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» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Hell   » Southern Baptist Church arse covering. (Page 2)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Southern Baptist Church arse covering.
lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
So. No stops then.

Nope. We'll refuel in transit.
Actually don't see how that last post was outrageous or unreasonable.
I don't know. When I look at what he wrote, I see that he took the time to construct a case that appears to frame the plea as a reasonable, legal route; but zero time to find out what the actual plea was.
I did. Took me less than 30 seconds. As fucking hard as it is to read these stories, I looked further into the why before posting my reaction to his post.
Overreaction? Maybe. I could have asked him to clarify. But I can't get past him going in the direction he did.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
So. No stops then.

Nope. We'll refuel in transit.
Actually don't see how that last post was outrageous or unreasonable.
I don't know. When I look at what he wrote, I see that he took the time to construct a case that appears to frame the plea as a reasonable, legal route; but zero time to find out what the actual plea was.
I did. Took me less than 30 seconds. As fucking hard as it is to read these stories, I looked further into the why before posting my reaction to his post.
Overreaction? Maybe. I could have asked him to clarify. But I can't get past him going in the direction he did.

I read the whole transcript.

My take on the hearing is pretty much exactly on the lines that Eliab took. The judge checked with the defendant that he understood what he was being asked to plead to, that he understood what the plea entailed, that no one had been coerced into it. He also checked with the prosecutor that the victim and the victim's family were in agreement with the charges, the plea bargain, and the subsequent supervision. That's the judge's job. That's due process. The notary takes it all down and records it, so no one can cry foul later.

Except for you, apparently. The plea was agreed by both prosecution and defence, by both perpetrator and victim, and critically, by the judge. None of which is good enough for you. Clearly because you know far better than anyone actually involved in the fucking case.

Clearly, your outrage bus will explode if its speed drops below 50, so gotta keep it moving, right?

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Forward the New Republic

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

My take on the hearing is pretty much exactly on the lines that Eliab took.

Except that he didn't read it before posting.
quote:

The judge checked with the defendant that he understood what he was being asked to plead to, that he understood what the plea entailed, that no one had been coerced into it. He also checked with the prosecutor that the victim and the victim's family were in agreement with the charges, the plea bargain, and the subsequent supervision. That's the judge's job. That's due process. The notary takes it all down and records it, so no one can cry foul later.

The judge asked the ADA if the family were comfortable with this. The ADA said yes. And they were accepting of the plea because the ADA told them the rapist would not serve significant jail time because of his disability. He did not tell them there was any other choice.
Due process, maybe. Justice, no.
Fittingly, though too late for the family, the ADA was terminated.
You, apparently, haven't read much more than Eliab.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
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I think you'll find it's neither mine nor Eliab's fault that the ridiculous plea bargaining system is broken. That's what the court and the judge were working with. The judge checked with all the parties concerned and the family of the victim had their own legal counsel.

Drive on, outrage bus, drive on.

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Forward the New Republic

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Ricardus
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It must surely be possible to draw a moral distinction between not Googling something and being a rape apologist ...

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I think you'll find it's neither mine nor Eliab's fault that the ridiculous plea bargaining system is broken.

This time, it wasn’t the system but one of its practitioners. Namely the ADA
quote:

Drive on, outrage bus, drive on.

Fine. And when I pass you on your counter-outrage scooter,*
I’ll wave.

*I’m assuming it’s a scooter, since you can’t get up to speed.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
It must surely be possible to draw a moral distinction between not Googling something and being a rape apologist ...

Of course. And I don’t think he is a rape apologist.
It didn’t take much effort to find out why the light sentence was fucked. He didn’t look, instead he chose to posit scenarios that might justify it.
That angered me.
Combined with thinking a post from GeeD was his as well, triggered me.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I think you'll find it's neither mine nor Eliab's fault that the ridiculous plea bargaining system is broken.

This time, it wasn’t the system but one of its practitioners. Namely the ADA

He got booted because his boss was drawing heat. Nothing in the subsequent news item said the ADA had done anything wrong in law, nor even suggested anything different. That's the way the Americans run their courts. The family, already lawyered up, could have thumbed a lift with you, but they decided, who knows why, to go with the plea.

I'm going to reserve my animosity for the church, and their insurers, trying to shirk their clear responsibilities.

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Forward the New Republic

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Gee D
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I have made only 2 posts on this thread. Both dealt with the manner in which the lawyers concerned obtained instructions from the insurer rather than the church. Neither in any manner suggested that the questions were suitable or appropriate.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Ricardus
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I think it is natural and, on the whole, praiseworthy, when faced with behaviour that is on the face of it both evil and irrational, to see if any explanation can be found that would make sense of that behaviour - provided of course such explanations are rejected as they become untenable.

I apologise in advance in that although I am generally an insensitive git, even I find this distasteful to type, but I can see one way in which the church's argument could be slightly less vile. AIUI from the links they are not saying that it couldn't have been so bad for the victim because she wasn't a virgin anyway - what they are saying is that her prior sexual experience could have been a contributory factor to her PTSD. If you take the line that sex with a minor is rape both in law and in fact, then she has been raped by at least two people but all the damages are being exacted from only one of them - I agree this is still a pretty fucked up argument but it is slightly less fucked up than the argument as first presented.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Eliab
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
And I don’t think he is a rape apologist.

I'm happy with that.

I think we probably do differ on the exact point at which trying to understand actions which we would both agree are wrong shades into trying to excuse them, but after your last few posts I think that I better appreciate where you are coming from.

For my part, my original posts genuinely were not intended to mean what you took them to mean, and I apologise for the miscommunication.

I'm also sorry for saying that you had lied or deliberately misrepresented my intentions, which I no longer believe that you did, and for anything else that might have caused offence.

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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"

Richard Dawkins

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lilBuddha
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Been away from this thread for a few days because even I get tired of fighting.
Back to address two posts then I am completely done with this thread.

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
He got booted because his boss was drawing heat. Nothing in the subsequent news item said the ADA had done anything wrong in law, nor even suggested anything different. That's the way the Americans run their courts. The family, already lawyered up, could have thumbed a lift with you, but they decided, who knows why, to go with the plea.

Though he fulfilled his legal obligation, he did not do his job properly. He did not give the family the complete story, something to which he admitted. His defence was that they could have asked.
quote:

I'm going to reserve my animosity for the church, and their insurers, trying to shirk their clear responsibilities.

I've enough for both. The legal system, and not just America, often shares responsibility in the less than optimal outcomes of these type of cases.
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:

I'm also sorry for saying that you had lied or deliberately misrepresented my intentions, which I no longer believe that you did, and for anything else that might have caused offence.

Thank you.
I apologise for over reacting. I should have started with a discussion of how I interpreted your posts.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged



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