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Source: (consider it) Thread: Has Other Papal Shoe Dropped?
passer

Indigo
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*Sorry, I cross-posted with Anselmina - I was responding to lilBuddha*
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lilBuddha
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Anselmina,

Yes, family encapsulate the two biggest issues; access and trust. This, along with passing along the family tradition, will always have family as the highest abusers. And I don’t see how anything can change this.
Outside of that though, it is how we view others that affects trust level. And religion has a built-in trust factor that other, non-family, situations don’t.

passer,

The organization which is allowing tracking is also what allowed the hiding and spreading of the abuse.
The issue with online predators is ambush.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
passer

Indigo
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

passer

The organization which is allowing tracking is also what allowed the hiding and spreading of the abuse.
The issue with online predators is ambush.

Again I concur, but at least there is something to target to seek information, no matter how obstructive the keepers are.

The problem with online predators is that they are mostly lone agents, often difficult to locate, and able to vanish into the ether.

It occurs to me that there are three issues being discussed here : prevention, detection, and retribution. All have a common theme, but different agendas and - dare I say - different priorities drive each discipline.

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Anselmina
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Anselmina,

Yes, family encapsulate the two biggest issues; access and trust. This, along with passing along the family tradition, will always have family as the highest abusers. And I don’t see how anything can change this.
Outside of that though, it is how we view others that affects trust level. And religion has a built-in trust factor that other, non-family, situations don’t.

passer,


Yes, that's true. When parents or guardians, even temporarily, give to others the privilege and responsibility of in loco parentis, and the child is abused by the authority figure involved, it's a double betrayal, in that respect. Both child and parents.

Just as we can only live sanely in a society where the general assumption is that parents love their kids enough not to harm them, by not suspecting every parent/guardian we meet; so we naturally give trust to those groups and institutions who explicitly set themselves up as worthy of that extended trust. When these natural, even necessary, assumptions are shown to be groundless, it's hard to know how to continue living sanely in that society.

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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!

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ExclamationMark
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Was the shoe ever really on on this issue?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
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EM--

Well, IMHO, there was at least one shoe on when Francis started, about everything. His handling of the sexual abuse mess wasn't perfect; but AFAIK it was better than all the recent popes.

I figured a shoe might drop at some point, because no one's perfect. I just hoped it would be about something else, and would be manageable.

AFAICT, Francis is messing up badly. His mistakes sound like this has a personal, emotional aspect for him, and he takes some of it personally. Maybe he and Bishop Barros are good friends, and he just can't cope with allegations against Barros. Maybe he's seen other friends go through this. Maybe he can see abuse as a sin, but not a crime. Etc.

I heard a woman on the radio who's familiar with the abuse scandal. She said something to the effect that these recent mistakes shouldn't be much of a surprise, because he had similar attitudes back in Argentina, before his popehood.

I hope he gets this and himself sorted out soon. Otherwise, the RCC is apt to backslide (again, IMHO) on this issue. And with the conviction and confrontation of Nassar, the gymnastics doctor who abused so many girls, the RCC (hierarchy and/or individual clergy and congregations) may decide that the whole thing needs to be buried even *deeper*, because they sure don't want 150 abuse survivors confronting and telling off an abusive priest in open court.

FWIW.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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stonespring
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Is this as simple as a sclerotic, myopic, tone-deaf, reflexively-defensive boy's club just not getting it (and as bad as it is in North America, northwest Europe, and Australasia, the institutional blindness seems to be worse elsewhere, especially in Rome itself) despite all the progress it has made under Francis? Or is it more calculated?

Does the Vatican as an institution (if not Francis himself) think that, since the future, population-wise, of the Church is in the global South (perhaps more in Africa and Asia than Latin America, though), that giving into criticism of clericalism and getting laity too involved in judging church governance would go against a patriarchal, traditional, stratified, deferential culture that still the norm in the Global South (and once the Global North dies a demographic death, may be all that is left)? (As much as the "democratic" nature of Evangelical Protestantism might explain its appeal vs. Catholicism in the South, even it seems to assert itself, once it becomes big and powerful in a very top-down, sexist, and unquestioning-of-authority way).

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Martin60
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And socks.

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
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Re Martin's link:

Good freaking grief. [Mad]

I see that he's sending "the Vatican's top expert on child abuse" to investigate Barros.

Of course, given the the context, I'm wondering in what sense he's an expert...

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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jacobsen

seeker
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Francis was bound to get something wrong eventually. How sad that it's on this topic. But no excuse.

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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:

Does the Vatican as an institution (if not Francis himself) think that, since the future, population-wise, of the Church is in the global South (perhaps more in Africa and Asia than Latin America, though), that giving into criticism of clericalism and getting laity too involved in judging church governance would go against a patriarchal, traditional, stratified, deferential culture that still the norm in the Global South (and once the Global North dies a demographic death, may be all that is left)?

Catholicism already belongs to the Global South, if you're talking about numbers.

I don't know if your criticisms of the RCC in the Global South are justified (they sound rather harsh and culturally biased to me), but the irony is that the Global South benefits from far fewer priests per Catholic than the West does. If the Southerners really are more deferential to the clergy maybe it's because they don't have to put up with them in the flesh!

The fact that the RCC still sends African clergy to Europe (and even to the USA) despite the greater disparity in Africa, doesn't suggest to me that the RCC is somehow kowtowing to a less 'advanced' group of believers. Indeed, my impression is that the Global South is taken rather for granted by the RCC.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

The fact that the RCC still sends African clergy to Europe (and even to the USA) despite the greater disparity in Africa, doesn't suggest to me that the RCC is somehow kowtowing to a less 'advanced' group of believers.

They are kowtowing to filthy lucre. This is a reality in nearly every religious organisation. Got keep the big donors happy.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re Martin's link:

Good freaking grief. [Mad]

I see that he's sending "the Vatican's top expert on child abuse" to investigate Barros.

Of course, given the the context, I'm wondering in what sense he's an expert...

Unfortunately GK, he will be a decent MAN. The findings will be utterly, soundly inconclusive and therefore the veil of presumed innocence in retirement will be drawn.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged



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