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Source: (consider it) Thread: Cover your eyes, Jonny!
Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
And the dad isn't wearing a tie - outrageous.

And the mother's hair is way too long and provocatively styled to boot! Has she no sense of modesty? [Devil]

[ 11. September 2017, 17:58: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]

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Uncle Pete

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One of my closest friends is transgendered. She completely identifies as a woman, although for medical reasons she has not had external sex assignment. The 8-1/2 year old grandson of other friends with whom we went to dinner blinked twice when he met her, but by the end of the meal they were best buds. His Grandad said that my friend made grandson's day. So again I say, who the fuck cares?

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Even more so than I was before

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quetzalcoatl
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Yes, that's what I would expect in a sympathetic and warm environment. Why would your kid get upset and confused, if you don't? On the other hand, if you do, for good Biblical reasons, of course, he or she probably will.

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mr cheesy
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I don't know how anyone else bring up their children, but I've always taught mine that people are different - that some people look and smell and talk differently to the way we do at home.

Since the days we volunteered at a soup kitchen when my child wasn't much older than six, we've made it clear that we don't walk away from people who are different but try to understand and listen to them.

The idea that "Christian values" are things that we fight to impose legally on other people who do things differently is an anathema to me. And, moreover, needs to be resisted even if it ends up losing friends.

Even if one really believes that wearing a skirt is somehow dangerous for a little boy*, it simply isn't loving to go onto national radio to explain that this boy's choice - which is quite possibly about experimentation and struggling to understand himself - is a sign of societal breakdown. That's not love, it is hatred.

It is hatred of a six year old who has done nothing wrong other than accidentally cut across societal norms that a white middle-class Christian family happens to - relatively accidentally - believe in.

I just hope he is protected from outcomes that might somehow make him think he is to blame for a child suddenly going missing from his class.

* I don't know the circumstances so I'm just using "he" out of ignorance. It might well be that "she" or some other term might be more appropriate - but I don't think that really changes what I'm saying here.

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arse

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Anselmina
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I hope, being a Biblical Christian, the mother wears her hat when she prays? What with it being a sign of her husband's authority over her and all. According to Saint Paul.

Even if she is one of the beret or headscarf brigade, I'm inclined to think it's Her Ladyship that wears the trousers in that household. Any interview I've seen so far, Mama Bear has been the most articulate about her doctrines, feelings, the unhappiness of her child, the wrongness of the other family, her rights to express her opinions based on religious belief (said with a knowing smirk) etc. While Dad pigeon-holes himself nicely as dum-dum fundamentalist with his 'a girl is a girl and a boy is a boy' approach. Mum is the one with all the twisty-turny, 'I'm just playing you at your own sinful liberal agenda' shit.

I wonder, too, how supportive of other people's religious beliefs she'd be if she had a little girl sent home from school for not wearing a headscarf, because all the Muslim mums didn't want their kid to witness this confusing and bad example?

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:


I wonder, too, how supportive of other people's religious beliefs she'd be if she had a little girl sent home from school for not wearing a headscarf, because all the Muslim mums didn't want their kid to witness this confusing and bad example?

None at all - because this kind of Evangelical seems to lack self-awareness that their argument might be applied to others in ways that they'd not approve of.

And obviously this would be an example of creeping sharia blah blah bloody blah.

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arse

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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Point of order: little Muslim girls (I've taught several) don't wear headscarves.

When they go through puberty, they (nominally) get to choose whether they do or not.

(eta, don't tend to wear headscarves. I'm sure there are some outliers. But none of Muslim girls I've taught ever did, until after they'd left Primary, and then some of them still didn't.)

[ 11. September 2017, 18:51: Message edited by: Doc Tor ]

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Forward the New Republic

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Point of order: little Muslim girls (I've taught several) don't wear headscarves.

When they go through puberty, they (nominally) get to choose whether they do or not.

(eta, don't tend to wear headscarves. I'm sure there are some outliers. But none of Muslim girls I've taught ever did, until after they'd left Primary, and then some of them still didn't.)

That's also what I'd understood, however it seems that it depends.

from the Church Times:

quote:
He spoke after a survey of 800 primary-school websites by The Sunday Times found that one fifth, including C of E schools, listed the hijab as part of the uniform. In Birmingham, 46 per cent of 72 primary schools surveyed included the hijab in their written online uniform policy, as did 36 per cent of those surveyed in Luton and 34 per cent of those surveyed in Tower Hamlets.
It is possible that the survey is biased, but I suspect there might well be some pressure from within some Muslim communities for girls to wear headscarfs early.

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arse

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Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
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I see a lot of primary aged girls wearing hijabs in London, in mixed communities where some girls do and others don't.

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Bishops Finger
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I bet their minister actually doesn't wear a dress/cassock/surplice etc. etc. when expounding his Biblical Values. I reckon he wears a suit, a sombre tie, and waves a floppy Bible around whilst fulminating.

Sorry, preaching.

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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I'm reasonably certain the kids' Primary did have a hijab on the official uniform guidelines, too. Just that none of the pupils wore it.

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Forward the New Republic

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Gwai
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My youngest child's school definitely includes at least a few very small humans wearing hijabs. I think my Kindergartener's school had at least one too. (Kindergartener's school does not have very many Muslims probably based on demography.)

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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
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If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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I have adult friends who dress up as superheroes.

I figure that what folk wear is none of my damn business. Clearly, more people need to be like me.

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Forward the New Republic

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Mark Wuntoo
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
I bet their minister actually doesn't wear a dress/cassock/surplice etc. etc. when expounding his Biblical Values. I reckon he wears a suit, a sombre tie, and waves a floppy Bible around whilst fulminating.

Sorry, preaching.

IJ

Or he wears jeans, a scruffy shirt, no tie and dances around the stage, sorry platform, waving a floppy Bible.
Prejudiced? Moi?

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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.

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Bishops Finger
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Well, I pictured someone rather more staid, but the Floppy Bible, yes, definitely.

[Devil]

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I have adult friends who dress up as superheroes.

I figure that what folk wear is none of my damn business. Clearly, more people need to be like me.

I've been trying (fairly unsuccessfully) to put myself into the mindset of these parents.

I suppose the root of the issue for them is that the child in question is trying to be something that they can't. So it would be like (according to them) a child coming to school looking like a chainsaw.

And I suppose the difference between me and them is not simply that adults have no damn right to tell schoolchildren how to dress. As I've said, I think there are clothing choices which are inappropriate for school-aged children and I can also believe that a child dressed as a superhero or a princess or a pair of swimming trunks or a chainsaw might not be in the best frame of mind for ordinary classroom learning.

The difference between me and them is about the danger of some child turning up at school wearing the "wrong" item of uniform. I can see that there might be an issue if someone turned up wearing only a school sock (which reminds me of when my child first went to nursery and repeatedly tried to take all clothing off - and was remarkably good at it so staff would turn around for a moment and then turn back and they'd be a naked small person with all the clothing on the floor..) but I can't see that wearing a uniform-policy-conforming skirt is the same as wearing a football kit, a superhero suit or whatever.

There might be good reasons why limits might be placed on certain children but not others regarding clothing (I was thinking that it probably wouldn't be a great idea in most situations for a non-Sikh child to wear a turban, for example) but I still can't see how that can possibly apply to a skirt.

So I conclude that whilst there might be reasons for a school giving directions about clothing, there are unlikely to be anything relating to the wearing of a skirt - whether it turns out that the child is trans or not.

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arse

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I can also believe that a child dressed as a superhero or a princess or a pair of swimming trunks or a chainsaw might not be in the best frame of mind for ordinary classroom learning.

I can't speak for lovers of superheros, bathing costumes, or chainsaws, but I do have a small child who is fond of dressing up in princess costumes. She climbs trees in princess costumes, goes down slides in princess costumes, and sits down at the table and works in princess costumes. I can't say that I've seen any difference in her frame of mind - she gets on with whatever she wants to do regardless of her clothing.

I wore a traditional uniform at school. I was glad of the uniform at the time, because I didn't want to feel judged on what I wore, and the uniform sidestepped all of that. (By the time I was a student at university, I had acquired enough confidence not to care about people's opinions on what I wore.) I also appreciated the aesthetic of rows of children all dressed the same.

I don't ever remember thinking that I was in a better frame of mind because of it.

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
[QUOTE]The difference between me and them is about the danger of some child turning up at school wearing the "wrong" item of uniform. I can see that there might be an issue if someone turned up wearing only a school sock

That depends on the climate, and on where the sock is worn.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Golden Key
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Re difficulty accepting change:

I think these parents handled their and/or their son's discomfort/fears in a stupid way--twice!
[Eek!]

I also think a lot of people have a lot of trouble accepting and coping with change. And when the easy accepters simply say "You're wrong/ evil/ stupid/ backwards/ not fit to be around", and don't acknowledge that many people (not just hateful ones) will have a problem with this change, they keep people from dealing with their thoughts/feelings, and push them towards resentment, and even hate.

And, for many people, gender is part of the foundation of life. Male, female, period. If someone takes a jack-hammer to that, they take a jack-hammer to the foundational people's life and understanding of reality. No wonder even the non-hateful ones fight it.

Think of some change in the world that drives you crazy, that you think is a mistake or even evil. Or think of a time when someone made some sort of important change, without consulting you.

That approach to changing society is more apt to create enemies than supporters.

I don't have kids, so I'm not in the middle of this. But I'm surprised at the comments here that everyone, obvs, understands transgender, and would have no trouble seeing kids dress as another gender.

If I had kids, I think I could give them reasonable explanations, encourage them to treat trans kids the same as everyone else, invite them over to dinner. But, given my background that I've explained at other times on other threads, I would also need to work on getting past an initial, visceral, interior reaction that something was off-key. (I've had to do this with other things. Lots of work, over a long time.)

I've been thinking about this for a while, and not just in the context of these silly parents. ISTM that, when feasible, it's more productive to listen to people and present them with other perspectives. Like the African-American guy who's helped 200+ Klansmen to quit. He's got their robes in his closet.

FWIW, YMMV.

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
It means they're going to lose, thank God. The CLC must have literally the worst, stupidest lawyers in the country.

The point is never about winning/losing cases. I'm sure they don't really give a monkeys if they win this case.
I think it's fairly clearly about losing. They're a pressure group who get donations by persuading people that Christians are discriminated against. If they started winning cases, that would prove that we aren't, at least not on a systemic level, inasmuch as it would show the law is actually on our side.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I can't speak for lovers of superheros, bathing costumes, or chainsaws, but I do have a small child who is fond of dressing up in princess costumes. She climbs trees in princess costumes, goes down slides in princess costumes, and sits down at the table and works in princess costumes. I can't say that I've seen any difference in her frame of mind - she gets on with whatever she wants to do regardless of her clothing.

Mmm. I think the argument is that these things are (often) tribal so having children wearing football kit or costumes may well cause upset or distraction - as much for other children as for themselves - and there may well be levels of discomfort felt by children of parents who can't afford the latest thing.

quote:
I wore a traditional uniform at school. I was glad of the uniform at the time, because I didn't want to feel judged on what I wore, and the uniform sidestepped all of that. (By the time I was a student at university, I had acquired enough confidence not to care about people's opinions on what I wore.) I also appreciated the aesthetic of rows of children all dressed the same.
I also wore a very strict uniform for the majority of my schooling. To be absolutely honest, I rarely thought about it until I reached 17 and then wished I'd chosen to continue my education at a different establishment, so it was a relief to go to university where blazers and itchy shirts were not daily expected wear.

But I do think times have changed and that having a child brings a whole new perspective on things. As parents, the whole uniform thing became a huge battle - we tried to conform, but found it incredibly hard to do so, particularly in later years trying to purchase uniform-conforming shoes. As a student, my child grew increasingly resentful of the petty-mindedness of the enforcement of the uniform policy and grew to develop a mantra that anything-is-better-than-this.

My child learned something about the discipline of educational work and learned that they could achieve more than they initially thought possible if they were single-minded. But I'm not really sure that the main factor in that self-awareness was the school discipline at the (various) schools attended, and latterly the whole package of uniform and pointless rules and cultural expectations seemed designed to suck out all of my child's individuality.

quote:
I don't ever remember thinking that I was in a better frame of mind because of it.
I think at best a uniform takes away a distraction to learning because everyone looks the same. But then these are kids - they're going to be distracted whatever they're wearing.

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arse

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:


I also think a lot of people have a lot of trouble accepting and coping with change. And when the easy accepters simply say "You're wrong/ evil/ stupid/ backwards/ not fit to be around", and don't acknowledge that many people (not just hateful ones) will have a problem with this change, they keep people from dealing with their thoughts/feelings, and push them towards resentment, and even hate.

And, for many people, gender is part of the foundation of life. Male, female, period. If someone takes a jack-hammer to that, they take a jack-hammer to the foundational people's life and understanding of reality. No wonder even the non-hateful ones fight it.

Yes, I accept change is difficult. And I accept that there may be some people who sincerely believe that somehow political correctness is encouraging six-year-olds to experiment with cross-dressing.

I can even believe that there might be some parents who think that they need to withdraw their child from a school because of the uniform policy. I don't like it, but that's their right in a free society.

But what I won't accept is that this somehow gives them a pass or makes the accusations leveled on national radio loving, nor that the only course of action available to them is to seek legal redress.

One can sincerely believe that some school policy is wrong without immediately reaching for legal writs.

quote:
Think of some change in the world that drives you crazy, that you think is a mistake or even evil. Or think of a time when someone made some sort of important change, without consulting you.

That approach to changing society is more apt to create enemies than supporters.

I don't have kids, so I'm not in the middle of this. But I'm surprised at the comments here that everyone, obvs, understands transgender, and would have no trouble seeing kids dress as another gender.

Well I have been a supportive parent who takes notice of what is happening with their child's schooling. As far as I'm aware this has never happened in any class my child attended (which perhaps indicates that if it was an issue, the school managed to keep it confidential).

But for reasons already explained, I don't believe that I would ever have taken the actions that these parents did when faced with a six year old in a skirt. It might have been a problem at 13, given my child attended a single-sex school at that age. Even if I had been enraged at the idea of the "wrong" student being allowed into the school at that age, I can't imagine any parent I've ever known thinking that they'd escalate it to everyone-hates-bible-believing-Christians-you-bastards comments in national press together with a threat of legal action.

I'm sure there are reasonable people who dislike other children's appearance and choices and so on and so on. But most of us live with the reality that other people are different and get on with it.

It takes a special kind of arrogance to believe that one has a unique right to not-be-offended by other people's clothing and that the law should protect you rather than the minority you are offended by.

quote:
If I had kids, I think I could give them reasonable explanations, encourage them to treat trans kids the same as everyone else, invite them over to dinner. But, given my background that I've explained at other times on other threads, I would also need to work on getting past an initial, visceral, interior reaction that something was off-key. (I've had to do this with other things. Lots of work, over a long time.)
That's fair. I'm sure many of us take a while to deal with our initial reactions when faced with someone who looks, smells or thinks differently. But again, surely that's what we want to teach our children - that we shouldn't make a whole song-and-dance based on our initial reactions.

quote:
I've been thinking about this for a while, and not just in the context of these silly parents. ISTM that, when feasible, it's more productive to listen to people and present them with other perspectives. Like the African-American guy who's helped 200+ Klansmen to quit. He's got their robes in his closet.

FWIW, YMMV.

This isn't entirely related, but this weeks episode of This American Life gave a thoughtful angle on a difficult issue. It's about a programme where a group of black students were recruited and placed in white majority schools with the deliberate intention to challenge racist attitudes.

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arse

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Golden Key
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mr cheesy--

FWIW: I did say, at the very beginning, that the parents handled this stupidly. I'll try to respond to the rest of your post in a few days.

Thanks for the heads-up about TAL. I missed it over the weekend. Sounds like a dangerous situation for the mentioned kids.
[Paranoid]

BTW, this is the guy I mentioned:

"How One Man Convinced 200 Ku Klux Klan Members To Give Up Their Robes" (NPR; audio, transcript, and highlights article).

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Mark Wuntoo
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Well, I pictured someone rather more staid, but the Floppy Bible, yes, definitely.

[Devil]

IJ

Having looked around I'm guessing that there is no pastor, that the church doesn't believe in them [Biased] [Biased]
But yes to the suits and ties?

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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.

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Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
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Outwith the years of optimal fertility, Nature doesn't give a gnat's fart about signalling sexual differentiation. Basic kit, requisite hormones and pheromones, species perpetuated, job done.

It amuses (as in occasionally appals) me to see how the social construct of gender is stamped on the infant and child. And to notice the effects of that lifelong impress as the old revert once more to asexuality.

The physical being and the cultural template seem to me such distinct phenomena that I cannot feel surprised or disturbed by discrepancies between the two. But it appears to be the case that to many people they both appear equally 'natural' - and therefore a mismatch arouses the visceral level of aversion at something 'wrong' probably programmed into us somewhere along the evolutionary path.

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Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
It means they're going to lose, thank God. The CLC must have literally the worst, stupidest lawyers in the country.

The point is never about winning/losing cases. I'm sure they don't really give a monkeys if they win this case.
I think it's fairly clearly about losing. They're a pressure group who get donations by persuading people that Christians are discriminated against. If they started winning cases, that would prove that we aren't, at least not on a systemic level, inasmuch as it would show the law is actually on our side.
Surely if they win a case, it proves that Christians are being discriminated against?!

I don't think they ever have. Mainly because, "We're Christians so we should automatically be excused from all the usual rules, regulations and laws" isn't an argument that courts accept.


Tubbs

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

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L'organist
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# 17338

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So we're all agreed: another potential own-goal for the Christian Legal Centre and Christian Concern - prop Mrs Andrea Minchiello-Williams, lay member of General Synod for the Diocese of Chichester.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
So we're all agreed: another potential own-goal for the Christian Legal Centre and Christian Concern - prop Mrs Andrea Minchiello-Williams, lay member of General Synod for the Diocese of Chichester.

Why do you think it is an own goal? I think it is a part of a very effective campaign of virtue signalling to other conservatives, nothing to do with winning court cases.

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arse

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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This is an interesting point, that Christians take up these apparently unwinnnable cases. Is it to demonstrate that Christians are persecuted, for the publicity, or to make a genuine point, for example, that trans gender is forbidden by the Bible? Or all of them, maybe.

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the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
This is an interesting point, that Christians take up these apparently unwinnnable cases. Is it to demonstrate that Christians are persecuted, for the publicity, or to make a genuine point, for example, that trans gender is forbidden by the Bible? Or all of them, maybe.

I think it is about building a particular narrative amongst Conservative Christians in general and Conservative Evangelicals in particular - which runs that secular society is against all-things-Christian and that ungodly actions are in the ascendancy.

The strange thing that I can't really understand is that Conservative Evangelicals are often against anything that smacks of the social gospel and more-or-less believe that the only thing that matters is the state of the eternal soul; and that any social activities can be justified if they lead to the good stuff (ie evangelism and teaching in the truth).

But if that's the case, why are they so obsessed with making a point about the ungodly society? Why does it matter if the society is moving away from Christian values?

Also, if they believe that God is omnipotent, why does it matter if they, individually, do things like this to stand up for biblical truth?

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arse

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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I can't help feeling that there are indeed some 'Christians' who actually want to be persecuted (or to seem to be persecuted), so as to prove to themselves that they are right, and everyone else wrong.

BTW, @Mark Wuntoo - the Floppy Bible is, of course, the One-And-Only-True-Word-Of-God, the King James Authorised Version...

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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Mark Wuntoo
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# 5673

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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:

BTW, @Mark Wuntoo - the Floppy Bible is, of course, the One-And-Only-True-Word-Of-God, the King James Authorised Version...

IJ

You are right if it's the church I suspect.
It might just be the NIV if I'm wrong.

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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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Often RSV ime.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
# 440

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
This is an interesting point, that Christians take up these apparently unwinnnable cases. Is it to demonstrate that Christians are persecuted, for the publicity, or to make a genuine point, for example, that trans gender is forbidden by the Bible? Or all of them, maybe.

High profile cases get publicity. Sympathetic reporting adds to the narrative that Christians are persecuted for doing every day, Christian stuff like praying or wearing a crucifix. This helps with fund-raising.

It also helps is that people get bored with news stories so when verdict comes in - and they lose - there's less noise.

I always feel sorry for the poor saps who get involved with them. A good lawyer should, IMO, tell a client whether or not they have a reasonable case. Looking at some of the employment cases, it’s been obvious from the first story they were likely to lose.

Tubbs

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
Or he wears jeans, a scruffy shirt, no tie and dances around the stage, sorry platform, waving a floppy Bible.
Prejudiced? Moi?

Floppy Bible?!? How dare you sir! Our Bibles are big, hard, firm... uh, what were we talking about again...?

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
High profile cases get publicity. Sympathetic reporting adds to the narrative that Christians are persecuted for doing every day, Christian stuff like praying or wearing a crucifix. This helps with fund-raising.

I don't think this is really about fund-raising. Christian Concern and the Christian Legal Centre have very small budgets and the lawyers work pro bono.

It's not a project to make or raise money, it's simply a crusade. An effort to get the message out.

quote:
It also helps is that people get bored with news stories so when verdict comes in - and they lose - there's less noise.

I always feel sorry for the poor saps who get involved with them. A good lawyer should, IMO, tell a client whether or not they have a reasonable case. Looking at some of the employment cases, it’s been obvious from the first story they were likely to lose.

Tubbs

I'd be very surprised if any of the clients ever were given the impression that they had a chance of winning.

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arse

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
The physical being and the cultural template seem to me such distinct phenomena that I cannot feel surprised or disturbed by discrepancies between the two. But it appears to be the case that to many people they both appear equally 'natural'

They are equally natural - cultural templates are just as much a product of evolution as physical appearance. Males and females (as well as all the other cultural and societal groupings) have had separate roles and expectations within society since before our species even existed. It's not like someone just made them up out of whole cloth one wet Wednesday afternoon in 6000BC.

For that matter, many other species have cultures that can be every bit as complex as our own. Apes and monkeys, of course, but also mole rats, meerkats, dolphins, ants, termites - any species that lives in large groups. Their societies work because each member of the herd/clan/flock/nest/etc. knows both what their role is and what everyone else's role is. Individuals who don't fit in or try to move themselves into other roles are very often not treated very well at all.

We may be far more advanced than even the smartest apes, but we are still animals and we still have millions of years of evolution screaming at us from our hindbrains whenever we see something "wrong" that might threaten the integrity and smooth functioning of our herd. It's going to take a lot longer than a decade or two to reverse that.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
The physical being and the cultural template seem to me such distinct phenomena that I cannot feel surprised or disturbed by discrepancies between the two. But it appears to be the case that to many people they both appear equally 'natural'

They are equally natural - cultural templates are just as much a product of evolution as physical appearance.
Parts of culture stem from nature. Skirts and highheels, not so much.


quote:
It's not like someone just made them up out of whole cloth one wet Wednesday afternoon in 6000BC.

Thought it was more like 4000BC and took about a week...

quote:

It's going to take a lot longer than a decade or two to reverse that.

It is less reversing and more like sorting out the nonsense first. And then stripping out the unnecessary.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Eliab
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# 9153

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quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
A good lawyer [...]

Hi there!

quote:
[...]should, IMO, tell a client whether or not they have a reasonable case.
Yes. Exactly right.

I had a client a while back (not a Christian) who was threatened with legal action for refusing service to a gay couple for religious reasons. I advised what the law was (don't do that) and I advised him what I could potentially say in his defence to distinguish his religious reasons for refusing service from those given in other decided cases, what the likely costs and damages might be, and what his other options were.

I'd have fought the case on his behalf if he'd decided he wanted to take the chance (personal views on the subject notwithstanding) and would have argued every point that I properly could, because that's my job as an advocate, but he wisely decided that a swift apology and token payment was the better option.

I don't say that it's absolutely impossible to advise potential clients honestly and in their own best interests AND at the same time to be on the look-out for willing martyrs who will run losing cases for a cause you are personally invested in, but it's certainly not a professional position I'd be comfortable with.

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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"

Richard Dawkins

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Ohher
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# 18607

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I do hope these poor put-upon faithful do not move to Scotland, or encounter Prince Charles (who, I understand, occasionally sports a kilt in his official, or perhaps unofficial, capacity). My grandfather Duncan, born in Thornleybank, Scotland, no doubt lies churning in his grave.

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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Often RSV ime.

I'm not sure anybody over here still uses the RSV. Maybe the United Methodists.

quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
I always feel sorry for the poor saps who get involved with them. A good lawyer should, IMO, tell a client whether or not they have a reasonable case. Looking at some of the employment cases, it’s been obvious from the first story they were likely to lose.

Don't feel bad. The lawyers are also religious saps who want publicity more than cases won. Over here we have societies (of whatever tax status) with lawyers on call who can willingly go and fight these quixotic battles.

Whether one thinks they are "good" lawyers is a matter of opinion, of course.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Lothlorien
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# 4927

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There are other posts about the mother's appearance here, but I note that she is wearing jeans in the photos I have seen. Surely she should wear a dress or skirt if she follows her logic through?

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Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Lothlorien:
There are other posts about the mother's appearance here, but I note that she is wearing jeans in the photos I have seen. Surely she should wear a dress or skirt if she follows her logic through?

Clearly her marriage is falling apart, and she's advertising.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Huia
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# 3473

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Maybe the real reason the boy was upset was because he wanted to wear a dress too. [Devil]

Huia

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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

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Mark Wuntoo
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# 5673

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quote:
Originally posted by Lothlorien:
There are other posts about the mother's appearance here, but I note that she is wearing jeans in the photos I have seen. Surely she should wear a dress or skirt if she follows her logic through?

In the photos I've seen she is wearing a short skirt that leaves little to the imagination. Doesn't she know the Scripture about not causing your brother to offend? [Biased] [Razz]

Fortunately it seems that the media frenzy has died down for the moment which is a good thing for the other family involved.
I would like to think that the couple who are protesting are ashamed at what they have done but I doubt it.

[ 13. September 2017, 07:24: Message edited by: Mark Wuntoo ]

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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.

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Adeodatus
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# 4992

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quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
Maybe the real reason the boy was upset was because he wanted to wear a dress too. [Devil]

Huia

I wouldn't be surprised. Many's the time I've strolled through Marks', envious of the clothing choices women have. Men's clothes are so dull, and...

... and I'm saying this in public, aren't I? [Hot and Hormonal]

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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Jane R
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# 331

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No need to be embarrassed, Adeodatus: you were just born too late. Things were different in the earlier Elizabethan age... though actually, quite a lot of the women's clothes in M&S are dull too. Acres and acres of black trousers and white shirts for work...

[ 13. September 2017, 09:43: Message edited by: Jane R ]

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Marvin--

Thanks for your great post that starts:

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
They are equally natural - cultural templates are just as much a product of evolution as physical appearance. Males and females (as well as all the other cultural and societal groupings) have had separate roles and expectations within society since before our species even existed. It's not like someone just made them up out of whole cloth one wet Wednesday afternoon in 6000BC.

I think people have "difference alarms"--stronger in some people than others. And we (and probably most living things) are wired to sort things we encounter into categories: e.g., eat, run from, mate with, kill, build with, other.

So, IMHO, when people are scared by differences, or put people into categories, it's what they're wired for. And they may not realize it. Or they may think that their perspectives are simply the way things are--and, among the people and situations they know, that may be true.

Maybe there's a way to acknowledge that and work with it? Both for those people, and others who think they're wrong.

FWIW, YMMV.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Point of order: little Muslim girls (I've taught several) don't wear headscarves.

When they go through puberty, they (nominally) get to choose whether they do or not.

(eta, don't tend to wear headscarves. I'm sure there are some outliers. But none of Muslim girls I've taught ever did, until after they'd left Primary, and then some of them still didn't.)

Certainly. The point I was making was that the parents in question are probably not interested in extending freedom of religious expression to anyone outside of their own circle, even while they attempt to utilise the principle for their own publicity purposes.

It was a while ago now, of course, and it was with reference to secondary schools; but I do remember very clearly rows and rows of smartly uniformed and headscarved young Muslim girls in most of the classrooms of the schools our theological college used for its schools modules. Sparkbrook, Handsworth, Lozells area. Black, and after that Asian, students were apparently the greater in number. And indeed there was, at least at that time, a very large presence of Black Pentacostal/Evangelical churches in those areas, too. Also, many Sikh and some Hindu temples; again, evidenced in the classroom with the young male students dressing their hair and heads according to their faith tradition.

As I remember it (hopefully accurately!), the school had a basically CofE ethos - or else had a head-teacher and many staff who were CofE connected; and Christian worship and assemblies were taken in these schools as a matter of course. And also a wide-ranging programme on religious education, as you can imagine!

It was a great place to experience certain aspects of multi-culturalism in Britain!

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
Maybe the real reason the boy was upset was because he wanted to wear a dress too. [Devil]

Huia

I wouldn't be surprised. Many's the time I've strolled through Marks', envious of the clothing choices women have. Men's clothes are so dull, and...

... and I'm saying this in public, aren't I? [Hot and Hormonal]

Hey, I'm as straight as a Roman Road but totally agree.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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