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Source: (consider it) Thread: SSM by postal vote
Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
My advice: stop digging.

You are doubling down, then? Still think you are the victim?
If you were half the person you [b]think[/i] you are, you'd be too ashamed too leave the house after that victim bullshit.

ETA: Even Jesus thinks you are a tool.

Yeah, but Jesus died for the tools. He likes us better, and we're more fun on a night out.

The 'righteous'... well, not so much. After he tried to point out how unnecessary was that poker they kept up their arses, it was all downhill after that.


[Disappointed]

--------------------
Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Sorry, I wasn't clear there, I so should not post from a phone travelling. I did not mean to imply that I change my views, because I don't,

This sounds more in keeping with your character, as I understand it. Not that you need my approval, of course. So apologies for inferring otherwise.
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Yeah, but Jesus died for the tools.

I thought he died for everyone, so yeah.
quote:

He likes us better, and we're more fun on a night out.

Really?
quote:

The 'righteous'... well, not so much. After he tried to point out how unnecessary was that poker they kept up their arses, it was all downhill after that.

Seems otherwise to me. I think you mean self-righteous.
Which I hope I am not but it is not something easily judged by oneself.
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Disingenuous

Yeah, this one doesn't fit. I mean, there are a lot of negatives one could accurately, or at least reasonably, attribute to me. But not so much this one.
quote:

and deeply, deeply tiresome.

Not even going to argue this because, yeah, at least sometimes.
quote:

I think she views herself as a fighter of privilege wherever she finds it.

Nope. I argue here for what I think is right. Privilege can blind one to inequities, so it does enter into the discussion.
quote:

Trouble is, she assumes that not herself being privileged (by which she means white and male)

White and male, as categories, do confer privilege. This does not mean that no other forms of privilege exist, some of which I have.
quote:

makes her right by default at all times and in all situations.

Well, obviously I am going to argue the positions I think are correct. I've admitted here, sometimes grudgingly, being wrong. So I don't think this charge sticks.
Arrogant, pugnacious, contentious, stubborn, angry, sometimes mean...there are more, of course, appellations that fit me more accurately than I care for. Accuse me of something accurate at least.
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:

What I have suggested, and what you are singularly failing to grasp, is that the kind of bigotry you justly condemn is fuelled by people not listening to those on the other side properly, assuming they know what those on the other side think, and instead of engaging at any substantial level, lashing out against their own caricature of those on the other side.

I wish I were a good enough person to take the high road and ignore this, but I am not.
This is a pattern for you: Make an egregious statement and then attempt to cover it when confronted.
I was wrong about what you said in this instance I will admit.

I maintain, though, that I am not incorrect in assessing your character.
Does this justify replying without confirming what I thought I read? No.
Are you getting an apology because of this failure? Also no.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17100 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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lilBuddha, I say this with all sincerity...

What the Fuck is wrong with you?

Seriously, the only sensible way to read Eutychus' original comment was that it was about the accuracy of Eutychus' guess.

Let's just replay it for the sane members of the audience:

quote:
I guessed NSW would have the highest number of electorates where "no" won, but not for the right reasons
See? "My guess was correct, but my reasons for the guess were not".

But no, you had to run with this bizarre reading of "I wanted people to vote "no", but people didn't vote "no" for the right reasons".

And from then on you just decided to froth at the mouth.

This is NOT the first time you've done this. This is not the first time you've gone on an extended tirade because no-one can get you to spend 5 seconds re-reading the thing you got completely wrong to begin with. And it's exhausting trying to get you to pause, breathe, and re-read.

And then, when you finally do, your attitude becomes "oh well, my reason for my anger might have been wrong but dammit I'll find another reason to be angry so that I don't have to back down".

No. Just no. Back down, apologise, and in this one situation please Shut The Fuck Up. You created this situation. You do not get to say that you're still somehow the righteous one in this situation. You got it wrong. Own your mistake.

[ 18. November 2017, 02:02: Message edited by: orfeo ]

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

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One hateful group calling its "warriors" to arms.

https://www.pedestrian.tv/news/hateful-grubs-are-brazenly-defacing-lgbtqia-street-murals-in-inner-sydney/


(Edit: sorry, on a phone and my URL tag stuffed up; can't fix it)

[ 18. November 2017, 06:07: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]

Posts: 7578 | From: Albury, Australia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

Seriously, the only sensible way to read Eutychus' original comment was that it was about the accuracy of Eutychus' guess.

I’ve acknowledged this. Several times.

I’m not marking a claim, implicit or explicit, of being righteous. I know how bad a person I am.

He made a ridiculous claim about bigotry that set me right off.
Ok, so the mature response would have been to apologise for the misread and then take him to task for the bullshit claim.

What is wrong with me? I’m angry and I’m tired.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
He made a ridiculous claim about bigotry that set me right off.

In other words, you can dish it out, but you can't take it.

[ 18. November 2017, 13:55: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

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lilBuddha, I'm impressed. You actually chose to waste your own time 'analysing' an obviously flip, throwaway comment.

With the emphasis on the 'anal' of course.

Anyway, things to do...

--------------------
Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!

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MarsmanTJ
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# 8689

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
What is wrong with me? I’m angry and I’m tired.

Clearly that you're too arrogant to apologise when you've made a mistake. There's a good reason you're normally on my ignore list, but this thread's subject intrigues me and has quoted you so often I got curious.

[ 18. November 2017, 21:45: Message edited by: MarsmanTJ ]

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Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

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Ian - very troubling stuff. The call to arms aspect of it reminds me of the back and forth texting (before FB was the ubiquitous phenomenon it is now) that led to the Cronulla riots.

--------------------
Wronger than a drooling idiot on stupid juice - but I understand his argument.
mousethief (paraphrase)
----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
He made a ridiculous claim about bigotry that set me right off.

In other words, you can dish it out, but you can't take it.
Indeed, it does seem exactly the wrong complaint to make in context.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
He made a ridiculous claim about bigotry that set me right off.

In other words, you can dish it out, but you can't take it.
Indeed, it does seem exactly the wrong complaint to make in context.
You think jumping to a conclusion, for whatever reason, is the same as racism, etc? Because however he tried to walk it back, that is what his claim entails.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
He made a ridiculous claim about bigotry that set me right off.

In other words, you can dish it out, but you can't take it.
Indeed, it does seem exactly the wrong complaint to make in context.
You think jumping to a conclusion, for whatever reason, is the same as racism, etc? Because however he tried to walk it back, that is what his claim entails.
It doesn't matter what I think of the merits of the claim, the point is that the time to complain so vigorously about a "ridiculous claim about bigotry" is NOT shortly after you've made a ridiculous claim about bigotry yourself.

The very best position you can attain on that subject at the moment is somewhere around a draw, not a moral victory. Personally I don't really want to invest my time in deciding who made the more ridiculous claim about bigotry.

[ 19. November 2017, 04:19: Message edited by: orfeo ]

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

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Of course, one MP thinks crocodile attacks are more important.

Light relief. But a bit odd.

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Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

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[Killing me]

There is a reason "mad Katter" has entered the Oz lexicon.

--------------------
Wronger than a drooling idiot on stupid juice - but I understand his argument.
mousethief (paraphrase)
----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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orfeo,

It isn’t bigotry by definition and isn’t in normal use. You work in the law, words have meaning.
Pedantry aside, I’m done hijacking this thread.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

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Starting to think the ACL might be so out of touch they are not actually in our epoch anymore.

Lyle Shelton has been obsessed with arguing the slippery slope for years. Given his tortured logic it is probably completely appropriate for the ACL to host a conference this past weekend in which the immortal phrase "anonymous masturbator" was uttered.

That is likely paywalled for most of you, here is an excerpt:

quote:
... lucky attendees got to hear the theories of German sociologist Gabriele Kuby, who denies the existence of homosexuality.

“There is no innate same sex attraction. It is not supported by scientific evidence. There is no innate gender identity. It is not supported by scientific evidence. Most children with gender dysphoria grow out of it. It is not supported by scientific evidence that all these children need some kind of hormonal measures of sex change, which I think is simply a severe abuse of children.”

She told the audience that allowing gay people to marry was a mistake.

“The next step is that they will be given the right to procreate”, leading to the “artificial production” of children using “sperm from an anonymous masturbator”, she said. Christians were now called to battle, she said.



[ 20. November 2017, 07:27: Message edited by: Dark Knight ]

--------------------
Wronger than a drooling idiot on stupid juice - but I understand his argument.
mousethief (paraphrase)
----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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Uttering the sentence "it is not supported by scientific evidence" provides great comfort, I'm sure, who those who wish to believe there is no scientific evidence.

And yet, there is still scientific evidence.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
German sociologist Gabriele Kuby

She's sure as hell no biologist... [Ultra confused]

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

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Tukai
Shipmate
# 12960

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And in good news, the bill to allow same-sex marriage has now passed one house of the Australian parliament. Suggested amendments to allow discrimination by anti-gay florists and bakers (supposedly in the name of "protecting religious freedom") were all rejected. It goes to the other house of parliament next week, with strong hopes that it will pass there - again without amendment. If so, it then becomes law - at last!

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A government that panders to the worst instincts of its people degrades the whole country for years to come.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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The law actually WAS amended, so it's rather bemusing to see all the news reports that it wasn't.

But they were very technical amendments, designed to ensure there were no other laws that would not work correctly with the Marriage Act. Not the amendments that conservatives were looking for.

Clearly the actual amendments, which were supported by all the people supporting the Bill as a whole, were of no interest to the media because there was no fight about it.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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An e-sing-a-long is in order to celebrate:

Etta James: At Last

--------------------
Human

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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473

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I had the news turned down low, but I heard an M.P propose to his partner [Axe murder] Not often you hear really moving stuff on the news or broadcasts from Parliament where years of injustice are finally righted.

YaY [Yipee]

Huia

--------------------
Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

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Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

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Should be passing soon...

If only MPs would stop waffling and congratulating themselves in their speeches.

edit: though there were some odd ones. From those against.

[ 07. December 2017, 05:44: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]

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Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

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And we've, finally, joined the rest of the civilised world. It has passed.
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Gee D
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Beat me to it - looks as if Dutton and Katter were the only 2 voting No at the end.

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Tukai
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# 12960

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In the end there were 4 MPs who voted no.

Most of the MPs who had spent the day trying to move silly amendments abstained from the vote in the end, including those arch-bastards Dutton and Abbott. Some justified their abstention by saying that although they opposed SSM and wanted more discrimination rather than less, the electorate (including their own constituencies) had clearly voted yes in the unnecessary and expensive "survey" that they had forced upon us in order to delay the inevitable.

--------------------
A government that panders to the worst instincts of its people degrades the whole country for years to come.

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Huia
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# 3473

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Good to know that the bastards don't always win. [Yipee]

--------------------
Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

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Mr Clingford
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# 7961

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Yes, this is welcome, surprising, good news.

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Ne'er cast a clout till May be out.

If only.

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Dennis the Menace
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# 11833

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It's a pity the PM is taking all the credit for it. He would have done better if Parliament had voted for it instead of wasting money on the plebecite.

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"Till we cast our crowns before Him; Lost in wonder, love, and praise."

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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Well, colour me surprised. I thought the post vote was going to be a complete waste of time, and simply an excuse to kick SSM into the long grass.

I was wrong, and I'm glad I was wrong. Well done, you.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

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stonespring
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# 15530

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My Aussie husband and I will be landing in Sydney on Jan. 2nd. Will our marriage (we got married in the US) be legally recognized in Australia by then? I know the timeline for same sex couples in Australia to marry but I cannot find information about when same sex couples married abroad will be legally the same as opposite sex married couples in Australia.
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Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

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I'm sorry, stonespring, I don't know. Hopefully the answers to these questions will be clarified in the coming weeks.

One of the MPs who voted no was David Littleproud. This story filed last year indicates he hasn't budged an inch from his homophobic position. Sucks to be him - farmer Dave can marry any bloke that'll have him now. [Axe murder]

--------------------
Wronger than a drooling idiot on stupid juice - but I understand his argument.
mousethief (paraphrase)
----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

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Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

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Hang on a minute - I just watched the brief video that Tukai linked to. It looks like marriages will be immediately recognised. [Yipee]

--------------------
Wronger than a drooling idiot on stupid juice - but I understand his argument.
mousethief (paraphrase)
----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

Posts: 2882 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
My Aussie husband and I will be landing in Sydney on Jan. 2nd. Will our marriage (we got married in the US) be legally recognized in Australia by then?

Yep.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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orfeo

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# 13878

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Marriage equality in Australia starts in 40 minutes.

[Big Grin]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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Sorry to see Russell Broadbent was one of the four no votes in the Reps. He has been a tireless advocate for the humane treatment of Asylum Seekers since the Tampa tragedy. I haven't fact checked myself there, but I'm pretty sure I have the right bloke.

I have been glowering and grinding my teeth at the Pollies celebrating and trying to take credit for marriage equality. On the one hand, many of the people on the Liberal side supported Howard's amendment to the Marriage Act, and on the Labor side, many were members of the Gillard Govt, and decided that being in Govt was more important than enacting marriage equality. A pox on both their houses.

Also, fuck them all while they lock up people who come to Australia seeking asylum out of the country. They don't have the right to celebrate anything.

Congratulations go instead to everyone else in the country who did so much to ensure that this happened, and made sure we jumped through all the hoops put in our way by the politicians over the last 20 years. I say 20 years because that's my estimate of how long Australia has been ready for this reform, and how long these bastard politicians have made us wait.

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Human

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
I say 20 years because that's my estimate of how long Australia has been ready for this reform, and how long these bastard politicians have made us wait.

Well it's a lousy estimate that flies in the face of when SSM became legal anywhere. But don't let facts get in your way.

5 minutes.

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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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How long ago did Howard change the Marriage Act?

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Human

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Crœsos
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# 238

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To the surprise of almost no one, the couple who 'threatened' to divorce each other if same-sex couples were given the same legal right to marry as they enjoyed turn out not to have meant it after all, despite a generous offer of pro bono legal assistance.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Huia
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# 3473

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Well, what an incredible surprise. Grandstanding galoots.

Are they related to the Sydney Jensens?

Brilliant move by the lawyer though. [Snigger]

Huia

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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
How long ago did Howard change the Marriage Act?

Also a lot less than 20 years. Google is your friend.

And the Parliament changed it. "Howard" did not. Right now I'm pretty annoyed at how few people actually understand the process by which legislation would be made, so it'd be great if you recognised that both major parties voted together to ensure that same-sex couples couldn't get married.

[ 08. December 2017, 22:09: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
To the surprise of almost no one, the couple who 'threatened' to divorce each other if same-sex couples were given the same legal right to marry as they enjoyed turn out not to have meant it after all, despite a generous offer of pro bono legal assistance.

They were complete idiots because they had no insight into what the law actually said (already) about recognition of relationships.

Even if they went through the rigmarole of separating for a year, getting divorced, then got back together, they would still be a couple in the eyes of the government once they got back together whether they like or not. De facto couples are treated almost exactly the same as married couples.

And it's not just a question of whatever petulant little stance they want to take, the government has its own interest in knowing who is in a relationship because it affects a whole lot of financial interactions, including welfare payments and taxation.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
How long ago did Howard change the Marriage Act?

Also a lot less than 20 years. Google is your friend.

And the Parliament changed it. "Howard" did not. Right now I'm pretty annoyed at how few people actually understand the process by which legislation would be made, so it'd be great if you recognised that both major parties voted together to ensure that same-sex couples couldn't get married.

It was done in 2004, thirteen years ago. According to
this article it was done to stymie an application to the Family Court to recognise a same sex marriage in Canada. I reckon the action in the Family Court precipitated the amendment, but it is a good indication that there had been agitation for same sex marriage for some years prior. Howard's action was a finger-in-the-dyke job and I reckon my estimate of 20 years was not too far off.

I'm happy to accept your assertion that Labor backed the 2004 legislation. I will add that to my list of grievances against them on the issue.

I don't resile from my characterisation of the amendment as Howard's. Of course the Parliament passed the thing. The Governor-General assented to it too. I am getting more and more upset that the role of the Governor-General in the making of laws is ignored. [Roll Eyes]

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
I am getting more and more upset that the role of the Governor-General in the making of laws is ignored. [Roll Eyes]

Listen, mate, I'm a legislative drafter. What's your excuse?

Furthermore, I had the privilege of seeing the Governor-General's signature on the marriage legislation yesterday.

If I'm annoyed with you, it's because you simultaneously declare your knowledge of how this has all gone down while betraying your severe ignorance. Yes, I know when the Marriage Act was amended. Yes, I know it was in reaction to things happening in Canada.

No, it still does not make the SLIGHTEST sense to suggest that people were agitating 20 years ago for a reform that wasn't legally necessary until 13 years ago and which would have been unprecedented anywhere in the world until 16 years ago. You've answered it yourself, you just can't see it. The amendment to exclude SSM occurred at the time it first looked like a possibility that SSM would happen.

But thanks for all your vague thought bubbles and then handing in your homework assignment.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Gee D
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# 13815

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If it's not a breach of any duty of silence, can you say if Turnbull was in attendance at the ExCo?

[ 09. December 2017, 07:25: Message edited by: Gee D ]

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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So, Big O, are you saying that people wouldn't have advocated for same sex marriage 20 years ago because it wasn't legally necessary to advocate for it then? If it wasn't legally necessary, why weren't same sex couples marrying back in 1997?

I'm sorry if my ignorance offends you. It must be difficult living in a world in which so many inferior people just go about expressing themselves.

Please forgive me for annoying you.

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Human

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Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

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Poll numbers from 1997 supporting your contention would go a long way.
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simontoad
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# 18096

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Yeah maybe. But I reckon not many people who would have said in 1997 that they opposed same sex marriage would have voted against the party that introduced it for that reason. As it happens, Howard would never have done it.

But I am a very ignorant person. Please be gentle.

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Human

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
If it's not a breach of any duty of silence, can you say if Turnbull was in attendance at the ExCo?

It was on TV. Which is the only reason I know the answer is yes.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
I'm sorry if my ignorance offends you. It must be difficult living in a world in which so many inferior people just go about expressing themselves.

Please forgive me for annoying you.

It is indeed one of the great banes of my life.

It’d be easier to forgive you if you stopped doing it.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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