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Source: (consider it) Thread: Charlottesville
cliffdweller
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I don't know if this belongs in heaven (for prayer) or hell (for cursing) but I'll start here.

A major US city is currently under violent assault by white supremacists. Interfaith clergy are courageously standing ground in opposition-- despite being assaulted with concrete-filled cans, threatened with guns, and now a car deliberately driven into the crowd of counter-protestors.

This is, I fear, the beginning of a coup by Steve Bannon's Amerika.

[Votive]

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Doc Tor
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Well, it's not looking good. But that there are twice as many people on the street protesting against a Nazi parade than there are Nazis in the parade gives me hope.

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Forward the New Republic

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Bishops Finger
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BBC News reports that at least one person has been killed.

How long will it be, I wonder, before the 'militia' start opening fire?

[Disappointed]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Doc Tor
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It's been pointed out that if a bunch of black guys had marched down the street in full combat gear and toting AR-15s, they wouldn't have made it a single block.

That the (white) driver of the car is in custody and not the morgue is good, but it's also telling.

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Forward the New Republic

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Zappa
Ship's Wake
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If that was Mr Trump's idea of a presidential response we're fucked. The scripted bit about egregious - clearly not his word - was ordinary, then the sub text about "how great I art" were a fucking obscenity.

[Mad] [Projectile] [Help]

[ 12. August 2017, 19:55: Message edited by: Zappa ]

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Nicolemr
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oh dear God... and I don't know if that's a prayer or a curse.

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roybart
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This is another eerie page from the playbook of early Italian fascism. The black shirts take to the streets deliberately to provoke a counter demonstration by the left. The left takes the bait. Violence ensues. The central government tut-tuts a Milquetoast lament about violence on both sides.

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"The consolations of the imaginary are not imaginary consolations."
-- Roger Scruton

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Doc Tor
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The violence has been overwhelmingly from the Right. And, given that these are actual Nazis, I'm much less concerned about confronting them robustly.

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Forward the New Republic

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Schroedinger's cat

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There are not even words in hell for this.

Terrorists on the streets of America killing and injuring other Americans, and the state is doing nothing.

This is Trumps America. A terrorist nation with nuclear weapons.

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Rossweisse

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What's happening in Charlottesville is staggeringly horrible. What is happening to us?

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I'm not dead yet.

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Gamaliel
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No words.

Sadly, no surprise either.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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sabine
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This feels so overwhelming. But it's also a call to live the Sermon on the Mount.

We have to make sure the antidote to the events at Charlottesville (and all similar events) is out there.

sabibe

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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano

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Ian Climacus

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There are times I think we have hope as humans.

And then there are times like this.

I honestly don't care the Nazis were outnumbered. That brings me no hope tbh. The fact they exist, and the fact they can march in the streets with such numbers, says it all. Hate is real and still with us.

Waiting, in trepidation, at copy cat marches...

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roybart
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But isn't this part of the "Great" in " Make America Great Again"? Trump tolerated violence by his supporters during his campaign rallies. He threatens North Korea with fire and fury.

Tangentially, during a call-in show on Public Radio 2 days ago, a caller defended Trump's unprecedented bluster on North Korea. The moderator asked whether he was concerned about the possible impact on millions in So. Korea or Japan. The caller dismissed the question in 2 words: "That's hypothetical." This chilled me. The real life consequences of their words and actions means nothing to these people.

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"The consolations of the imaginary are not imaginary consolations."
-- Roger Scruton

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Ian Climacus

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The jackboots on Slate's Trumpcast's intro have never hit me so hard...I'd always thought they were a bit of overkill. Not anymore, sadly.
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Lothlorien
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The scene of the marchers with those dreadful flags was like a kick in the stomach to me. They hold a strange definition of patriotism.

Seeing the clergy standing in line.some in vestments, all linking arms with the person next to them brought me to tears.

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Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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There's a "co-exist" idea suggested by all of this. Which is ridiculous, tragic and infuriating. My grandmother told me that there was no "co-exist" in the Tiergarten in Berlin in 1936. There is never a place for such beasts. There are limits to free speech. There are limits to tolerance, and tolerating the intolerant mustn't be tolerated.
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Golden Key
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[Votive]

Wow. I'd heard headlines about this on the radio, but didn't realize it was on this scale.

When I searched for news, one of the hits was a Nazi site, which declared "Jews Organizing Genocidal Bolshevik Riot at Charlottesville". I didn't go to the site. But the feelings are at that level.

[Projectile]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Mere Nick
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Events like the post-election riots and the crap like this today need to stop. If folks want to walk around spouting their piece, fine, but destroying other people or their stuff is criminal.

I'm curious why the person who drove a car into a crowd is only charged with second degree murder, too. From the video I saw today, it sure looked like the driver meant to do it. I don't get how that would not be considered premeditated. I also don't understand how the driver could argue that death was not the goal. It looks like the driver can get up to 40 years in VA, plus the other charges.

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Events like the post-election riots

What post-election riots would those be?

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
[Votive]

Wow. I'd heard headlines about this on the radio, but didn't realize it was on this scale.

When I searched for news, one of the hits was a Nazi site, which declared "Jews Organizing Genocidal Bolshevik Riot at Charlottesville". I didn't go to the site. But the feelings are at that level.

[Projectile]

Because the Hebrew people have such a history of organizing genocidal bozhevik riots.
[Disappointed] [Mad]

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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433

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Oh ... right ... of course. I looked at the site. Because Lenin [Tear]

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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Events like the post-election riots

What post-election riots would those be?
Perhaps he means the rioting on January 20?
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Gee D
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Now the sad news that a helicopter on police duty has , with 2 more deaths.

Barry Goldwater's line about extremism in the defence of liberty being no vice has just flashed into my mind. How long before the rioters start sprouting similar remarks? And how long before Trump does?

[ 13. August 2017, 07:57: Message edited by: Gee D ]

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Schroedinger's cat

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
There's a "co-exist" idea suggested by all of this. Which is ridiculous, tragic and infuriating. My grandmother told me that there was no "co-exist" in the Tiergarten in Berlin in 1936. There is never a place for such beasts. There are limits to free speech. There are limits to tolerance, and tolerating the intolerant mustn't be tolerated.

Trumps call for "everyone" to work together was part of this.

If he had the slightest shred of decency he would have condemned the nazi rioters. But hte reality is, he supports them.

I fear the US is descending into chaos. I hold onto a small thread of hope that this is only a one-off event.

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Blog
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Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

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Adeodatus
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There are times when extremists like this can be mocked, told to go back home to their moms' basements, merely dismissed. Those are the times when it's just a few silly privileged white boys seeking attention for the imagined slights done to them. And away they go, and they grow up, and are suitably embarrassed by the memory.

There are other times, mercifully rare, when hatred must be crushed, utterly crushed. We are approaching one of those times, if we are not already in it.

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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Martin60
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That's how Dr. King defeated it wasn't it? And Mohandas K. Ghandi.

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Love wins

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sabine
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quote:
Originally posted by Lothlorien:
Seeing the clergy standing in line.some in vestments, all linking arms with the person next to them brought me to tears.

They were singing 'This Little Light of Mine," a song I don't particularly like but which seemed especially appropriate for this occasion.

sabine

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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano

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rolyn
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Not seen the news. Have read the above comments, hoping it is just a social media flash mob phenomenon.
How much can we blame recent quasi-political upheavals on Net communication? More importantly can the Net prevent our dark human history from repeating itself?

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Events like the post-election riots

What post-election riots would those be?
Perhaps he means the rioting on January 20?
Yes, right after the election, such as in Portland, up to yesterday.

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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Crœsos
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A few thoughts.

1. The neo-nazis and white supremacists you will always have with you, but until recently (say, sometime around January 20, 2017) they were rarely able/willing to gather in such large numbers for public demonstrations. Large torch-wielding mobs of racists are a new thing for America, at least in recent decades. It's hard not to conclude that the election of Donald Trump has really energized the racists among his core followers. The fact that his Justice Department is willing to zero out funding for tracking white supremacist terrorists would seem to likewise be an encouragement for this sort of thing.

2. It seems kind of perverse that kids willing to stand up to these people are derided as delicate snowflakes. Here are some photos. Closeup. At distance to give you some idea of what they were facing.

3. The proximate cause of white supremacists' anger in Charlottesville was the proposed removal of a statue memorializing noted traitor Robert E. Lee. Traitor Lee had no particular connections to Charlottesville, nor was the city notable for anything in particular during the the American Civil War other than being part of the Confederacy and having a small diversionary skirmish fought nearby. The statue itself was commissioned in 1917 and installed in 1924, long after the end of the Confederate Rebellion but right in the middle of the Jim Crow era. This was about the same time as the Ku Klux Klan revived into its second incarnation. This is not the first time in recent days that a torch-wielding mob of white supremacists have gathered in Charlottesville because of this stautue. They were there in May as well. All of which gives the lie to the usual platitudes about such monuments to treason being "about heritage not hate".

3. Why such a laggard response from local police? Maybe it's just me, but it seems like there should be some kind of police presence for torch-wielding mobs. Yet if you look at the "at distance" photo above, there doesn't seem to be any. As several others have pointed out, a large torch-wielding mob in any color other than white seems to draw an almost immediate police response in most American cities.

[ 13. August 2017, 12:34: Message edited by: Crœsos ]

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
I'm curious why the person who drove a car into a crowd is only charged with second degree murder, too. From the video I saw today, it sure looked like the driver meant to do it. I don't get how that would not be considered premeditated.

Premeditation, at least in terms of the legal definition of murder, usually requires not just evidence of intention (he meant to do it) but also some degree of advance planning. If the driver got into his car and sought out demonstrators to run over, that would constitute premeditation. If the driver encountered demonstrators and decided to run them over "in the heat of the moment" that does not count as premeditation. That's the distinction in most American states, including Virginia.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
There are times when extremists like this can be mocked, told to go back home to their moms' basements, merely dismissed. Those are the times when it's just a few silly privileged white boys seeking attention for the imagined slights done to them. And away they go, and they grow up, and are suitably embarrassed by the memory.

There are other times, mercifully rare, when hatred must be crushed, utterly crushed. We are approaching one of those times, if we are not already in it.

All of this can be said about both sides in these types of events over the last few months. The thing is, it seems, is that the people who show up to such happenings want the mayhem. They come geared up for a fight. It is a requirement for a successful march, protest, or whatever they want to call it.

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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Mere Nick
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# 11827

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
If the driver got into his car and sought out demonstrators to run over, that would constitute premeditation.

That appears to be the case according to the video I saw. Maybe they will up the charge after investigators finish.

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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Mere Nick
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# 11827

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:

noted traitor Robert E. Lee. Traitor Lee

He was given the choice of who he would be a traitor against: the US or his home state. As for the statue, that's a choice for the people of Charlottesville to make. It is my understanding they are going the sell the statue. It seems the marchers could have more easily and cheaply just taken up an online collection to buy it if that is really what it was all about.

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
He was given the choice of who he would be a traitor against: the US or his home state.

Only in America is a sentence such as this even conceivable.

It's a bit like debating whether to respect the authority of the CEO or the branch manager.

[ 13. August 2017, 13:24: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
All of this can be said about both sides in these types of events over the last few months. The thing is, it seems, is that the people who show up to such happenings want the mayhem. They come geared up for a fight. It is a requirement for a successful march, protest, or whatever they want to call it.

No, no it can't.

One side came with Nazi flags and an armed militia. They came with flaming torches.

Fuck your "both sides" narrative to Hell and back. One side was actually Nazis.

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Forward the New Republic

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Ricardus
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Exactly. From what I've read, some of the anti-fascists were throwing bottles of water, which is wrong and silly, but not even in the same moral universe as turning up dressed like SAS Walter Mitty types and murdering people.

Some of the anti-Trump protests include people who had fun deliberately destroying other people's property. Wrong and stupid, but still not in the same moral ballpark.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Ricardus
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Fortunately Donald Trump has condemned the kind of mealy-mouthed whatabouttery that prevents people from calling terrorism by its name:
quote:
These are radical white supremacist terrorists and she won't even mention the word, and nor will President Obama. He won't use the term 'radical white supremacist terrorism'. Now, to solve a problem, you have to be able to state what the problem is or at least say the name. She won't say the name and President Obama won't say the name. But the name is there. It's radical white supremacist terror.
.
Actually on reflection he might have said 'Islamic' instead of 'white supremacist' but I'm sure a strong-minded president would never exhibit any inconsistency in the way he deals with terrorism.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

Posts: 7178 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:

noted traitor Robert E. Lee. Traitor Lee

He was given the choice of who he would be a traitor against: the US or his home state.
As a commissioned officer in the U.S. Army, the traitor Lee swore an oath to "bear true allegiance to the United States of America" and to "obey the orders of the President of the United States of America, and the orders of the officers appointed over me". To the best of my knowledge he never took a similar oath to the state of Virginia or its governor. Citation?

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

Posts: 10500 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Events like the post-election riots

What post-election riots would those be?
Perhaps he means the rioting on January 20?
Yes, right after the election, such as in Portland, up to yesterday.
False equivalence of the same sort Trump was dangerously peddling yesterday.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11131 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Fortunately Donald Trump has condemned the kind of mealy-mouthed whatabouttery that prevents people from calling terrorism by its name:

Please don't do stress tests on Poe's law [Waterworks]

It's bad enough dealing with the presidency's 'alternative facts', misreporting and barefaced inconsistencies as it is, without having to decipher more tweaked by its opponents, even to drive home a valid point.

(Trump tweets and their parodies definitely prove Poe's Law).

[ 13. August 2017, 14:30: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17309 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
It seems the marchers could have more easily and cheaply just taken up an online collection to buy it if that is really what it was all about.

This kind of misses the point of such statues. White supremacists don't want monuments to Treason in Defense of Slavery for their own sake. The whole point is that although the Confederacy failed in its attempt to form an overtly white supremacist nation-state, having such monuments erected by the civil authorities and maintained on public land reminds everyone who is really [still] in charge; the political and intellectual heirs of those who committed treason in defense of slavery. That's one of the reason there was such a boom in those monuments from 1890 to 1930, and why Kentucky and Maryland (both states that fought for the Union) have more Confederate monuments than Union ones.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

Posts: 10500 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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So, Mere Nick, you want to explain your point of view? You want to defend the racism of the Old South? Or the New South? How about states' rights, which we all know in this context code for the right to own slaves?
Posts: 24429 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:

noted traitor Robert E. Lee. Traitor Lee

He was given the choice of who he would be a traitor against: the US or his home state.
As a commissioned officer in the U.S. Army, the traitor Lee swore an oath to "bear true allegiance to the United States of America" and to "obey the orders of the President of the United States of America, and the orders of the officers appointed over me". To the best of my knowledge he never took a similar oath to the state of Virginia or its governor. Citation?
Lee is often portrayed as making a principled decision to turn his coat. Part of the "Lost Cause" myth.
It conveniently ignores that this "principle" supported torture, rape, murder and enslavement of a whole group of people.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17100 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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While I do not support violence, this is instructive. American tourist beaten up after Nazi salute in Dresden

Limits on free speech are noted, both the Nazi symbols and beating are illegal. Some Chinese tourists are noted to have been charged for similar.

Posts: 11173 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Adeodatus
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# 4992

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Fuck your "both sides" narrative to Hell and back. One side was actually Nazis.

This.

The Nazis were also shouting "Fuck you, faggots." That's me, in case you need reminding. I, and people like me, are among those they want to destroy. And I'm not going to "ignore the bullies and they'll go away", because they never do. If they come near me and mine, or into my community, I'm going to make them wish they'd never been born.

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

Posts: 9771 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Dave W.
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# 8765

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
While I do not support violence, this is instructive. American tourist beaten up after Nazi salute in Dresden

Limits on free speech are noted, both the Nazi symbols and beating are illegal. Some Chinese tourists are noted to have been charged for similar.

Instructive how? What lesson do you draw from that incident?
Posts: 2030 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ohher
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# 18607

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By semi-coincidence, I had begun reading Laurence Rees's The Holocaust: A New History a few days ago, before Charlottesville. Current US politics prompted the choice.

While I've not finished the book, I'm struck by Rees's apparent contention that there was nothing "inevitable" about the Final Solution, due to Hitler's not giving voice to this explicit outcome, despite his own virulent anti-Semitism dating from (at least) 1919.

He simply pointed his party in the direction of anti-Semitism, and left it to subordinates to outdo one another in devising ever crueler and more homicidal expressions of anti-Semitism.

This, it seems, is how Trump succeeds in orchestrating his racist, anti-Semitic, and anti-Muslim followers. He not only fails to explicitly condemn the racism, anti-Semitism, anti-Muslim sentiments and actions (he has STILL said nothing, that I'm aware of, regarding the recent mosque bombing, and was slow in condemning the "protest" in Charlottesville (and condemned "all sides" in that), he leaves openings for interpretation by more rabid elements among his followers to act upon.

When blame comes, Trump will be able to stand clear ("I never told them to do that"), leaving his supporters to twist in the wind.

Provided, of course, said supporters don't emerge victorious in what begins to look like a continuation of the Civil War.

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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free

Posts: 276 | From: New Hampshire, USA | Registered: Jun 2016  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
He was given the choice of who he would be a traitor against: the US or his home state.

Only in America is a sentence such as this even conceivable.

It's a bit like debating whether to respect the authority of the CEO or the branch manager.

He never swore an oath to uphold the constitution of his state. As an Army Officer, he did swear an oath to uphold the constitution of the United States of America. He is a traitor.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

Posts: 63202 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged



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