure on others to apologise for things they don't need to apologise for. Besides which, I'm not aware of any call for muslim leaders to apologise - to condemn the actions, to root out the minority who are advocating criminal acts etc, certainly. But, apologise?

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Citizen of the world.

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mr cheesy
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I don't think he does need to apologise. I don't think Muslim leaders constantly need to apologise.

The different standards that different religious leaders are expected to meet is astounding.

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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Bishops Finger
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Some Muslim terrorists shout out the name of Allah as they set off the bomb, or whatever, leaving no doubt as to their religion.

Mr. Osborne does not appear to have shouted out 'I'm a communicant member of the Church of England, and I want to kill all Muslims', so WTF does +Justin have to do with it? If Osborne had self-identified as Christian, well, mr. cheesy might have a point.

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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Bishops Finger
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Oops - x-posted with mr. cheesy.

ISWYM. Fair comment.

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Some Muslim terrorists shout out the name of Allah as they set off the bomb, or whatever, leaving no doubt as to their religion.

Mr. Osborne does not appear to have shouted out 'I'm a communicant member of the Church of England, and I want to kill all Muslims', so WTF does +Justin have to do with it? If Osborne had self-identified as Christian, well, mr. cheesy might have a point.

IJ

At least he didn't yell out "Cry God for Harry, England, and Saint George!"

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Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

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Baptist Trainfan
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I am very shocked by this incident as, although I don't know him, this man only lives about a mile from me.

There are two interesting points here.
1. There's no Mosque in this part of Cardiff and only a few Muslims (as ever, most are in the inner city). Indeed, just a couple of weeks ago I approached by a Muslim gentleman about the possibility of hiring a room in our church for prayer. However I had to explain that, apart from any other considerations, there was no way that we could offer them exclusive use of any space.

2. Why did the man hire a van from a company 15 miles away?

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Gamaliel
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Or 'Cymru am Byth!' as he was from Cardiff ...

Or Weston Super Mare originally.

It remains to be seen whether he was linked with any racist groups etc and I feel sorry for the Pontyclun van hire firm - they are a respected and reputable company who must be horrified that someone has hired one of their vans for such a purpose. But bloody hell fire ... what was the guy thinking?

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Gamaliel
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15 miles from Pentwyn or 150 miles from London?

I can only speculate that it's simply because it's a well known van hire company in that part of South Wales.

Or perhaps he thought it'd be easier to trace him had he used a van hire company closer to where he lived.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Baptist Trainfan
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Yes, I wondered that ... but he must have given ID to hire the van, and the company's name is plastered all over it! Even Inspector Clouseau would have found it easy to track him down.
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
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The reports of his behaviour after he got out of the van suggest he was trying to provoke bystanders to kill him, if he intended to die he may not have cared about the risk of being arrested.

I am going to make a wild guess, his life was falling apart and he'd recently left his wife - probably over domestic violence issues.

I note this comment from someone who knew him, courtesy of the metro:

"He had lived on the estate for a few years. He's always been a complete cunt, but this was really surprising."

[ 20. June 2017, 07:11: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Baptist Trainfan
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According to the "Daily Mirror" (I hope I can quote this):

Shocked neighbours said he had recently been kicked out by his girlfriend — and was forced to live in a tent.

Others claim that he was ejected from the town’s Hollybush pub on Saturday night for drunkenly cursing Muslims.

A neighbour said that he had previously moved out of the address, but had been living back with his partner and children there over the “past couple of months”. The man’s partner added: “He is always arguing in the street with his missus. They usually shout and swear at each other".


How true this is we don't, of course, know.

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mr cheesy
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I wonder if he was actually drunk and that driving into a crowd of Muslims was a spur of the moment decision. It seems an incredible amount of effort to go to hiring a van and driving hours only to do limited damage outside a London mosque.

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
WTF?

I didn't say the van driver has mental health problems, I only suggested that he might , and that that might go some way to explaining what he did, if he turns out to be a 'lone wolf'. At present we just don't know his motives, state of mind, or whatever.

and the difference is?

Jengie

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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Walking 18 miles to help Refugees get an education.

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Matt Black

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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Do we know the perpetrator was a Christian?

That's rather an interesting question. The context for anybody brown-skinned is to have significant assumptions about them being muslim - as opposed to, say, Sikh, or whatever. Digging deeper into the meta - why does it even matter? He can claim whatever religion he might like; would that change 99.99% of humanity's correct repudiation of his actions?

ETA: mssr. fromage's point basically still stands.

No, it doesn't change the need for all humanity to deplore his action. I was just wondering why Justin Welby was being particularly singled out to bear that burden - unless it's in the context of him being a civic (through being de facto head of the Established Church) as opposed to being a religious leader; as others have pointed out, it's not as if the perp shouted "I subscribe to the 39 Articles, the Lambeth Quadrilateral and Book of Common Prayer!"

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Callan
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I wonder if he was actually drunk and that driving into a crowd of Muslims was a spur of the moment decision. It seems an incredible amount of effort to go to hiring a van and driving hours only to do limited damage outside a London mosque.

He's clearly the white nationalist version of the half-wits who tried to damage an airport and only succeeded in setting light to themselves.

I'm guessing he went after the Mosque at Finsbury Park because he'd heard of it on the telly.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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