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Source: (consider it) Thread: GeeD
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
mt--

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Rather we say that the Change in the Elements is "a mystery."

Alchemy. (Changed elements.) [Smile] [Angel]
Go to jail. Go directly to jail. Do not pass GO. Do not collect $200.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

Posts: 63203 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
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# 1468

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LOL. What, God can't be an alchemist?

I am at least half serious. Alchemy is about changing elements from one state of being into another. And it's got a spiritual component. Whatever one thinks of alchemy, maybe they got the idea of transmutation right. Or not.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18178 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
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# 13815

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Mousethief, I got that use of Grace from both Ian Climacus and The Scrumpmeister in years gone by. The major point I was making was that I find Aquinas far too dry and academic an explanation for the Real Presence.

Golden Key, probably sounds like it to some, but that's a real mis-reading; what I'm saying is rather more subtle than that.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
mr cheesy, if the first time you bring up drug abuse or sex is when your child gets caught, you have already failed to instill your values* and we're into mode 2, harm reduction.

_______
*or rather you have instilled your values, but your values are "it doesn't matter." If it mattered you would have already talked with them about it.

For sure, I don't disagree with that. I was just trying to say that one can believe in both modes. Both that there is something to be said for good parenting and responsible adult led harm reduction when discussing these issues.

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arse

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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Doc Tor--

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
If you want to consider legal aspects, then, sure, let's say the kid isn't quite old enough to legally operate a motorcycle. But the kid won't stop. The parents can't stop the kid. So a secondary question: should parents give the kid a helmet in *this* situation?

The parents buy a sturdy lock, fix it to the bike's rear wheel.

Problem, and terrible analogy, solved.

Kid breaks/picks lock (and oooo, new skill!), and rides off to the nearest rave--without a helmet.

For a simple comparison with giving away free condoms for teens who may be in need, an analogy of motorcycle and helmet seems apt.

Doc Tor’s point was that this analogy doesn’t work and I agree with him.

FWIW if I had forbidden an underage kid from illegally riding a motorbike and they did it anyway, without a helmet to boot, I would not buy a helmet. I would call the police. (Yes I do mean that. I would report my own child to the police.)

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I was just trying to say that one can believe in both modes. Both that there is something to be said for good parenting and responsible adult led harm reduction when discussing these issues.

Okay well that's not what I see in what you wrote, but I certainly agree with it.

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
LOL. What, God can't be an alchemist?

I am at least half serious. Alchemy is about changing elements from one state of being into another. And it's got a spiritual component. Whatever one thinks of alchemy, maybe they got the idea of transmutation right. Or not.

The problem is you are equivocating on the word "element." Bread is not an element in the chemical sense of the word. It is a compound. Alchemists sought to transmutate (transmute?) chemical elements, namely lead into gold. They did not seek to transmute bread into flesh, let alone in such a way that the bread remained bread while simultaneously becoming flesh.

What alchemists wanted, and what happens in the paraclesis, are both change, but not at all the same kind of change. You might as well say that alchemists were doing (rather attempting) the same thing as a man who changes his clothes.

TL/DR: I think you have your hands on a category error. Much as I love you, etc.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Okay well that's not what I see in what you wrote, but I certainly agree with it.

My fault no doubt. It just irritates me when the debate seems to turn into a narrow one of "good parenting" vs "condoms" (for example), when in reality I think most people think we need both.

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arse

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RooK

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Indeed. In much the same way that we teach kids to cover their mouths when they sneeze instead of not to sneeze. Because decision-making is not something humans get good at until their frontal lobe develops - looooong after puberty.
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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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It is a failure to view a child as merely an ignorant adult; that merely adding information is necessary. Children use different, more primitive, parts of their brains to make decisions. It isn't that they do not understand or agree with adult guidance, but that their decisions flow through paths that might disregard it.

ETA: It isn't something that switched off at 16, 18 or 21. It is a process.

[ 25. July 2017, 15:22: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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You know, we really shouldn't have seatbelts in cars. It only encourages people to drive faster and risk accidents.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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A better analogy might be to deny medical treatment to anyone who was speeding or otherwise not obeying the rules.
"You were speeding? Please try not to bleed too heavily on your way out of the A&E. Costs law abiding citizens to clean that, you know." "Apologies, we cannot rebuild your face, you looked away from the road at the wrong time."

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
It isn't something that switched off at 16, 18 or 21. It is a process.

To be clear, the physical development of the brain's frontal lobe not completing until humans are in their 20's is well-understood neurobiology, as is it's primary functions involving decision making.
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Golden Key
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# 1468

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{Finishing up tangent.}

mt--

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
LOL. What, God can't be an alchemist?

I am at least half serious. Alchemy is about changing elements from one state of being into another. And it's got a spiritual component. Whatever one thinks of alchemy, maybe they got the idea of transmutation right. Or not.

The problem is you are equivocating on the word "element." Bread is not an element in the chemical sense of the word. It is a compound. Alchemists sought to transmutate (transmute?) chemical elements, namely lead into gold. They did not seek to transmute bread into flesh, let alone in such a way that the bread remained bread while simultaneously becoming flesh.

What alchemists wanted, and what happens in the paraclesis, are both change, but not at all the same kind of change. You might as well say that alchemists were doing (rather attempting) the same thing as a man who changes his clothes.

TL/DR: I think you have your hands on a category error. Much as I love you, etc.

Fair enough. FYI: Last night, I searched on "alchemy bread wine Eucharist". I skimmed some of the sites. It looks like the Eucharist was/is an inspiration. Alchemy has a spiritual dimension.

We now return you to your regular thread. [Smile]

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18178 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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Well shut my mouth then. Thank you for being a good sport about it and not ripping me a new one.

--------------------
“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

Posts: 63203 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

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Golden Key is one of the nicest people to often visit Hell. [Overused]

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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{curtsey}

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18178 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged



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