homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Hell   » What has gone wrong with the human race? (Page 2)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: What has gone wrong with the human race?
Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

 - Posted      Profile for Moo   Email Moo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha
The Germans were not possessed by demons or particularly bad, neither were the Khmer Rouge, etc. Ordinary people can be got to do horrible things in the right circumstance.

All the Germans who were adults when Hitler came to power had at least part of their schooling while the Kaiser was on the throne. They had been taught that they belonged to the government and their highest duty was to obey the government.

The fact that the Gestapo would descend on people who didn't see it that way also provided a strong incentive to go along with the regime.

Moo

--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.

Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either - but right through every human heart - and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us it oscillates with the years. And even within the hearts overwhelmed with evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained. And even in the best of all hearts, there remains…an un-uprooted small corner of evil. Since then I have come to understand the truth of all the religions on the world. They struggle with the evil inside a human being (inside every human being). It is impossible to expel evil from the world in its entirety, but it is possible to constrict it within each person. And since that time I have come to understand the falsehood of all the revolutions of history: they destroy only those carriers of evil contemporary with them (and also fail, out of haste, to discriminate the carriers of good as well). And they take to themselves as their heritage the actual evil itself, magnified still more.
Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

Good and evil sits in every one of us, and we have to make the daily effort to constrict the evil inside.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
If PapaDoc Tor had placed you, BabyDoc Tor, in a time machine and you were taken to early 20thC Germany, you could have been a guard at Dachau.

No.

I'd have been in Dachau, you blind idiot, because PapaDoc Tor was a fucking Jew.

Seriously. Go and sit in a corner and think about what you've done.

Seriously, go sit in a corner and think.
What the Germans did in WWII was horrible and horrifying and there is no excuse. However there are reasons that people, ordinary people, could be complicit in that. If you think it was a characteristic of being German, you are a fool. It was a characteristic of being human and it isn't "evil lurking inside". The capacity to do good or bad things does reside in all of us. But what brings it out is often much more mundane than "teh evilz".
Thinking that way can allow a complacency that can aid those who would pull people into acts of a terrifying nature.
In short, if you think God can protect you, you might not think critically of what is happening around you.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
No, I don't think it was characteristic of being German. It was a characteristic of doing what a fascist tells you to do and doing it.

Meanwhile, you conveniently skip past the point where you told the son of a Jew he could be a guard at Dachau.

Fuck you and the horse you rode in on. If you ever want to think about where evil lies, think about that part where you elided your own boorish error and tried to make me feel bad instead. Evil comes from inside you.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

Meanwhile, you conveniently skip past the point where you told the son of a Jew he could be a guard at Dachau.

It isn't something I could know without being psychic. If you have mentioned it on this site, I missed it.

quote:

Fuck you and the horse you rode in on. If you ever want to think about where evil lies, think about that part where you elided your own boorish error and tried to make me feel bad instead. Evil comes from inside you.

I was not trying to make you feel bad, but to illustrate my point.
Though, I will admit in my focus on my point I did not think about how you feel about what your father went through. And that was insensitive.
Nazis are a goto example of how bad we humans can be, so I used them. I should have switched examples after you mentioned your father.
And I apologise for that.

What I am trying to illustrate holds true regardless of who is abusing who.
I could have used personal examples, but the most demonstrative would require more than just time travel. The idea is the same though, I could abuse people in the way my ancestors were abused. I could could treat people as I am treated. One thing that makes me different is opportunity. I hope that I would still stand for what is right, that I would still advocate for equality. But I cannot know. Understanding why we do what we do is one of the few hopes we have of not succumbing to the worst of what we can be.

ETA: Regarding opportunity. I have been a bully. Not intentionally, but there are situations I have abused what power I've had. Not egregiously, but still abused power.

[ 05. January 2018, 00:12: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Doc Tor--

Respectfully, was there any way for lB to know your father was Jewish?

{cross-posted with lB.}

[ 05. January 2018, 00:19: Message edited by: Golden Key ]

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28

 - Posted      Profile for Nicolemr   Author's homepage   Email Nicolemr   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
To get back to the OP, I think it's fairly obvious that nothing has "gone wrong" with the human race. We are as we've always been, with capacity for great good and great evil built into us. Anyone who thinks that people in the past were in any way less inclined to evil than people are today doesn't know much history.

--------------------
On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I have been a bully. Not intentionally, but there are situations I have abused what power I've had. Not egregiously, but still abused power.

Oh, that's bollocks. You are a bully. You're a bully here on this site. It's been pointed out to you often enough here in Hell.

Your capacity for self-delusion together with your knee-jerk offence trigger makes you - on occasions - a genuinely unpleasant poster for others to have to deal with.

The difference between us is that I recognise my capacity for evil. Most days I keep a lid on it. Some days I don't. But recognising I'm a monster is part of the solution. For all your supposed wokeness, you're blind to the monster inside you.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

 - Posted      Profile for Boogie     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The ‘evil lurking inside you’ is part of being human. It’s the animal, reptilian brain.

We are all using the different words to describe the same thing.

Any one of us could revert to that reptilian ‘kill’ mode given the right (awful) circumstances.

Dogs don’t have human brains, they have mammalian brains which do experience feelings of love, joy fear and disgust - ‘tho not the more complex feelings of guilt, pride and shame.

I see exactly the point that normal dog interaction turns into ‘prey drive’ and the primitive responses reappear. It’s more subtle with humans and we have all the capacity to then rationalise and justify every action.

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Doc Tor--

Respectfully, was there any way for lB to know your father was Jewish?

{cross-posted with lB.}

lB might not have known but, as they say in court, ignorance is no excuse. She certainly can't pretend it doesn't matter.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Oh, that's bollocks. You are a bully. You're a bully here on this site. It's been pointed out to you often enough here in Hell.

A bully needs power, what power do I have here?
quote:

The difference between us is that I recognise my capacity for evil. Most days I keep a lid on it. Some days I don't. But recognising I'm a monster is part of the solution. For all your supposed wokeness, you're blind to the monster inside you.

Not completely blind. I have mentioned many times that I’ve an anger problem. I also am stubborn and have difficulty letting things go. I’m far too blunt and confrontational. Well, the list goes on. This is absolutely not an excuse for anything. It is the opposite of an excuse.
But it is the point. I know what triggers me and the reasons behind it. And still find it difficult to keep it under control all the time. Most people don’t and that is one reason ordinary, generally good, people can be complicit in atrocity.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Doc Tor--

Respectfully, was there any way for lB to know your father was Jewish?

{cross-posted with lB.}

lB might not have known but, as they say in court, ignorance is no excuse.
This doesn’t make sense in this context.
quote:

She certainly can't pretend it doesn't matter.

I didn’t say it doesn’t matter. As much as I obviously don’t mind being a bitch, I don’t deliberately go for a poster’s sensitive issues.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

 - Posted      Profile for rolyn         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
LB uses the words 'I apologise' in a single sentence. Not something I thought I’d live to witness.

Many of Lb's posts are informative but for some unknown, (possibly tangible), reason a good proportion of those contributions are tainted with a latent fury and spite. As the popcorn was being munched it did appear a legitimate argument was being used by LB, one which I might agree with, but when she blindly reversed into DT a good deal of rethinking time was required for the tone to be altered.

Going back to Godwin and death camps.
At the Nuremberg trials there was one camp commander who, being proper and 'honourable', said he was resolute in not allowing any cruelty or humiliation to those being held there to be murdered. He was laughed at by the Courtroom. I do though wonder where that individual comes in on the 1 to 10 scale of evil when put beside others who delighted in torture.

In terms of the human race as a whole, if there is any detectable difference in our potential for cruelty then what can any human do but look into her/his own heart.

--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence

Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
LB uses the words 'I apologise' in a single sentence. Not something I thought I’d live to witness.

Seriously? I've done it many times here. Too many times really, because it means I need to slow down and think before posting.
quote:

Many of Lb's posts are informative but for some unknown, (possibly tangible), reason a good proportion of those contributions are tainted with a latent fury and spite.

Fury is a legitimate charge. Spite. I can think of one person to whom it might be fair to say I interact this way with. But generally, no. Fury covers most of it.
quote:

As the popcorn was being munched it did appear a legitimate argument was being used by LB, one which I might agree with, but when she blindly reversed into DT a good deal of rethinking time was required for the tone to be altered.

Legit. Straight up, I fucked up there.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

 - Posted      Profile for Moo   Email Moo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
At the Nuremberg trials there was one camp commander who, being proper and 'honourable', said he was resolute in not allowing any cruelty or humiliation to those being held there to be murdered.

He was saying that it was his job to run the death camp, with all that entailed. However, it was not part of his job to allow gratuitous cruelty.

I do not subscribe to this point of view in any way, but I understand it. The German people had it drilled into them that they owed obedience to those in authority. The commandant was under orders to send these people to the gas chambers, but he was free to act as he saw fit as far a the treatment of prisoners before they went to the gas chambers.

I was a student in Germany in the mid-1950s, and I gradually came to understand the attitude of most Germans toward authority.

Moo

--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.

Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Sioni Sais--

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Doc Tor--

Respectfully, was there any way for lB to know your father was Jewish?

{cross-posted with lB.}

lB might not have known but, as they say in court, ignorance is no excuse. She certainly can't pretend it doesn't matter.
I've never believed that "ignorance is no excuse".

In calling lB a "blind idiot", Doc Tor sounds like the truth is right in front of her face, and she hasn't noticed it.

Doc Tor has every right to feel pain and anger about the hypothetical situation of being in a concentration camp (or being a guard, for that matter). If he had said, one or two posts before lB's, that he's particularly sensitive to the problem of evil because of Jewish ancestry...and lB had read and understood that...and purposely said what she did...then yes, she would've been very much in the wrong.

I've read many of Doc Tor's posts over many years, and had no idea of any Jewish ancestry. Of course, I do lose track of people's backgrounds and beliefs here. And we generally know very little about any particular Shipmate.

Yes, lB's posts can be difficult. BUT IMHO they've been much better over the past year or so.

I just don't think she should be blamed when she didn't know.

FWIW.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

 - Posted      Profile for simontoad   Email simontoad   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I enjoy much of what LB posts, though I've really only been active since 2016. She applies a blowtorch to error which can be hurtful, but she also usually has the saving grace which comes from being correct. I believe she's been sufficiently contrite here, and I doff my hat to her for that.

--------------------
Human

Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

 - Posted      Profile for rolyn         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:

I was a student in Germany in the mid-1950s, and I gradually came to understand the attitude of most Germans toward authority.
Moo

When looking at Germany from the 50s onwards up to the present day, I can't help but have respect for a people capable of bouncing back from the ravages of two world wars and the Iron curtain.
Productions like Das Boot and Downfall reveal much of what you say as to the German attitude to authority in wartime.
Maybe the nation needs to search it's conscience a little deeper over the actual atrocities committed in wartime? Maybe many of us need to try forget about the whole 'effin business, I really don't know.

--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence

Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged
Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

 - Posted      Profile for Moo   Email Moo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Productions like Das Boot and Downfall reveal much of what you say as to the German attitude to authority in wartime.

That attitude was not just in wartime. It was there long before. I don't know whether it is still there.

Moo

--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.

Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

 - Posted      Profile for ThunderBunk   Email ThunderBunk   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Any register of wartime atrocities needs to record also those committed by the Allies. I'm thinking particularly of the bombing of Dresden, which was sheer needless, vindictive destruction. The war was already won at that stage.

--------------------
Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

 - Posted      Profile for rolyn         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Dresden was done as a show of strength, it was done to assist the Russian advance, it was done to send an unequivocal message to a Country which had both threatened war and waged war for 70 years.
The bombing of civilians was a strategic method initiated by Germany in WW1. The fire-storming of cities was a method tried on East London in 1940, and given the resources Germany would have relentlessly pursued those tactics in order to defeat Britain.

Two wrongs and a right? Maybe so. Takes us back to the OP title.

--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence

Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged
Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

 - Posted      Profile for Moo   Email Moo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Another reason for the bombing of Dresden is that the Allies were very tired of the war, and wanted to end it as soon as possible.

Moo

--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.

Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Moo--

When you were in Germany and trying to understand it later, did you find that the acceptance of authority varied in different parts of Germany?

There's a saying I learned (possibly in German class): Northern Germans say "the situation is serious, but not hopeless", whereas Southern Germans say "the situation is hopeless, but not serious". I don't know how much of a stereotype that is.

Just wondering how those attitudes might have played out re authority.

Thx.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

 - Posted      Profile for simontoad   Email simontoad   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I also wonder to what extent German attitudes to authority have changed as a result of the East German experience and re-unification. It's on my long list of thinks I'd like to know. I read a Merkel biography, but it was basically a panegyric. I'm girding my loins to read another one, but this time I will try to find one in a bookshop (could be tough) so I can make an assessment of what the author thinks of her. Maybe that bloke who did the hatchet job on Trump will do her next...

--------------------
Human

Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The Germany my father left just pre-war is nothing like the Germany my cousins live in now. Authority is questioned all the time. But the culture is also one of politeness and not being a jerk about it. German lack of subtlety and lack of nuance has something also to do with the structure of the language; I won't suggest that psycholinguistics are pivotal, but there's an influence. The obedience to authority thing had truth in it, but it does not explain well the genocidal practice of the Nazi regime. This, I think had more in common with more typical historical European anti-Semitism and racism than most want to admit. Just add complete devastation of the economy and, yes it could happen here. Understanding that Black people in the USA and Indigenous people in Canada were both subject to policies on a continuum with the same foul human nature at the time and both refused admittance to Jewish refugees.

The trumpian Muslim banning and anti-Hispanic rhetoric is an appeal to the same gutter emotion and bully boy feelings of triumph and elation as was 1930s Hitlerism. I'm also remembering hearing of Rwandan "cockroach" characterization of ethnicity, and gook body counts of the Vietnam war era.

What's wrong with the human race is written well in Joshua. Where the people of god receive not just the approval of God to exterminate the Canninites but express orders to do it, at least in their post-genocide writings to justify it. Which of course is BS but it provides ready justification for killing off anyone different or because your people want some other people's land, their stuff, and usually in the heart of the killing to rape before killing. Are we progressively confronting the foul aspects of our given characteristics? Making choices? Or perpetuating them? // both I think, with a particularly bad patch in the 20th centuries and the start of this one, though the body count is dropping.

[ 07. January 2018, 01:50: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

 - Posted      Profile for simontoad   Email simontoad   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Hear hear no prophet. That's a very good post.

[Overused]

--------------------
Human

Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014  |  IP: Logged
Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

 - Posted      Profile for Moo   Email Moo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Moo--

When you were in Germany and trying to understand it later, did you find that the acceptance of authority varied in different parts of Germany?

Not really. There are tremendous differences between various parts of Germany, but principle of obeying authority was entrenched everywhere. ( I love Swabia, where I spent a year.)

I'm not sure that the 'question authority' is an improvement. From what I've seen of it, it's practiced as 'reject authority'. Some people think that all authority should be disobeyed always.

Questioning authority is good; automatically rejecting it is not.

Moo

--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.

Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

 - Posted      Profile for rolyn         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Another reason for the bombing of Dresden is that the Allies were very tired of the war, and wanted to end it as soon as possible.

Indeed so.
Harris believed a Country could be bombed into submission. He was eventually proved right because this was how Japan came to surrender some months later. His only error was try it out on a death or glory regime with an extraordinarily tenacious population behind it.

Some may well ask, —What was the message embedded in the Allied terror bombing campaign in 1945, (of which the Dresden attack was part)? I suspect it was the following:

Dear people of the Central Powers,
We the Allies are entirely pissed off at having paid a massive and terrible price by pushing you back to your borders in 1918, only to be attacked and invaded again 22yrs later.
War is HELL. If you continue deal in war then HELL is what you will receive in return.

--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence

Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

 - Posted      Profile for simontoad   Email simontoad   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Rosa Luxemburg? She was almost an anarchist I think [Smile]

--------------------
Human

Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014  |  IP: Logged
RdrEmCofE
Shipmate
# 17511

 - Posted      Profile for RdrEmCofE   Author's homepage   Email RdrEmCofE   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
His only error was try it out on a death or glory regime with an extraordinarily tenacious population behind it.
Surely Japan under its military government was just such a regime with just such a population behind it, yet it eventually had the desired result, albeit only after two such bombs and Russia declaring war against Japan on another front.

--------------------
Love covers many sins. 1 Pet.4:8. God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not holding their sins against them; 2 Cor.5:19

Posts: 255 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged
Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

 - Posted      Profile for Moo   Email Moo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Japan might have folded because of extreme transportation problems. Before the war, most transportation was by coastal steamer. Submarines put paid to that. Only ten percent of the roads were paved; the rest did not lend themselves to heavy traffic. Most of the railroads hugged the coast which made them vulnerable to offshore enemy ships as well as planes.

Without the ability to move food and ammunition to where the army needed it,it's not certain whether they could have repulsed an invasion.

Moo

--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.

Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Japan is interesting. My father's family quit Germany for Indonesia and then Singapore. They also lived in Manila. The American story before the Japanese invasion in the Philippines isn't positive; liberation from them along to Ukrainian hopes on Germany's invasion was anticipated by some.

Back to Japan: America had expanded into the Pacific with the coup and annexation of Hawaii, conquest of Philippines. Russia had threatened from the North. Japan felt it had no option as America controlled and then cut off oil and steel trade with them. Which would suggest that the cause of the Pacific war in WW2 was economic. America and Japan fought to dominate the Pacific and southeast Asia. America for profit, Japan for the real prospect of failure off the country as a country. Now we have both working things out with China which is more patient to understand that econmics will dictate the eventual outcome of conflict whether by arms or by trade. But then I had a Marxist economics teacher at univ in the days following the discreditable and idiotic failure of America in Vietnam.

So with pseudo Marxist analysis I will suggest that the next big confrontation is the EU versus USA, and the UK is Poland. Russia takes more of Ukraine and gets fully integrated with Turkey and a Russified Turkey. More deaths will mean more movies and novels later.

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
# 2349

 - Posted      Profile for Rossweisse     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Dresden was done as a show of strength, it was done to assist the Russian advance, it was done to send an unequivocal message to a Country which had both threatened war and waged war for 70 years....
Two wrongs and a right? Maybe so. Takes us back to the OP title.

Dresden was a war crime, pure and simple. To firebomb a city known for its art, with no strategic significance, which was filled with refugees, was simply inexcusable. Bomber Harris should have been put on trial himself.

--------------------
I'm not dead yet.

Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
On the other hand the fire bombing of Dresden gave us Kurt Vonnegut's magnificent Slaughterhouse Five.

Which says among other amazing things that if you lynch someone it's better that they aren't well connected like Jesus, that no one should take glee in massacres, that the gospel is about don't kill or shit on nobodies because this really aggravates God. But it's still people who do all the wrathful stuff. The fuckers.

He also said the only sounds after the fire bombing of Dresden was birds.

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

 - Posted      Profile for Ian Climacus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Back to the human race...

Terrible result of bullying.

Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

 - Posted      Profile for simontoad   Email simontoad   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
That girl's Dad still wears a Merv. He looks like Chopper Reid in a cowboy hat! Chopper Reid was part-Sudanese I'm told.

There's an election in my state this year, so the Liberals and their allies in the press are ramping up the fear factor concerning black teenagers. One politician, the despicable Peter Dutton, recently alleged that Victorians were afraid to go out to dinner for fear of being followed home and attacked. African-Australians constitute less than 0.5% of Victorians, but commit about 2% of the crime. That's a bit high, so there is a problem, but as the stats in this ABC article show youth crime is not really about black kids.

Anyway, you don't need to go to Hitler, Stalin, Mao or Pol Pot to find examples of humans behaving badly.

--------------------
Human

Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338

 - Posted      Profile for L'organist   Author's homepage   Email L'organist   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
posted by Rossweisse
quote:
Dresden was a war crime, pure and simple. To firebomb a city known for its art, with no strategic significance, which was filled with refugees, was simply inexcusable. Bomber Harris should have been put on trial himself.
1. War crimes may be many things but the one thing they aren't is pure or simple.

2. Dresden wasn't "firebombed": the proportion of incendiaries dropped compared to HE was small. What couldn't be foreseen was that those incendiaries dropped - ironically most to mark specific targets - would be so close together they'd combine with the prevailing winds and street layout in the centre of the city to create a fire-storm.

3. Cities known for their art/ heritage - so you're thinking Exeter, Bath, Norwich, York, Canterbury I assume. All of those were heavily bombed and, unlike Dresden, none of them had any strategic significance, unless you count the railway hub at York. And Exeter and Bath had large concentrations of evacuees (refugees by another name) who were moved there to escape bombing in other places such as London.

4. Dresden was highly industrialised and was also very much a nazi-supporting city - it is reckoned to be the first to have turned all of its non-essential manufacturing capacity onto a war-footing in 1939, before the invasion of Poland. At the time of the fire-storm raid there were 70,000 workers engaged in producing munitions and other war essentials - and that figure doesn't include those "workers" (slaves in reality) who were brought in from occupied countries or were forced labour from the camps.

5. Dresden was strategically vital for the war in the East. in February 1945 at the time of the raid it was less than 120 miles from the front of the Russian advance and there were good reasons to try to destroy the rail network that was keeping the German army suppled with men and materiel.

6. You may consider Harris a war criminal but clear-headed examination of his decisions doesn't bear that out. And, unlike either Goering or Hitler, Harris didn't operate in a vacuum but as part of a proper, functioning command structure. If Harris had been indicted for war crimes then logic would have dictated that all the other people who agreed the raids be in the dock with him: Churchill, Portal, Eisenhower, etc.

--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
To the OP. Nowt.

"What in the name of all that is holy has gone wrong with us?"

Er, nothing.

"When will it end?"

When we transcend.

"Will it end?"

In the end.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
# 2349

 - Posted      Profile for Rossweisse     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
1. War crimes may be many things but the one thing they aren't is pure or simple. ...

We will have to disagree on this. Even a World War II of my acquaintance who thought dropping the atom bomb on Nagasaki was justified (something else with which I disagree) couldn't excuse Dresden.

--------------------
I'm not dead yet.

Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:

5. Dresden was strategically vital for the war in the East. in February 1945 at the time of the raid it was less than 120 miles from the front of the Russian advance and there were good reasons to try to destroy the rail network that was keeping the German army suppled with men and materiel.

The Allies purposely chose city-centre, civilian targets and ignored industrial, areas on the outskirts of town. Regardless of any other thing, they killed more civilians than necessary. The purpose was to demoralise the civilian population.
Harris never hid this. You can agree with his reasoning or not, but Dresden was never just a tactical target.
Dresden was strategic. But terrorising the population was part of that strategy.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

 - Posted      Profile for Ian Climacus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
We will have to disagree on this. Even a World War II of my acquaintance who thought dropping the atom bomb on Nagasaki was justified (something else with which I disagree) couldn't excuse Dresden.

Perhaps a simple answer, but I remember attending a Catholic Spirituality Course and the topic came up...perhaps via a question. The priest pondered and said it would've been better for them to drop the nuclear bomb on a nearby inhabited island first to show what the US could do. And then go from there. That did make me think.

Just thankful I will never be, or ever was, in such a situation to make such a decision.

Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
# 2349

 - Posted      Profile for Rossweisse     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
...Just thankful I will never be, or ever was, in such a situation to make such a decision.

Ahh-men.

--------------------
I'm not dead yet.

Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
The priest pondered and said it would've been better for them to drop the nuclear bomb on a nearby inhabited island first to show what the US could do. And then go from there.

The intent was to have the civilian population see and fear the capabilities of the US and therefore pressure the government to surrender. If you agree with that, a major city was the logical choice. If you do not, no place inhabited was morally acceptable. Since the first bomb did not produce a surrender, they made the correct choice in terms of their goal.
The morality is a whole separate argument.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

 - Posted      Profile for Ian Climacus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Sorry, I meant UNinhabited. And I did preview post.
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
We will have to disagree on this. Even a World War II of my acquaintance who thought dropping the atom bomb on Nagasaki was justified (something else with which I disagree) couldn't excuse Dresden.

Perhaps a simple answer, but I remember attending a Catholic Spirituality Course and the topic came up...perhaps via a question. The priest pondered and said it would've been better for them to drop the nuclear bomb on a nearby inhabited island first to show what the US could do. And then go from there. That did make me think.

Just thankful I will never be, or ever was, in such a situation to make such a decision.

It wouldn't have changed a thing. Except extend the war. There'd have been no Nagasaki. No surrender. There was no fourth bomb. Able and Baker were in the pipeline for '46.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

 - Posted      Profile for Moo   Email Moo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The intent was to have the civilian population see and fear the capabilities of the US and therefore pressure the government to surrender.

It would have had no effect if the civilian population tried to pressure the government. All war decisions were in the hands of the military leaders. Nothing could be done without the consent of the War Minister in the Cabinet, who was an army general on active duty. If the other army high-ups didn't like what he did, they could remove him from active duty, which meant that he had to resign as War Minister.

The military were quite willing to sacrifice the lives of any number of civilians. They weren't important.

In the spring of 1945 (a few months before the Japanese surrender) the secret police arrested several hundred people "on suspicion of harboring a desire for peace".

Moo

--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.

Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

 - Posted      Profile for Leorning Cniht   Email Leorning Cniht   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
It wouldn't have changed a thing. Except extend the war. There'd have been no Nagasaki. No surrender. There was no fourth bomb. Able and Baker were in the pipeline for '46.

Don't think this is true. You're right that the Able and Baker tests happened in 1946, but there was at least one other Fat Man core ready to go, and it would have been possible to have another pair of Fat Man bombs on Tinian island about a week after Hiroshima and Nagasaki. In the event, no further fissile material left the US.

Conversely, it would have taken several months to produce enough U-235 for an additional Little Boy. (Little Boy was dropped first because it was a dead cert to go off, whereas there was more uncertainty about Fat Man's trigger mechanism. Assuming it worked, Fat Man was much more desirable as a weapon because it was easier to produce plutonium in quantity for the core.

The key is that there was only one Little Boy, so only one bomb that was guaranteed to work.

Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I sit corrected, thank you Ell Cee (or is it Enn?!). I'm amazed that it could have been only a week. I've lived with understanding otherwise for decades.

What ghastlier inevitability awaits us relearning the lessons of history?

[ 15. January 2018, 14:33: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The intent was to have the civilian population see and fear the capabilities of the US and therefore pressure the government to surrender.

It would have had no effect if the civilian population tried to pressure the government. All war decisions were in the hands of the military leaders. Nothing could be done without the consent of the War Minister in the Cabinet, who was an army general on active duty. If the other army high-ups didn't like what he did, they could remove him from active duty, which meant that he had to resign as War Minister.

The military were quite willing to sacrifice the lives of any number of civilians. They weren't important.

In the spring of 1945 (a few months before the Japanese surrender) the secret police arrested several hundred people "on suspicion of harboring a desire for peace".

Moo

Exactly Moo. Korechika Anami was hell bent on national (and personal, which he performed on surrender) suicide AFTER Nagasaki. Thank God for the Emperor and Anami's loyalty to him above all. Otherwise the Kyūjō coup would have worked and millions would have died.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

 - Posted      Profile for Moo   Email Moo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Here is an update on the news story mentioned in the OP of this thread.

Moo

--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.

Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools