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Source: (consider it) Thread: Cover your eyes, Jonny!
mr cheesy
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There are times when I really hate having breath, being alive and listening to idiot Christians* pontificating on live national radio.

This morning, just before 8am, two parents arrived on the flagship British radio news programme to explain to the nation about how their little son had been so abused at school that they were forced to remove him, care for him at home and take legal action against the school.

What was the terrible thing that happened to their six year old? What was this terror that emotionally scarred the poor chap? Who was to blame for this outrage?

According to the parents in this short radio interview, their boy had seen another child in the school in a skirt. One day the child turned up in trousers, another day they turned up in a skirt (both, note, were school uniform). Which confused the poor blighter in question to the extent that the parents had to take immediate action.

Why, asked the parent, should my child have to put up with this?

The interviewer, who seemed very calm given the obvious idiocy in front of her, asked some searching questions. What about girls wearing trousers (apparently that's not important)? What about trans children experiencing years of abuse leading to regular self-harm and suicide (apparently doesn't happen)?

Girls are girls and boys are boys said the Father.

Because. Because obviously a six year old notices the clothing that other six year olds are wearing to the extent of causing existential crisis. Because obviously a boy wearing a skirt is a sign of something-or-other and is a political outrage inflicted on small children. Because obviously something is being said about a boy who wears a skirt which is different to a girl who wears trousers. Because clearly there is something very... I don't know.. non-masculine about wearing a piece of cloth which opens around the legs rather than which covers the legs. Even though a very large percentage of men around the world do not wear trousers.

Maybe this kid is transgender. Maybe this kid is just a six year old experimenting with clothing choices.

Really, wtf has it got to do with you?

What utter dipshits.

*to be fair, they didn't actually say that they were Christians. But I'd bet all the veg in my allotment that they were.

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arse

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mr cheesy
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Version of the story in the Telegraph

Surprise! It turns out they're Christians!

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arse

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anoesis
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I'd bet all the veg on my allotment, if I had one, that the kid wasn't the tiniest bit traumatised or scarred - at least initially. He's likely to have just been curious, and turned to his parents for an explanation. I can attest, personally, to the fact that the kind of pandemonium they've apparently unleashed in response to his curiosity, will reduce the likelihood of his making that mistake again.

Also, I realise it's beside the point, but all school uniforms, in all co-ed schools everywhere, should just be shorts in summer, trousers in winter, for everyone, end of. Then there's no whingeing about how girls can choose, but boys can't, blah, blah, no uproar from concerned community members about the shortness of skirts, no opportunity for boys to complain that the girls skirts are dragging their minds away from their study, no room for the girls themselves to rebel by unpicking a few stitches from the kick-split each night until you can see all the way to glory... -shorts for everyone. Everyone looks equally horrible in shorts, especially school uniform shorts.

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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --

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L'organist
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This story has me really confused.

The parents are claiming they try to live by "biblical" values and that is their justification to objecting about a 6 year-old boy sometimes wearing a dress to school.

So how do they feel that traditional clergy wear skirts (cassocks) and that Our Lord wore what could be described as a dress.

OK, so that's just me being facetious - or is it?

Beyond all this case-by-case nonsense there is a serious issue: could it be that the relentless "girlification" of female children has something to do with the number of girls reporting they feel they are really boys? (And perhaps vice versa?)

When I was growing up many girls had short hair, played rough-and-tumble games and so wore trousers for a fair amount of time. I had one cousin who refused to answer to anything but Jonathan or Jonny for over 2 years, refused to wear dresses (once tore and bit her way out of one!) and who spent most of her time dressed in a cowboy outfit; nobody suggested she was abnormal or "gender confused" and she gradually grew up to accept being female, getting married, having children, etc, etc, etc. Now, little girls all have long hair, wear skirts or dresses and are thus hampered if they want to, say, use a climbing frame or similar.

Rather than getting excited about children being "transgender" or not, might not our time be better spent looking at why we insist (correctly) that life should - as far as possible - be gender neutral yet accept girl children being treated as living, breathing Disney princesses.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Helen-Eva
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I have a distant family member who seems to spend half his time on the internet looking for stories about transgender or gender neutral (or boys wearing skirts or girls being offered toys that are not pink) purely in order to post about how outraged he is by it all. He has no known religious affiliation - in fact is probably quite militantly atheist. I'm really not getting why this stuff gets to some people so badly. Why do people care so much about what gender people they've never met and never will meet are or permit their kids to be?? Genuine question.

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I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.

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anoesis
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
This story has me really confused.

The parents are claiming they try to live by "biblical" values and that is their justification to objecting about a 6 year-old boy sometimes wearing a dress to school.

So how do they feel that traditional clergy wear skirts (cassocks) and that Our Lord wore what could be described as a dress.

OK, so that's just me being facetious - or is it?

No - in fact, someone has already agreed with you!

NewsThump story

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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --

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Uncle Pete

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Trousers. skirts. Who gives a fuck? Does the traumatised child know for a fact that it is a boy or girl? 6 years old can be androgynous.

Or has he actually done some mutual genitals investigation with the said child? Or just asked?

We, of course, need to know. NOT. None of our fucking business, or anyone else's.

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Even more so than I was before

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Jane R
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That's different; cassocks are dresses *for men*.

You've heard of gender agreement in other languages. Most of them do it on pronouns and/or adjectives, but English has *irregular nouns* which also exhibit this property.

For example:

[Toy for girl] = Doll / [Toy for boy] = Action figure.

And here are a few pictures of
men in skirts.

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Tortuf
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I'll just take it as a given that this did not happen in Scotland.

My oldest showed up at the house for a visit yesterday wearing a kilt. He told me it was so his mom would not ask him to do any gardening that involved bending over.

I'm going kilt shopping today.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
I'd bet all the veg on my allotment, if I had one, that the kid wasn't the tiniest bit traumatised or scarred - at least initially. He's likely to have just been curious, and turned to his parents for an explanation. I can attest, personally, to the fact that the kind of pandemonium they've apparently unleashed in response to his curiosity, will reduce the likelihood of his making that mistake again.

My first thought was also to doubt that it even happened, but on reflection thinking of young children I know in similar situations, I can believe that this child might have made a fuss - but I struggle to believe it would be any more serious than a six-year old who got upset about someone else's eraser, who was jealous about the football on someone else's bag or who didn't like being told off because he made fun of the woolly fringe around the hood of someone else's coat.

The only difference between this alleged incident and these other examples is that the parents immediately decided that this was an example of anti-Christian political correct pro-trans schooling-gone-mad and escalated it to a ridiculous level.

quote:
Also, I realise it's beside the point, but all school uniforms, in all co-ed schools everywhere, should just be shorts in summer, trousers in winter, for everyone, end of. Then there's no whingeing about how girls can choose, but boys can't, blah, blah, no uproar from concerned community members about the shortness of skirts, no opportunity for boys to complain that the girls skirts are dragging their minds away from their study, no room for the girls themselves to rebel by unpicking a few stitches from the kick-split each night until you can see all the way to glory... -shorts for everyone. Everyone looks equally horrible in shorts, especially school uniform shorts.
I think there is a general elephant-in-the-room problem in the UK regarding uniform. Almost no schools have a more relaxed policy, and almost everyone in the state pre-16 system seems to think that being ultra-strict about uniform standards has an impact on the discipline in the school (even to the extent of excluding pupils wearing the wrong type of grey trousers the other day).

This gets to bonkers levels when parents are supposed to pay £lots for very low quality clothing that is a stupid colour and which almost nobody enjoys wearing.

I've heard the general logic is to identify and distinguish students from particular schools and to prevent bullying about expensive trainers of children from poorer backgrounds. But that argument doesn't seem to me to hold any water, given it is fairly obvious to everyone who is living in a home where clothing is not regularly washed or where parents are not able to afford bigger/smaller blazers.

Quite why everyone continues with this insanity when there are nearby examples of whole countries that seem to manage perfectly well without mandatory dress codes for students, I have no idea.

--

But I wouldn't support your idea here. There may indeed be good reasons to cover legs (for example embarrassment about eczema) and tight shorts or trousers which show off the genitals are not necessarily the best idea in a school setting. The problem is not really about trousers vs shorts vs skirts as much as the way that these things are worn and the things that the school management deem necessary to enforce.

There may indeed be cause to be concerned about the over-sexual clothing that a particular child chooses to wear, but I'm doubting that anyone anywhere has ever been sexually attracted by the wrong-colour-grey trousers.

The simplest solution it seems to me is to have a uniform that applies to everyone, if a uniform is absolutely necessary at all. And if one has to - which I'm not even sure junior schools have the powers to insist upon anyway - then the items of clothing on the list should be able to be worn by anyone.

[ 11. September 2017, 11:22: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

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arse

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
Trousers. skirts. Who gives a fuck? Does the traumatised child know for a fact that it is a boy or girl? 6 years old can be androgynous.

Or has he actually done some mutual genitals investigation with the said child? Or just asked?

We, of course, need to know. NOT. None of our fucking business, or anyone else's.

To be fair, I really don't believe there is anything to lay at the door of any of the six-year olds in this story.

Partly because these are power games being played by adults via their children, partly because I don't really believe that six year olds are really so self-aware to be making judgements about gender-norms and largely because they're six years old and are quite capable of making a huge fuss about something one day and then being totally fine with it the next.

[ 11. September 2017, 11:29: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

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arse

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
I'll just take it as a given that this did not happen in Scotland.

My oldest showed up at the house for a visit yesterday wearing a kilt. He told me it was so his mom would not ask him to do any gardening that involved bending over.

I'm going kilt shopping today.

Oddly enough, my (admittedly brief and unscientific) survey of school uniforms in Scotland suggests that it is the girls who are expected to wear checked tartan-ish dresses and the boys who are expected to wear black or grey trousers.

It'd be interesting if we could find a school where a clan kilt was an acceptable part of the uniform for any of the students at any state school, I'm guessing it isn't.

But your comment also reminded me of a school I once visited (in England) which had an uber-strict uniform code, but where boys and girls were sitting in the classroom in military fatigues.

It appears that the army cadet force (of which some of the students were members and mysteriously were allowed to wear the uniform during lessons) was rather more gender-neutral than the school.

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arse

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
This story has me really confused.

The parents are claiming they try to live by "biblical" values and that is their justification to objecting about a 6 year-old boy sometimes wearing a dress to school.

So how do they feel that traditional clergy wear skirts (cassocks) and that Our Lord wore what could be described as a dress.

OK, so that's just me being facetious - or is it?

No - in fact, someone has already agreed with you!

NewsThump story

Damn right. Mustn't have Biblical principles clashing with religious ones.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Doc Tor
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The obvious solution is for the school to provide the uniform of an orange boilersuit for each pupil. Hard wearing and practical!

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Forward the New Republic

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Helen-Eva:
I have a distant family member who seems to spend half his time on the internet looking for stories about transgender or gender neutral (or boys wearing skirts or girls being offered toys that are not pink) purely in order to post about how outraged he is by it all. He has no known religious affiliation - in fact is probably quite militantly atheist. I'm really not getting why this stuff gets to some people so badly. Why do people care so much about what gender people they've never met and never will meet are or permit their kids to be?? Genuine question.

It's a good question. I worked in gender studies for a long time, and there are various answers, depending on your background assumptions.

Many feminists would argue that gender historically was enmeshed in patriarchal society, hence homophobia and misogyny went together. So gender traits came to seem eternal and absolute, and it is a big shock for some people to see change.

Also, you can cite the effects of religious persecution, again homophobia and misogyny come to mind. I suppose you could say that evangelicals tend to be the worst offenders here.

Maybe also there is a psychological need for stability in relation to sex/gender; in other words, we get disturbed if things change too much.

Now I am running out of breath, but there are other frameworks. Enough for now.

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the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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mr cheesy
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The BBC news website now has the story too.

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arse

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Eigon
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This story reminded me of a private school in London, run by someone fairly eccentric, just after the Second World War, who insisted on what we would now call a gender neutral uniform. He wanted to treat all the children the same, so he made sure they all had the same uniform, which involved rust coloured knickerbockers and yellow sweaters. I looked it up - it still exists and is called Hill House School. Apparently Prince Charles went there!

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Never cruel nor cowardly.
Never give up, never give in.
The Doctor's Promise

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quetzalcoatl
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I think this couple have done it before, with another trans kid. Why do people like this think the world revolves around them? This is narcissism with a nasty edge, be like us, or we will bully you.

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the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Eigon:
This story reminded me of a private school in London, run by someone fairly eccentric, just after the Second World War, who insisted on what we would now call a gender neutral uniform. He wanted to treat all the children the same, so he made sure they all had the same uniform, which involved rust coloured knickerbockers and yellow sweaters. I looked it up - it still exists and is called Hill House School. Apparently Prince Charles went there!

I remember sitting on the 94 bus as it trundled alongside Hyde Park and feeling sorry for the kids from this school who were having to run about in the drizzle.
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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The obvious solution is for the school to provide the uniform of an orange boilersuit for each pupil. Hard wearing and practical!

Well, didn't all workers in Mao's China wear much the same clothing: not only genderless but supposedly classless.
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Ethne Alba
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Share our Faith....Bitch about gender...Show ignorance of basic medical facts...

Ye Gods......
[Roll Eyes]

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Helen-Eva:
I'm really not getting why this stuff gets to some people so badly. Why do people care so much about what gender people they've never met and never will meet are or permit their kids to be??

Yes, I can't see what the problem is either ... as has been stated, it may well be because change troubles their (possibly frail) sense of security.
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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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The threshold for lawsuits is appallingly low in most places. Can we include a legal system in the hell call which makes it far to easy to do crap like this? You think or feel something, make a list of your "facts", take it to a court register person who stamps it with some official looking stamp, pay the fee (here $35, about £20) and then hand it to whomever you want to sue. It makes good news, outrage and for discussions on internet forums.

None of which touches the real question, which Uncle Pete helpfully asked.

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The obvious solution is for the school to provide the uniform of an orange boilersuit for each pupil. Hard wearing and practical!

Well, didn't all workers in Mao's China wear much the same clothing: not only genderless but supposedly classless.
Yes. How we dress expresses our class and our aspirations of class.

My kids have suffered thirteen years of jumpers, shoes, ties, blazers and skirts of various lengths and shades, forced on them by people who purport to believe that a uniform helps them learn. Yet at their respective universities, where they are supposedly becoming experts in their chosen fields, they can wear whatever the hell they want, and somehow, magically, a uniform is superfluous.

I've had jobs where I've had to wear a jacket and tie, and yet the most technically demanding and cerebral work I've done has been mostly sitting in exactly this seat, in my dressing gown. A boilersuit (adult size, £20 or so) is as uniform as you can get, and because even the most bog-standard of comps attempts to emulate private schools, parents have to shell out hundreds or risk their kids getting turned away at the gates or put in isolation.

It's all bollocks really.

[ 11. September 2017, 15:32: Message edited by: Doc Tor ]

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Forward the New Republic

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sabine
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I just love <sarcasm> the way adults involve children in their petty, bigoted tactics.

Use the child as a pawn, and the result just may be not to teach a so-called "faith" stance, but to teach how to manipulate and/or stir up trouble generally.

Lovely lessons <again, sarcasm>.

sabine

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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Yes, I can't see what the problem is either ... as has been stated, it may well be because change troubles their (possibly frail) sense of security.

The case is being pushed by the Christian Legal Centre/Christian Concern.

Those with ears to hear know what this means.

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arse

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
no uproar from concerned community members about the shortness of skirts, no opportunity for boys to complain that the girls skirts are dragging their minds away from their study, no room for the girls themselves to rebel by unpicking a few stitches from the kick-split each night until you can see all the way to glory...

The problem isn't the skirt, but the way society sexualises women.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Yes, I can't see what the problem is either ... as has been stated, it may well be because change troubles their (possibly frail) sense of security.

The case is being pushed by the Christian Legal Centre/Christian Concern.

Those with ears to hear know what this means.

It means they're going to lose, thank God. The CLC must have literally the worst, stupidest lawyers in the country.

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Forward the New Republic

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Jane R
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Doc Tor:
quote:
A boilersuit (adult size, £20 or so) is as uniform as you can get...
Here we go. Problem solved. This company says it can provide personalised one(sie)s too, so the schools can even have their logos printed on them.

Has the added advantage of making hoodies uncool.

<doublechecks website> I see it's an American company... but I'm sure there is a British firm that can provide them too.

[ 11. September 2017, 15:54: Message edited by: Jane R ]

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Because even the most bog-standard of comps attempts to emulate private schools, parents have to shell out hundreds or risk their kids getting turned away at the gates or put in isolation.

It's all bollocks really.

Or asserting power.

My wife - a former primary-school teacher - said that politicians who believed that all schoolkids should wear uniform should be forced to do up the ties for 30 5-year-olds after their PE class.

[ 11. September 2017, 15:56: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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I wonder why boy to girl seems to cause a lot of anxiety, but girl to boy doesn't. Apparently, in the radio interview this couple were asked if they were worried about girls wearing trousers, and apparently not.

One traditional reply has been that masculinity is fragile, and any divergence is treated with horror, whereas tomboys have been OK for a long time.

I don't know.

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
It means they're going to lose, thank God. The CLC must have literally the worst, stupidest lawyers in the country.

The point is never about winning/losing cases. I'm sure they don't really give a monkeys if they win this case.

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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I wonder why boy to girl seems to cause a lot of anxiety, but girl to boy doesn't. Apparently, in the radio interview this couple were asked if they were worried about girls wearing trousers, and apparently not.

That wouldn't have been true in the 50s/60s, when a lot of evangelical Christians became quite apoplectic about "girls wearing male attire" - especially jeans.

[ 11. September 2017, 15:59: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I wonder why boy to girl seems to cause a lot of anxiety, but girl to boy doesn't. Apparently, in the radio interview this couple were asked if they were worried about girls wearing trousers, and apparently not.

That wouldn't have been true in the 50s/60s, when a lot of evangelical Christians became quite apoplectic about "girls wearing male attire" - especially jeans.
Yes, good point, and I think women are still required to wear skirts/dresses in some kinds of employment. And notoriously, high heels.

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Jane R
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# 331

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It's a status thing, with a side order of misogyny. Trans man: obviously the poor dear is suffering from penis envy and attempting to emulate Real Men. Does not affect the Real Men because they only date girls and 'girls masquerading as boys' are of no interest to them. Trans woman: traitor to her 'real' sex, and what if a Real Man dates her by mistake? The horror!

[ 11. September 2017, 16:02: Message edited by: Jane R ]

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
It's a status thing, with a side order of misogyny. Trans man: obviously the poor dear is suffering from penis envy and attempting to emulate Real Men. Does not affect the Real Men because they only date girls and 'girls masquerading as boys' are of no interest to them. Trans woman: traitor to her 'real' sex, and what if a Real Man dates her by mistake? The horror!

Yes, although I remember that Rachael Padman, one of the early trans women (some time in the 1970s), apart from being involved in a controversy over a Cambridge women's only college, where some people objected to her being a Fellow (hello, Germaine Greer), anyway, Rachael said that before her op, various men were keen on her. And also after her op.

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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That reminds me that Germaine made an interesting contribution to gender discussions, by saying that real women have hairy smelly vaginas, and trans women don't. No, correct that, women have big hairy smelly vaginas.

I suppose schools working under Biblical principles, might have to check for this.

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Jane R
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# 331

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I am sure there are dozens, if not hundreds, of trans women out there who are happily finding True Love. I know several. I'm just speculating about the 'thought' processes of the bigots...

Germaine Greer does not speak for all women. She does not even speak for all feminists.

[ 11. September 2017, 16:17: Message edited by: Jane R ]

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
I am sure there are dozens, if not hundreds, of trans women out there who are happily finding True Love. I know several. I'm just speculating about the 'thought' processes of the bigots...

Germaine Greer does not speak for all women. She does not even speak for all feminists.

Definitely not. She has been labelled a terf for this, but I guess she is now keeping quiet about it, as the uproar was unpleasant.

The 'trans women are not real women' theme has quite a good half-life, though, see Jenni Murray, and others.

But I find the idea of a 'real woman' very interesting, ditto, a real man. Some kind of essentialism, I guess.

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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I notice that this egregious couple used the equally egregious phrases 'We as Christians...' and 'biblical values'.

My sympathies lie with the school, doubtless trying its best to be fair to every pupil, and to the children 'traumatised'. They are going to be 'educated' at home, but how will that help them to relate to other Real People in the Real World, including *Shock! Horror!* Girlz, Gayz, and Tranz?

Mind you, they could be completely mercenary in their outlook, and just suing in order to win loadsamoney...

IJ

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Pigwidgeon

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# 10192

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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Here we go. Problem solved. This company says it can provide personalised one(sie)s too, so the schools can even have their logos printed on them.

But these would create a bigger problem when the children go the restroom/bathroom/toilet (whatever you call it wherever you live). The girls would have more complications than the boys -- but what else is new?

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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It's interesting how the parents turn what is basically a private matter, into a public one. If their child is confused, then you can explain things, or reassure it, and so on.

But somehow this has to become another media circus. I just saw a photo of them on the BBC website, so they are front page news, and the case will drag on, there may be appeals and so on. Yay!

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rolyn
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# 16840

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.... Oh, and don't forget the crowdfunding [Yipee]

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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I suppose it's good publicity for Christianity. Hollow laughter.

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Schroedinger's cat

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# 64

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Version of the story in the Telegraph

Surprise! It turns out they're Christians!

I saw a link, and started reading and thought "I bet they are religious". And so it turned out.

And yes, I get annoyed because it is another story that reflect really badly on Christians. It makes me seem like a bigotted stupid arrogant prick.

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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Of course small children notice this stuff. I have overheard (from small children) in reference to my own children:

- Why is that boy riding a girl's bike?
- Why does that girl have short hair?
- Why is that boy wearing pink?
- Why is that girl riding a boy's bike?
- Why does that boy have long hair?
- Is that a boy or a girl?

And a whole bunch of similar comments that assume that people are divided into those with short hair that wear clothing with sports things on, and those with long hair that wear pink frilly things.

I imagine the small child in question might have correctly identified the gender of the child about 50% of the time. It's got short hair and is wearing a pink fleece. I'm confused.

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mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
# 15978

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Doc Tor wrote

quote:
My kids have suffered thirteen years of jumpers, shoes, ties, blazers and skirts of various lengths and shades, forced on them by people who purport to believe that a uniform helps them learn. Yet at their respective universities, where they are supposedly becoming experts in their chosen fields, they can wear whatever the hell they want, and somehow, magically, a uniform is superfluous.
I support school uniform - our kids' is boring and cheap, which is kind of the point - and I guess it's a symbol of conformity amongst an age group who are probably all having great difficulty coming to terms with personal autonomy, independence, individuality, discipline etc. Trying to protect kids from their own pride is quite a tricky thing.

Whereas when I lectured and someone might give me attitude, I might smile and say 'if you don't want to listen, I don't care - I get paid anyway and I don't mind if you fail'. Or even 'You're wasting your time and I advise you to withdraw'. Or 'talk again and either you or I are leaving the room - I really don't mind which'.

But these events were really, really rare - kids are more sensible, in the main, by 18. University is a really different case from school.

(Actually, thinking about it, these days my response might have to be 'you and I both know the university is going to give you a degree whatever you do, because it wants your fees and does not want its stats to look bad. Imagine the twats who already have that piece of paper, and the contempt with which employers already view the possessors of it. Don't you want to be able to show some knowledge at interview?')

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balaam

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# 4543

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If there is any trauma to the children involved I would put the blame on the parents and their attitude.

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leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
The BBC news website now has the story too.

And the dad isn't wearing a tie - outrageous.

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Tortuf
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# 3784

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I just had a chat with the complaining parents and we were able to come up with suitable school attire.
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