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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Aging Parents
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
Yikes! ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif) Aravis, your loved one developed a little dementia and turned in Indy Man?
[ 24. January 2010, 02:21: Message edited by: Janine ]
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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Aravis
Shipmate
# 13824
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Posted
Yep. Fortunately my aunt persuaded him to stop driving soon after. I don't remember how soon - that was about 15 years ago now.
Posts: 689 | From: S Wales | Registered: Jun 2008
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
My sister-in-law had a horrendous driving with f-i-l experience last week. They were going to the hospital and she was driving. He's a notorious back-seat driver and kept shouting, "why aren't you turning?" or "what are you waiting for?" The answers to these questions were, twice, "A truck", and once "Three pedestrians". Each time he answered, "Oh, didn't see them."
I think when it gets to the stage that you can't see a truck in front of you, you should perhaps consider giving up driving. Maybe?
My mum lives in another city so doesn't know anyone except us and the in-laws. Her advice was general, but well-received.
She is so organised about her old age that all my friends fall over in awe - she moved out of the family home several years ago, into a much smaller house. At the time she shipped half of everything to my brother in Australia and moved the rest to her little house. Her comment - whatever is in Australia is your brother's, whatever is here is yours. She keeps everything up to date, hoards nothing, and has a great time.
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
I am feeling very guilty. I have spent the last week pretending to be on holiday so I didn't have to speak to my father.
I have used the time to draft and send him a letter saying it is not convenient for him to visit in March. One of the issues is that, like the man Arabella mentioned he just doesn't see things and he's planning a 5 hour drive here along a road which ism't driver friendly, arriving in the city around rush hour.
The guilty feeling is because I know he enjoys being here, and despite his grumpiness and bloodymindedness he's still my dad.
I'm not looking forward to the fall-out after he gets the letter.
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Beenster
Shipmate
# 242
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Posted
Huia - I sympathise. I am constantly in denial about guilt. I know I do my best and sometimes that means saying no or doing nothing to help.
We make decisions and have to live with them, but as long as you make the best decision at the time (and try to be kind in the process), that is all you can do.
To me, feeling guilty is ok and it is normal. i don't fight it but I won't be ruled by it. I accept it as part of the process. And get on with life.
I don't know if that makes sense but having to write such a letter sounds really difficult.
Posts: 1885 | Registered: May 2001
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
All you can do is all you can do. You can drive yourself nuts re-playing all your less-than-stellar decisions and all the times you should-ah could-ah would-ah done things differently, if only...
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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Beenster
Shipmate
# 242
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Posted
Janine, you said better what I wanted to say, thanks!
Posts: 1885 | Registered: May 2001
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
He was OK about the letter when we talked on the phone.
I sent him a cd to make it clear I was't dropping contact, so all is OK.
Huia
[ 28. January 2010, 04:38: Message edited by: Huia ]
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
He was OK about the letter when we talked on the phone.
I sent him a cd to make it clear I was't dropping contact, so all is OK.
Huia
Good news for you, Huia. It's hard to do such things, but sometimes necessary.
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Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.
Posts: 9745 | From: girt by sea | Registered: Aug 2003
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
Had an interesting conference-call with my sisters last night about the way our father's grumpy hot-tempered secretiveness about his household finances is driving our stepmom crazy.
So not only are they having problems paying for medicines, but he may be at the point where he will flat-out refuse to reveal basic information about his finances, things that must be revealed if they're going to get some help from organizations like Catholic Charities.
We're talking about hovering at the mailbox to intercept bank statements, and never letting stepmom see anything from tax documents to credit card bills. We're talking super-grumpy, beyond-curmudgeonly cutting remarks at her grandkids, refusal to engage with them in anything remotely like a grandfatherly way -- when he's been their grandpa figure all their lives. We're talking keeping his "office" (the extra bedroom) locked and carrying the key on his person.
Any individual, single incident she described could have all sorts of explanations -- perhaps he was having a bad day, or she'd never shown the least interest in all these years of marriage/why start now, or she knew he had XYZ baggage when they married...
But all the several things, trends, incidents she described, taken all together, paint a pretty weird, extreme picture of Daddy.
If she wants any peace, she will need to step up and separate her finances from his -- deal with her own (very small) Social Security check -- go to the banks and the IRS herself to request documents that involve her --
She's going to have to gather up a lot of gumption and energy she may not have right now, being ill. If she needs help/support/transportation to do it, it will be us, her stepdaughters, most specifically my in-town, homemaker sister, who has time to help her. I mean, her own two daughters are either timid/dependent/car-less, or just now on a new full-time job and unable to help during business hours.
Even if they were not at a transition-point many elderly hit -- needing help with finances and/or medical expenses -- What would StepMom do if Daddy keeled over right now?!?! How would she handle business if she doesn't know a thing about their business? She doesn't even know if he has a burial policy...
One can only imagine the bubbling nuclear kettle waiting to go off when if/when Daddy perceives his own daughters tag-teaming him, on his wife's "side" against him.
Whooooooooooh.
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
Woo Janine, that sounds serious. One might almost think he has something to hide.
Definitely endorse supporting stepmom to separate her finances - I don't know about the States, but here, if he died, any joint accounts would be frozen until probate was sorted (which can last months, particularly in blended families).
My mum pointed this out to me a few years ago when my spouse was seriously ill, and we took her advice to have an individual bank account each in addition to our joint accounts. Not that there's a lot in either, but it means you can immediately get automatic payments redirected to the individual account in event of a death.
Also, your Dad's behaviour suggests a quite abusive pattern of economic control. If its a new-ish pattern, I would be wondering about brain changes. Might be time for a family meeting with him and stepmom with you guys and her children all present. Check out his worries.
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
It's his brain getting checked into tonight -- he's back in hospital after excessive confusion over the trip taken today, to drive Stepmom to a new doctor's office.
From what I heard about her -- the recent scary hospital stay for her was actually, mostly, down to CO poisoning. They have no flame-type heat in their home, it's all electric; and a simple drive in the car, if that was the source, would not have messed her up so badly that they thought they would lose her, while not obviously affecting Daddy. They think she did it to herself by smoking 2 packs of ciggies a day even while on oxygen. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
As for the tangled mess of debt and inheritance that may be behind Daddy's financial weirdness -- frankly, I don't care about it. Not from the POV of an inheritor. I will help as I can, but by God I don't care what relative may control what property in his stead.
[ 29. January 2010, 00:18: Message edited by: Janine ]
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
That's good. I wasn't talking about inheritance, I was talking about your stepmom's ability to pay her bills in the event of your father's death. My mum was anxious for us to sort it, because she got caught when my dad died. It didn't last too long because it was a simple situation, but it caused her a lot of pain at a time when she didn't need it.
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
Oh, yes, I understand where you were coming from. I see problems for StepMom, not least because she hasn't much income at all unconnected with Daddy's Social Security.
Today's saga installment:
After overnight observation and nothing special found from all the tests -- X-ray, several blood tests, a CT scan of his head, electrocardiogram --
Coordinated, by the way, by the doctor who usually ends up with folks who have no family doctor or GP of their own, a lady we're not pleased with at all since she bungled our mother's hospice coordination in her final very painful days --
Anyway, they cut Daddy loose yesterday afternoon, but he had nowhere to go. StepMom has had enough, has collected her final straw, does not want him back in the home. Since it was hers before they married, he could push the issue legally if he wanted to but he'd not win.
Point-Man middle sister -- the one who doesn't "work", hah, she works plenty, but doesn't punch a time-clock, you know what I mean --
She got on the phone to some of his brothers and sisters. None of them felt they had any room for him (despite probably 5,500 or 6,000 sq. ft. of homespace and 8 spare bedrooms between them).
"Why should he leave? That's his house, she should leave!" Um, no, she told them, that's her house.
"Oh. Well, we have no idea where he can go."
There's the old home place, my deceased Mamman's house -- but they use it for storage now and did not seem eager to remove the equipment and extra furniture from it so Daddy'd have somewhere to stay.
He was pretty dejected, until my sister said "You know, Daddy, we were kind of hoping you would get an apartment in town and be closer to us." His countenance lifted a bit after that.
My home and my sister's home are both at and past capacity; she at least has a sofa, so Daddy is parked there for the weekend. Other sister out of town actually has an extra home, an historic building a couple hours from here -- and that may be an option, but it would put Daddy hours from his community and doctors.
We are not comfortable with him driving, anyway, at least until some sort of resolution re: his current possible creeping dementia -- and the little car we bought for him & StepMom when theirs died is actually in her name, since he was in hospital at the time, so she's got that. Good for her, I say, 'cause she'd never be able to get one on her own.
Sister describes standing around Daddy's bed at hospital, herself and StepMom, and Daddy's two sisters and surviving brother: "Daddy said he wanted me or Uncle C. to hold his valuables (wallet, ID, a little cash etc.). StepMom -- Daddy's WIFE -- had to hand her HUSBAND'S wallet over to his brother, rather than safeguarding it herself. Uncle C. took it home."
Wouldn't shock me if that was StepMom's final straw. It certainly is symptomatic of the weird way that extended family acts toward outsiders. Even if you've "married in" many years ago, the moment there's trouble in Paradise the blood-kin can do no wrong and you can do no right.
The FG's illustration is, if I suddenly decided to live life on the street as a drug-dealing bank-robbing prostitute, the Family would side with me against him, making it somehow his fault.
I say, soap operas are no match for Real Life.
There is no waiting list at a respected elder/disabled apartment community nearby; that's something he should qualify for. Also, Daddy has an appointment for the usual medicine-related blood tests at the VA clinic Feb 11. Sister called them and arranged for a psych eval at that time.
More later.
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
Sister called them and arranged for a psych eval at that time.
Any way that could be done sooner? I know it's less than two weeks away, but given what you've said, I don't know that I'd want to wait that long.
Although, thinking about how those things usually go, your sister probably did an amazing job getting it arranged even that soon.
I'm so sorry for your StepMom and your Dad. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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The Magenpie
Apprentice
# 12746
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Posted
My late Mother in Law lived to 98 and still had her faculties to the end. However she was blind and going deaf but insisted on living in her own home, fortunately near us so we could see her regularly. She had to spend a month in a nursing home following an illness (she had heart failure)and this only succeeded in accelerating her decline; the home was immaculate, the bedrooms very modern and the staff were superb BUT it was the lack of mental stimulation from other residents which frustrated the m-i-m the most. I recall my grandparents wanting to die at home as to be "called to the Lord" in a nursing home was a humiliation. We asked my m-i-m to live with us, but she declined on the grounds that it wasn't fair to us (I thought the world of her).
If they have their mental faculties, then their own home is the best option for them, not necessarily us.
As for not letting on about their financial means, that is a hangover from victorian society, what we may call "minding our own affairs". My father in law lived to 89 in a house I would have condemned. When he died he left an estate of nearly 7 figures which shocked us all and benefited the revenue. How I wish he had used this money to help my mum in law to manage a little easier (she was still washing in a twin tub when she passed away).
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"The answer. What is the answer? In that case, what is the question?"
- Gertrude Stein
Posts: 13 | From: Shakespeare's County | Registered: Jun 2007
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
My Daddy's apparent over-controlling, secretive and/or paranoid behavior about financial matters may stem from:
1) His having little or nothing but a lot of debt he's trying to manage on his small retirement income, and it drives him nuts; or,
2) His actually having squirreled-away secret assets that he is trying to protect from... whom? He had big IRS trouble in years past, which he blamed on my mother's mismanagement... but, since he only sent home half his pay when he worked overseas, what did he do with all that major income he kept all those years? Swiss bank accounts? (Hope it wasn't Nigerian bank accounts, Heaven knows where it ended up, then...) It takes two to waste two separate piles of money... or,
3) He himself, in his own name, has nothing, but his siblings have the portions of his assets and/or inheritance from the previous generation's estate, which are thought of as his, but they hold it in their names to prevent
* a) the IRS
* b) his own wasteful/gambler's ways or
* c) current spouse from getting into it?... or,
4) None of the above, he's just being the way that nutty family is... Pappa Charlie took a 2x4 to a cousin (who IMO likely needed it, but really, a 2x4?!?)... They want zero communication with you and tell you nothing about the goings-on when their kids and grandkids hit milestones but they get flaming mad because you don't send them wedding announcements... None of them will even pass the time of day with the "outlaw", the widow of the brother who died, but she's the one who takes responsibility for the family tomb (I have taken it on the past couple years, hope to make it mine entirely. She's got enough on her plate.) They don't take care of her needs in any way, and she's a widow with kids still to raise, but she's been keeping bright the resting place of their blood kin...
It can drive you nuts if you think about it too much. And I wonder why my hair falls out...
Sister will be looking into moving up that appointment for check-up & psych evaluation if she can, but considering all the regional VA has on its plate since the destruction of Katrina in New Orleans, she did a minor miracle to get that appointment as quick as she did.
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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Seeker963
Shipmate
# 2066
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Posted
I'm not quite clear whether this is a general thread on aging parents and I'm not even clear whether I want "advice". I may just want a place to vent.
I visit my parents 2 to 3 times a week, dedicating 5 or 6 hours each visit to things like just being with them, doing lots of small "housekeeping" items (they live in an assisted living facility) and "business" items, taking them out for meals, meetings, and recreational shopping which my mother loves.
My mother is a complainer. She always has been and it's not getting any better as she gets older. It's the same old memes that she's been repeating for most of her life: everyone is against me, the government is conspiring to take our money, you children are conspiring to take our money, the doctor is conspiring to take our money, the assisted living facility is conspiring to take our money, etc., etc.
Today it was five hours of extra-intense, extra-anxious paranoid complaining. I could tell when we arrived that she was in a bad mood and I put it down to "cabin fever". It's about 5 degrees Farenheit here and they won't go out (thank goodness for that!) when it's so cold.
But I'm worn out. It's hard not to feel like "I should fix this untrue, paranoid scenario for my parents". I managed not to let my buttons be pushed during the visit but now I want to variously punch someone in the face, sleep for 48 hours and consume two pounds of chocolate.
What drives me even more crazy is other people telling me that I should consider her situation and see things from her point of view. I truly think that I sympathize as much as I can do without actually being in the situation myself. I really do "understand" (as much as I can) that they have lost freedom and control and autonomy. Heck, we moved 3000+ miles to a different country to be with them; is that not considering their situation? But I honestly don't think that there is much more I can do since I can't wave a magic wand and make their disabilities go away.
Since all the anger and venom gets saved up for family, I also get to hear from others what wonderful, positive people my parents are (actually my dad is, for the most part.)
Where is the :scream: icon when you need one? Thanks for listening.
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"People waste so much of their lives on hate and fear." My friend JW-N: Chaplain and three-time cancer survivor. (Went to be with her Lord March 21, 2010. May she rest in peace and rise in glory.)
Posts: 4152 | From: Northeast Ohio | Registered: Dec 2001
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
Janine - my gran thought she had loads of money, was paranoid-tught with it, used to say her only regret was that she couldn't be in the room when the will was read out. Turns out she didn't have any more than we knew she had - a modest house, a modest amount of savings, bringing in a modest income. But fixation on money seems to have the special curse of driving people crazy - or crazier than they would be otherwise.
Seeker - that is so hard - a good friend of mine had the same. Ironically, the mother finally developed Alzheimer's and had a change of character for the better for her last year or two. I hope you can find the strength to find a way through this.
My mum now has an additional cross to bear - she has long had a problem with constipation and managing it with medication of various kinds has been difficult, but now it seems to be becoming impossible. I won't go into detail, but it seems to be all or nothing, if you get my drift, which is extremely unpleasant for all concerned and distressing and humiliating for her.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Is she hasn't already had one, a continence assessment from a district nurse can be helpful - they can advise on management and also prescribe regular deliveries of the right type of incontinence wear if appropriate. May also tell - from descripztion - if your mum might have a degree of rectal prolapse (which can be operable).
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
When you can't get your body to do what it's always done reasonably well, that's a big disappointment.
My Mom-in-Law, in her final years, had so many health problems and so many medications for them and so many medications to help her control the side effects of the other meds -- it's a miracle she kept it together physically and mentally so long as she did.
She used to tear up and call herself stupid because she couldn't perform various feats of strength and balance she'd have been able to years before. She was petite, but had always been Rosie-the-Riveter all her adult life. As a preacher's kid, I imagine she'd been expected to do a lot even as a child.
There's a hidden blessing, I suppose, in fighting a problematic physical condition all your adult life, before you age -- If you've always been coping with something that needs a lot of management, such as a hindered ability to walk or chronic Crohn's or something, at least maybe it doesn't come as a total shock when you're 95 and can't manage a marathon any more.
Has anyone else noticed how small your elderly parents get -- physically, you know -- when you're grown and caring for them? Just as your early-childhood school is so much smaller when you visit as an adult -- just as those jeans you wore in high school look so very tiny when your age and waist size have caught up with each other 25 years later...
When I saw Daddy in his hospital bed this latest time, his wispy white hair had taken on an upright surf-wave sort of position over his head. He looked like a Munchkin.
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
{P.S. Seeker: I realize the topic isn't the same, but the process of so much vile stuff spewing out of their mouths works the same way with some of my older relatives who are extremely racially prejudiced.
I sympathize -- all I can do to deal with it is let it roll like water off a duck, and live my life as I live it no matter what they think.
I harbor no illusion that I'm going to change them at their ages; if in a time or place where I have some control I can ask them to refrain from the worst of it (my home, my car, whatever) but those times are of necessity few and won't change anything, y'know?
You have my empathy for sure.}
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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Seeker963
Shipmate
# 2066
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
{P.S. Seeker: I realize the topic isn't the same, but the process of so much vile stuff spewing out of their mouths works the same way with some of my older relatives who are extremely racially prejudiced.
I sympathize -- all I can do to deal with it is let it roll like water off a duck, and live my life as I live it no matter what they think.
I harbor no illusion that I'm going to change them at their ages; if in a time or place where I have some control I can ask them to refrain from the worst of it (my home, my car, whatever) but those times are of necessity few and won't change anything, y'know?
You have my empathy for sure.}
Thanks for the empathy. I do see what you mean because there is something physically exhausting about being in the physical presence of someone who is extremely angry for 5 or 6 hours - which was the case yesterday. I think it takes a lot of physical energy to actually b angry too. (Goodness, I'm getting tired just thinking about it!)
I am under no allusions that I'm going to change my mother. Which is the difference between me and another one of my siblings. One of the staff at the retirement center (not a healthcare professional) to whom my mother complains a lot also tries to change my mother and to "get" me to change her. I firmly believe that one is on a hiding to nothing when one tries to "change" other people. I can't even imagine how exhausting that would be.
Now that I write that, though, I think some of the exhaustion comes from unconscious "buying in" to the idea of "You should make me happy". Yesterday we had the same endless discussion about "Why won't you take me to see other retirement places; any place would be better than this." Answer: "a) I said I'd take you when you want to go, just tell me and we'll look; b) I personally think this is the best place within a 500 mile radius; c) You weren't even happy in your dream house, so why would you be happy here?" (Point c is true but I don't say it out loud!)
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"People waste so much of their lives on hate and fear." My friend JW-N: Chaplain and three-time cancer survivor. (Went to be with her Lord March 21, 2010. May she rest in peace and rise in glory.)
Posts: 4152 | From: Northeast Ohio | Registered: Dec 2001
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Seeker963
Shipmate
# 2066
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
Try it.
I have said this when she is in a better mood. I don't try it on the "Everyone is conspiring against me" days.
It occurred to me that your "tangential" connection with what I'm saying and with your racism story may not really be all that tangential at all. It's very likely an inner unsettled-ness, "I am disquiet and insecure inside myself and I have no idea why" which gets projected outward on to allegedly evil others who are "trying" to degrade "our" lives.
The angry energy I've seen from people expressing racist ideas is very similar to my mother on her bad days.
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"People waste so much of their lives on hate and fear." My friend JW-N: Chaplain and three-time cancer survivor. (Went to be with her Lord March 21, 2010. May she rest in peace and rise in glory.)
Posts: 4152 | From: Northeast Ohio | Registered: Dec 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Becoming paranoid and accusing everyone of everything is apparently quite common in extreme old age (and also, interestingly, in younger people who have a bad infection). When it happened to me the first time I took the accusations personally and found it very upsetting. Fortunately when it then happened with another relative I recognised the pattern and was able to step back and see it as an illness rather than a personalised accusation. It is very hard to do this, though, especially if it is someone you are close to.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Seeker963
Shipmate
# 2066
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Becoming paranoid and accusing everyone of everything is apparently quite common in extreme old age (and also, interestingly, in younger people who have a bad infection). When it happened to me the first time I took the accusations personally and found it very upsetting. Fortunately when it then happened with another relative I recognised the pattern and was able to step back and see it as an illness rather than a personalised accusation. It is very hard to do this, though, especially if it is someone you are close to.
Chorister, I know that and this is what everyone keeps telling me. But my mother has been doing this all her life. I could tell you stories.
All of us kids were grounded for 2 weeks once when she misplaced her scissors. Reason for grounding: We hid her scissors in order to drive her crazy. (Mention "scissors" at a family gathering where mom is not present and watch the jokes fly!)
She went 5 months once - about 20 years ago - not speaking to me because she asked me what I thought of a dessert and I said "It's a bit too sweet for my taste." Reason for cold shoulder: "All of you family are against me and I can never do anything right."
Then there was the time my dad said "I don't think there are cardinals out this time of year" and she didn't speak to anyone in the family for a week. Reason: "Everyone is against me."
I think she is paranoid because she is paranoid, not because she's old. And she's not really that old, just disabled.
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"People waste so much of their lives on hate and fear." My friend JW-N: Chaplain and three-time cancer survivor. (Went to be with her Lord March 21, 2010. May she rest in peace and rise in glory.)
Posts: 4152 | From: Northeast Ohio | Registered: Dec 2001
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
Ooh, Seeker, just a scary thought --
What happens when someone is paranoid --
Either "classic" paranoid/schizophrenic, or so extremely negative and anxious that it comes out as a persecuted feeling anyway --
And then as they become older they enter a time of dementia, with its so-often paranoiac expression?
What does paranoid squared look like?
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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Seeker963
Shipmate
# 2066
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Posted
Janine:
It's the second thing, not the first.
And I don't think my mother is demented either. She's on a lot of heavy pain medication, including some controlled substances and there are periods when she is just "high".
That said, I want to put in a defense for the elderly. I dealt with my parents' Medicare Part D this year. Remember I'm coming at this as a "foreigner" with no experience. First of all, I had to learn the difference between Parts A, B, C and D. Then I had to get a list of the medications my parents are taking. Probably about 30 in all.
Then I had to figure out which was the best plan. My sister - who is a nurse with a lot of experience in pharmacology - and I did this together. Her expertise was needed about what the drugs are for and I think my background in institutional finance helped in trying to determine the most cost effective plan; the issues were more like reading a financial prospectus than anything medical. Even so, there were so many choices and so many permutations, it's hard to know if we got the absolute "best" one. We also tried to find a provider with decent service. Meanwhile, my parents had a pile of mail marketing these insurance services to them. My mother literally gave me carrier-bags full of the stuff. I would not exaggerate to say that the pile would have been over a foot high if I'd stacked them up.
So, we have older people with chronic illnesses, sometimes in a significant amount of pain, and we want them to deal with all this efficiently. And, if they can't, we say "There, there, they are becoming demented." You know what? I didn't really want to cope with it and I found it stressful. And I'm fairly confident that I probably coped with it better than about 90% of the population. Life is crazy sometimes.
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"People waste so much of their lives on hate and fear." My friend JW-N: Chaplain and three-time cancer survivor. (Went to be with her Lord March 21, 2010. May she rest in peace and rise in glory.)
Posts: 4152 | From: Northeast Ohio | Registered: Dec 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Seeker963:
Chorister, I know that and this is what everyone keeps telling me. But my mother has been doing this all her life. I could tell you stories.
Yes, I had taken on board what you were saying. And I appreciate that some people are always like this. However, I was making a general contribution to the thread, rather than addressing a specific post.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
If they aren't already on their way to Dementia Land, wading through the nasty piles of paperwork having to do with Medicare & Plans may kickstart them on their way.
If someone ever managed to make paperwork from insurance companies and government insurance easy to understand, written as normal people speak, I might have a heart attack.
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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Seeker963
Shipmate
# 2066
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
quote:
Originally posted by Seeker963:
Chorister, I know that and this is what everyone keeps telling me. But my mother has been doing this all her life. I could tell you stories.
Yes, I had taken on board what you were saying. And I appreciate that some people are always like this. However, I was making a general contribution to the thread, rather than addressing a specific post.
I misunderstood! I apologize.
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"People waste so much of their lives on hate and fear." My friend JW-N: Chaplain and three-time cancer survivor. (Went to be with her Lord March 21, 2010. May she rest in peace and rise in glory.)
Posts: 4152 | From: Northeast Ohio | Registered: Dec 2001
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Campbellite
Ut unum sint
# 1202
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
If someone ever managed to make paperwork from insurance companies and government insurance easy to understand, written as normal people speak, I might have a heart attack.
But they don't WANT the paperwork to be easy to understand. That way people will make mistakes, buy overpriced insurance, and/or insurance that doesn't cover their meds (so the Insurance Co. won't have to pay out for them.)
Insurance companies are not in the business of providing health care. They are in the business of making Money. And the best way to do that is to collect as much in premiums as they can, and pay out as little in coverage as they can get away with.
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I upped mine. Up yours.
Suffering for Jesus since 1966.
WTFWED?
Posts: 12001 | From: between keyboard and chair | Registered: Aug 2001
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Seeker963
Shipmate
# 2066
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
Insurance companies are not in the business of providing health care. They are in the business of making Money. And the best way to do that is to collect as much in premiums as they can, and pay out as little in coverage as they can get away with.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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"People waste so much of their lives on hate and fear." My friend JW-N: Chaplain and three-time cancer survivor. (Went to be with her Lord March 21, 2010. May she rest in peace and rise in glory.)
Posts: 4152 | From: Northeast Ohio | Registered: Dec 2001
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
Of course. Businesses run on profits.
I don't see government entities that claim to "provide" health care as any better, though. They seem to run on increasing themselves.
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I am so, so tired. We will try to move all of Daddy's belongings to a storage facility Saturday.
At this point, he's camped out on my sister's sofa; he has no privacy or space to call his own. He's lively from time to time, but often rather dejected-looking. He can't work up any enthusiasm for the elder-apartments in the area, because he wonders if StepMom will somehow strip his pension away in a divorce settlement. He wants to stay in limbo until StepMom is settled.
She has continued to say odder and odder things in telephone conversations we've had with her, trying to organize all this.
She doesn't want Daddy there without police escort; she plans to get a restraining order... To restrain him from what? Being a curmudgeon and secretive about his money? He's never laid a hand on her, and it would be very very hard to build up an abuse case out of how he's supposedly been speaking to her and handling the household bills.
She told my sister that she knew Daddy had been messing about in her house while she wasn't there, because she saw some papers and things had been organized. (Me, I would just be happy that the Neatness Fairy had stopped by.)
Sister is a believer, she understands that a "soft answer turneth away wrath" -- but she did speak up quite reasonably, stating that Daddy cannot drive, had not been anywhere away from Sister since he left the hospital, and that we did not drive him to their house.
To which StepMom replied, "Well, he's so evil, he probably thought of some way to do it." ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
Some way to spirit himself -- unseen by either the folks he was with on this end or the folks at his old home on the other end -- 20 miles up the bayou?
Shoot. If he had a talent like that he'd surely not be in the pitiable situation he's in now.
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
<< cue Mission: Impossible theme >>
Tomorrow morning, several family members will suit up appropriately for the (hopefully dry) cold --
Then they will convene for breakfast at a little diner/truckstop place near Daddy's home -- former home -- about 20 miles up the bayou. They will have some breakfast, and a sheriff's deputy will meet them there.
All will roll to Daddy's old place, to load up a truckful or two of his belongings, while the deputy is there to witness how folks behave and make sure nothing untoward occurs.
Actually, we'd never have asked for the deputy, except that StepMom's rambling invective has been getting weirder and weirder, and she was the one who mentioned not wanting Daddy there without police there.
The latest weirdness consisted of denying that Daddy's usual prescription drug package had arrived by mail this week. This after StepMom had already told my sister that it had. Twice. On two different occasions. This was apparently a simple lie she told, because when she appeared to want to wriggle out of the big Saturday Move-Out tomorrow, Sister asked if she could at least drop by (alone, no Daddy) to pick up his meds today.
And, after pushing for Daddy's stuff to be moved out ASAP, multiple times, she suddenly doesn't want to come up with a time that's convenient for her, to have us out there to pick up his stuff. One thing she told Sister today was that she was in no hurry to have us retrieve his stuff, because she is now "finding all kinds of stuff I never would have thought of".
Apparently it has just dawned on her that she can rifle through his stuff, and she suddenly would like it to stay a while. Let's hope she doesn't change the position of years and suddenly start to enjoy handling his guns.
She had asked that we come tomorrow. Those who are able to be there for the morning have made arrangements to do so; those of us who are available after lunch are going to be on standby, waiting to hear how the first round went.
Why wasn't she cutting loose with this sort of stuff before she decided it was time to dump Daddy?
I always knew she was a weak sort of person in many ways -- never held it against her, I have my own weaknesses -- but she was able to act like a civil, adult person all these years. Why is StepMom going to pieces now?
We can't waffle around waiting for her. We cannot stack the lives of five separate extended-family households in some sort of holding pattern, forever circling the airport of her mind.
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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Otter
Shipmate
# 12020
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Posted
One guess is that dealing with Daddy going to pieces was forcing her to hold herself together. Now that he's gone, she's lost that. Or it could be a reaction - now that she can relax a little, she fell apart a lot; hopefully to be followed by a return back toward normal. Ish.
Good luck on the stuff-pickup.
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The plural of "anecdote" is not "data", YMMV, limited-time offer, IANAL, no purchase required, and the state of CA has found this substance to cause cancer in laboratory aminals
Posts: 1429 | From: Chicago, IL 'burbs | Registered: Nov 2006
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
It's hard to say exactly what's the deal with either StepMom or Daddy. Perhaps he's "behaving" for us, while she's gone completely to pieces in the freedom of not worrying about him any more. It makes her look nuts and him look normal, if a bit deaf.
It's as if she's reveling in the glamour being the star, inside her head, of the soap opera of her own life. Her own daughters have said some things that indicate they feel she's gone over some sort of edge these past few days.
After work and appointments this morning, FG and I checked in to see if there would be an Afternoon Contingent needed for the Great Haulage.
Apparently all went well and smoothly and Daddy was successful in packing all the stuff he wanted into the boxes and trucks -- after the sheriff's deputy made StepMom leave the area.
He could do that -- it still being Daddy's residence, even though he's in the process of moving out. One wonders if the deputy had to actually threaten to arrest her to get her to go, or was it more like "Take my advice, clear out for a while, ma'am"? I figure Sister will have more to say when she has time for a conference call or email later, not wanting to blather details in Daddy's hearing.
After they complete Daddy's business at the selected storage facility -- neither of us has room to store a couple truckloads of his household items, and they need to be gone over and cleaned and re-boxed, or whatever Daddy wants to do with them, anyway, after years of steeping in cigarette smoke -- after that , all will head home to Sister's house for a nap. Frankly, although Daddy is "beat", I bet they're all tired.
Will be attempting to slip some $$$ into Sister's hand later today -- it's not as if it costs much to feed Daddy, and he has his little retirement income for meds and personal expenses -- but there's at least more gasoline being burned since she took him in, and more washing being done, and more cooking than she's done for years, with her sons all grown and Bro-In-Law working out of town at times.
Not to mention, I have no idea if she paid for the storage or Daddy did. I bet she did.
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
My project all day, after church, has been to wash a mountain of clean laundry.
That is, I'm running all Daddy's clothing through sometimes two or three washes, using a disinfectant even -- not because anything is dirty, but because it's taking that much effort to wash the cigarette smoke out. And he doesn't even smoke, he quit years ago. I guess it's all from StepMom's 1.5 packs a day.
Even after all that, some particular items -- whether because of fabric, or where they'd been stored, I dunno -- some items still reek. I have festooned the carport with coveralls, and the Botany 500 is in the fig tree out back. A couple days outside may help.
You know how a sound, a color, a scent, will sometimes drag you back to another time? The last time I had to resurrect a mountain of otherwise perfectly lovely clothing, fighting to rid it of years of smoke buildup, was when we shut down Mama's home in her final days.
Deja vu. Or deja phew.
It's different, because Daddy's certainly not in the agonizing final few days of a battle with cancer. Assuming we keep him on track with his health concerns, he'll be with us yet awhile.
It's still been a much more melancholy and deeply touching experience to wash the man's clothing, more so than it should be.
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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Campbellite
Ut unum sint
# 1202
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Posted
I had a conversation last week with my sister regarding Mom. She said that Mom still recognizes her as family, but has no idea who she is.
She also said that Mom referred to our step-father (to whom Mom has been married for over thirty years) as "Daddy".
And while my sister was taking Mom out for a ride, she kept commenting, "Sure is hilly around here." (This is in Memphis, it's almost as flat as Kansas) Sister asked "What do you mean, It's hilly around here?" Mom said, "Well, it's a lot more hilly than back home."
"Where's back home?" sister probed. "Autumn Ave" Mom replied. Mom hasn't lived on Autumn Ave (in Memphis) since 1953.
From the sound of things, Mom has regressed to where she is happily living in 1939. At least it seems to be a happy place for her.
For Rena
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I upped mine. Up yours.
Suffering for Jesus since 1966.
WTFWED?
Posts: 12001 | From: between keyboard and chair | Registered: Aug 2001
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Aravis
Shipmate
# 13824
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Posted
This recognition thing is interesting. I've seen this with an elderly lady who lived next door to us over 10 years ago - she has advanced dementia and lives in a nursing home near where I work, so I occasionally visit her at lunch time. It's a year or so since she's been able to say anything more than "yes" or "no", but after a few minutes recognition quite clearly comes into her eyes when she looks at me, though I don't think she knows who I am or understands what I'm saying.
The other interesting thing is that, though she mostly mutters completely unintelligibly, the muttering is very definitely in her native Lancashire accent!
Posts: 689 | From: S Wales | Registered: Jun 2008
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harmony hope
Shipmate
# 4070
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Posted
I just wanted to say that my heart goes out to all of us trying to deal with ageing parents - the practicalities and the emotions involved.
Janine, do hope your situation improves soon.
Harmony Hope
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'God grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can and Wisdom to know the difference.'
Posts: 645 | From: gentle rolling Oxfordshire countryside | Registered: Feb 2003
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
Something made me really consider the elderlies and possible dementia yesterday.
Was out with the FG last night, grabbing a quick inexpensive supper at Sam's, of all places. (You can get a lovely kosher/beef hot dog with all the usual trimmings, if you want them, and a drink the size of a shower stall, for two people, for like $6. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) )
Anyway, one of the other dozen shoppers in the cafe area was this striking, lovely, middle-aged lady. I knew for sure I know her. But I couldn't remember where from.
It wasn't this great awkward moment, I wasn't right next to her... but, still! If I knew her from some of the churchlady events over the years, it would be appropriate to greet her with a hug. If I knew her from her work in a doctor's office, where she'd been part of the group taking care of me, there's another type of greeting.
Y'know? It actually dwelt on my mind enough to bemuse me, to stop me from greeting her at all, and to make me not the best conversational partner for the FG, over our chili kraut onion conies...
I'm sure that's an experience everyone has.
When you either start into the beginnings of a form of dementia, or at least start fearing that you are "losing it"... Does that bemused preoccupation strike you more and more? When you're operating with less and less input, from the mind/memory and from the environment?
What a strange feeling! It could be a very scary feeling, if it happened often, or in a vital situation. Rather than just over a hotdog, y'know. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
I had the wonderful and hilarious experience of a 95 year old vicar (not retired) running a parish and behaving like something in 'Last of the Summer Wine' (UK subscribers might understand). Beautifully dressed and elegant, he would preside over meetings and then drive hair raisingly fast into town in a way that would have shamed a teenage boy racer. Ignoring double yellow lines (and amazingly tolerated by traffic wardens)he convinced me of the existence of the Deity by his total unaweness of traffic lights with seeming impunity.
As a teenager I was convinced that extreme old age was just a bag of laughs and that we were the same in spirit. I understand that this was rare but it made me lose fear of old age.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Janine, I had that experience on a train. I knew I knew the smartly dressed woman sitting across from me, but I just couldn't think from where. So I gave her a smile and said "hello" in a friendly fashion and she smiled politely and said "hello" back.
Clue no. 1 - she obviously didn't recognise me, either!
So, as she was about my age, I decided she probably had kids ages with mine, and I must know her from some child-related activity way back. I figured we'd both known each other as jeans-and-T-shirts mums, and it was her smart suit that was confusing me. I kept surreptitiously glancing at her thinking - Mother-and-Toddler? No. Tadpole swimming? (Mentally envisaging her in a swimsuit) No. Library story group? Maybe.
Eventually it got too much, and I leaned across and said "I'm terribly sorry, but I just can't remember where I know you from." and she replied "I'm a politician" and the penny dropped!
I'd been trying to conjure up mental images of Wendy Alexander erstwhile leader of the Labour Party in Scotland, in a swimsuit.
(Ok, I know this doesn't work as a story outside Scotland, but substitute Hilary Clinton for Wendy Alexander and it might make sense.)
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
As a teenager I was convinced that extreme old age was just a bag of laughs and that we were the same in spirit. I understand that this was rare but it made me lose fear of old age.
I guess we'll know for sure when we get there.
Some call old age "God's waiting room." We find ways to amuse ourselves while waiting for the doctor. I'm sure we'll find equally amusing ways to occupy ourselves while waiting for God too.
As for me, I find consolation in Tennyson's Crossing the Bar. Judging from the notes following the poem on the link I quoted, so do countless others.
There's an audio clip of "Crossing the Bar" to the lovely setting by Gwyneth Walker. The choral group to which I belong sang it in concert two years ago. (That's my group in the clip, but that particular recording was made several years ago, under a different director, and before I joined the group.)
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
We sing that in worship - - a 4-part harmony arrangement.
My Daddy seems to be settling in at my sister's house. I drove him to pick up a bicycle the other day - - he found a great retro-looking one, meant for touring around the neighborhoods. It has a basket and a cup holder! He's looking for a little exercise and a quick ride to the nearby stores. Maybe a little more independent feeling, since he's not driving any more.
Ebeth just mentioned her father on the prayer thread -- sounds like she may be entering that territory where we start to parent our parents.
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Well, Granddad's with the Lord, Grandma's in the final stages of Alzheimer's, and Mom's trying to executorize whatever executors execute.
And everybody's sleeping for the first time since ... ?
Granddad got very very paranoid and nasty when he was septic--we figured it out after some major antibiotics returned him to his normal level of curmudgeonliness on a couple of occasions. But of course everyone's situation is different.
Hey ho. Now to deal with a boss who either a) thinks that it's abnormal and somehow company-disloyal to have to deal with dying relatives, or b) thinks I am lying my fool head off about having (had) such. Classic line: "Why do you want to go out to see him now--why don't you just wait till he's dead, and then you'll get the cheaper bereavement fare?"
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
Of course you only get the cheaper bereavement fare if you're willing to travel at the absolutely most inconvenient time. As I discovered when I requested it when my mother died.
"That fare is only available for the flight which departs at 5:45am". Yeah, we're bereaved folks, so we really want to get up at 3:00am to catch a plane. And while I don't remember the exact amount, the fare discount definitely wasn't enough to think that it was anything but a way for them to put an extra body on an underpopulated flight.
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I seem to recall a thousand dollar fare dropping to $677 or some such nonsense. And that was twelve years ago when Great Grandma died. For a flight that scheduled normally would cost between 120 and 200 dollars.
Just so compassionate.
[ 13. June 2010, 06:49: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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