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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: At last, evangelicals weigh in on sexual predators
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Well, sort of.
quote:
“You can’t tell anyone Jules, please. You have to take this to the grave with you,” she remembered him saying.
quote:
“Just as I had finished telling my story, Larry immediately spoke up and asked me to clarify. He said something to the effect of, ‘So you’re telling me you participated?’” she recalled.
And before anybody says "she's making it up", he's admitted it and published a statement.
How can this guy still be in ministry and being backed up by his church?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
What he did was way wrong. It was an abuse of another human being and he used the power and implicit trust of his position to do so.
That abuse had consequences for the victim which resonate for her in her life. She should never have had to suffer from what he did because he should damn well never have done that.
Without minimizing any of that ministers are as human as the rest of us. They sin and have sinned. They should have the same chance as the rest of us to accept the fact that they did wrong - that they are broken and have broken the lives of others - and then change their lives.
What would you do if you were in charge of this situation?
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
No, they do not get the same chance. They are in positions of power, they should be removed immediately.
You might forgive an embezzler, but you still don’t let them be treasurer.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
This is a problem with the idea of sin and forgiveness.
The thought that asking for forgiveness is a magic that fixes the problem is one that allows for further abuses and the minimisation of the effect on victims.
Believe that God forgives, fine. But deal with the problem in this world.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
Forgiveness releases the one sinned against.
Forgiveness as a "It's OK darling, you don't have to suffer any consequences" enables bad behavior.
Giving a person a chance to change their life means that the person has to go through the hard work of understanding their own failings and what it is about their life and behaviors made them think what they did was OK. It means accepting the fact of their wrong and dealing with the consequences of their wrong. It means having to go through the process of regaining trust through trustworthy behavior.
It is not waiving a magic wand and making it all go away.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
Since I have a good head of steam up, giving a person a chance to redeem their self does not mean letting them suffer no consequences imposed by other people.
If you want a better idea of what I am saying read this.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You might forgive an embezzler, but you still don’t let them be treasurer.
Never? Even if they committed their crime 20 years ago and have since held down a responsible position and demonstrated their integrity?
Working through that sort of question is not easy.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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John3000
Apprentice
# 18786
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You might forgive an embezzler, but you still don’t let them be treasurer.
Never? Even if they committed their crime 20 years ago and have since held down a responsible position and demonstrated their integrity?
Working through that sort of question is not easy.
It's all about the consequences of them doing the same again. You could let them be treasurer of the high school prom party fund, but of not of the seniors citizens retirement fund. With the guy in the OP, probably the other way around...
Posts: 29 | From: England | Registered: May 2017
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You might forgive an embezzler, but you still don’t let them be treasurer.
Never? Even if they committed their crime 20 years ago and have since held down a responsible position and demonstrated their integrity?
Working through that sort of question is not easy.
Depends on the responsible position and the reason for the embezzlement. And embezzler could have found themselves in a bad situation and stole to get out of it. But sexual assault is not a crime of opportunity or a moral slip.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
Forgiveness releases the one sinned against.
If the abused chooses to let the abuse go, then yes. Anyone else "forgiving" the abuser, fuck no.
quote:
Forgiveness as a "It's OK darling, you don't have to suffer any consequences" enables bad behavior.
This is exactly how loads of Christians believe. Especially, IME, the more evangelical types.
quote:
It is not waiving a magic wand and making it all go away.
Again, loads of Christians seem to disagree. If one believes their words.
Not saying all Christians, probably not even most. But still very many.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
Forgiveness releases the one sinned against.
If the abused chooses to let the abuse go, then yes. Anyone else "forgiving" the abuser, fuck no.
quote:
Forgiveness as a "It's OK darling, you don't have to suffer any consequences" enables bad behavior.
This is exactly how loads of Christians believe. Especially, IME, the more evangelical types.
quote:
It is not waiving a magic wand and making it all go away.
Again, loads of Christians seem to disagree. If one believes their words.
Not saying all Christians, probably not even most. But still very many.
ETA:First thing to be done is that they be stripped of power as they are being charged with breaking any applicable laws. After they have met those conditions, then they can be measured for redemption.
[ 06. January 2018, 15:02: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
I have had to deal with "good Christians" unintentionally fucking up lots of lives in the name of "doing the Christian thing." To my mind that is not Christianity.
I well remember a case where a homeless woman prostituted her Down Syndrome child. Well to do and well connected "Christians" made helping the child, and the woman, so much harder because they knew they were doing the right thing. I wanted to strangle them.
My mind about them has changed since I had to change myself. Now, I do not forgive them as that is not my call. I understand that they should be given an opportunity to learn and grow and redeem themselves, just as I was given that opportunity.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
You might forgive this person, even hire him to work at your church. But you'd be a damn fool to let him have access to, say, the teen girls' ministry. And, as the parent of a girl, I would want to know about this person's history. Because I am responsible for my child's safety.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
NSFW link to the accusations. Scroll don and click on "Amy Smith"
I am assuming this is correct as none of the details here have been contradicted by the perpetrator who admits he had sinned. (carefully not naming anyone for potential legal reasons, as I do not understand the eclectic mix of federal and state law that applies in the US.)
Under UK law this would be rape but I do not know if penetration of the mouth is classed as such in Texas. Whatever the law in Texas, this is a very serious offence that has been alleged.
Forget about forgiveness. A crime against state and possibly federal law has been alleged, and this needs to go to court. The Pastor of the Texan Church and the Associate Pastor, who has been named by the accuser, also need to be fully investigated.
Basically the accused needs to stand down, or be removed from his position, until the legal process has run its course. IF found guilty then after he has served his time, there may be circumstances where he could return to ministry but not in a position where he would be in one to one contact.
Plus the Texan church has a duty of care for the alleged victim.
{I am being ultra careful here as too many countries libel laws apply}
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Last ever sig ...
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Dear God T. I dread to think how they made it worse. And no, don't say.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Yes, let's be very careful about this.
The discussion of matters in the public domain are normally okay. Speculation outside of that will not be.
Please tread carefully through the minefield.
DT
HH
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
It should not be done here. But keeping things under the rose does not serve justice. We have seen this movie already, have we not? The abusing priest quietly shuffled off to another parish or distant diocese, where he can find a fresh set of victims. The bishop, the supervisors, quietly not informing the new flock; the ensuing litigation when it all comes out. Parents demonstrating in front of the church; victims weeping in court; the entire diocese bankrupted by the damage fees. Do we need to do this all over again?
If he is indeed guilty (and if he's confessed it out of his own mouth I would go with it) then I'm in favor of the full name and shame. Let it be that in forty years, when someone is considering hiring him for that part-time teen ministry position, this story is the first one that kicks up on Google.
No more darkness. Let there be light.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John3000:
It's all about the consequences of them doing the same again. You could let them be treasurer of the high school prom party fund, but of not of the seniors citizens retirement fund. With the guy in the OP, probably the other way around...
I think this is it.
What got me the most about this story was a) his reported entreaties to her to cover it up b) his outspoken criticism of recent sex offending cases.
Not to mention c) the church's response.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
After a search which could be wrong.
As she was 17, the age of consent in Texas, she is not legally considered a child and so he cannot be charged with sexual abuse of a child which has no statute of limitation in Texas. Sexual assault including rape in Texas has (or had until recently) a statute of limitations of 10 years. I don't see how federal law would apply. It apparently is legally safe for him to admit knowing the state can't touch him and then frame it how he wishes. He almost certainly knew this when he released his statement.
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I hope she gets a good lawyer and takes him to civil court. Clean him out.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I hope she gets a good lawyer and takes him to civil court. Clean him out.
Unfortunately the statute of limitations has run out for a civil lawsuit also unless he does something like libel her.
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
What got me the most about this story was
... b) his outspoken criticism of recent sex offending cases.
This struck me. But, then, it's always easier to see others' mistakes as different from our own.
I remember going to evangelical conferences and then later hearing the mighty had fallen (gay sex, for instance). I do not know how they do it, picking themselves up and continuing as before. Some ministries should surely be off limits, for the good of the congregation as well as the offender, ensuring they are not in a position to act again nor capable of being accused of acting again. Repentance seems like a very short term prospect these days; forgiveness may be granted as per previous posters, but, and perhaps I'm wrong, I can't see that means no consequences.
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
You might forgive this person, even hire him to work at your church. But you'd be a damn fool to let him have access to, say, the teen girls' ministry. And, as the parent of a girl, I would want to know about this person's history. Because I am responsible for my child's safety.
No, do NOT hire him to work at a church. In any capacity. Too much opportunity and too much danger. For possible victims, and for himself (of reoffending).
If he wanted to *attend* church, that *might* be managed if he could sit away from everyone else, and had a minder at all times. (There was a Ship discussion of this, many years ago. Variety of opinions.)
Also there would be the problem of notifying the congregation, because you can't effectively protect your kids or yourself if you don't know there's danger, what it is, and where it might be coming from.)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You might forgive an embezzler, but you still don’t let them be treasurer.
This. I've been known to use this example, too.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
I've known people who have committed financial fraud and been jailed for it, and then got a job handling money for other people again. One man in particular, who I believed when I knew him to be as recovered from compulsive gambling as anyone could be, lived with the fear that his criminal conviction would become known to his then employer and the life of stability and hope he had built since his incarceration would collapse. He accepted that he shouldn't be working in the field, but he wasn't confident enough to try to get work in another field. It's been a long time since I last met with this guy. I hope things worked out for him. I knew him for about 18 months.
I think it is a no-brainer that people who commit sexual offences should not be allowed to work with children. That requires a criminal conviction. Here, the disability support sector has started something called a blacklist which any employer in the sector can access, and can put people's names on. I don't know the exact parameters of the blacklist, but its meant to cover people who are dismissed because of inappropriate behavior towards clients, but not charged with a crime. There are obvious problems with getting evidence from people with intellectual disabilities and/or communication difficulties. As an employee you kind of think, "hang on", and I did, but I think it is a necessary limitation on our rights to protect those we serve.
On forgiveness, we should always be at pains to emphasis that punishment is a necessary balm for victim and perpetrator alike. A crime is committed, and a number of consequences necessarily flow from that. I believe that Australian law now provides a criminal remedy against people like bishops who do not take the necessary steps to protect those under their care. I'm not sure of the mechanism.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
The alleged victim speaks out.
As stated in the interview, the church (part of the Gospel Coalition, how is that no surprise?) addressed this in church this morning - and is basically standing by their man.
What appalls me here more than anything else, even more than the original incident, is the attitude of the church. quote:
Woodson claims the day after the incident, she went to leaders at that church in Texas, but according to her, they did not contact authorities, never told her parents the whole story, and allowed Savage to resign.
It should also be noted that she says she contacted the guy privately after his Facebook posts about sexual predators; it was when he never answered her e-mail that she took the decision to speak out.
Amongst other things, the church was reportedly praying this morning that her sin would be "healed".
Since #metoo I have made it as clear as I know how that that is not how things are to be in the church I have responsiblity for. I am so done with patriarchy masquerading as godly authority.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
He admitted it and "accepted full responsibility". Have you ever noticed that people who say they accept full responsibility think that gets them off the hook?
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
He admitted it and "accepted full responsibility". Have you ever noticed that people who say they accept full responsibility think that gets them off the hook?
Moo
That's got to be a result of their theology, wherein you admit your sins and God "forgives" them, because salvation and justification are simply about assigning blame. When you admit you sinned, poof! the sin gets transferred to Jesus who paid for it on the cross, and it's all taken care of.
If they had a more robust theology around the idea of sanctification, it might help.
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
Is it theology or crisis management 101?
quote:
I am so done with patriarchy masquerading as godly authority.
Nicely put.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
He admitted it and "accepted full responsibility". Have you ever noticed that people who say they accept full responsibility think that gets them off the hook?
Moo
Yeah, full responsibility after he can no longer be prosecuted. Massively impressed.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Why can he no longer be prosecuted? Is there a time limit?
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
Why can he no longer be prosecuted? Is there a time limit?
Net Spinster mentioned that there was and this had exceeded it.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
What appalls me here more than anything else, even more than the original incident, is the attitude of the church. quote:
Woodson claims the day after the incident, she went to leaders at that church in Texas, but according to her, they did not contact authorities, never told her parents the whole story, and allowed Savage to resign.
I'm confused as to what you would have had them do. According to the information she gave the church ("I told him that Andy had asked me to perform oral sex and unbutton my shirt and I did." - from balaam's link) no crime was committed. I agree it was skeevy behavior (and exactly why many congregations and denominations prohibit any kind of romantic or sexual behavior between the leadership and the congregation), but it doesn't sound like it was criminal. She was (for the purposes of the law) an adult who was able to consent. She didn't say no. He was a college student in his early twenties. There's a good chance that he didn't qualify as a clergyman under the law prohibiting "exploiting the other person’s emotional dependency on the clergyman in the clergyman’s professional character as spiritual adviser," if that's what he can be said to have done. If there's no crime, there's nothing to report to the authorities. I'm unclear why it would have been their responsibility to inform her parents (in other circumstances, a pastor reporting sexual activity to someone's parents would be frowned upon). And he resigned. And left the church.
No, it's not a good situation. It's probably one of the many reasons they had a rule prohibiting one on one contact between him and the youths he worked with (even though those rules frequently get slammed, for example see the reaction to Pence's personal rules regarding contact with women).
He informed his new church of his indiscretion before being hired as a staff member. They say they put in him a leadership position involving adults, monitored his behavior, offered mentorship, etc. He denies any similar incidents with others, they seem confident of this, and I don't understand why so many people are so confident that he's a predator who can't be trusted to even be in a church. While it may be true that there are others who simply haven't come forward yet, it also may be true that there are not.
quote:
Amongst other things, the church was reportedly praying this morning that her sin would be "healed".
They prayed for her healing (as well as the healing of the community and everyone involved in any way), especially as they had been unaware that this was still an issue for her until she went to the media, but I don't believe it was a prayer for her "sin." They also offered to do what they could to help her, but as of right now it's unclear what that might be. She hasn't made any demand for him to step down from his current position, and I'm not sure that would be a reasonable demand for them to agree to at this point (bearing in mind that my knowledge of the situation is incomplete).
quote:
Since #metoo I have made it as clear as I know how that that is not how things are to be in the church I have responsiblity for. I am so done with patriarchy masquerading as godly authority.
So how are things going to be in the church you have responsibility for? Is there no longer any redemption or forgiveness of sin? Or is it just sexual sin that's unforgivable? (If so, why?) Or...?
How is casting people out into the outer darkness from which they can never return because of sin going to motivate them to change their behavior? How is that fulfilling the mission of the church?
Accepting that you will never be able eliminate the existence of sin among the clergy or congregation of the church, what then is the proper response?
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I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
There's a good chance that he didn't qualify as a clergyman under the law prohibiting "exploiting the other person’s emotional dependency on the clergyman in the clergyman’s professional character as spiritual adviser," if that's what he can be said to have done.
From a legal point of view, I don't feel qualified to comment as it's way outside my jurisdiction.
In terms of what actually, um, went down, well none of us were there, either.
From an ethical point of view, though, I'm pretty familiar with the type of church culture. From this, I can confidently assert
1) that people in positions such as the one he occupied at the time, and the people putting him there, are frequently clueless to the point of criminal negligence about authority gradients, conflicts of interest, and the like, and this is a problem. I've experienced this first-hand.
2) that the culture of Gospel Coalition type churches is one in which it is all too easy for women to become victims. On Sunday the church was declaring the whole thing a "satanic attack". It's doesn't take too much imagination to go from there to seeing the woman in question as an emissary of Satan. Again, I've seen this kind of thing first hand, much more than once.
I'm much more concerned about what this reveals about the system than about the individuals involved.
quote:
It's probably one of the many reasons they had a rule prohibiting one on one contact between him and the youths he worked with (even though those rules frequently get slammed, for example see the reaction to Pence's personal rules regarding contact with women).
One of the attendant problems in this environment is that they try to govern these types of issue with rules instead of educating people about behavioural ethics, like basic respect for other people. Rules that define sex as PiV so the kids get up to everything else but, instead of educating people about consent.
quote:
I don't understand why so many people are so confident that he's a predator who can't be trusted to even be in a church.
I've never made this accusation. What gets me about his behaviour is how quick he was to judge others' sexual misbehaviour in the light of what he'd previously done himself - note this is what she says prompted her to act - and how the girl seems to be getting all the blame for what happened (again).
quote:
They prayed for her healing (as well as the healing of the community and everyone involved in any way), especially as they had been unaware that this was still an issue for her until she went to the media, but I don't believe it was a prayer for her "sin."
I had this reliably reported. What is beyond question is that they addressed her and her situation publicly from the pulpit (after a suitably inappropriate worship song) instead of reaching out to her privately. That's making a show of being contrite instead of actually working towards reconciliation.
quote:
So how are things going to be in the church you have responsibility for? Is there no longer any redemption or forgiveness of sin? Or is it just sexual sin that's unforgivable? (If so, why?) Or...?
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) Sorry, but my (unjust) reputation in town is for "encouraging immorality in the church", and our members include at least one person who's done jail time for domestic abose and least one with a murder conviction, as well as historically, a former prostitute.
I'm all for redemption and forgiveness of sin.
What I'm not for is a church system which under the guise of "headship" and "spiritual authority" intervenes to lock people into its own power structures to resolve problems, especially potentially criminal ones, and trivialises, or worse still theologises, abuse of women in particular.
I'm also not for churches failing to acknowledge when they have done such a bad job pastorally. quote:
Accepting that you will never be able eliminate the existence of sin among the clergy or congregation of the church, what then is the proper response?
The proper response is for people to agree to it being dealt with appropriately, whether internally or by the authorities.
In this case, if this guy had responded to the woman's email about his FB posts with "you're right, that was hypocritical of me, I'm sorry", that would have been the end of the story. The fact that he did not suggests a bigger problem.
I believe his behaviour as reported was inappropriate, but that he was also a victim of the system he finds himself in - one that is teaching him nothing relevant, apparently, while letting him publish books on sex and marriage.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Is it theology or crisis management 101?
What churchgeek said, and what you appear to be responding to, is theology. HTH.
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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Accepting that you will never be able eliminate the existence of sin among the clergy or congregation of the church, what then is the proper response?
Yeah, past all the bluster and outrage (which I felt and expressed also, particularly at the bloke's hypocrisy in commenting on other high profile #metoo perpetrators), this is a good question. I dunno. I do respect the thought Eutychus is giving to this however, and find myself in agreement with much of what they are saying.
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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Thinking some more about it (I'm a he, by the way), it seems to me that the principles of restorative justice might offer some ways forward in cases like these; starting by properly acknowledging and taking into account the victim's suffering.
I'm not among those screaming for criminal prosecution, not least because criminal prosecutions rarely give the victim what they need or make perpetrators aware of the harm they have caused.
Legalism on all sides is the enemy here, I think.
Someone else suggested to me that churches' outrage about "sexual sin" could probably be plotted in direct proprtion to their propensity to minimise "sexual sin" when committed by one of their leadership. That certainly seems to apply here.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Higgs Bosun
Shipmate
# 16582
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Posted
About 30 years ago, the BBC produced a series of programmes called "Words into Action", fronted by Simon Mayo. One of these featured a Church of Scotland minister who had committed murder.
His story is discussed here.
Interesting parallels.
Posts: 313 | From: Near the Tidal Thames | Registered: Aug 2011
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
What gets me about his behaviour is how quick he was to judge others' sexual misbehaviour in the light of what he'd previously done himself
...
In this case, if this guy had responded to the woman's email about his FB posts with "you're right, that was hypocritical of me, I'm sorry", that would have been the end of the story. The fact that he did not suggests a bigger problem.
To make a charge of hypocrisy, the underlying assumption needs to be that he doesn't think what he did was wrong. But that doesn't seem to be supported by his statements about it, in which (the ones I've read, anyway) he's quite clear that what he did was wrong, that it shouldn't have happened, and that he repents of it.
I have been greedy in the past. Does that mean I am a hypocrite if I attack the greed of bankers and CEOs?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
he's quite clear that what he did was wrong, that it shouldn't have happened, and that he repents of it.
It's hard to assess what's going on in other peoples' minds and consciences. For a lot of the people I run into, being sorry for what they did seems to be more about being sorry they got caught.
Jim Bakker's notorious and very public "I was wrong" confession over financial fraud does not sit well with his current peddling of inedible food buckets amid threats of an imminent tribulation.
In this case, it is the response to the issue re-emerging, by both the guy himself and his current church, that has me bothered. It shows little or no sensitivity to the victim. She has simply become an object of self-justification for them; her own feelings appear to have been very publicly ignored or dismissed; she "needs healing" from these issues.
Again, the thing that speaks most against him here is that according to the victim, she challenged him privately and he declined to reply. That does not speak of repentance to me; it speaks of trying to bury the issue.
quote:
I have been greedy in the past. Does that mean I am a hypocrite if I attack the greed of bankers and CEOs?
Perhaps not, but you are definitely asking for trouble, especially if a victim of your past greed calls you on it and you brush off their objection.
[ 08. January 2018, 11:54: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
and I don't understand why so many people are so confident that he's a predator who can't be trusted to even be in a church.
Not sure what your sexual experiences have been, but not even the clumsiest of mine were to expose genitals and say "do sex now, OK?".
Without a time machine and a device to read minds, we do not know. But it sounds more predatory than fumbled desire to me. It was certainly abuse of power.
quote:
They prayed for her healing (as well as the healing of the community and everyone involved in any way), especially as they had been unaware that this was still an issue for her until she went to the media, but I don't believe it was a prayer for her "sin."
Well, given the type of Christianity involved and their attitude towards sex, they likely did.
quote:
So how are things going to be in the church you have responsibility for?
Their appointed youth pastor. Pretty sure this imparts responsibility for his actions towards one of their parishioners and for proper response to his general behaviour.
quote:
Is there no longer any redemption or forgiveness of sin?
Completely separate issue from trust.
quote:
How is casting people out into the outer darkness
Not allowing them to have a position
resembling the one they abused is not "casting them into the outer darkness".
quote:
Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
About 30 years ago, the BBC produced a series of programmes called "Words into Action", fronted by Simon Mayo. One of these featured a Church of Scotland minister who had committed murder.
His story is discussed here.
Interesting parallels.
This quote from the article suggests the CofS cocked it up.
quote:
At the time of the controversy, there were those with knowledge of James Nelson who believed that instead of arguing that a murderer should not be allowed to be a minister, those who opposed Nelson should have asked whether this particular murderer should have been the test case. If, as subsequently seemed clear, he showed neither remorse nor contrition, that would have been a stronger argument against his ministry than the crime which preceded it.
Forgiveness is whatever, but the why of a crime is important to what happens later. As are the perpetrator's responses. Nelson beat his mother to death with a truncheon and a brick. This is extraordinary and the reasons that he should have been allowed to be a minister should be more than forgiveness.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Without a time machine and a device to read minds, we do not know. But it sounds more predatory than fumbled desire to me. It was certainly abuse of power.
If there's no evidence of a repeat offence in the twenty years since it happened then it's a little more likely to have been a one-off. And one which, from all accounts, he regretted instantly.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Without a time machine and a device to read minds, we do not know. But it sounds more predatory than fumbled desire to me. It was certainly abuse of power.
If there's no evidence of a repeat offence in the twenty years since it happened then it's a little more likely to have been a one-off.
It is not just what he did, but the why of it as well.
What he did was an abuse of power. That he might not have done the same thing again does not mean that he has not abused power since. All that should be taken into account.
One thing he did actually do is chastise other people for doing what he did, without also revealing that he was also guilty of the same. Not a good look.
quote:
And one which, from all accounts, he regretted instantly.
No. He said he regretted it. Only he knows if he regretted his actions or the consequences.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Gospel Coalition site doubles down with a new article today: Well-behaved women rarely make history.
Seems to be a thinly disguised "STFU".
With a dollop of "how dare you suggest I meant more than I meant?" To get her conclusion you have to add "And making history isn't all it's cracked up to be." If someone thinks it is, they will reach the opposite conclusion. Well behaved women don't by and large change oppressive social structures. If changing oppressive social structures isn't your thing, say because you buy into the Patriarchy and think it's just peachy, then you might find the quote, taken from its context, to be offensive. If however you think that certain social structures need to be changed, and that doing so would definitely make you an historical character, then the quote makes a great T-shirt slogan.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
My thought was that well-behaved men rarely made history either.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
My thought was that well-behaved men rarely made history either.
This seems awfully close to #alllivesmatter
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I don't want to be well-behaved. I want to make history.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I don't want to be well-behaved. I want to make history.
Well, exactly. If that's what well-behaved means, include me out.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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