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Source: (consider it) Thread: Loose dresses to hide "dietary indulgences"
Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

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BBC article

Fuckwits want thin women or ample ones who know how to dress "properly". And said morons have no idea:

quote:
Ms Leone says she sent an email back to the orchestra, expressing her frustration and quitting the organisation.

Instead of apologising, she said they simply thanked her for her time and asked her to reread certain parts about dressing less revealingly, which it highlighted in red.

Is it 1917, not 2017?

[ 26. August 2017, 02:09: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]

Posts: 7309 | From: Albury, Australia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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Shit, they folded the orchestra over it? They must have been in dire straits before this, and this just put the nail in the coffin.

Sounds like it couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of folks.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

Posts: 62798 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

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What kind of piece of crap orchestra would rather hire an attractive woman than one that can sing?
I can see them telling Pavarotti "sorry mate - we're looking for someone fit-looking".

But apparently all their "front line performing artists" are women, so they wouldn't hire him anyway, regardless of his waistline.

There aren't any misconstrued allegations - the press has construed the complaints perfectly correctly. The management of the orchestra are a bunch of asshats.

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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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What twerps! [Mad]

The wording of the e-mails seems rather mixed: the orchestra mgmt. talks both about being slim and fit and about avoiding revealing clothing. I lean towards presuming that they just don't want curves revealed; but the "slim and fit" singers can more or less wear what they want, 'cause people will want to look at *them*.

Well, if they're trying to sell a certain sexual appearance, don't they know that a lot of people *like* women's curves???

And "boutique orchestra"? How prissy.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17451 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

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Nothing more sexy than an ample woman playing the cello.

[ 26. August 2017, 09:40: Message edited by: rolyn ]

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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Singers with powerful voices have unusually large chest cavities; this is why their lungs can expand much more than the average.

In the 1940s, before the days of television, there was a woman singer named Kate Smith who was frequently heard on the radio. She was extremely good. She was also very large; she couldn't have produced those notes if she hadn't been.

The only way very slim women can produce powerful sounds is if their voices are amplified. The difference can be heard.

Moo

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Posts: 20057 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Viola
Administrator
# 20

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Shit, they folded the orchestra over it? They must have been in dire straits before this, and this just put the nail in the coffin.
.

Musicians of my acquaintance who've worked for them would agree with you on that. Or at least confirm that this wasn't the first instance of shaming - just the one that hit the headlines.

--------------------
"If ye love me, keep my commandments" John 14:15

"Commandment number one: shut the hell up." Erin Etheredge 1971-2010

Posts: 4343 | From: West of England | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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I agree. I go to concerts to hear great music. There are plenty of examples of amazing singers of all shapes and sizes.

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The opinions expressed above are transitory emotional responses and do not necessarily reflect the considered views of the author.

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Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

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What the hell is a "boutique orchestra"? I'd say one owned by the Kardashian clan, except those gals have curves and major bootie. Sounds like this management has been living under a rock since the days of Twiggy.

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

Posts: 21237 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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If they don't have any fat ladies singing, how will anyone know when it's over?
[Two face]

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Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

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Viola
Administrator
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
What the hell is a "boutique orchestra"? I'd say one owned by the Kardashian clan, except those gals have curves and major bootie. Sounds like this management has been living under a rock since the days of Twiggy.

They're an agency who hire out groups of musicians. A bit more about them in Musical Toronto and Slipped Disc

I doubt they'll be missed - the musicians are still out there.

--------------------
"If ye love me, keep my commandments" John 14:15

"Commandment number one: shut the hell up." Erin Etheredge 1971-2010

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Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

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I read the further articles. Man, those people sound disgusting! "Delicate little flower" [Projectile]

I think they've milked their "charity" for all it's worth and are ready for greener pastures.

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881

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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Singers with powerful voices have unusually large chest cavities; this is why their lungs can expand much more than the average.

In the 1940s, before the days of television, there was a woman singer named Kate Smith who was frequently heard on the radio. She was extremely good. She was also very large; she couldn't have produced those notes if she hadn't been.

The only way very slim women can produce powerful sounds is if their voices are amplified. The difference can be heard.

Moo

Wow. You know that's all bullshit, right? I haven't seen that much manure about singing since I was behind the horse in the Triumphal Scene in Aida. Where did you study opera? At the Howdyfolkstheater in West Podunk?

It's physics: the chest cavity cannot be a resonator. All wind instruments consist of an air source (lungs, the pump on an organ), a vibrator (reeds, your vocal cords, a trumpeter's lips), and a resonator (the pharynx and mouth, an open tube of metal or wood or plastic). What people call "resonance" in the chest, or the sinuses, or wherever, is just sympathetic vibrations.

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

Posts: 5297 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

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Here's an article in the Huffington Post about theories on the matter. So as I see it, Moo just threw out there a long considered and still current theory among others. I only disagree with Moo's idea that slender people can't produce strong sound without amplification. As the article noted, Jose Carreras did fine with a smaller frame.

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
If they don't have any fat ladies singing, how will anyone know when it's over?
[Two face]

<<tophat-style phtssss!>>>

And what 'management' seriously refers to its own orchestral musicians as 'background wallpaper'?

'If you look good, we look good.' What??!

Whoever wrote this must have had a mental age of five. Or am I being unfair to five year olds?

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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169

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When Victoria Leone, one of the vocalists, responded to the initial email she addressed it to "Andrew (or whomever penned this email)".

From the overuse of slash marks in the initial email, and the subsequent overuse of slash marks in the pissy, self-pitying response, I would guess that the source of all this is one person named Andrew, who is evidently a douche. Probably now an unemployed douche.

Posts: 2744 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008  |  IP: Logged
Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

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The best kind.

--------------------
"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047

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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:


It's physics: the chest cavity cannot be a resonator. All wind instruments consist of an air source (lungs, the pump on an organ), a vibrator (reeds, your vocal cords, a trumpeter's lips), and a resonator (the pharynx and mouth, an open tube of metal or wood or plastic). What people call "resonance" in the chest, or the sinuses, or wherever, is just sympathetic vibrations.

I can't speak knowledgably to the physics (I'm a physicist but my knowledge of audio-bio-physics is pretty limited), but I do know that as a long time singer I have a noticeably enlarged chest cavity to the point where, though I am not a thin man, my ribs are very prominent. My suspicion, though, is that the large chest is a consequence of me projecting at volume over a prolonged period, rather than being the cause of me being able to. I would expect that any singer who regularly pushes the edge of their volume range would see the same result. It is, of course, fairly obviously distinct from being plus-sized in general.
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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
When Victoria Leone, one of the vocalists, responded to the initial email she addressed it to "Andrew (or whomever penned this email)".

From the overuse of slash marks in the initial email, and the subsequent overuse of slash marks in the pissy, self-pitying response, I would guess that the source of all this is one person named Andrew, who is evidently a douche. Probably now an unemployed douche.

Andrew also overuses, "kindly," and he seems to think "fit," automatically comes before "slim," even when, without blood tests, x-rays or a medical exam, he has no way of knowing if the singers are fit or not.

Yes, Andrew is quite prissy. He deserves something really awful to happen to him, such as getting a letter from Soror Magna

"Dietary indulgences." [Disappointed]

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Pangolin Guerre
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Actually, I am, sadly, not surprised. In no way do I impugn the talents of those who fall into this category, but if you look at the marketing of 'younger' classical musicians and singers, there is a definite awareness of their physical attractiveness, whether Anna Sophie von Mutter, Joshua Bell, Jan Lisiecki, Janine Jansen, etc., etc. I think that, in part, the fact that we live in a media-saturated age in which surface trumps interior, audiences are much less likely to accept a Mimi weighing over ~54kg/130lbs. Not entirely a bad thing in itself, is the shift in opera staging (direction and design) reflecting cinema. Atom Egoyan, Francois Girard, Werner Herzog, Franco Zeffirelli, and many others have directed opera - it leaves its mark. It's a good thing, in that I thank that it has really revitalised staging; bad, in that it imports or reinforces certain prejudices.

To answer a question above, it's 2017 only on some calendars.

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Ricardus
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A friend of mine who sings at wedding receptions, dealing directly with the happy couples rather than through an agency, says the process goes something like this:

Happy couple beforehand: Can you sing us the Ave Maria please, we like that one.

Singer: Which one?

Happy couple: ???????

Singer: Well, perhaps you'd like to look on YouTube just to make sure we're both thinking about the same piece.

[No response on this point ever. Comes the happy day:]

Pianist: (Opening bars of Schubert)

Singer: (Opens mouth)

Happy couple and guests: GABBLE GABBLE GABBLE GABBLE GABBLE GABBLE GABBLE GABBLE GABBLE GABBLE GABBLE GABBLE GABBLE GABBLE GABBLE GABBLE GABBLE GABBLE GABBLE GABBLE GABBLE GABBLE

Don't get me wrong, the managers of this 'boutique' orchestra are grade A dickheads, but if their clientele are anything like my friend's experience, it does make commercial sense to care more about appearance than musical talent.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna
It's physics: the chest cavity cannot be a resonator.

I did not say the chest cavity could be a resonator. I said that the larger it is, the more space there is for the lungs to expand and produce a more powerful or prolonged sound.

Moo

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See you later, alligator.

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Soror Magna
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Funny how no one ever suggests that bigger flute players are louder.

Singers don't have to be any particular size to sing well, but that is no reason to fat-shame anyone.

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Funny how no one ever suggests that bigger flute players are louder.

Probably because loudness of flute playing is not an issue. Loudness of singing is.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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Sure it is. You spend plenty of time learning to play different dynamic levels on a flute, as you do with any instrument that has a dynamic range. As with all wind instruments, you have to learn to play softly without going flat and loudly without going sharp. The loudness of flute playing is very much an issue when you're playing a concerto -- you gotta be heard over the orchestra.

Edited to add: size doesn't make a big difference in flute players -- there are plenty of small women who play flute and play it well.

[ 27. August 2017, 02:39: Message edited by: RuthW ]

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Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
...The only way very slim women can produce powerful sounds is if their voices are amplified. The difference can be heard.

Technique has something to do with it, too; a properly placed voice will carry perfectly well without amplification.

Still, there is a correlation between size (not necessarily fat) and voice. There are reasons that real Wagnerians are large.

I'm on the small and slender side, but when I was singing professionally, my chest was proportionately large. My neck size was, as well, from thickening with the muscle needed to sing opera.

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I'm not dead yet.

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Palimpsest
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# 16772

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It's also like lighting in that it's adaptive.
Seattle opera a few years back, cast some of their favorite wagnerian singers in a light opera. It worked pretty well until there was a trio with two wagnerians and one other singer who had to work to keep up and they had to keep it down.

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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:


Don't get me wrong, the managers of this 'boutique' orchestra are grade A dickheads, but if their clientele are anything like my friend's experience, it does make commercial sense to care more about appearance than musical talent.

It's a good point. Although we're often told how political correctness and liberal toleration of difference and diversity has ruined the world, there has in other directions been a very steady trend towards physical perfection, and in that way an increasing implication that physical imperfection of any kind is unacceptable.

We whiten, veneer and straighten otherwise entirely presentable, serviceable and healthy teeth. We fix our boobs and bums, not because we have medical problems but because we fancy being a few inches bigger or smaller, at least until the next trend kicks in. In an age where people resign from political parties because of an 'accidental' racist remark; we also put dyes on our skin so we don't look as white as we actually really are. And beauty adverts terrify us with the idea that we might begin to look older than 25, and tell us very clearly that we mustn't look our age, if we are over 25. They don't tell us why; they just assume that it's so evidently undesirable who could disagree?

And what place will people with disabilities, serious medical issues, and disfigurements find in a world increasingly moving towards a normative value of 'perfect'?

Reminds me of the recent news such as this where it seems that the 'it's political correctness gone mad' brigade can still sleep easy in their beds.

--------------------
Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!

Posts: 9904 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Og, King of Bashan

Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562

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quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
Actually, I am, sadly, not surprised. In no way do I impugn the talents of those who fall into this category, but if you look at the marketing of 'younger' classical musicians and singers, there is a definite awareness of their physical attractiveness, whether Anna Sophie von Mutter, Joshua Bell, Jan Lisiecki, Janine Jansen, etc., etc. I think that, in part, the fact that we live in a media-saturated age in which surface trumps interior, audiences are much less likely to accept a Mimi weighing over ~54kg/130lbs. Not entirely a bad thing in itself, is the shift in opera staging (direction and design) reflecting cinema. Atom Egoyan, Francois Girard, Werner Herzog, Franco Zeffirelli, and many others have directed opera - it leaves its mark. It's a good thing, in that I thank that it has really revitalised staging; bad, in that it imports or reinforces certain prejudices.

To answer a question above, it's 2017 only on some calendars.

This is a far better stated and supported version of what I thought upon seeing this story as well. I'm only an occasional listener to classical music, but even in my occasional perusals of classical records on Spotify, it has been abundantly clear that looks are part of the marketing strategy.

Abd it isn't just classical music. It happens in law firms, retail shops, just about everywhere. A local magazine runs an annual report on the best doctors in town, and let me tell you, the advertisements for the dental offices in that issue feature more attractive hygienists than you can shake a stick at.

The directors of this orchestra are definitely assholes. But this kind of practice is pretty outrageously standard, date on the calendar notwithstanding.

--------------------
"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

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