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Source: (consider it) Thread: The Superior Mr. Cheesy
Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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Since I can't call Cheesy huffy in Purgatory, I would like to respond here, to him calling me a racist.


Cheesy in the "Bad Language" thread in his usual passive aggressive way:
quote:
But I do think that there is a veneer of racism, classism and other-isms when people paint the way that others speak as "bad". That might not be you, I have no idea.

But it does seem to me that when people complain about excess use of Anglo-saxon, they're often actually complaining about patter and patterns of language they associate with particular racial groups.



I think all the racism is in your prissy little head for thinking that bad language (and I don't have any other word to call it) is something done more by certain classes or races. In my circles it's the educated whites who swear the most.

You may want to call it a dialect but it is not. Bad language is usually defined by specific words -- the same short list of words that George Carlin once called attention to as the words bleeped by radio and television.

I also see shades of racism in your frequent mention that these are old "Anglo-Saxon" words as though that makes them rather fine actually as compared to what? Words with African roots that wouldn't be as acceptable?

Cheesy's insult followed by "That might not be you. I have no idea." is so like tea drinking Kermit the Frog with his insults followed by,


but that's none of my business.

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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fuck off and get yourself a decent argument, you two-faced miserable bastard.

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arse

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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You said this:

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
When I was about twelve, my father heard my girlfriend and me saying, "Well, shoot-fire." We thought it was funny. He then gave me a lecture on swearing: "It's a bad habit. Don't do it."

That still seems like good advice to me. The people I know who swear a lot, swear a lot until it becomes boring and truly does seem like a bad verbal tic. It's now so prevalent among young people that I can't understand half of what the reality show contestants are saying because every other word is bleeped. Older people do it with a slightly self-conscious, "Aren't I shocking?" slant, as if their audience is a clutch of Victorian ladies and not their own bored peer group. Worse to me, it often stands in substitute for what could have been much more descriptive terms, as in, "That movie was shit."

For me it's not, how bad is bad language, but, why bad language?

and then later this:

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I'm calling it "bad" language because the title of thread calls it "bad" language.

Nowhere have I told anyone else they shouldn't use it. The whole point of thread is for we ourselves to say what we think of it. Do you think we should all be forced to like it? Should those of us who are fucking tone deaf to the beautiful cock thrusting rhythms of the language be forced to use it even if we aren't fucking feeling it?

Only you, Cheeesy, could sound all pearl clutching and huffy over someone not liking strong language.

Which by any estimation is stupid.

You are complaining about "bad" language whilst using the language you previously said was a bad habit and that people shouldn't do it.

Suggesting that you don't actually have a problem with the words, you have a problem with other people using them.

Fuck, shit, cunt is Anglo-saxon in origin
Copulate, excrement, vagina is Latin in origin.

The former sound course, the latter sounds scientific - even though the meaning is exactly the same.

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arse

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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Here's Cheesy's first response to my first post on that thread:
quote:

Originally posted by Twilight:


For me it's not, how bad is bad language, but, why bad language?

to which Cheesy replies
quote:

Just because you don't like it, can't understand the rhythm of it, can't be bothered with it - doesn't mean that others shouldn't. Or that it is "bad".


I told a personal anecdote about my father's advice and asked a question and Cheesy reads it as a demand that others shouldn't use it, including the personal insult to me that I can't understand the rhythm of it. He also pretends that I alone, on the second page of the thread, have suddenly decided to term the language "bad" in a more general way than anyone, including the OP writer had meant it.

My first post was fairly bland, but Cheesy decided to make it an excuse to insult me as he does almost every time I post anywhere.

Cheesy, I have no idea what you mean by "two-faced" or why you are calling me a bastard? You'll need to use more words.

Crossposted: Cheesy the the second post to you after you insulted me was sarcasm as in pointing out that the use of such ugly language is not really all that beautiful and rhythmic as you suggested.

[ 23. September 2017, 12:44: Message edited by: Twilight ]

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:


Crossposted: Cheesy the the second post to you after you insulted me was sarcasm as in pointing out that the use of such ugly language is not really all that beautiful and rhythmic as you suggested.

Oh right, that makes it OK then.

Whatever.

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arse

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RooK

1 of 6
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See, now I'm disappointed. I thought we had qualified for an upgrade to our old worn-out Mr. Cheesy.
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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Is it worth getting the popcorn out?

I think not.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Is it worth getting the popcorn out?

I think not.

IJ

The OP mentions "huffy". We need a blunt first, then the popcorn.
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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Well, perhaps I'll just stick with looking out for Nibiru as today's entertainment.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Is it worth getting the popcorn out?

I think not.

IJ

The OP mentions "huffy". We need a blunt first, then the popcorn.
Well I thought "huffy," was pretty lame myself but since I wasn't allowed to say it in Purgatory I came here. Given the choice, I would much rather have argued this out in Purgatory but I guess I was being too rough with his Cheesiness.

Cheesy, you think my post wasn't okay, even after I pointed out the obvious sarcasm, yet you're the one saying that sort of language is a good thing. It was actually hard for me to write, but I wanted to put that language out there to see exactly what we're talking about. You're calling me two faced and yet one minute you're calling such language rhythmic and implying that anyone who doesn't like it is racist and classist and the next minute it's shocking and definitely not "okay."

I have no idea what your initial problem was with my first post. The OP asks us to discuss how we feel about "bad" (or whatever you want to call it) language. I stated my own personal opinion and to you that was "telling everyone else how they should talk."

[Confused]

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:


Cheesy, you think my post wasn't okay, even after I pointed out the obvious sarcasm, yet you're the one saying that sort of language is a good thing. It was actually hard for me to write, but I wanted to put that language out there to see exactly what we're talking about. You're calling me two faced and yet one minute you're calling such language rhythmic and implying that anyone who doesn't like it is racist and classist and the next minute it's shocking and definitely not "okay."

Erm. What isn't ok is saying that language is bad and then using that language. Whether you were attempting satire or sarcasm or not.

You really need to listen to yourself on this: if the language is bad, it is bad when you use it as satire, it is bad whenever you use it.

quote:
I have no idea what your initial problem was with my first post. The OP asks us to discuss how we feel about "bad" (or whatever you want to call it) language. I stated my own personal opinion and to you that was "telling everyone else how they should talk."

[Confused]

Yeah. That's pretty much it - you are confused. How else do you explain using language that you say is bad?

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arse

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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And, for the record, I didn't say patterns of speech which include a lot of anglo-saxon are good, I just said that there is no particular general reason to classify it as bad.

Dialects are what they are: languages groups of people use to communicate with each other. Some English dialects include a lot of fucks. Not because they're being used aggressively, but because that's part of the poetry, patter and sound of the dialect.

If you allow yourself access to some fucks but then decry those who have fucks as punctuation, then you're decrying their whole dialect, where nobody actually gives a fuck about all the fucks. Because the frequency of the use has diminished the potency.

If one said that they had an aversion to Anglo-saxon, in a sense that's fair enough - although it seems that they'd have a bit of trouble navigating through communities where the dialect was full of it.

But what isn't good is allowing oneself a few fucks whilst somehow claiming that others who use that language more regularly are somehow morally suspect. That's a stupid argument.

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arse

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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Your basic problem seems to be with the word "bad." The OP talks about "bad" language. Everyone on the thread except you seemed to take that word "bad" in the context of "language some people think of as vulgar or not to be used in front of children or not permitted on TV." The word "bad" was to differentiate that language from other general forms of verbal communication that is commonly called language.

I don't think the words themselves are evil and I didn't say as much. I did say that I thought they could be habit forming. Using a few of them, once, as an example, on a thread where those words are under discussion does not contradict my opinion that they can be habit forming. One time usually doesn't form a habit.

All the "decrying" and calling people morally reprehensible is in your own head. Quit making stuff up out of whole cloth. You're actually lying now to prove your "point."

[ 23. September 2017, 16:52: Message edited by: Twilight ]

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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Right. Are we done here?

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arse

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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I'm certainly not done.

I have yet to say what a total jerk you are for calling people, not just me, racists on that Purg thread, because they don't like hearing the "f" word three times per sentence. Only you think that is something just black people say.

How handy the whole code thing is for people like you. You can pick on any ordinary thing anyone says and say it's really code for something else.

Someone you don't like says they don't like watermelon and that's code for "I don't like people of color," and just like that, that person is a racist -- as determined by Mr. Cheesy the worlds most judgmental little twerp.

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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Talk to yourself then, I'm not listening to your incoherent babble.

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arse

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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29

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Have we gotten to the sudden realization of mutual lust and furniture breaking yet?

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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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I spent six hours on the M3 and all I got was this lousy thread.

Having had to lecture the youngest Tor about how good northern words like bugger and bastard are likely to make his new southern friends clutch at their nannies and call for smelling salts, language is simply, as St Paul would have said, a tool for the job.

Feel free to discuss among yourselves what words would adequately describe both the thread-starter and their intended target.

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Forward the New Republic

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Ricardus
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# 8757

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Ahem. 'Bugger' is from a Middle French word meaning 'Bulgarian' and is a reference to the Bogomil heresy. (Google it if you don't believe me.)

Far from being a good northern word, it is clearly some kind of internationalist European plot intended to dilute British national identity and take jobs away from British swear-words.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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rolyn
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# 16840

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Feel free to discuss among yourselves what words would adequately describe both the thread-starter and their intended target.

Snowflakes tossing teddies out of prams. About as hellish as a box of kittens 🐱
Although we have had a --fingers in the ears with a 'ya, boo sucks -- which may theoretically put Twilight in the lead.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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well hang on. Cheesy implied she was racist and generally looks down on other people. Surely Twilight is entitled to respond to such an allegation, and I'm pretty sure Cheesy has yet to adequately defend himself.

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Human

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Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Is it worth getting the popcorn out?

I think not.

IJ

The OP mentions "huffy". We need a blunt first, then the popcorn.
[Killing me]

Twilight's sweary response was so obviously sarcastic I picked it up without context. Cheezles is trying very hard to be offended.

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Wronger than a drooling idiot on stupid juice - but I understand his argument.
mousethief (paraphrase)
----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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My scorecard shows Twilight definitely in the lead. The "racist" charge is bullshit, and Mr. Velveeta not getting the sarcasm in her sweary post (which was pretty fucking funny to me!) ... well, that's just stupid of him.
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Golden Key
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# 1468

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I haven't read the interaction actually on the Purg thread. But I agree that the section quoted here, to show how awful Twilight was being, was meant sarcastically.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Stejjie
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# 13941

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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
well hang on. Cheesy implied she was racist and generally looks down on other people. Surely Twilight is entitled to respond to such an allegation, and I'm pretty sure Cheesy has yet to adequately defend himself.

Well exactly - it seemed to me like a perfectly reasonable Hell call from Twilight. mr cheesy provided no evidence to substantiate his "objecting to swearing might be racist/classist/anything else-ist" assertion on the thread (and Twilight wasn't the only to challenge it). And when Twilight pulled him up about it here and rightly objected to the insinuation that by objecting to swearing she might be racist, he instead pulled a classic swerve by complaining about her sarcastic swearing, the point of which he missed completely. Which makes this:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
fuck off and get yourself a decent argument, you two-faced miserable bastard.

have a distinct whiff of hypocrisy about it. How about a decent argument yourself, instead of assertion, doubling-down, bluster and insult when challenged about it?

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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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I rather wish he'd take his own advice. I scroll past his posts now.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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I'm pretty sure we could have a thread about our favourite cheeses and cheesy would find a way to accuse someone of racism. I don't know why he does it, but it's bloody annoying.

And Twilight is winning this thread by a country mile. Cheesy has offered nothing but empty bluster and whataboutery.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Martin60
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# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Ahem. 'Bugger' is from a Middle French word meaning 'Bulgarian' and is a reference to the Bogomil heresy. (Google it if you don't believe me.)

Far from being a good northern word, it is clearly some kind of internationalist European plot intended to dilute British national identity and take jobs away from British swear-words.

The finest word in the English language.

Noun

Used as a term of affection or respect, typically grudgingly.
‘I just hope you didn't hurt the poor bugger’
‘all right, let the little buggers come in’

An annoyingly awkward thing.
‘muskets are a bugger to load’

Verb

bugger someone/something about or bugger someone/something up. Cause serious harm or trouble to.

bugger about/around. Act in a stupid or feckless way.

bugger it. Used to express an angrily dismissive attitude to (someone or something).

Phrases

bugger all. Nothing.

bugger me. Used to express surprise or amazement.

I'm buggered if — Used to make the following clause negative.

not give a (tuppenny) bugger. Not care in the slightest.

play silly buggers. Act in a foolish way.

well, I'm (or I'll be) buggered. Used to express one's amazement at something.

Phrasal Verbs

bugger off

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Love wins

Posts: 17005 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Talk to yourself then, I'm not listening to your incoherent babble.

It's quite coherent. You just don't like that she's called you out.

quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
well hang on. Cheesy implied she was racist and generally looks down on other people. Surely Twilight is entitled to respond to such an allegation, and I'm pretty sure Cheesy has yet to adequately defend himself.

This. Very this.

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
And Twilight is winning this thread by a country mile. Cheesy has offered nothing but empty bluster and whataboutery.

Pathetic, really. What a ****.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
whataboutery

Who says the ship is not educational? Never heard of this word before. I shall try to use it in a sentence by week's end.
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
well hang on. Cheesy implied she was racist and generally looks down on other people. Surely Twilight is entitled to respond to such an allegation, and I'm pretty sure Cheesy has yet to adequately defend himself.

cheesy has flounced, as far as this thread is concerned.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
whataboutery

Who says the ship is not educational? Never heard of this word before. I shall try to use it in a sentence by week's end.
Call yourself a Shippie?! It's only ever USED on the Ship!

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Love wins

Posts: 17005 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
cheesy has flounced, as far as this thread is concerned.

Add "coward" to his ever-expanding list of negative traits.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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And 'mild', as in mild Cheddar cheese (i.e. not worth buying - might as well eat soap...).

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
And 'mild', as in mild Cheddar cheese (i.e. not worth buying - might as well eat soap...).

IJ

Oooh you bad sod!

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Love wins

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Martin60
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# 368

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You see, the trouble is with mr cheesy, he's worth it. The good outweighs the bad.

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Love wins

Posts: 17005 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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Yes, I even agreed with him a few times recently. He didn't know it though.
Since we don't have like buttons. [Biased]

Posts: 6715 | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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Aye T. It's a pity he just doesn't come here and say sorry regardless and start over. But we know he would if he could.

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Love wins

Posts: 17005 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
You see, the trouble is with mr cheesy, he's worth it. The good outweighs the bad.

Disagree

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Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 29952 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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Whataboutery/Whataboutism

Whataboutery can be dated to at least 1974 in the Irish Times.

[ 29. September 2017, 00:00: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

Posts: 63202 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Aye T. It's a pity he just doesn't come here and say sorry regardless and start over. But we know he would if he could.

That's all it takes, huh. I certainly enjoyed the thread Cheesy started on the OT recently.

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Human

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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He often begins comments in this vein -

quote:
Maybe you're not trying very hard or lack imagination.
Which rattles my cage.

Why the personal jibe, whoever you are talking to and whatever you think of them?

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Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 12737 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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Context Boogie? Which is rhetorical. I know: Russ on The Social-Progressive Mindset. And ... therefore nearly infinitely forgivable. But in ad hominem contravention of Purgatorial rules admittedly. Where he's otherwise doing a decent job - the good, Marvin.

Look, he can't admit when he's screwed up, and he ain't alone there by a country mile here.

He and I fell out two different ways over Grenfell. On the first I'm actually mulling that in the greater scheme of things he was right.

We need to get naked and vulnerable here you know? Like the group sessions in Starred Up. Express our emotions objectively with full personal responsibility without acting out on them.

And that.

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Love wins

Posts: 17005 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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Naked? - no chance, I don't want to scare the crew!

Vulnerable? Open about emotions? I always am.

But Mr Cheesy needs to keep off the personal even when he's right, whether it's against the Ship's rules or not.

Much better discourse that way [Smile]

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Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 12737 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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I agree completely. Hypocrite that I am. And yes Boogie, you are completely exemplarily open and vulnerable. I'm happy to be so anywhere too, but I think Hell has the best potential. We have a long way to go in taking responsibility for our feelings I ... feel.

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Love wins

Posts: 17005 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
He often begins comments in this vein -

quote:
Maybe you're not trying very hard or lack imagination.
Which rattles my cage.

Why the personal jibe, whoever you are talking to and whatever you think of them?

Because when we try, in a distracting or superfluous way, to draw attention to someone else's supposed failures we're hoping they won't notice our own; and somehow we imagine that that also magically strengthens our argument?

I know I'm guilty of this. It's hard to resist. Especially when we feel we're on a sticky wicket.

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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!

Posts: 9960 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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Me too. But in this particular instance I think mr c was just hopelessly trying to penetrate Russ' white privileged Teflon hide.

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Love wins

Posts: 17005 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Me too. But in this particular instance I think mr c was just hopelessly trying to penetrate Russ' white privileged Teflon hide.

A troll's hide is notoriously thick.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17098 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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The thing with mr c is, that if one pretends that everything's fine, it is.

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Love wins

Posts: 17005 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784

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quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Because when we try, in a distracting or superfluous way, to draw attention to someone else's supposed failures we're hoping they won't notice our own; and somehow we imagine that that also magically strengthens our argument?

I know I'm guilty of this. It's hard to resist. Especially when we feel we're on a sticky wicket.

Exactly. I have come to the understanding that judging someone else is not only useless (in that it does not help them one whit) it is also actually a judgment of myself. I say that because when I judge someone else I am really, but subconsciously, trying to deny my imperfect, or shadow, side by finding someone else to be more imperfect than myself.

Part of my morning prayer is to to leave off judgment and replace it with compassion.

Posts: 6902 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged


 
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