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Source: (consider it) Thread: Jamat, you self-righteous fuckwit
Golden Key
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Thx, mt.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17262 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Wow.

Jamat, do you know how snooty that post mt quoted sounds?
[Eek!]


His nose is pointed back so far he'd drown in a light rain

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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mousethief

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Np, GK.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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Bless 'im, he thinks he's the voice in the wilderness. He probably believes that we're in even deeper shit now God has sent him to warn us of our apostasy. I could certainly put myself in his shoes and make up a Biblically consistent narrative to that effect.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Ricardus
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The think we have to remember is that on Jamat's worldview it is not possible for any of us to be arguing in good faith.

As soon as you acknowledge that the truth of fundamentalist Christianity isn't self-evident, that people can come to a different conclusion in good faith and after evaluating the evidence to the best of their ability - then you have to face the question So why does God condemn them anyway?

The fundamentalist answer seems to be that we all do know on some level that fundamentalist Christianity is true, but have chosen, as an act of will, to reject it.

Anyone who says they reject it because of the problem of evil or discrepancies in the genealogies of Jesus or whatever - is lying. Maybe to themselves as much as to anyone else, but still lying.

There is no point in him trying to persuade us through reason or logic because our rejection of his worldview is based on sin, not reason. All he can do is rebuke us for our sin and hope that our repentance brings acknowledgement that he is right.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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quetzalcoatl
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I don't know whether that is a correct summary of Jamat's views, but it sounds rather like presuppositionalism, with which I've had some awkward encounters. It's not difficult to apparently invalidate someone else's argument, by saying that their use of reason is itself suspect. But I say 'apparently', since that argument makes everything collapse, doesn't it?

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no path

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lilBuddha
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It really doesn't help that he is an arse on top of all that.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
It really doesn't help that he is an arse on top of all that.

Guilty, no doubt.

There are lots of assumptions in these last posts, not least of which are the stereotypes of literalism and fundamentalism. But no one can be simply summed up in these terms.

Many here state they began their spiritual journies with iron clad categories that they have now broken free from. They may judge other people as still unevolved from where they were.

However, what if something has been rediscovered ?

If one is a seeker after truth, can one put restrictions and assumptions as foundations of the search?
EG dismissiveness..the Bible is internally inconsistent..

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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The internal inconsistency of the Bible is not an assumption. It is an observation.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
The internal inconsistency of the Bible is not an assumption. It is an observation.

Never understood why this isn't glaring obvious to everyone.
Variations in how to reconcile this, I understand. But not missing the need to do so.
I can only suppose the Fundamentalist Shuffle a more enjoyable dance than it appears.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Gamaliel
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Here's a question ...

Why DOES the Bible have to be internally consistent?

How does it make it any less the Bible if it isn't?

Why should we expect it to be internally consistent? Because of divine inspiration?

If something is divinely inspired then does it have to be internally consistent at every conceivable point otherwise its divine inspiration can be called into question?

How does that work?

The Bible isn't the Quran or the Book of Mormon. It wasn't 'dictated'. It didn't drop from the sky ready formed.

I can see what Jamat is getting at when he accuses folk here of acting as if they have 'evolved' to a higher plane or level of understanding - but I'm not sure that's what's going on here.

It's more a case of Jamat's overly rigid and inflexibly literalist approach fitting the stereotype to a tee.

Or am I missing something?

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Here's a question ...

Why DOES the Bible have to be internally consistent?

How does it make it any less the Bible if it isn't?

Why should we expect it to be internally consistent? Because of divine inspiration?

If something is divinely inspired then does it have to be internally consistent at every conceivable point otherwise its divine inspiration can be called into question?

How does that work?

The Bible isn't the Quran or the Book of Mormon. It wasn't 'dictated'. It didn't drop from the sky ready formed.

I can see what Jamat is getting at when he accuses folk here of acting as if they have 'evolved' to a higher plane or level of understanding - but I'm not sure that's what's going on here.

It's more a case of Jamat's overly rigid and inflexibly literalist approach fitting the stereotype to a tee.

Or am I missing something?

As this is a tangent away from what a FW I am, I will reply on the inerrancy thread in DH.
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lilBuddha
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And bets that it will end up back here?

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Caissa
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How could one expect books written over thousands of years to be internally consistent?
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Ohher
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Easy. Books one supposes to be directly and personally composed by a changeless, immortal, supernatural being which lives both inside and outside of time will, of necessity (due to its author's changelessness) be internally consistent.

That internal consistency in turn points to the book's Truth and also demonstrates the existence of the changeless, immortal, supernatural author.

The completeness and perfection of this logical circle only adds to its charms for those enamored of it; hence, the fundamentally anti-intellectual nature of this worldview: logic is a tool of Satan.

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Formerly Foolhearty. Back after somewhat less than 40 years in the wilderness.

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lilBuddha
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Logic isn't the tool of the devil. Misusing it is.
The logic described only works if one hasn't read the Bible.
As soon as one does, the logic fails, so maintaining the fiction that the Bible is internally consistent and accessible to plain reading requires one to eschew logic.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Logic isn't the tool of the devil. Misusing it is.
The logic described only works if one hasn't read the Bible.
As soon as one does, the logic fails, so maintaining the fiction that the Bible is internally consistent and accessible to plain reading requires one to eschew logic.

I take it your sarcasm meter is in the shop? I'm pretty sure what you just said was Ohher's point. [Biased]

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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lilBuddha
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looks round back of meter...
follows cord to wall...
[Roll Eyes]
not plugged in!


--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Gamaliel
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I've followed Jamat to Dead Horses and now I'm back here in the infernal regions.

No doubt he'll be here soon.

For the record, I don't regard him as a FW, just a very naughty boy ...

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
I'm pretty sure what you just said was Ohher's point. [Biased]

It was a pretty darned good paraphrase, in fact.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Ohher
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I've rarely run across Jamat on these boards, but I have RL experience with folks who subscribe to the Bible's 'internal consistency' as well as its inerrancy and its divine authorship.

An elderly member of my former church (and yes, she was waaay out-of-step with most of the rest of that congregation) joined a small group I was part of. She apparently took me on as a project (or did I take her on as one?). It took several months, but she eventually came straight out and told me (after basically disrupting and ending the group) that she had zero interest in the group's original purpose, and that she joined only in order to "convert" me.

Over the course of that time she told lies, arranged fake emergencies for me to "help" her out of, and engaged in assorted other shenanigans. When confronted about these antics, she calmly explained that none of this mattered; any and all means fair or foul which might result in my salvation -- that is, in my being converted to her understanding of Christianity -- were justified provided it saved my soul.

Again, I don't know Jamat, but my RL experience with this woman and a couple of others of similar views have taught me simply to steer clear. FWIW.

--------------------
Formerly Foolhearty. Back after somewhat less than 40 years in the wilderness.

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lilBuddha
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Jamat doesn't give any indications that he gives a shit about the souls of anyone here. If he does, his is the most inept application in history.
Whilst I think your church-mate misguided, at least she potentially meant well.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Jamat doesn't give any indications that he gives a shit about the souls of anyone here. If he does, his is the most inept application in history.
Whilst I think your church-mate misguided, at least she potentially meant well.

The Epistle to the Romans has a verse along the lines of people having no excuse because what can be known about God is obvious from Creation.

The literal interpretation of this is clearly bunkum in the same sense as "grass is purple" would be. However, some fundamentalists interpret it to mean that actually everyone knows deep down that God is real and that Christian Fundamentalism is basically true, so anyone not believing in it once it's explained to them is either not of the elect (if you're a Calvinist) or choosing not to because they don't want to surrender their sovereignty to God (if you're an Arminian)

This explains the approach. Keep hitting people with The Truth until they have to admit you were right and are saved. Hallelujah!

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Jamat doesn't give any indications that he gives a shit about the souls of anyone here. If he does, his is the most inept application in history.
Whilst I think your church-mate misguided, at least she potentially meant well.

The Epistle to the Romans has a verse along the lines of people having no excuse because what can be known about God is obvious from Creation.

The literal interpretation of this is clearly bunkum in the same sense as "grass is purple" would be.

That verse, Romans 1:20 actually needs no interpretation as it is a simple statement. It is really the same as Ps 19:1 the heavens show forth God's glory. However, the heavens show forth the glory of the Big Bang doesn't really have the same poetry does it? BTW, the grass is purple to the bloke with purple glasses Karl, it is only the Holy Spirit,though, that can get into our hearts.

@Lil Buddha: I can assure you I do GAS but I am not sure what indications would convince you.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
That verse, Romans 1:20 actually needs no interpretation as it is a simple statement.

The Bible. You're doing it wrong.

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Improbable Botany

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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If that verse were a simple statement, then it would be simply wrong. Incorrect. False. Were it true, there'd be no atheists. And there'd even less be people like me who really, really want to believe in God but find it hard to do so. We'd have all the evidence we needed, wouldn't we?

And I can't believe you're still peddling that utterly absurd false dichotomy between God and Big Bang. Are you really that stupid?

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Jamat doesn't give any indications that he gives a shit about the souls of anyone here. If he does, his is the most inept application in history.
Whilst I think your church-mate misguided, at least she potentially meant well.

The Epistle to the Romans has a verse along the lines of people having no excuse because what can be known about God is obvious from Creation.

The literal interpretation of this is clearly bunkum in the same sense as "grass is purple" would be.

That verse, Romans 1:20 actually needs no interpretation as it is a simple statement.
It may be a simple statement but like every other passage needs to be interpreted in the context of scripture as a whole.

It's the Word of God that is infallible, not the words.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Ohher
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Is "interpretation" even avoidable? I'd say not. No matter who we are or what we believe, we read through the filters of our experience, our values, our vocabularies, our worldviews, etc. A "straightforward" sentence can mean quite different things to different readers. Try discussing a bit of text with a class-full of college freshmen. We may all be looking at the same passage, but we are all reading it differently. And the reading into passages that goes on would make the hair stand up on the back of your neck . . .

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Formerly Foolhearty. Back after somewhat less than 40 years in the wilderness.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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quote:
Originally posted by Ohher:
Try discussing a bit of text with a class-full of college freshmen. We may all be looking at the same passage, but we are all reading it differently. And the reading into passages that goes on would make the hair stand up on the back of your neck . . .

Well, quite.

--------------------
Improbable Botany

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lilBuddha
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I quite like the art version of that.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Jamat doesn't give any indications that he gives a shit about the souls of anyone here. If he does, his is the most inept application in history.
Whilst I think your church-mate misguided, at least she potentially meant well.

The Epistle to the Romans has a verse along the lines of people having no excuse because what can be known about God is obvious from Creation.

The literal interpretation of this is clearly bunkum in the same sense as "grass is purple" would be.

That verse, Romans 1:20 actually needs no interpretation as it is a simple statement.
It may be a simple statement but like every other passage needs to be interpreted in the context of scripture as a whole.

It's the Word of God that is infallible, not the words.

That last statement works for me but re Ro1:20 if as KarlLB says it is a simple statement that taken at face value is obviously wrong. It says, in paraphrase:

Since the beginning of the world, God has been evident in the things that are created and men have been able to acknowledge that and are responsible for doing so.


So, unpacking that, how can it be 'interpreted in any other way than stating simply:

The world was created
It had a beginning
Humanity can see this
This knowledge leads to the acknowledgement of the God who created ir.
Man has no excuse if he refuses this knowledge
Man will be held responsible for this knowledge.

You CAN of course reject these statements as palpably false as Karl LB has but what are your grounds for doing so?


quote:
Karl LB : Are you really that stupid
Apparently so Karl; I wouldn't want to disappoint you. Now here's a question for you. If you want to believe but find it difficult what are you prepared to put on the table? Or put another way, is anything up for grabs in your world? It is just that IME God doesn't respect my non negotiables.
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mousethief

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Whose paraphrase is that? What are their theological biases? If there is no plain reading, there sure as heck isn't any such thing as a plain paraphrase. You are begging the question.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Whose paraphrase is that? What are their theological biases? If there is no plain reading, there sure as heck isn't any such thing as a plain paraphrase. You are begging the question.

Its mine. If you have a problem with it,get English lessons.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Ohher
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Moreover, one "plain reading" will differ from another depending on the translation used. The KJV version (which many American Christians privilege above all others) gives us this:

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

The NIV offers this:

"For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

So if a rationally-inclined secular humanist comes across this passage, some troublesome questions arise:

How are we "seeing" what is plainly stated in the passage to be invisible? We're not "seeing" that at all; we're looking at the physical environment and interpreting that. We're looking around, finding ourselves awed and humbled by what is beyond our own power and comprehension, and explaining to ourselves how it must have come into being.

And that last step is an assumption: Goddidit. There are other explanations available; they just don't appear in this little passage.

Beyond that, one of these passages ends with a period, separating it from the next. The other indicates the passage is semantically linked to what follows. Should we keep reading or not?

Not all that straightforward, then.

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Formerly Foolhearty. Back after somewhat less than 40 years in the wilderness.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Whose paraphrase is that? What are their theological biases? If there is no plain reading, there sure as heck isn't any such thing as a plain paraphrase. You are begging the question.

Its mine. If you have a problem with it,get English lessons.
Perhaps he might; right after you get lessons in reason, logic and rational thinking.

[ 12. July 2017, 21:10: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Jamat
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quote:
So if a rationally-inclined secular humanist comes across this passage, some troublesome questions arise
Look, no one is saying that it does not have possible connotations this way or that. I do not deny the necessity for interpretation of Biblical texts. Of course we have lenses and need to recognise that we have them. This theoretical secular humanist will hopefully be challenged in his preconceptions when he reads a statement like that. What he will not be able to do with integrity is say it does not mean what it says. He will not be able to hide behind the word 'interpretation' as if it was some kind of eraser of meaning as an excuse for ignoring it.

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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Whose paraphrase is that? What are their theological biases? If there is no plain reading, there sure as heck isn't any such thing as a plain paraphrase. You are begging the question.

Its mine. If you have a problem with it,get English lessons.
Saying "My paraphrase agrees with my interpretation" is a bit of a tautology, isn't it? You can't prove your interpretation is right by using your paraphrase as proof of what the text means. That's circular reasoning.

Also I thought you were going to stop being nasty to people? I was very straightforward and polite and don't deserve this swipe.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Whose paraphrase is that? What are their theological biases? If there is no plain reading, there sure as heck isn't any such thing as a plain paraphrase. You are begging the question.

Its mine. If you have a problem with it,get English lessons.
Perhaps he might; right after you get lessons in reason, logic and rational thinking.
Reason, logic and rational thinking did not actually work that well for Rousseau and Voltaire if you can remember that far back. It led to.. "Kill the infamous thing!"
Spiritual truth is not discerned with natural tools.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Whose paraphrase is that? What are their theological biases? If there is no plain reading, there sure as heck isn't any such thing as a plain paraphrase. You are begging the question.

Its mine. If you have a problem with it,get English lessons.
Saying "My paraphrase agrees with my interpretation" is a bit of a tautology, isn't it? You can't prove your interpretation is right by using your paraphrase as proof of what the text means. That's circular reasoning.

Also I thought you were going to stop being nasty to people? I was very straightforward and polite and don't deserve this swipe.

You are simply tedious. OK, I summarised in my own words what the verse said. I did it for simplicity's sake. Do you really have to query every tiny wee linguistic aberration? Is it helpful or just being an arse? You know perfectly well what was said and what was meant. I am not meaning to be rude just struggling to be patient with having my intelligence questioned because I see things differently to you.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Gamaliel
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Sure, but that's not an excuse for obscurantism, special pleading and circular arguments ...

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Ohher
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:

Spiritual truth is not discerned with natural tools.

Well, that kind of does the author (neither Voltaire nor Rousseau) of Romans 1:20 in, doesn't it? Isn't he saying, "Look around you! Isn't it obvious this was all created by God, just like you yourselves?" Spiritual truth, meet natural tools.

[ 12. July 2017, 21:38: Message edited by: Ohher ]

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Formerly Foolhearty. Back after somewhat less than 40 years in the wilderness.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Ohher:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:

Spiritual truth is not discerned with natural tools.

Well, that kind of does the author (neither Voltaire nor Rousseau) of Romans 1:20 in, doesn't it? Isn't he saying, "Look around you! Isn't it obvious this was all created by God, just like you yourselves?" Spiritual truth, meet natural tools.
Jamat's POV is "isn't it obvious?" and he has the balls to then say what he did. He spins faster than a politician losing votes.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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mousethief

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I'm not talking about intelligence. I'm talking about your argument. It's circular. I suppose it's tedious for me to point out that your argument is circular when you have no intention of making a good argument.

But if you intend to debate things with people, making fun of logic and reasoning isn't the way to get them to take you seriously. You are in fact attempting to use logic and reasoning. Insulting them is kind of ungrateful. If you're going to argue and debate, you're going to use logic and reasoning. And if you're going to use logic and reasoning, you are placing your arguments on the table for weighing against common logical fallacies. If you make a fallacious argument, surely making fun of Rousseau doesn't make it sound.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I'm not talking about intelligence.

Of course not, you are talking about Jamat.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by Ohher:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:

Spiritual truth is not discerned with natural tools.

Well, that kind of does the author (neither Voltaire nor Rousseau) of Romans 1:20 in, doesn't it? Isn't he saying, "Look around you! Isn't it obvious this was all created by God, just like you yourselves?" Spiritual truth, meet natural tools.
Do we really have to define the word natural then..sigh. Yes it can mean empirical pragmatic etc. Scripture says KJV that the 'natural man does not comprehend the things of God as they are foolishness to him' they are 'spiritually' discerned. Paul juxtaposes natural and spiritual suggesting that learning about God requires a different approach than that used to acquire knowledge in the realm of the natural universe. That is the way I was using it.
As to your point that Paul points to the natural world as a proof of creation, That is true of course but here he is merely saying that existence of a created world implies a creator rather than exploring any theological point about how that creator might be understood.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
I am not meaning to be rude just struggling to be patient with having my intelligence questioned because I see things differently to you.

This from the guy who tediously but persistently questions the faith and salvation of those who see things differently from him.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I'm not talking about intelligence. I'm talking about your argument. It's circular. I suppose it's tedious for me to point out that your argument is circular when you have no intention of making a good argument.

But if you intend to debate things with people, making fun of logic and reasoning isn't the way to get them to take you seriously. You are in fact attempting to use logic and reasoning. Insulting them is kind of ungrateful. If you're going to argue and debate, you're going to use logic and reasoning. And if you're going to use logic and reasoning, you are placing your arguments on the table for weighing against common logical fallacies. If you make a fallacious argument, surely making fun of Rousseau doesn't make it sound.

Not making fun of him. His life and the entire enlightenment prove that you can't sort human problems as the illuminati of that time tried to..with logic and reason.

My circularity I take it is because I made a paraphrase of a verse and then unpacked my own paraphrase. Given that my lens made the paraphrase, the unpacking led back to it. OK I could say you and pretty well everyone else would do that too Every time you start with a premise, it is your premise,seen your way. If you extrapolate from this then you can't learn anything but the inference from your premise. You cannot get past your own thinking. There is no escape for you from the world of circularity. However this is only true when you are not allowing information in, when the system is closed. I think I would claim that the verse in question is not mine though I am seeing it with my lens. As this is the case, what I paraphrased is outside data. I am not then arguing in a circle.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
I am not meaning to be rude just struggling to be patient with having my intelligence questioned because I see things differently to you.

This from the guy who tediously but persistently questions the faith and salvation of those who see things differently from him.
Nick, I question my own salvation. I was Catholic. There is no assurance of salvation. You don't know which side of the ledger you're on till you die. You better be careful of everyone starts agreeing with you. That is a bad sign.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
You better be careful of everyone starts agreeing with you. That is a bad sign.

Nice piece of pseudo wisdom there.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Ohher
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Do we really have to define the word natural then..sigh.

I doubt "we" either need to or can define anything; speaking only for myself, English is my native language and I'm acquainted with the meaning of "natural" in the plain-speaking, plain-reading Anglophone world you were originally referring to -- the "straightforward" meaning.

--------------------
Formerly Foolhearty. Back after somewhat less than 40 years in the wilderness.

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