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Source: (consider it) Thread: Mansplaining
cliffdweller
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Rant: Mansplaining. Never the obvious, egotistical version, but the more subtle, insidious kind. The mansplainer probably doesn't even realize he's doing it, since he can, in his better moments, be quite generous in acknowledging ones greater experience and expertise. But then-- perhaps out of habit-- there's those emails that just "express concern" that essentially you freakin' don't know what the hell you are doing, even though you've got a track record a mile long of successfully starting new ministries while he's the new kid on the block. So of course, out of the goodness of his heart, he has to explain all those things that could go wrong that I obviously didn't think of (even though that's my area of expertise) and did I think about ministry priorities and budget and so forth? He has a friend who does this and he said it was hard, so perhaps a teeny little girl like you ought not to be trying this. All said with so much love of course, with that caveat of "I hope you don't think I'm being negative..."

I want to call him on it, but then he'll be hurt but I'm too sensitive (aren't all females?) and prickly. All so very very passive aggressive, and I never know what to do with these sorts of obtuse passive-aggressive irritants. Maybe not deserving of the full-on, fire-and-brimstone, burning-for-all-eternity hell, but surely there should be some junior hell somewhere?

[Mad]

[ 30. September 2017, 00:03: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
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Dear Mansplainer,

Please don't be concerned, I can tell you're worried about all the changes coming up, and I completely understand. As I recall back in the day when I was first doing things of this kind, I used to get a bit flustered myself.

Rest assured, all the problems that you're anticipating have either already been dealt with or will be easily handled along the way.

Many thanks for caring so much, but there's no need for hysteria or panic. Try to stay calm and trust that it will all work out.

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cliffdweller
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Yeah, more or less what I emailed thru gritted teeth.

Mostly he's a decent guy who will, when he's on his game, be really appreciative of my skills and experience. Then he'll fall back into what I'm guessing is a long-ingrained habit. But my fear is that that is what comes out when he's talking about me when I'm not there-- when some church member asks about the new ministry I'm spearheading (that over 1/3 of the congregation has already signed on to be a part of) does he express that same sort of gee-I-sure-hope-the-sky-doesn't-fall-in trepidation? Or when others express concerns does he give the complementary overreaction: "Oh, don't mention that to cliffdweller, you know how sensitive she is about any well-meaning suggestions..."

more [Mad]

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Ohher
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Well, this is your thread, so I won't hi-jack it with recent [Mad] similar incidents [Mad] from my own life. I'll just say I begin to think that mansplainers may be people I'll need to avoid from here on out in my life. I do not want to spend my dotage in prison.

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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Ohher:
Well, this is your thread, so I won't hi-jack it with recent [Mad] similar incidents [Mad] from my own life. I'll just say I begin to think that mansplainers may be people I'll need to avoid from here on out in my life. I do not want to spend my dotage in prison.

Oh this is an pen access rant space so feel to let loose! I've got a feeling I'll resonate!

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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lilBuddha
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How about Oldsplaining then? I dislike it almost as much as mansplaining. I respect experience, but age does not automatically confer this, especially for something one has never done. All age inherently adds is the statistical nearness of death. Add manspaining on top of oldsplaining and one just might also increase the odds of the nearness of a boot to the bum.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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RooK

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Aww, a lone mansplainer, dolloping out his 'splaining with clumsy smears. He wouldn't even rank among the mansplaining league at my office.

This is a difficult topic for me. Partially because of how problematic culture change is in a multinational engineering organization. But also because I know more than everybody else and feel a continuous need to explain that to them. And these stupid, petty mansplainers leave their sexist odour everywhere such that it taints my wholesome and equally-dispensed intellectual elitism.

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Golden Key
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Rook--

Yeah, you just keep telling yourself that...
[Biased]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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simontoad
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I can fall into mansplaining without knowing it very easily. My main problem is when discussions about the law come up, as that's something I practised last century. So many times I have told my wife, a skilled and practising lawyer about this or that aspect of litigation. I've even purported to tell her about family law, the area of her specialty in which I have worked on a total of one file more than 20 years ago.

I think the problem is: 1. An innate sense of being the one who knows things;
2. A sense that you are giving the comunicatee the gift of your expertise; and
3. You are just used to people being impressed with you and praising you.

Hmmm. Am I mansplaining mansplaining?

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Human

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Boogie

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I'm a dogsplainer [Big Grin]

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Garden. Room. Walk

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simontoad
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I'm a dogsplainer [Big Grin]

[Overused] [Killing me] [Overused] [Killing me]

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Human

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rolyn
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If you fancy mansplainer detox therapy try the episode of Rev where Abby turns up with her natural God given talents and Adam struggles with it big time. It's funny but may not cross the Pond well.

Some males feel the need to patronise females-- tedious fact. How can the after effects of 3 millennia of male superiority be completely swept in just a handful of decades.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Golden Key
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Turning the tables on men, for a couple of years, so they can see what it's like?

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Boogie

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I don't think us females always help the situation.

I do the AV at Church, and I'm good at it. One bloke loves to tell me how to do stuff I was doing ten years ago (it's all new to him). What do I do? I kindly listen and 'learn'.

A bit like fake orgasms, it's the easier route [Roll Eyes]

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Garden. Room. Walk

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rolyn
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[Killing me]

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Tortuf
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I read a recent article in the New Yorker Why Facts Don't Change Our Minds. Hopefully it will not be behind a pay wall, because it is pretty interesting.

Essentially, once we are told we understand something, we will always believe we understand it better than anyone else, even if we are as full of shit as a Christmas Turkey.

Whoever this junior genius is has three significant handicaps:

He is a guy in a culture that tends to teach guys they are more capable than women.

He is young and has not yet had his head beaten in by experience enough to have any real humility.

He appears to be (at least relatively) fresh out of the box of being educated so he thinks he knows it all better than someone who has not been educated as well as he has. (In his humble opinion.)

Given time, and the polishing of experience in being wrong, he may turn out to be OK. He may even be an earnest soul who is potentially capable of learning.

As for when he starts mansplaining, you might be honest with him and tell him he is coming off as a bit condescending. If he tells you that you are being too sensitive, it is a reflection of his being callow. At that point you might feel free to tell him you have actual work to do instead of learning from the true master and maybe he could come back when you don't have any work to do - like say 2028 or so.

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
If you fancy mansplainer detox therapy try the episode of Rev where Abby turns up with her natural God given talents and Adam struggles with it big time. It's funny but may not cross the Pond well.

Some males feel the need to patronise females-- tedious fact. How can the after effects of 3 millennia of male superiority be completely swept in just a handful of decades.

3? 300

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Love wins

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simontoad
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I think having it pointed out to you by a woman who loves you helps. Well, it helped me at least, in that it raised my consciousness.

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Human

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I don't think us females always help the situation.

I do the AV at Church, and I'm good at it. One bloke loves to tell me how to do stuff I was doing ten years ago (it's all new to him). What do I do? I kindly listen and 'learn'.

A bit like fake orgasms, it's the easier route [Roll Eyes]

[Yipee]

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:


Whoever this junior genius is has three significant handicaps:

He is a guy in a culture that tends to teach guys they are more capable than women.

He is young and has not yet had his head beaten in by experience enough to have any real humility.

He appears to be (at least relatively) fresh out of the box of being educated so he thinks he knows it all better than someone who has not been educated as well as he has. (In his humble opinion.)

Given time, and the polishing of experience in being wrong, he may turn out to be OK. He may even be an earnest soul who is potentially capable of learning.

As for when he starts mansplaining, you might be honest with him and tell him he is coming off as a bit condescending. If he tells you that you are being too sensitive, it is a reflection of his being callow. At that point you might feel free to tell him you have actual work to do instead of learning from the true master and maybe he could come back when you don't have any work to do - like say 2028 or so.

Actually he's not young-- same age as me. But he's new to professional ministry whereas I've been doing it since Moses. He's retired from a successful business career, which I think adds to the mix-- there's this whole tendency to think "smart businessmen" know so much more about, well, everything, than us head-in-the- clouds clergy. Experience has shown me otherwise, a lot of "smart businessmen" would faint dead away if they had to deal with the fiscal, practical, and relational issues we have to deal with every day. But they're pumped up by adoring churches convinced they're Gods gift to ecclesia. "Businessplaining" I guess

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
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quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
I read a recent article in the New Yorker Why Facts Don't Change Our Minds. Hopefully it will not be behind a pay wall, because it is pretty interesting.



Great article! It explains so much.

It's main point is that it's terribly hard to un-learn things, even after being confronted with newer, better information, proving the old stuff false. (When I think of all the crap I learned in high-school, etc.)

It also ties in with something I read recently that says the reason so many men are reluctant to help with the housework is they think they aren't good at it. This article talks about people thinking they know how a toilet works until the moment they're asked to explain it. Many men think something like cleaning the kitchen is simple until they set out to do it and then they feel stupid when they, maybe, mop before sweeping. They might even end up having to sit still for some woman-splaining. The worst.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
He's retired from a successful business career, which I think adds to the mix

This is a common myth, hence the current POTUS.
Another factor, with no connection to the current POTUS, is intelligence. If one is genuinely very intelligent and used to being correct, it can be difficult for to see when one is not. A friend of mine who is intelligent, knowledgeable and reasons things through sometimes suffers this fault. Fortunately, he is not unbending.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Tortuf
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One of the most valuable lessons I have ever learned is that it is a good thing to admit it when you are wrong; not only to other people, but yourself as well.

So, cliffdweller, I was wrong about this guy being young. He appears to just be young at head.

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mousethief

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I understand that mansplaining needs stamping out. I have caught myself mansplaining and been caught out mansplaining by women who cared enough about me to point out what I was doing without either shutting me off, or attacking me. Which is probably above and beyond the call of duty for them, and I am thankful.

Sadly I have also been accused of mansplaining when I was not -- I was trying to explain my point of view, not explain to somebody else what they should do or something they already know. It totally shut down the conversation. If I tried to explain why I didn't believe what I was doing was mansplaining, THAT would be tagged as mansplaining. At that point the conversation was over.

Mansplaining is a powerful concept that can shine a light on a ugly, abusive behavior. It needs to not be misused.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Bishops Finger
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I'm very good at admitting I'm wrong, as I'm so often wrong - plenty of practice!

As people are fond of telling me.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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I can learn new languages. But I speak with an accent because of all my previous learning. Which means I mustn't much talk unless asked. Mostly it's harder to listen my way into trouble than talking my way in.

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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Jane R
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Twilight:
quote:
It also ties in with something I read recently that says the reason so many men are reluctant to help with the housework is they think they aren't good at it.
No, this is known as selective incompetence. It disappears as soon as the man in question is presented with a new task to learn that he is actually interested in, and explains why most of them are experts at recording TV programs and setting up new hi-fi equipment but are overcome with fear of 'making a mistake' when asked to turn on the washing machine...
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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
One of the most valuable lessons I have ever learned is that it is a good thing to admit it when you are wrong; not only to other people, but yourself as well.

So, cliffdweller, I was wrong about this guy being young. He appears to just be young at head.

Perfectly reasonable given the facts I disclosed. I actually get a lot more respect from younger male clergy, who have been raised in more egalitarian cultures/households and are more used to having women in positions of authority. In this particular case, I think this specific mansplainer gets the issue in theory-- as I said, on a good day he can be quite supportive and even name the assets I bring to the table. I suspect it's decades of habit that get in the way, so his age is probably working against him.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I understand that mansplaining needs stamping out. I have caught myself mansplaining and been caught out mansplaining by women who cared enough about me to point out what I was doing without either shutting me off, or attacking me. Which is probably above and beyond the call of duty for them, and I am thankful.

Sadly I have also been accused of mansplaining when I was not -- I was trying to explain my point of view, not explain to somebody else what they should do or something they already know. It totally shut down the conversation. If I tried to explain why I didn't believe what I was doing was mansplaining, THAT would be tagged as mansplaining. At that point the conversation was over.

Mansplaining is a powerful concept that can shine a light on a ugly, abusive behavior. It needs to not be misused.

Agreed. A problem that extends to other areas as well.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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mr cheesy
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My wife is a world expert in something that doesn't really matter outside of the field she works in.

When she has time she sometimes attends a local group which meets in a pub and is related to it.

Anyway, it so happens that on one occasion I went to the group (I was carrying the groceries or something) and sat in the corner whilst everyone else was talking shop.

This one man started talking to the group and directly to my wife about something really basic. It was fairly clear, even to me* about the subject that he was talking to my wife as if she didn't even have an undergraduate level understanding of the topic. The funny thing was that other people at the event knew who my wife was and were trying to stop this chap continuing to talk to my wife like she was an idiot, but he was carrying on totally oblivious to it.

In conversation afterwards I learned that this happens a lot, despite her job, her international recognition, etc etc etc.

I concluded, once again, that my wife is a far far better person than I am.

*I know next-to-nothing about it and they use a lot of jargon

[ 30. September 2017, 15:41: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

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arse

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cliffdweller
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Mr Cheesy, I love your wife already, and want to be her when I grow up.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Mr Cheesy, I love your wife already, and want to be her when I grow up.

Me too. She's a workaholic but she's also the best person I know.

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arse

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mr cheesy
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Anyway, my main point rather than blubbering on about my wife, is that we men need reminding that sometimes women know a lot more than we give them credit for.

It is fair to say that everyone makes mistakes and makes erroneous initial judgments about other people. But it seems particularly to be men who assume that because someone else is short and female, they cannot possibly know anything.

If one is around beery men who are used to holding fort and is a small, quiet-voiced female, it seems that one has to be very firm to be noticed at all.

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arse

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mr cheesy
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Oh dear, sorry. I think I might have just been mansplaining mansplaining.

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arse

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Oh dear, sorry. I think I might have just been mansplaining mansplaining.

Well, but you were mansplaining it to men, which might be an effective object lesson.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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mousethief

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# 953

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A friend told me about a friend of his who was a PhD in physics and coincidentally a conventionally gorgeous blonde bombshell. She liked to go to conferences and sit in the front row on the arm of a man, and when the (male) presenter asked for questions she would demurely put a hand up and ask about some arcane bit of reasoning in his presentation.

When he started getting all "now little lady don't worry your pretty head" she would ask if she could come to the board, and then rip his reasoning to shreds and jump on his inconsistencies and mistakes with both feet, and basically hand him his head.

Some, I suppose, would say that was unkind or unprofessional behavior. I wish I could have been there at least once.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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rolyn
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# 16840

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Females can sometimes overcompensate when breaking into what is generally viewed to be a man's domain.

I used to notice this when driving on single track roads 15 years or so ago. Heading towards me, hogging the road and expecting me to make way would often be an aggressive overcompensatory female.
I'm happy to report, from my tiny eyewitness sampling, that this is generally no longer the case. In fact even male drivers seem more courteous. See how quickly evolution and the behaviour of the herd will, when left to it's own devices, adjust to a new situation.

( Oh, and yes, you were right Martin. 300,000 years would indeed take us back to--- 'Hello, I'm Og the Caveman, I am superior and I know best' )

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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mousethief

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# 953

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Couldn't it just be that that particular driver was just a bitch, like the men drivers you say do it less also? You may be reading "overcompensating" into a situation that's just a nasty person being nasty.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Females can sometimes overcompensate when breaking into what is generally viewed to be a man's domain.

Of course this is also true. Women do not somehow have a magic aura of competence.

Dunning–Kruger is a general affect that seems to apply to people in all walks of life.

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arse

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Doublethink.
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# 1984

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How was driving in 2002 a "man's domain" in the industrialised west rolyn ?

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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Of course, it could be that rolyn was being a dick.

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Forward the New Republic

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Doublethink.
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# 1984

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Is knocked over by a passing feather

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
How was driving in 2002 a "man's domain" in the industrialised west rolyn ?

Perhaps this took place in Riyadh?

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
How was driving in 2002 a "man's domain" in the industrialised west rolyn ?

IME, when a mixed-sex couple drives somewhere, it is significantly more common for the man to drive. Women driving cars is normal, of course. Women driving a car with an adult man in the passenger's seat are fairly rare on roads around here.
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Ricardus
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# 8757

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I wonder if we can add Mumsplaining to the list?

Take a crying baby into a public place and sooner or later a woman of a certain age will feel it necessary to impart the benefit of her immense wisdom:

'Do you think he could be hungry?'

GOSH I DIDN'T KNOW YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO FEED THEM I THOUGHT THEY JUST PHOTOSYNTHESISED IN THE SUNLIGHT

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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A man with a baby. Oh dear Lord, the amount of unsolicited advice I got from well-meaning women... I can't look after children, I don't have ovaries!

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Forward the New Republic

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anoesis
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# 14189

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I feel for you in your dilemma, Cliffdweller. My father-in-law is a mansplainer extraordinaire, which is frequently face-meltingly frustrating, particularly given that he's a completely lovely person and in no way a chauvinist pig. His wife (i.e.: my mother-in-law) is basically a genius, who speaks a completely ridiculous number of languages. I'm guessing they've evolved a sort of symbiosis over time - she accepts being mansplained to and says 'yes dear' a great deal, he is the acknowledged expert on anything practical, and all his bustling the place around affords her more time to sit and read books. This is all in great contrast to my own father, several years gone now, who strutted around being all 'head of the household' (in theory) while my much more practical mother actually ran the show. Despite absolutely decrying feminism, (in theory) he'll have my eternal gratitude for always engaging with me as just another person, no more, no less, whenever we sparred over some issue, which was very frequently, to our mutual satisfaction. God, I miss him.

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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --

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rolyn
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# 16840

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
How was driving in 2002 a "man's domain" in the industrialised west rolyn ?

IME, when a mixed-sex couple drives somewhere, it is significantly more common for the man to drive. Women driving cars is normal, of course. Women driving a car with an adult man in the passenger's seat are fairly rare on roads around here.
Ok, hands up, my timeline as with the millennia gaff was a bit wonky.
Round here, admittedly a timewarped rural backwater, through 70s and 80s female drivers were a growing minority and generally viewed as timid drivers.
The Jurassic turned into Cretaceous with the 90s bringing on more confident women drivers. Then at the turn of the Century it was like 'WTf ?' . A new breed had appear who seemed, yes wonderful at taking their vehicle through the tightest of gaps between oncomer and hedge, but totally oblivious to the concept of passing places.

A couple of letters appeared in the local rags around the same time so it wasn't just me having a bitch.

For the record, apart from driving at work, I am chauffeured by my female partner who is herself rather, shall we say, direct. Amusing then when two of similar hue meet on a narrow lane.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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And your explanation for aggressive driving by men is ?

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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simontoad
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# 18096

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You can't post about "women drivers" in a thread about mainsplaining without intending to be provocative. It's like threatening to nuke Guam: the intention is to cause trouble.

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Human

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