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Source: (consider it) Thread: Charlottesville
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Being a sociopath grants one no special abilities. It is a lacking, not a power.
Besides, symptoms tend to lessen with age, so...

I am aware of the first, and give lie to the second.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

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ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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The hottest part of hell is reserved for the idiot monk who divided the bible into verses. Made it look like an almost infinite number of individual statements with intrinsic independent truth value.

He is, to my mind, the first bibliolator because he created these units, obscuring the true construction of biblical texts. Those that hold on to small fragments without interpreting them in the context of the whole are his descendents, and leading themselves into the same hell.

--------------------
Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
The hottest part of hell is reserved for the idiot monk who divided the bible into verses. Made it look like an almost infinite number of individual statements with intrinsic independent truth value.

He is, to my mind, the first bibliolator because he created these units, obscuring the true construction of biblical texts. Those that hold on to small fragments without interpreting them in the context of the whole are his descendents, and leading themselves into the same hell.

Here's one of those small fragments I cling to on my way to Hell: "Judge not lest you be judged."
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Well, as a sociopath, it's only the teachings of Jesus that stop me from burning this whole shitpile down, with all you meatsacks in it.

Be grateful for small mercies.

[Killing me]

Now we just need the rusty farm implements.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Lamb Chopped--

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I damn well DO cling to any number of verses, and to the Bible as a whole. And I'm not going to be ashamed of it.

Nor should you. Particularly if it's something that helps or comforts you, or gives you guidance.

Now, if it's the OT instructions for how to properly dig a latrine, I might suggest you either just buy a Porta-Potty, or double-check book, chapter, and verse, in case you're supposed to be somewhere else!
[Biased]

There all kinds of ways to relate to the Bible. Not all of them involve slicing and dicing it, like a Veg-o-Matic (Wikipedia), and systematically rearranging individual, shredded words to see if they mean anything and have any relationship to each other. (Also rather like the Auditors in T. Pratchett's "Thief Of Time"--they don't understand art *at all*, and demolish a picture down to a pile of dust, trying to understand it.)

[Fixed link. You're welcome]

[ 30. August 2017, 08:46: Message edited by: Doc Tor ]

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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ThunderBunk--

quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
The hottest part of hell is reserved for the idiot monk who divided the bible into verses. Made it look like an almost infinite number of individual statements with intrinsic independent truth value.

He is, to my mind, the first bibliolator because he created these units, obscuring the true construction of biblical texts. Those that hold on to small fragments without interpreting them in the context of the whole are his descendents, and leading themselves into the same hell.

Might be mighty hard to find anything, without the divisions.

Is this an "I need an antacid!" sort of day? [Biased]

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Lamb Chopped--

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I damn well DO cling to any number of verses, and to the Bible as a whole. And I'm not going to be ashamed of it.

Nor should you. Particularly if it's something that helps or comforts you, or gives you guidance.

Now, if it's the OT instructions for how to properly dig a latrine, I might suggest you either just buy a Porta-Potty, or double-check book, chapter, and verse, in case you're supposed to be somewhere else!
[Biased]

You know, you're tempting me... [Two face] [Killing me]

I promise to do the dig-a-hole thing the next time I find myself living in an Iron Age camp or walled city. [Biased] Absent that situation, I think I'll settle for modern toilets.

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
There all kinds of ways to relate to the Bible. Not all of them involve slicing and dicing it, like a Veg-o-Matic (Wikipedia), and systematically rearranging individual, shredded words to see if they mean anything and have any relationship to each other. (Also rather like the Auditors in T. Pratchett's "Thief Of Time"--they don't understand art *at all*, and demolish a picture down to a pile of dust, trying to understand it.)

Sure. This is not an approach I cling to. It's the Scripture itself I cling to, not blender or dice-o-matic approaches. Those leave my story-loving soul pretty cold.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Might be mighty hard to find anything, without the divisions.

Exactly! This is why no one ever quotes anything from regular books.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

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I recently got my hands on an advice book, published around 1900. Horrifically, the authors had such a good opinion of themselves that they numbered their tips just like the Bible. So that you could refer to the advice easily. Instantly and forever offputting. And oh, the advice sucked wet donkey schlong.

[ 30. August 2017, 14:18: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Might be mighty hard to find anything, without the divisions.

Exactly! This is why no one ever quotes anything from regular books.
Are you seriously suggesting we do page numbers with name of author?

Because there happen to be just a few different editions out there, and things could get sticky rather quickly.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Are you seriously suggesting we do page numbers with name of author?

Because there happen to be just a few different editions out there, and things could get sticky rather quickly.

And they don't with all the ridiculous stunt quoting people do now?

Of course, the danger of actually teaching the bible with context and everything is that one's context might be challenged.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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lb--

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Of course, the danger of actually teaching the bible with context and everything is that one's context might be challenged.

{sweetly}

Of course, that goes both ways, doesn't it? The *challenger's* context might be challenged, too.

And I don't know what you think goes on in Sunday School and church; but IME there's a whole lotta teachin' goin' on--with context.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:

Of course, that goes both ways, doesn't it? The *challenger's* context might be challenged, too.

And I don't know what you think goes on in Sunday School and church; but IME there's a whole lotta teachin' goin' on--with context.

Not only Sundays but lots of mid-week classes. My pastor always has a class going on for those of us who want to read the Bible straight through and another one for special focus.

In her Sunday sermons, she usually takes a long passage, read "in context," and then discusses it with additional information about the politics and customs of the day to put into even better perspective.

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
lb--

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Of course, the danger of actually teaching the bible with context and everything is that one's context might be challenged.

{sweetly}

Of course, that goes both ways, doesn't it? The *challenger's* context might be challenged, too.

Of course. However, a discussion of differing views is not what one generally gets when confronting proof texters. Their common retort is "God said it, I believe it and that settles it".
quote:

And I don't know what you think goes on in Sunday School and church; but IME there's a whole lotta teachin' goin' on--with context.

I am not completely ignorant here. I would say at best it is micro-context. e.g. when Noah is taught, the moral lesson for that story might be taught. But how many teach that the bible is a mix of history, culture, mythology, religion and justification? And how many try to put the nasty stuff in context with Jesus' teachings? "We just cannot know" or "that is the way it was, it is different now" are pretty weak sauce.
Some undoubtedly do. But not enough from all evidence.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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Now, I'm really confused. You know that parts of the Old Testament are mythology, history and culture, but you're upset that some of those things conflict with what Jesus taught. Someone does something vicious during a battle within the history of the Jews and it conflicts with Jesus' teachings hundreds of years later so it invalidates what he taught?

What you're calling proof texting started over a discussion of the Southern Baptist's mission statement. They're a Christian church. They're supposed to reflect the teachings of Christ. His words apply.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

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Eh? Are you confusing what LB is saying with the way the attitude to Scripture she is criticising forces one to struggle with conflict and contradiction?

FWIW, no, Jesus' worda are not invalidated by being contradicted in the OT or indeed the Epistles (careful now! Down with this sort of thing!) but an "all Scripture is the Word of God", "I've got a proof-text and I'm gling to use it" attitude does force one to, well, mostly pretend that there's no conflict.

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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So you're saying no one should ever quote the Bible? I don't get that either.

Can we quote other books?

How about "The God Delusion?"

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
So you're saying no one should ever quote the Bible? I don't get that either.

Can we quote other books?

How about "The God Delusion?"

Is this International Non-sequitur Day or something? What you can't do is expect a single out of context verse to be a convincing argument for anything.

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Is this International Non-sequitur Day or something?

Karl - what a brilliant idea for an international day [Overused] The world would be in such confusion that it might begin to make sense.

Huia

--------------------
Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Is this International Non-sequitur Day or something?

quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
The world would be in such confusion that it might begin to make sense.

I don't see how that follows.

--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Is this International Non-sequitur Day or something?

quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
The world would be in such confusion that it might begin to make sense.

I don't see how that follows.

Yeah. You'll have to let us know where you're going with that. [Big Grin]

--------------------
Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Is this International Non-sequitur Day or something?

quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
The world would be in such confusion that it might begin to make sense.

I don't see how that follows.

Yeah. You'll have to let us know where you're going with that. [Big Grin]
***Bzzzt*** Sorry Anselmina, but your comment does logically flow from mdijon's, so you lose a point.

(aka "How to get booted to the Circus", or more likely "how to get a thread terminated with extreme prejudice with a rusty pitchfork")

[ 31. August 2017, 11:10: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
So you're saying no one should ever quote the Bible? I don't get that either.

Can we quote other books?

How about "The God Delusion?"

Is this International Non-sequitur Day or something? What you can't do is expect a single out of context verse to be a convincing argument for anything.
Okay, it's a little bit of a non-sequitur, but the relevant part is the disallowing of the Bible while allowing everything else. People bring out quotes from MLK, JFK, "The Art of War," "The Life of Brian," and a hundred other people, movies and books all the time and no one screams, "Foul! it's out of context!"

This whole fussy "No proof texting from the Bible!" makes no sense to me. If you think the text doesn't apply because of "context," then it's up to you to explain how the context changes the meaning. "Jesus was only talking about during months without "R"s when he said that."

Let's try backing a Buddhist against the wall about his religion while not allowing any words of Buddha in the debate. See how that works.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
This whole fussy "No proof texting from the Bible!" makes no sense to me. If you think the text doesn't apply because of "context," then it's up to you to explain how the context changes the meaning. "Jesus was only talking about during months without "R"s when he said that."

Let's try backing a Buddhist against the wall about his religion while not allowing any words of Buddha in the debate. See how that works.

Because no one quotes Life of Brian without wanting to be witty, funny or sent into the hallway from class. No one quotes Martin King or John Kennedy except that they want to inspire. I suppose they could misuse quotes from such people to hurt and oppress, but I'm unaware if that's happened.

But people quote the bible so they can burn others at the stake, decide that certain groups of people shouldn't have rights to live perfectly decent lives with rights, so that they can violate the teachings of the religion's hero because apparently Jesus was a racist, truly wanted to be rich, was homophobic, a men’s rights activist and in the past, pro-slavery (he's always been a white guy right?) "Clobber texts" is one of the ways of talking about it. The proof texters usually want clobber other people. Sure sometimes they want to channel something in King James language because it is poetical, but that hardly justifies the clobbering.

So you've got people pretty sensitive when bible verses get chanted. I suppose Buddhists could do that, but do they?

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Clutch
Apprentice
# 18827

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
This whole fussy "No proof texting from the Bible!" makes no sense to me. If you think the text doesn't apply because of "context," then it's up to you to explain how the context changes the meaning. "Jesus was only talking about during months without "R"s when he said that."

Let's try backing a Buddhist against the wall about his religion while not allowing any words of Buddha in the debate. See how that works.

Because no one quotes Life of Brian without wanting to be witty, funny or sent into the hallway from class. No one quotes Martin King or John Kennedy except that they want to inspire. I suppose they could misuse quotes from such people to hurt and oppress, but I'm unaware if that's happened.

But people quote the bible so they can burn others at the stake, decide that certain groups of people shouldn't have rights to live perfectly decent lives with rights, so that they can violate the teachings of the religion's hero because apparently Jesus was a racist, truly wanted to be rich, was homophobic, a men’s rights activist and in the past, pro-slavery (he's always been a white guy right?) "Clobber texts" is one of the ways of talking about it. The proof texters usually want clobber other people. Sure sometimes they want to channel something in King James language because it is poetical, but that hardly justifies the clobbering.

So you've got people pretty sensitive when bible verses get chanted. I suppose Buddhists could do that, but do they?

If you have to rely on the Bible as your own tool in your arsenal, what makes you any different then a fundamentalist of any stripe or creed?

--------------------
Proud liberal socialist,proud progressive Anglo-Catholic and proud to be a conservative's bane.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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Prooftexting and quoting the Bible are not the same thing.

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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Ah we get to the real reason no one is comfortable quoting the Bible. Fear of someone thinking you're a raving, gay hating, gun loving fundamentalist. I think this started in Hollywood about fifty years ago with every Christian on screen being a narrow minded bigot, ranting against the evils of rock and roll.

So we've bought into that. Now all the reasonable, liberal Christians are afraid to say the "J," word much less admit they go to church on Sundays or gasp, quote the Bible. So of course the only Christians most people are aware of are the bigots. It plays right into the prejudices of the people who believe every Christian is an SNL's church lady.

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Clutch:

If you have to rely on the Bible as your own tool in your arsenal, what makes you any different then a fundamentalist of any stripe or creed?

No one suggested using that as one's only tool.

If you leave the world to think the only verse in the Bible is the OT one calling homosexuality an "abomination," then the bigots have succeeded. Why not whisper a few of Jesus' words about love and not judging?

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Clutch
Apprentice
# 18827

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by Clutch:

If you have to rely on the Bible as your own tool in your arsenal, what makes you any different then a fundamentalist of any stripe or creed?

No one suggested using that as one's only tool.

If you leave the world to think the only verse in the Bible is the OT one calling homosexuality an "abomination," then the bigots have succeeded. Why not whisper a few of Jesus' words about love and not judging?

I could use the quote in Acts 10:15 when the voice says to Peter: "What God has made clean, you must not call profane" Or point them to books like "God and the Gay Christian: The Biblical Case in Support of Same-Sex Relationships" by Matthew Vines. Or simply tell them, do we still stone people or follow the dietary laws in Leviticus and so on. But common sense wins out over trying to re-thump a fundy over the head with the bible again.

--------------------
Proud liberal socialist,proud progressive Anglo-Catholic and proud to be a conservative's bane.

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:

This whole fussy "No proof texting from the Bible!" makes no sense to me. If you think the text doesn't apply because of "context," then it's up to you to explain how the context changes the meaning.

Nope. When people are trying to affect the lives of others by claiming biblical authority, they must prove their case.

quote:

Let's try backing a Buddhist against the wall about his religion while not allowing any words of Buddha in the debate. See how that works.

No one, certainly not me, said anything about not using Jesus' own words.
IME, most proof texters uses the words other than Jesus' to clobber people.
Oh, and there are no 'words of Buddha'. Or of Jesus for that matter.

There are words other people say they said.

All the more reason that context and complete teachings are important.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16963 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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It doesn't matter much what we sensible people might think. Bible quoters are always bigots these days. I have been know to make up pretend verses like Fluoridations 77:34 which says "it's harder to listen your way into trouble than talk your way in", which useful when talking to quoters. (7734 of course is hell upside down in L33T)

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11082 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
It doesn't matter much what we sensible people might think. Bible quoters are always bigots.

Thanks a lot. This whole tangent started because I quoted Jesus' words* about the importance of believing in him. I am not a bigot. If you think everyone who ever quotes the bible is a bigot then I think you might be an anti-Christian bigot yourself.

*Jesus' words as reported by John.*

*Specifically the John who may or may not be a disciple, an apostle, the same John who wrote Revelation or Jesus' gay lover.

*Attributed to John by some group of clergymen*
about or around 200 to 300 AD, give or take, I can't remember.

* Clergymen: They claim. [Paranoid]

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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I wonder if thete's anything to be said in being the Word of God to the world, rather than speaking it? Sort of like with the Incarnation. I know Jesus preached as well, but that was in the context of being the Word, and it was that being that gave him authority and credibility. Perhaps that's one problem with proof-texting; it's so often done in the context of being not the Word of God but rather a judgemental hateful arse.

[ 31. August 2017, 19:11: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17624 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ethne Alba
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# 5804

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.....nice turn of phrase right there at the end.

[ 31. August 2017, 19:16: Message edited by: Ethne Alba ]

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Wow, this discussion has gotten ugly! [Frown]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17994 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
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# 1468

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Twilight--

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Let's try backing a Buddhist against the wall about his religion while not allowing any words of Buddha in the debate. See how that works.

Well, they could imitate the Buddha's Flower Sermon, and simply hold up a flower. That's got to be the best sermon ever.
[Smile]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17994 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
It doesn't matter much what we sensible people might think. Bible quoters are always bigots.

Thanks a lot. This whole tangent started because I quoted Jesus' words* about the importance of believing in him.
And I question the interpretation that people need to believe in him to be "saved". I think it goes against the message he preached.
quote:

I am not a bigot. If you think everyone who ever quotes the bible is a bigot then I think you might be an anti-Christian bigot yourself.

This is not what anyone said. not even close. Some of us think things should be taught in context, not just grabbed randomly to fit whatever a person is trying to prove.
quote:

*Jesus' words as reported by John.*

*Specifically the John who may or may not be a disciple, an apostle, the same John who wrote Revelation or Jesus' gay lover.

*Attributed to John by some group of clergymen*
about or around 200 to 300 AD, give or take, I can't remember.

* Clergymen: They claim. [Paranoid]

Could have been formatted better, but still kinda funny.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16963 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
[qb] Bible quoters are always bigots.

quote:

I am not a bigot. If you think everyone who ever quotes the bible is a bigot then I think you might be an anti-Christian bigot yourself.

This is not what anyone said. not even close.

Seems very close to me.
Posts: 6691 | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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I am saying in current public perception as displayed all over social media everyone thinks bible quoters are Bad. Quote at your peril.
Posts: 11082 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
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# 1468

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np--

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I am saying in current public perception as displayed all over social media everyone thinks bible quoters are Bad. Quote at your peril.

AFAICS, you didn't state that context. And you did state what Twilight quoted.

That's why I said "the discussion has gotten ugly".

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17994 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged



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