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Source: (consider it) Thread: Charlottesville
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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Mousethief.

Eutychus isn't a host on this board. Neither are you. Currently (discussions are happening in the back room) both comments in question are allowed (specifically here) on the Ship.

DT
HH


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Forward the New Republic

Posts: 8854 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I understand the ship a little better. It's okay to tell someone to die screaming, but not to ask if they would stand against the water cannons on the bridge at Selma. Really I had thought better of the ship than this. Today has been an awakening.

Actually I had thought better of you than that, which is why I called you on it and didn't waste my time on calling out Romanlion.

Perhaps instead of second-guessing what other Shipmates would have done on the bridge at Selma you'd like to tell us what you'd have done and what personal experience you base your estimation on?

Or at least stop trying to change the subject.

[ 15. August 2017, 21:33: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I would protest, loudly but peacefully.

When they tried to make speeches I would be with the crowd shouting them down and preventing the media from hearing them.

I wouldn't chase them with sticks or anything else, I can't hurt living things, even wasps.

But, if they come down my street with guns and torches what use would I be? None.

So at the Selma bridge you would have turned tail and fled?
As many understandably did. But you know that you wouldn't.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 16899 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Ozymandias The Great now declares that both sides are to blame for the violence, according to the BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40943425

Is it just me, or do others find his reactions confusing and/or conflicting?

IJ

I find them pathetic. The man is absolutely pathetic.

I hate, absolutely hate, calling a human being pathetic. I'm trembling as I type. Being made by God we are special and worthy of respect. But I am starting to think some people so besmirch their Image and Likeness that there is no other word.

My maths' teacher called me Inversely Human once as a play on my initials. It stuck. I think the name should pass to Trump as I honestly see nothing human, or humane, in him. Yes, I'm sure the protestors on the left aren't perfect and there are some nutjobs among them; but we're dealing with fucking Nazis here. Not nazi as an insult by some precious snowflake who cannot abide anyone challenging their views; but Nazis as in people who love the name, the flag and all the Third Reich stood for apparently. And for a president, sorry, The President of the most powerful nation on earth, to waver on condemnation of them -- bloody pathetic.

I need to go for a walk.

Posts: 7558 | From: Albury, Australia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Perhaps instead of second-guessing what other Shipmates would have done on the bridge at Selma you'd like to tell us what you'd have done and what personal experience you base your estimation on?

I didn't second-guess, fuckwit. I ASKED. Maybe some people's questions are all rhetorical questions and they know the answers beforehand, or think they do. Maybe you are one of those persons, I don't know. Some people actually ask questions that are questions.

Boogie seemed to be saying she wouldn't stand up to the thugs. I wanted to clarify: really? You wouldn't stand up even at a place like Selma? Interestingly she hasn't had a chance to answer this, since our exchange has been hijacked by the self-righteous brigade (starring you) for reasons you know best.

quote:
Or at least stop trying to change the subject.
How we would stand up to tyranny if we were on the firing line is very much within the remit of this thread.

Your self righteous "Well *I* am on the firing line every day, how about you?" doesn't really help the thread at all, however much it helps your ego. How many of us know what we might do if the next Charlottesville turns out to be our home town? At least we can work out in theory what we might choose in discussions exactly like this thread. The interjection of taunts like your childish "My background shows I'm a tough guy, what does yours show" really don't help us do that.

Oh I know it's Hell after all and you can be a fucking jerk all you please. How dare I try to turn off your microphone. Blah blah. But sometimes threads in Hell fulfill other purposes than mere shrieking. This one was doing that. Why don't you let it continue and stop grandstanding?

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

Posts: 63123 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Something is going to give.
Posts: 11082 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Something is going to give.

Is that a comment on this thread or the insanity in the US? (Kinda works either way IMO.)
Posts: 24416 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607

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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Ozymandias The Great now declares that both sides are to blame for the violence, according to the BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40943425

Is it just me, or do others find his reactions confusing and/or conflicting?

IJ

According to assorted reports, pretty much everybody, including his own staff, advisors, and aides, finds his reactions confusing and conflicting.

I suspect confusing those around him is a deliberate strategy on T's part. It makes him feel as though he's in control when he can keep everybody else back-footed and scrambling for purchase on the latest T "stance," as if there actually were such a thing. It makes him feel as though he's the only one who knows what's going on. The fact that the latest politweet contradicts some position he took two days (or four hours or 20 minutes) ago is irrelevant, as long as it keeps his underlings (and bear in mind that the Trumpiverse consists solely of himself and underlings) confused.

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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free

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Pangolin Guerre
Shipmate
# 18686

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I have become impatient with this discussion, especially with those who (whether they admit it or not) are soft-pedalling Charlottesville, can't we all just get along, rousing chorus of Kumbaya, and try to reason with the racist, fascist motherfuckingcocksuckers.

1) My family has a history of anti-fascist activity.

2) I have a history of anti-fascist activity.

3) I spent four years in grad school neck-deep in studying fascism.

4) I have been the victim of targeted identity violence.

Nazi? Beat the fucker up. My reasoned argument will have no impact on him. My baseball bat, however.....

I am not Gandhi. I am more inclined toward Madiba. (Before you get all sanctimonious with me, remember UMkhonto we Sizwe.)

[ 16. August 2017, 04:04: Message edited by: Pangolin Guerre ]

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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I didn't second-guess, fuckwit. I ASKED. Maybe some people's questions are all rhetorical questions and they know the answers beforehand, or think they do. Maybe you are one of those persons, I don't know. Some people actually ask questions that are questions.

1. I believe you when you say that's what you meant, but it came across to me the same way it came across to Eutychus.

2. This thread is about Nazis. Actual Nazis. Those guys are the bad guys. Not anyone on this thread. People on this thread are not the bad guys.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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MaryLouise
Shipmate
# 18697

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quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:


I am not Gandhi. I am more inclined toward Madiba. (Before you get all sanctimonious with me, remember UMkhonto we Sizwe.)

Oddly enough, I was thinking about Mandela when I saw Barack Obama's tweet. The American appreciation of Mandela is often stripped of context, not just of the armed struggle but the problematic legacy left by Mandela's ANC, 20+ years of corrupt and incompetent government. Many South Africans now look back to the earlier Mandela rather than the peacemaker released from prison trying to unify a divided nation.

Historiography is always shifting, always under review. Gandhi developed satyagraha in South Africa as a way to unify oppressed Indian communities. It is debatable that this practice of non-violence worked in South Africa although Luthuli was influenced by the idea of disciplined non-violent resistance. The Sharpeville massacre showed that unarmed protesters were facing violence on a scale that couldn't be countered or limited by non-violent means.

But here's Mandela from the dock in the Rivonia trial of 1964:

'We felt that without violence there would be no way open to the African people to succeed in their struggle against the principle of white supremacy. All lawful modes of expressing opposition to this principle had been closed by legislation, and we were placed in a position in which we had either to accept a permanent state of inferiority, or to defy the Government. We chose to defy the law. We first broke the law in a way which avoided any recourse to violence; when this form was legislated against, and then the Government resorted to a show of force to crush opposition to its policies, only then did we decide to answer violence with violence.'

--------------------
“As regards plots I find real life no help at all. Real life seems to have no plots.”

-- Ivy Compton-Burnett

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Boogie seemed to be saying she wouldn't stand up to the thugs. I wanted to clarify: really? You wouldn't stand up even at a place like Selma?

Exactly. Step back from your keyboard for a minute and ask yourself how that comes across.

Put that way, your implication is that any decent person would stand their ground if the cause was good enough, including you. It doesn't come across any better the second time.

From where I'm sitting, either you have balls of steel and can demonstrate it from experience - or you're just trying to put her down.

quote:
Interestingly she hasn't had a chance to answer this
What twaddle. Anyone can post any time they like.
quote:
our exchange has been hijacked by the self-righteous brigade (starring you)
Suggesting you'd have the fortitude to stand firm on Selma bridge, and Boogie wouldn't (which is how that post very definitely comes across to at least two of us) seems pretty self-righteous to me.

quote:
quote:
Or at least stop trying to change the subject.
How we would stand up to tyranny if we were on the firing line is very much within the remit of this thread.
Absolutely. That's why I keep asking you what actual experience you bring to the table, and keep wondering why you keep trying to change the subject (that last being a particularly fine piece of whataboutery).

quote:
How many of us know what we might do if the next Charlottesville turns out to be our home town?
Absolutely. That's why your post to Boogie was such a shit question. It doesn't answer what you might do: it just makes you sound superior to her, on no grounds whatsoever.
quote:
At least we can work out in theory what we might choose in discussions exactly like this thread.
Your post didn't come across as working out anything at all. It came across as criticism of others' attempts to do so. Particularly so in that none of your posts prior to that relate any actual experience or what you think you would have done.
quote:
But sometimes threads in Hell fulfill other purposes than mere shrieking.
Indeed. And in a conversation about putting oneself in situations where might one endanger one's life during the course of which several posters have been implying that the only self-respecting option in this case is to rush out and do so immediately, it makes sense to me to find out who is speaking from a position of experience - especially when criticism is implied - and who is simply posturing.

Parts of this discussion remind me of the pilots' forum I lurk on in which (to the regulars) it quickly becomes apparent which posters are actual pilots and which have flying hours that don't extend beyond the simulator program on their desktop PC.

--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17190 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

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Something that may give you a smile. If they're allowed down here.
Posts: 7558 | From: Albury, Australia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
1) My family has a history of anti-fascist activity.

2) I have a history of anti-fascist activity.

3) I spent four years in grad school neck-deep in studying fascism.

4) I have been the victim of targeted identity violence.

Nazi? Beat the fucker up. My reasoned argument will have no impact on him. My baseball bat, however.....

Well, good for you! Is your dick really huge too?

My family has a brief history of fascist activity.

My family is Mennonite on both sides, going back for hundreds of years. So only one person in my family fought in World War II, and he was a Nazi. Having suffered under Stalin before the family escaped the Crimea, Great-uncle Heinrich left the US to go fight for Germany. I have the letters he wrote after he'd left home but not yet reached Germany, signed "Heil Hitler." My grandmother, his sister, loved him. He was a real person, a human being. He took up arms against something he hated, something that had come close to ruining his family. He never came home, and no one knew what happened to him until my youngest brother lived in Germany in the early 2000s and did some research and found out where his unit was when it was completely wiped out. But my grandmother had died in 1979.

Go ahead and feel all warm and excited about your willingness to pick up a baseball bat. Maybe indulge in the myth of redemptive violence while you're at it. It'll feel good. Maybe even bashing in someone's head will feel good, or at least imagining it might be -- shattered bone, blood everywhere, maybe even some brains if you get in some really good blows. And then imagine telling someone you'd bashed her brother's head in.

Or come to the US and get shot because you took a bat to a gunfight.

Posts: 24416 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
Something that may give you a smile. If they're allowed down here.

[Killing me]

Thanks for that!

Posts: 24416 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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I would stand up to thugs, and have done many times (Thuggish parents intent on harming me/other pupils/other teachers)

I have also been in difficult situations where I had to choose whether to talk run or fight.

I don't scare easily and go very calm in those kind of situations..

My sons went to a very rough school and were threatened with knives a few times, my advice was 'run like the wind'. Once my son ran home. He knew who the boy was, so I went round to their house and confronted his mother, letting her know what her son was up to and how he'd turn out if she didn't take him in hand.

But all my 'standing up to people' involves words, I can't hurt people, or any living thing - as I said - even a wasp. I just catch them and put them out of the house.

My words on this thread came not from fear, but from helplessness. If they were walking down my street with guns and torches I'd be useless.

I wasn't annoyed by mousetheif's question, it made me think. I still don't know the answer as to what I would have done, who does?

We were brought up in apartheid South Africa and my family broke the law all the time, my Dad worked in black Soweto, we were perfectly safe there as we were well known and my Dad was a minister. When confronted by police with guns he acted innocent 'I'm so sorry, we didn't know, we've only just arrived from England' ( a lie) No point getting arrested. Went round the corner and continued breaking the law (black people in the car with us etc etc). My Mum did the same. We were expected to be separate from black people in every way. We were the opposite, they were our friends, we ate with them and they stayed with us as guests.

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Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 12679 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Boogie--

Are you familiar with talk-show host Trevor Noah? He's originally from S. Africa. Black mom, Swiss (?) dad. His very existence was a crime, and he wrote a book called "Born A Crime". Though I haven't read it, I've seen interviews where he talked about it and about his experiences. They had to do all sorts of dodges to stay out of trouble--including getting a white nanny, to give the illusion of Trevor having a white mom and a black nanny.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17994 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I see. It's that you are incapable of reading for content. All is forgiven.

Boogie was honest enough to admit her fears.

You gratuitously put her on the line by challenging her as to whether she would have stayed on the bridge at Selma.

The implication being that she ought to be able to overcome her fears and stay.

So I would like to know what entitles you to put her on the line like that.

I understand the ship a little better. It's okay to tell someone to die screaming, but not to ask if they would stand against the water cannons on the bridge at Selma. Really I had thought better of the ship than this. Today has been an awakening.
You're confusing Selma with Birmingham.

"The first march took place on March 7, 1965, organized locally by Bevel, Amelia Boynton, and others. State troopers and county possemen attacked the unarmed marchers with billy clubs and tear gas after they passed over the county line, and the event became known as Bloody Sunday. Law enforcement beat Boynton unconscious, and the media publicized worldwide a picture of her lying wounded on the Edmund Pettus Bridge. ... troopers began shoving the demonstrators, knocking many to the ground and beating them with nightsticks. Another detachment of troopers fired tear gas, and mounted troopers charged the crowd on horseback."

No mention of water cannon. We know that you would have heroically stood up against them, because you self righteously less say so, but what about the white law enforcers with tear gas, billy clubs and cavalry?

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Love wins

Posts: 16899 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058

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None of us know what we will do until we face a crisis.

That Mountain View will have an alt-right/white supremacist/whatever march hits close. The site of the march is less than 4 miles from me and I have friends working at Google.

There will be a counter protest at the Mountain View Civic Center from 1-3 p.m. on Saturday, Aug. 19 (this is a different time and place than the alt-right march; confrontation is not intended). I'm planning to attend.

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spinner of webs

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MaryLouise
Shipmate
# 18697

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GK, Boogie. Trevor Noah and Charlize Theron are currently in South Africa and working with schools and youth programmes. Trevor is also doing a number of shows around the country, did a very interesting interview on the local TV programme Carte Blanche in which he talked about how South Africans grow up thinking politically where most Americans are educated to be apolitical, not suspicious of institutions or laws, not as likely to protest or refuse to comply. He said our politicised lawlessness isn't always smart.

Trevor and Charlize in SA

Boogie, I don't think anyone knows what he or she will do in a life-threatening crisis or faced with violence. We all like to think we'd do the right thing but who knows? In 1998 I had a gun held to my head in downtown Johannesburg, stayed calm and kept talking to the mugger, pleading for my life, asking him about his family and what had happened to him to make him so angry. He let me go. I gave evidence to the police, had therapy, coped. In 2006, I was in a plane that bucketed around in turbulence over Nairobi in Kenya. I wet myself with terror, threw up and couldn't get my own oxygen mask on, had to be helped and didn't sleep for a week afterwards. IMHO, we just don't know ourselves well enough to say we'd be brave or self-protective or fall to pieces.

--------------------
“As regards plots I find real life no help at all. Real life seems to have no plots.”

-- Ivy Compton-Burnett

Posts: 498 | From: Cape Town | Registered: Nov 2016  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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We can improve with training. Special forces get special training. It's designed to be worse than most combat. Oh and by the way MaryLouise, you passed. Nothing beats surviving real situations [Overused]

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Love wins

Posts: 16899 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
MaryLouise
Shipmate
# 18697

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Thanks, Martin60, but being able to reliably predict if we'd react with heroic fortitude or common sense or prudence would be more noteworthy!

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“As regards plots I find real life no help at all. Real life seems to have no plots.”

-- Ivy Compton-Burnett

Posts: 498 | From: Cape Town | Registered: Nov 2016  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
2. This thread is about Nazis. Actual Nazis. Those guys are the bad guys. Not anyone on this thread. People on this thread are not the bad guys.

You need to take this message to Eutychus, who has been dealing out "you are the bad guy" vibes pretty solidly, with his "I'm worthy because I work in prisons and you don't" jive.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

Posts: 63123 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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Anyone seen that VICE* video?

Given the things that the leaders of the neo-Nazis said, their general outlook and the amount of weapons they were carrying, I'd say that they were looking for a fight.

I'm not sure that fighting or shouting by the "other side" really made a lot of difference. If there hadn't been a line of protestors, they would have likely attacked someone else.

If everyone had stayed home, who knows what they would have done.

*disgusting organisation but on this occasion the vid is worth seeing, it is on youtube

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arse

Posts: 10212 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
And in a conversation about putting oneself in situations where might one endanger one's life during the course of which several posters have been implying that the only self-respecting option in this case is to rush out and do so immediately, it makes sense to me to find out who is speaking from a position of experience - especially when criticism is implied - and who is simply posturing.

No, no, it really doesn't make sense. It's willy waving. You have the biggest willy because you work in the prison system with the door open and no beeper on. You win. Okay? Here, have a prize or something. You're the most bad-ass of all. This is what you want, right? The Mr. Badass Prize? Because it's what you've been fishing for.

quote:
Parts of this discussion remind me of the pilots' forum I lurk on in which (to the regulars) it quickly becomes apparent which posters are actual pilots and which have flying hours that don't extend beyond the simulator program on their desktop PC.
Yep. You're the real deal. The rest of us are all imitators. No one has the Nazi-busting chops like you.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

Posts: 63123 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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I'm a chicken - I once got caught up accidentally in a Neo-Nazi march in Dover as a bystander.

They were shouting and throwing things and there were a load of riot police penning them in.

And there were a bunch of people just standing and watching them. Not engaging with them, not shouting them down, not doing anything except silently witnessing and announcing that people from Dover don't support that shit.

If they'd really started attacking the police or anyone else, I'd have got my family out of there. As I said, I'm a chicken.

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arse

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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
And in a conversation about putting oneself in situations where might one endanger one's life during the course of which several posters have been implying that the only self-respecting option in this case is to rush out and do so immediately, it makes sense to me to find out who is speaking from a position of experience - especially when criticism is implied - and who is simply posturing.

No, no, it really doesn't make sense. It's willy waving. You have the biggest willy because you work in the prison system with the door open and no beeper on. You win. Okay? Here, have a prize or something. You're the most bad-ass of all. This is what you want, right? The Mr. Badass Prize? Because it's what you've been fishing for.

quote:
Parts of this discussion remind me of the pilots' forum I lurk on in which (to the regulars) it quickly becomes apparent which posters are actual pilots and which have flying hours that don't extend beyond the simulator program on their desktop PC.
Yep. You're the real deal. The rest of us are all imitators. No one has the Nazi-busting chops like you.

There were attack dogs with the water cannon and billy clubs at Birmingham, you'd have shrugged them off we know. You could feed them your own gall bladder now.

[ 16. August 2017, 09:49: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

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Love wins

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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Personally I'm a believer in non-violence. There would have been more injuries, possibly more deaths. But nobody could have had a shadow of doubt who was the aggressor.

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arse

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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Honestly? We would have all been terrified. And that's okay.

You can be terrified and still stand. Like they did.

I had cause recently to re-read my father-in-law's account of D-Day. Utterly matter of fact in the retelling. Sailing between the bombarding fleet and the beach. Setting the charges and scuttling the ship. Swimming to the landing craft (with the ship's cat around his neck) for rescue. Sailing back to England. All incredibly brave.

And then the near-mutiny at the muster area when someone told them they had to go back for other duties.

Any response is okay. Really it is.

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Forward the New Republic

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
This is what you want, right? The Mr. Badass Prize?

No, I want you to acknowledge that your challenge to Boogie came across as a gratuitous cheap shot in the absence of any claim by you as to how you yourself would react in the same circumstances.
quote:
Yep. You're the real deal. The rest of us are all imitators.
I put my real experience on the table because I was challenged about it.

I made the case for the benefit of citing actual experience when discussing these issues and you have failed to answer that case.

I've acknowledged the limitations of my experience, but at least I've put it out there, as have others, to put other people in a position to assess what I have to say.

You've failed so far to put any actual experience on the table. One thing's for sure, as things stand if I want advice on how to approach this kind of confrontation sensibly (as opposed to just fantasising about it) I'll have RuthW (for all I'm often find myself at loggerheads with her on other matters) somewhere up the top of my go-to list, and I won't bother listening to moralising from you.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
You've failed so far to put any actual experience on the table.

Maybe I haven't made myself crystal clear. I am not going to get into a willy waving contest with you or any other shipmate about how my experience proves I'm a tough guy more than they are. I don't know why you've got such a hardon for this kind of a showdown. Maybe you need to go buy a sports car or something. Leave me the fuck out of it.

Most of us, I think, are in mr cheesy's position. We'd like to think we are tough but we don't know how we'd really react when it came right down to it. (I thought I had said that earlier but maybe you couldn't hear me over the sound of your willy waving?)

I have no "moralising" to offer, so you'll not have to listen to any of it. Now put your dick away.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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mr cheesy
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Another thing I was reflecting is that "bravery" in one sphere of life does not always translate into another.

The things we are unafraid to do might be different to other people and being unafraid in one context doesn't necessarily give us credentials in another.

If we weren't there - or haven't been there in comparable circumstances - we can't really tell what we'd do.

Even things like the group around us might affect whether we'd turn and run, fight or some other action.

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arse

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I want you to acknowledge that your challenge to Boogie came across as a gratuitous cheap shot in the absence of any claim by you as to how you yourself would react in the same circumstances.

You want me to acknowledge that other people misread my post in a particular way? That's what "came across as" means. Surely that's for them to say, not me? I can acknowledge that you say that is how you read it, although in that case I'm just acknowledging your words. I have no access to inside your mind to see whether or not you really saw it that way, or are just lying about it.

This is a truly bizarre request.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645

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quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:

Nazi? Beat the fucker up. My reasoned argument will have no impact on him. My baseball bat, however.....

This sums up some of my thoughts on calling the pathetic losers in Charlottesville Nazis fairly well.

I'm in Baltimore, I was here during the riots, I re-upped my nonviolent resistance training with Rev Sekou, blah, blah, blah (since apparently we're required to give our credentials).

I'm not sure I will ever hear another sound as viscerally terrifying as the rhythmic tapping of police nightsticks against their riot shields.

I've got a (family) friend who is a former "by any means necessary" Black Panther. After being shot five times and spending some time in prison he found Jesus and renounced his violent ways.

And yet there are scholars who suggest that if they hadn't been facing a choice between Malcolm X's path and MLK's, most white Americans wouldn't have accepted much less embraced the nonviolent resistance of the civil rights movement.

After the Bmore to Cville march on Sunday night, the city announced a decision to remove its Confederate monuments. (The Republican governor also announced a plan to remove one). People who I respect and have worked with over the years made it very clear that any outside interference of the type that happened in Charlottesville would be met with bloodshed (and if our murder rate shows nothing else, it shows that the people have the guns to follow through). Is the person I know who spent time in jail on false gun charges right, that this is the place to draw the line, and that this is the time to back it up with violence if necessary? I don't know. I don't believe it's my path, but I have a certain respect for his willingness to take a stand and accept the consequences, whatever they may be.

After some vandalism of the Confederate monuments and at least counter-monument that the community had erected Sunday, I got word of a plan to destroy the monuments on Wednesday evening. I spent some time wondering if I should go, if only to serve as as a medic or legal observer if necessary. Lucky for me, the monuments started coming down a few hours ago (in the middle of the night here), so that's a decision I don't have to make.

And yet I'm also worried about the rhetorical atmosphere in my country. People have been loudly declaring that it's perfectly legitimate to punch Nazis for some time now. But the definition of Nazi being used worries me. The founder of Daily Kos and co-founder of Vox (left-wing sites with a fair amount of influence on that side of the political spectrum) recently declared that the NRA and American conservative/Nazis are one in the same. That's a lot of Nazis that people would apparently be justified in attacking. Antifa has a history of attacking people and property that have nothing to do with the evil they are allegedly protesting (I also have questions about people who feel strongly enough about an issue that they're willing to use violence but aren't willing to reveal their faces and show up to other people's organized protests wearing masks). Given swatting and the current viciousness of online threats, I even wonder about the effectiveness the kind of social shaming that everyone seems to accept (I know of at least one person who was wrongly identified as being at the Cville march and was driven from his home by the threats). Mob rule never seems to turn out well.

Throw in the recent Google mess, the government requesting the ISPs of visitors to an Anti-Trump website, and a bunch of other stuff, and it's an unholy mess. Singing kumbaya may be useless when it comes to influencing certain people who are firm in their convictions, but ISTM there are a lot of people who don't share those beliefs who are being driven into forming alliances with the truly hateful. And I don't think that's necessary, and I think it makes us less likely to be able to avoid massive and quite possibly unnecessary bloodshed.

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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

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anoesis
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# 14189

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
And in a conversation about putting oneself in situations where might one endanger one's life during the course of which several posters have been implying that the only self-respecting option in this case is to rush out and do so immediately, it makes sense to me to find out who is speaking from a position of experience - especially when criticism is implied - and who is simply posturing.

No, no, it really doesn't make sense. It's willy waving. You have the biggest willy because you work in the prison system with the door open and no beeper on. You win. Okay? Here, have a prize or something. You're the most bad-ass of all. This is what you want, right? The Mr. Badass Prize? Because it's what you've been fishing for.
Do you guys have history, or something? Is there something else about Eutychus, from some other time, that makes you inclined to believe the worst of him, in all circumstances? Because I went back and read through the posts that have got you all flamed up, and I'm just not seeing what you're seeing, not hearing what you're hearing.

Also - I have no street cred whatever, I don't work in a prison, and I'm not tanked up on whatever it is they give you after you have your gallbladder removed. But I have a nine-year-old. (Feel free to offer me a medal, for my hours at the barricades. Or a prize. Or something.) But, honestly - "You win, okay, you have the Mr. Bad-add prize"? Classic nine-year-old, through and through.

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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Leave me the fuck out of it.

Why didn't you leave Boogie the fuck out of it?

quote:
Most of us, I think, are in mr cheesy's position. We'd like to think we are tough but we don't know how we'd really react when it came right down to it.
Explain to me how this newfound insight on your part squares with your insinuation that at the Selma bridge, Boogie
quote:
would have turned tail and fled?
Put like that, it wasn't an open question, however much you try and make it one now.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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Can we leave this now?

I'd probably have fled Selma. How about attacking me for that rather than someone else?

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arse

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by saysay:

And yet I'm also worried about the rhetorical atmosphere in my country. People have been loudly declaring that it's perfectly legitimate to punch Nazis for some time now. But the definition of Nazi being used worries me. The founder of Daily Kos and co-founder of Vox (left-wing sites with a fair amount of influence on that side of the political spectrum) recently declared that the NRA and American conservative/Nazis are one in the same. That's a lot of Nazis that people would apparently be justified in attacking. Antifa has a history of attacking people and property that have nothing to do with the evil they are allegedly protesting (I also have questions about people who feel strongly enough about an issue that they're willing to use violence but aren't willing to reveal their faces and show up to other people's organized protests wearing masks).

I've very recently lost friends on this issue. They insist that "punch a Nazi" is entirely appropriate and got pissed off when I suggested that this might not be the best idea.

For me, it isn't the punch that is the major problem - punching rarely causes lasting damage. The problem is the idea that an individual can decide on their own who is or isn't someone worthy of a punch-for-being-a-Nazi, that an individual can launch into a preemptive attack (albeit a minor one) without taking any responsibility for it, and that the individual and supporters can wash their hands of any resulting backlash.

The simple and salient fact is that fascism, Nazism and white supremacist ideologies are by definition violent. The whole motif is about rule-by-the-strong, it is about white people ruling because they are stronger than the liberals/blacks/gays etc.

Engaging them in violence might be understandable, but as a tactic it isn't very sensible because it is just giving them what they want.

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arse

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Can we leave this now?

I'd probably have fled Selma. How about attacking me for that rather than someone else?

Why? You had the honesty to admit that before suggesting that somebody else would, when you implied they should stay.

[ 16. August 2017, 10:36: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Martin60
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# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
You've failed so far to put any actual experience on the table.

Maybe I haven't made myself crystal clear. I am not going to get into a willy waving contest with you or any other shipmate about how my experience proves I'm a tough guy more than they are. I don't know why you've got such a hardon for this kind of a showdown. Maybe you need to go buy a sports car or something. Leave me the fuck out of it.

Most of us, I think, are in mr cheesy's position. We'd like to think we are tough but we don't know how we'd really react when it came right down to it. (I thought I had said that earlier but maybe you couldn't hear me over the sound of your willy waving?)

I have no "moralising" to offer, so you'll not have to listen to any of it. Now put your dick away.

No apology either. Ever. I mean EVER. Even when you're in the right and it's the relational thing to do regardless. Ever. Although you did acknowledge John Holding's point on your confused comment on Mary Ever Virgin. What's he got that nobody else has? You accepted mine a year or so ago. Didn't last long, which was my fault. And no, I have no idea how to make you happy apart from piss you off even further than your deep vinegar wells.

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Love wins

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Ozymandias The Great now declares that both sides are to blame for the violence, according to the BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40943425

Is it just me, or do others find his reactions confusing and/or conflicting?

IJ

Nope, that's Trump all over. Always has been, always will be.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Why? You had the honesty to admit that before suggesting that somebody else would, when you implied they should stay.

Well because you appear to be making a huge deal out of something someone said vaguely in someone else's direction. I thought maybe it would help for you to address someone who is prepared to reply rather than someone who isn't.

Basically I think everyone is saying the same thing: none of us really know what we'd do in this or comparable situations. Unless we've had specific training in tactics and specific experience in using them, I'm not sure how we could really know.

Given that I've not had the training and not been in the situation, I can only say that as I sit here now, I feel like I'd have run away from Selma.

But if I had been amongst the group who had training and had the combined self-belief and moral clarity about the importance of it, then maybe I'd have felt differently.

That's a subtly different point about whether someone should have run away from Selma. I don't think participants should have (in a moral sense, I'm not going to start judging anyone personally who might have run away).

If you really want to argue about whether you're braver than someone else - which seems a bit ridiculous given neither of us are trained riot police - then carry on.

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arse

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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Amazingly, I agree with everything in that post. But that's not what my problem with mousethief's post was.

Mousethief's very first post on the issue of staying at a potentially violent demonstration was not speculation on what he himself might or might not have done, or sharing any relevant experience he may have had, but instead simply to suggest that another poster would have run away, leaving his own actions or intentions unsaid.

If there was a more constructive intention hiding in that post, it could have been worded considerably better.

[ 16. August 2017, 11:33: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:


Mousethief's very first post on the issue of staying at a potentially violent demonstration was not speculation on what he himself might or might not have done, or sharing any relevant experience he may have had, but instead simply to suggest that another poster would have run away, leaving his own actions or intentions unsaid.

Or it could just have been a question to further the discussion.

quote:
Boogie:
I wouldn't chase them with sticks or anything else, I can't hurt living things, even wasps.

But, if they come down my street with guns and torches what use would I be? None.

quote:
Mousethief:
So at the Selma bridge you would have turned tail and fled?

Boogie admits that he/she would have been no use against guns and torches. Mousethief wonders aloud whether maybe Boogie might have felt a bit different in a circumstance like Selma bridge.

I don't see the problem here.

Boogie could have responded "oh, I don't know. Maybe it would have been different if I'd been amongst a bunch of other people"

Or possibly "oh, no. I think I might have run away from that too"

Or some other combination of thoughts.

I just don't see that there is speculation or judgement in the question, just teasing out further discussion. It isn't a necessary reading of the question to imply that Mousethief is suggesting something about Boogie's lack of moral compass.

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arse

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Boogie:
I wouldn't chase them with sticks or anything else, I can't hurt living things, even wasps.

But, if they come down my street with guns and torches what use would I be? None.

quote:
Mousethief:
So at the Selma bridge you would have turned tail and fled?

Boogie admits that he/she would have been no use against guns and torches. Mousethief wonders aloud whether maybe Boogie might have felt a bit different in a circumstance like Selma bridge.

I don't see the problem here.

If that was all MT was doing then he could have asked that question in those words.

As it is, he ups the ante: he doesn't simply reiterate her stance (not using violence); he introduces the (on the face of it less honourable) suggestion that she would flee the scene. It is a closed question that puts the other person on the defensive, not an open one.

I'm tired of drive-by aggressivity like that around here.

[ 16. August 2017, 12:31: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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mdijon
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# 8520

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quote:
Originally posted by MaryLouise:
Thanks, Martin60, but being able to reliably predict if we'd react with heroic fortitude or common sense or prudence would be more noteworthy!

Your honesty is far more noteworthy than any such hopeless claim.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
1) My family has a history of anti-fascist activity.

2) I have a history of anti-fascist activity.

3) I spent four years in grad school neck-deep in studying fascism.

4) I have been the victim of targeted identity violence.

Nazi? Beat the fucker up. My reasoned argument will have no impact on him. My baseball bat, however.....

Well, good for you! Is your dick really huge too?

My family has a brief history of fascist activity.

My family is Mennonite on both sides, going back for hundreds of years. So only one person in my family fought in World War II, and he was a Nazi. Having suffered under Stalin before the family escaped the Crimea, Great-uncle Heinrich left the US to go fight for Germany. I have the letters he wrote after he'd left home but not yet reached Germany, signed "Heil Hitler." My grandmother, his sister, loved him. He was a real person, a human being. He took up arms against something he hated, something that had come close to ruining his family. He never came home, and no one knew what happened to him until my youngest brother lived in Germany in the early 2000s and did some research and found out where his unit was when it was completely wiped out. But my grandmother had died in 1979.

Go ahead and feel all warm and excited about your willingness to pick up a baseball bat. Maybe indulge in the myth of redemptive violence while you're at it. It'll feel good. Maybe even bashing in someone's head will feel good, or at least imagining it might be -- shattered bone, blood everywhere, maybe even some brains if you get in some really good blows. And then imagine telling someone you'd bashed her brother's head in.

Or come to the US and get shot because you took a bat to a gunfight.

If we're doing true confessions now, all of fathers cousins fought for Nazi Germany, four were SS, and we have unequivocal evidence that one killed on 31 Oct 1945 while an American POW in Michigan participated in mass shootings on the Russian front. The surviving family in Germany I visit, my great uncle's, was a party member. I am alive because my grandfather left the country. They got out of Singapore in Jan 1942 and my father subsequenty trained in the Canadian military, which is another story.

You see, it is the nice, quiet and living-their-own-lives people who are dangerous. They voted for him. They listen to trumpy and think that, yes, anti-racialist protesters were indeed aggressive, and their world view of everything is ok is shored up. And they do think that the brown peoples have made their lives difficult economically, and they like the coarseness of trumpy because they have heard this from eachother at work and over the back fence. And they want better lives. Whatever else trumpy and adolf have in common, they sell a racialized theory which gives people hope. And it isn't seen as extreme, it is seen as rhetoric; bright and amusing. Tell it like it is. Get something done and recover a mythic past, antebellum.

There's a Freudian piece here too with trumpy's sexism. trump encourages vicariously fucking over the various people he thinks are niggers. With violence as they breed like rabbits and let's build a rabbit proof fence and extreme vetting-fuck them. ( and I am sorry for N word, but because it is what he and his supporters think, necessary)

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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Holy crap.

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arse

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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This is from the POST, but is exceptionally well written and full of great nuggets. A quote:
'If you were to tell me that George Clooney had become a supremacist, I would be shocked — but I would have to admit that he had a data point smiling from his bathroom mirror. The man is handsome, rich, talented, funny, suave, intelligent and for all I know trustworthy, loyal and brave. Were Clooney to make a leap from his individual reality to a more generalized theory of Clooney supremacy, I could at least follow his train of thought. But these guys? Judging from their mug shots, white nationalism seems to hold a special appeal for disheveled alcoholics, repressed jackboot fetishists and guys who might keep their mothers taxidermied in the basement. The gap between the rhetoric and the reality made the odious Daily Stormer website look downright ridiculous in the wake of the Charlottesville violence. “Go out and enjoy yourselves,” the website counseled wannabe Nazis. “Random girls will want to have sex with you. Because you’re the bad boys. . . . Every girl on the planet wants [you] now.” '

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 5676 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
The founder of Daily Kos and co-founder of Vox (left-wing sites with a fair amount of influence on that side of the political spectrum) recently declared that the NRA and American conservative/Nazis are one in the same. That's a lot of Nazis that people would apparently be justified in attacking.

That can happen if you make videos warning white people that the black hordes are coming to murder them.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

Posts: 10443 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged



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