homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | Register | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » All Saints   » Whom shall we send? The Vocations Thread (Page 2)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4  5  ...  29  30  31 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Whom shall we send? The Vocations Thread
Jenn.
Shipmate
# 5239

 - Posted      Profile for Jenn.   Email Jenn.   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ceannaideach:

Typically of God the news came while I was in one of my "I don't know what I'm thinking, believing God wants me to do something so big" moods.

So true. I decided to bite the bullet and booked an appointment with the ddo to get back into stuff after maternity leave. Appointment gets made and the next day I go into major glum mood about how rubbish I am at all of "this sort of thing".

Anselmina - thank you for the encouragement that I'm not being presumptuous. It is something I am finding it very difficult to express at the moment, so it means a lot to have someone respond positively to what I wrote.

Posts: 2282 | From: England | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848

 - Posted      Profile for Nunc Dimittis   Email Nunc Dimittis   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jenn.:
quote:
Originally posted by Ceannaideach:

Typically of God the news came while I was in one of my "I don't know what I'm thinking, believing God wants me to do something so big" moods.

So true. I decided to bite the bullet and booked an appointment with the ddo to get back into stuff after maternity leave. Appointment gets made and the next day I go into major glum mood about how rubbish I am at all of "this sort of thing".

I'd love to say that when the bishop puts hands on one's head all those sorts of thoughts and feelings disappear - but they don't.

I reencounter them regularly. Every.Single.Saturday.Night...

[Ultra confused]

So I guess the thing is that those thoughts and feelings are par for the course, and one has got to learn to ignore/work through/realise them for what they are...

Posts: 9513 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
joan knox

Knoxy is my homeboy
# 16100

 - Posted      Profile for joan knox     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
For some reason a line from a Bob Dylan song has wandered into my head - You Gotta Serve Somebody.
This in response to my own inner ponderings everytime I conduct worship - who am I really doing this for? Is it about me, so self-serving... or about God and the people of God? Always a sobering thought. I figure the day I stop asking the question might be the day I should quit this gig.

--------------------
Jesus saves, Allah protects, Buddha enlightens, Cthulhu thinks you'll make a nice sandwich

Posts: 906 | From: edinburgh | Registered: Dec 2010  |  IP: Logged
matthew_dixon
Shipmate
# 12278

 - Posted      Profile for matthew_dixon   Author's homepage   Email matthew_dixon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I swear it would be easier to do a degree in "Defence Against The Dark Arts" at Hogwarts School than to get through selection here in Llandaff. Looks like I'll soon be onto my fourth different DDO! It's not THAT bad a job being DDO is it?
Posts: 321 | From: Cardiff | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged
Laxton's Superba
Shipmate
# 228

 - Posted      Profile for Laxton's Superba   Email Laxton's Superba   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Ha ha Matthew. I am sorry you are having such a long job of it. I am in the middle of writing an essay for my DDO - what kind of priest does God, the church, and the world need in the twenty-first century and could it be me? So of course I am on the Ship procrastinating........
Posts: 187 | From: I wish I knew | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Panda
Shipmate
# 2951

 - Posted      Profile for Panda   Email Panda   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by matthew_dixon:
I swear it would be easier to do a degree in "Defence Against The Dark Arts" at Hogwarts School than to get through selection here in Llandaff. Looks like I'll soon be onto my fourth different DDO! It's not THAT bad a job being DDO is it?

I couldn't say, but Llandaff does seem to go through them. Maybe because the job is often combined with some other, less congenial, post? I'm next door in S&B, though. We have a new one too.
Posts: 1637 | From: North Wales | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
matthew_dixon
Shipmate
# 12278

 - Posted      Profile for matthew_dixon   Author's homepage   Email matthew_dixon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It's not taking too much of a "long time" - it's barely over four years since I saw my first DDO - it's just that we're going through them at a rate of knots!
Posts: 321 | From: Cardiff | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged
Carys

Ship's Celticist
# 78

 - Posted      Profile for Carys   Email Carys   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by matthew_dixon:
It's not taking too much of a "long time" - it's barely over four years since I saw my first DDO - it's just that we're going through them at a rate of knots!

Indeed. To be fair, the first one you saw (whom I never saw as at that point I was still talking to one from my previous diocese) had done the job for a reasonable length of time, it's the two intervening ones who have not lasted long. Has this one even made a year?

I think the job combination is part of the problem. The first one Matthew saw managed the combination with Archbishop's chaplain, I think because he'd spent all his ministry in the diocese and had things very much under control. The next one (my first) was catapulted into that and never really got on top of either role. Current one (who I've never actually seen qua DDO as he sent me back to the vocations advisor) who was appointed after quite a gap and after the job and been advertised with two different parishes from the one that it ended up with, has it combined with a single church. It is not clear why he has gone. I happened to see him at a diocesan event on Thursday and he didn't mention anything DDO related to me but I wasn't feeling like it being brought up anyway. Another friend spoke to him on Sunday and nothing seemed amiss. Matthew phoned me yesterday to say he'd just spoken to him and he wasn't DDO anymore!

I'm not sure where I am vocationally myself. It doesn't feel like the right time to pursue at the moment. It's partly I'm convinced they'll hold the fact I'm currently unemployed against me and partly because I'm not disciplined enough in my prayer life.

The irony of all this is that the Church in Wales is supposedly actively encouraging young vocations!

Carys

--------------------
O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise

Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ship's Stowaway
Shipmate
# 16237

 - Posted      Profile for Ship's Stowaway   Email Ship's Stowaway   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Thanks for the mention of George Herbert's "The Country Parson." I have downloaded a copy and will read it. I gather from some comments that I should be reading "If You Meet George Herbert on the Road, Kill Him!" -- but I'd have to know George Herbert better first. [Smile]

[ 01. April 2011, 09:28: Message edited by: Ship's Stowaway ]

Posts: 119 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged
Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520

 - Posted      Profile for Darllenwr   Email Darllenwr   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Just to add a small (and somewhat wickedly amused) "thank you" to Matthew Dixon and Carys for the news about our DDO. The amusement stems from the confusion I caused in our music group last night when I made some comment about the DDO's departure. Our Vicar's wife (who plays keyboard) said, "Yes, but how did you know? We've only just heard from the Area Dean!" I just replied with something enigmatic like, "I have my sources!", then confessed that the Ship works rather faster than the Diocese.

Just in case you didn't know, I understand that +David is taking on the role pro tem.

--------------------
If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!

Posts: 1096 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009  |  IP: Logged
Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

 - Posted      Profile for Jengie jon   Author's homepage   Email Jengie jon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ship's Stowaway:
Thanks for the mention of George Herbert's "The Country Parson." I have downloaded a copy and will read it. I gather from some comments that I should be reading "If You Meet George Herbert on the Road, Kill Him!" -- but I'd have to know George Herbert better first. [Smile]

You might want to put beside it "The Reformed Pastor" by Richard Baxter.

I have been lent* "The Country Parson" to contextualise Baxter but I suspect that it works the other way too.

Jengie

*By someone firmly in the Baxter camp.

--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Back to my blog

Posts: 20716 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Angel Wrestler
Ship's Hipster
# 13673

 - Posted      Profile for Angel Wrestler     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Don't do it!!! Don't. Please. Get that thought out of your mind right this instant. If you know what's good for you, you'll do anything but that.

You'll be a sitting duck for antagonists and you'll have to return ugliness with grace when the "cheek" you'd like to turn (or tell them to kiss) is not the one on your face. You'll be pressured from the hierarchy to get more professions of faith while being pressured by the people of the church to bring in more members and get them to become just like them (or only select certain ones to become members, meaning that 80% of your neighborhood won't qualify). You'll never be able to express anything that resembles critical thinking and you'll have to tolerate Aunt Josephine butchering the music every week The hierarchy will try to help you lead your church by saying, "get good musicians in!" ... but you can't hurt Aunt Josephine's feelings because her family has been there 150 years and they'd rather get rid of you than to get rid of her, no matter how bad the music is - and she does it for free and they don't want to pay for the music. Complete strangers will call you asking for money - some monthly (or more). And you'll find yourself without a thing to say when some germophobe suggests that you wear those disposable plastic gloves while serving communion. Be ready to feel the angst of God's distance.

(and if you must, you must. But if you do, know this: those annoying people are the dearest, most grace-filled people you'll ever know and God will show himself to be not only big enough to include you with your high falootin' education, but will be big enough to include Aunt Josephine, the old woman with some vulgar language, and the guy who unquestioningly puts Vicks on his feet because one of those advice e-mails told him to. You'll be shown generosity beyond what you can imagine and you'll have the sacred moments of praying with someone as they slip off into the arms of Jesus. You'll get to cry with people and laugh with them and eat some wonderful food! And you'll get a catch in your throat when you say, "remember that you're dust..." and "the body of Christ, broken for you." And when you baptize someone, you'll have a natural high for the rest of the day. Be prepared to cry at at least a couple funerals and be prepared to experience God at God's closest.)

Posts: 2767 | From: half-way up the ladder | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696

 - Posted      Profile for Evensong   Author's homepage   Email Evensong   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Angel Wrestler:
Don't do it!!! Don't. Please. Get that thought out of your mind right this instant. If you know what's good for you, you'll do anything but that.

Read Baxter? Or Herbert? [Biased]

Thanks for the personal testimony. I'd "like" it if the damn ship got with the times and provided one.*

(* I am not worthy to receive it but only say the word and we could have one)

--------------------
a theological scrapbook

Posts: 9473 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
Ship's Stowaway
Shipmate
# 16237

 - Posted      Profile for Ship's Stowaway   Email Ship's Stowaway   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
quote:
Originally posted by Ship's Stowaway:
Thanks for the mention of George Herbert's "The Country Parson." I have downloaded a copy and will read it. I gather from some comments that I should be reading "If You Meet George Herbert on the Road, Kill Him!" -- but I'd have to know George Herbert better first. [Smile]

You might want to put beside it "The Reformed Pastor" by Richard Baxter.

I have been lent* "The Country Parson" to contextualise Baxter but I suspect that it works the other way too.

Jengie

*By someone firmly in the Baxter camp.

Dear Jengie: Thank you for the suggestion. I have downloaded the "Reformed Pastor" by Richard Baxter and will take a look. I had only read about Baxter in history books on the 17th century and did not know about this book.
Posts: 119 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged
Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444

 - Posted      Profile for Latchkey Kid   Author's homepage   Email Latchkey Kid   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Thanks for that, Angel Wrestler.

May I quote you in the next Chaplaincy Students' service I prepare?

--------------------
'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner

Posts: 2581 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
Angel Wrestler
Ship's Hipster
# 13673

 - Posted      Profile for Angel Wrestler     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
... uh.. well, if you're serious - sure! [Biased]
Posts: 2767 | From: half-way up the ladder | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged
Ship's Stowaway
Shipmate
# 16237

 - Posted      Profile for Ship's Stowaway   Email Ship's Stowaway   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
You might want to put beside it "The Reformed Pastor" by Richard Baxter.

I have been lent* "The Country Parson" to contextualise Baxter but I suspect that it works the other way too.

Jengie

------------------------------------

Dear Jengie Jon:

I appreciated the suggestion. It is an eye-opening treatise.

I have read about 10 pages of Richard Baxter's "The Reformed Pastor" and have to give up.

While he occupied a middle ground politically between the Dissenters (Presbyterians) and the Anglicans theologically during the English Civil War, this book (circa 1656) is very Calvinist -- he mentions the Presbyterian Westminister Confession of Faith --

Baxter thinks inadequate, lazy and wicked ministers are going to Hell. Ooops! [Eek!]

I'm continuing to read George Herbert's "The Country Parson" and Thomas Traherne's "Centuries of Meditation" -- same era, but Anglican priests and much gentler -- at least so far -- Herbert says that he is setting his standards for himself and other ministers very high just to encourage himself to aim high, but that any minister not reaching his standards shouldn't consider themselves a sinner. [Smile]

Traherne's book is not a book on clergy conduct, but a series of very rich meditations on Christian mysticism that I had never seen before. They're beautiful. But he and Herbert seem to be working from similar assumptions.

I should mention that while I was raised as an Episcopalian, I spent a year in an Orthodox Presbyterian church as a teen, read the Westminister Confession of Faith, and admired the steely backbone of Calvinism. It is a powerful theology. But I never quite clicked with it.


[code corrected]

[ 05. April 2011, 09:10: Message edited by: Welease Woderwick ]

Posts: 119 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged
Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

 - Posted      Profile for Jengie jon   Author's homepage   Email Jengie jon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
You do realise that the time Baxter was writing the Westminster Confession was the statement of faith of the Church of England. In fact it is technically a CofE document, hence the Westminster. You also realise what he wrote was initially for preaching at a clergy retreat, and one specifically set up to repent of the sins they perceive.

Have you also considered that in coming a pastor you do take on pastoral responsibility for a part of the church. Go and look at what the Bible says about prophets who don't warn, or what Paul says about leaders in the church and how their sins are under a microscope on judgement day. Baxter when talking of the need for catechism of the parish and it is in that perspective that you have to take his sayings on lazy ministers.

If Callum Brown is to be believed the pattern he laid down for clerical behaviour lasted up until 1950s. The pastoral visit that was intend to strengthen a households faith. Yes definitely amongst Anglicans and even Roman Catholics. In the CofE this included visits to households that weren't church attending. Just the other week I was interviewing a woman who started going to church because her mother sent her to Sunday School after just such a visit from the Parish Priest. The mother did not go herself.

Are we really better off today when the practice has fallen into disregard?

Jengie

[ 05. April 2011, 08:21: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]

--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Back to my blog

Posts: 20716 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ship's Stowaway
Shipmate
# 16237

 - Posted      Profile for Ship's Stowaway   Email Ship's Stowaway   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Dear Jengie:

OK, I'll give Baxter another ten pages and see if I like him better.

Posts: 119 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged
Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

 - Posted      Profile for Anselmina     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ship's Stowaway:
[Baxter thinks inadequate, lazy and wicked ministers are going to Hell. Ooops! [Eek!]

Well, at least he has that in common with most of our congregations!

Has somebody recommended 'Being a Priest Today' the authors being Christopher Cocksworth and Rosalind Brown?

I found/find this book quite useful.

Posts: 9960 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

 - Posted      Profile for Jengie jon   Author's homepage   Email Jengie jon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ship's Stowaway:
Dear Jengie:

OK, I'll give Baxter another ten pages and see if I like him better.

Actually skip to the last chapter.

Jengie

--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Back to my blog

Posts: 20716 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848

 - Posted      Profile for Nunc Dimittis   Email Nunc Dimittis   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
Originally posted by Ship's Stowaway:
[Baxter thinks inadequate, lazy and wicked ministers are going to Hell. Ooops! [Eek!]

Well, at least he has that in common with most of our congregations!

Has somebody recommended 'Being a Priest Today' the authors being Christopher Cocksworth and Rosalind Brown?

I found/find this book quite useful.

"Being a Priest Today" is excellent.

Scoop: we've managed to engage Rosalind Brown to be the keynote speaker at next year's Clergy Summer School here in sunny old Brisbane!

Posts: 9513 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349

 - Posted      Profile for Anglican_Brat   Email Anglican_Brat   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Found this thread, yay!

Anyway, I'm heading off to the Advisory Committee on Postulancy to Ordination (ACPO) at the end of this month. If ACPO recommends me, then I will officially become a postulant to ordained ministry.

As well, I applied to Trinity College in Toronto for my seminary studies, Trinity being a liberal Anglo-catholic school where one of our fellow high-church ship mates is currently attending. If all goes well, I will be saying good bye to the Pacific Northwest coast and heading to three years of living in Toronto.

I'm a bit nervous about the prospect. I have never lived in another province before, all my life I have lived in Lotus land. I also know a few people in TO, but it will take time for me to adjust to the big city.

--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.

Posts: 4293 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696

 - Posted      Profile for Evensong   Author's homepage   Email Evensong   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Sounds like an exciting new adventure Anglican_Brat. [Yipee]

Best wishes to you. [Votive]

--------------------
a theological scrapbook

Posts: 9473 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
Ship's Stowaway
Shipmate
# 16237

 - Posted      Profile for Ship's Stowaway   Email Ship's Stowaway   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
quote:
Originally posted by Ship's Stowaway:
Dear Jengie:

OK, I'll give Baxter another ten pages and see if I like him better.



Actually skip to the last chapter.

Jengie

Dear Jengie:

I will try again. Baxter's "Reformed Pastor" had put me off again by stating that the Cromwellian appointees to the ministry (year 1656) were vastly superior to the ministers he dealt with in CofE prior to the Civil War.

That considerably annoyed me, as the pre-Civil War CofE ministers were not perfect, but hundreds of them had been dispossessed by Cromwell for being -- well -- the major sins of being Royalists and Anglicans.

So I questioned whether their replacements -- Presbyterians -- were morally superior to their predecessors -- or merely more in agreement with Baxter's theology.

So I had put his book away again. But I will give him a third try and read the last chapter of the book.

Posts: 119 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged
Ship's Stowaway
Shipmate
# 16237

 - Posted      Profile for Ship's Stowaway   Email Ship's Stowaway   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Found this thread, yay!

Anyway, I'm heading off to the Advisory Committee on Postulancy to Ordination (ACPO) at the end of this month. If ACPO recommends me, then I will officially become a postulant to ordained ministry.

As well, I applied to Trinity College in Toronto for my seminary studies, Trinity being a liberal Anglo-catholic school where one of our fellow high-church ship mates is currently attending. If all goes well, I will be saying good bye to the Pacific Northwest coast and heading to three years of living in Toronto.

I'm a bit nervous about the prospect. I have never lived in another province before, all my life I have lived in Lotus land. I also know a few people in TO, but it will take time for me to adjust to the big city.

Dear Anglican Brat:

Good luck! [Axe murder]

Posts: 119 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

 - Posted      Profile for ken     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Richard Baxter is probably the least sectarian and most tolerant of the well-known 17th century writers. Which is why he still gets claimed by Presbyterians and Independents and Anglicans He was again a minister in the established church after 1688 - he had been one of the thousands ejected from their livings under Charles II - even though Charles had previously offered him a bishopric!

Baxter was happy to acknowledge both independent and episcopal churches as churches, and their pastors as fellow ministers. And perhaps more significantly, the Roman Catholics as well. He quotes contemporary RC writers with approval

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

 - Posted      Profile for Jengie jon   Author's homepage   Email Jengie jon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I seem to have lost a post

Try the final chapter of Baxter, it is where he gets to the heart of the issue.

Jengie

--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Back to my blog

Posts: 20716 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ship's Stowaway
Shipmate
# 16237

 - Posted      Profile for Ship's Stowaway   Email Ship's Stowaway   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Dear Jengie:

I have read the last chapter of Baxter. Not sure what my takeaway is.

1. He keeps harping on how the Presbyterian ministers serving with him were so much better than the Anglican ministers whose parishes they took away during the Civil War.

I now know why the Anglicans singled him out for special persecution -- more than other Dissenting ministers -- after he refused a bishopric from King Charles II. Baxter had trashed them in a best-selling book! No power structure will forgive that. [Devil]

2. He wants every minister to meet every family in his parish. Fine. Excellent idea!

But he wants to teach them the Cathechism during these meetings. Can't tell if it is the CofE catechism of that era or the Westminister Confession of Faith.

My thought -- he seems to have largely illiterate rural parishoners in 1656 -- if he was trying to teach largely illiterate rural parishoners the Westminister Confession of Faith -- wildly unrealistic. WC of F -- too complex for that audience. CofE catechism shorter, but would parishioners even understand it?

Not only that, but if they were rural, many were likely secret Anglicans of a sort. The working classes were extremely embittered against the Cromwellian ban on Christmas celebrations, etc. Some of them had a folk Anglicanism and were weary of Baxter and the other Puritan ministers.

Again, Baxter seems very politically naive.

In his place I would devoted my efforts to literacy classes and free Bibles, one per family. Hard to catechize if no one can read or knows any Bible.

2. He has some good things -- warnings to ministers against pride -- very important. Also good stuff on the necessity of ministers to keep up on book learning and better-written and delivered sermons. Good stuff!

3. He berates the clergy for conforming to government decrees on religion and urges more diversity of views in every Christian country --

but the clergy who hung onto their parishes probably felt that they had to conform to the Puritans -- they had to eat and had families to feed and probably viewed not wearing surplices, serving Holy Eucharist/Communion at tables instead of altars, etc. as negotiable as long as they were in a Protestant context.

Again, Baxter seems very naive.

4. He berates ministers for having worldly businesses and not giving enough to charity -- well, CofE parish ministers in the 17th century were notoriously underpaid, and Baxter's Puritan colleagues had taken over those parishes and their mostly low salaries.

Ironically, the Dissenting or Puritan ministers, despite persecution, became better salaried than their Anglican brethren by 1688 after the Anglicans took back those parishes.

The persecuted Dissenting congregations took better care of their ministers because there was no government parish salary to fall back on. So persecution does have some benefits. [Killing me]

5. Baxter talks about a reconciliation between all of the Protestant factions -- there should be a unified church. But how could this be after a decade of violent civil war partly over religious issues?

And when the 1688 revolution came, neither the CofE nor the Dissenters wanted to form a united church when offered the chance.

Again, he seems very politically naive.

Baxter would have done better nowadays with all of the ecumenical work between various denominations. He was about 300 years ahead of his time. [Angel]

6. Baxter's ideas on church discipline -- if I understand him correctly, he thinks ministers should be publicly rebuking and kicking out church members who are notorious sinners and denouncing them to the civil authorities if they don't mend their ways.

Baxter exists in a different historical context from us. As an official employee of Cromwell's government in some sense? Sort of a semi-sheriff?

I understand that some Dissenting congregations and even later Anglican congregations did deny people communion and kick them out for misconduct.

How this translates to a modern context is, I think, difficult. There are people who have to be told to leave congregations because their behavior is way, way, way beyond inappropriate.

But I am still in a learning curve on that subject, so cannot yet comment on it.

7. I may be having stylistic as well as theological problems with Baxter.

Herbert's "Country Parson" -- I'm only 20 pages in -- advocates for teaching the Catechism, etc. -- and also reflects its more peaceful era -- the pre-Civil War 1630s -- but it is just written in a more cheerful and upbeat tone.

So far, only one sentence in Herbert about the need to debate "Papists and schismatics" and some gentle rebukes to his colleagues who are too subservient to the nobility. But I am only 20 pages into the book.

Whereas, Baxter keeps talking about "sin" and "hell" awaiting his colleagues who in his view are not doing their jobs. It's hard for me to 'hear' him. [Eek!]

Posts: 119 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged
Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

 - Posted      Profile for Jengie jon   Author's homepage   Email Jengie jon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Its nice to believe that people were secretly Anglican.

You maybe interested that under the Congregational Ascendancy (followed the Presbyterian) parishes were assigned to factions according to the proportion of the people supporting that faction.

Yes that means Episcopalians appointed to Parishes.

Major problem was recruiting Congregationalists to parishes. They has quite strong leanings towards Anabaptist Ecclesiology and they simply did not feel the parish system matched their understanding of church. So during the Congregational Ascendancy parishes were often staffed by Episcopalians and Presbyterians despite Congregational dominance. How is that for tolerance!

Jengie

--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Back to my blog

Posts: 20716 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ship's Stowaway
Shipmate
# 16237

 - Posted      Profile for Ship's Stowaway   Email Ship's Stowaway   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Jengie -- thank you for that historical information about the Congregationalist Ascendancy! I did not know that. [Smile]

I always learn something new when you post. [Overused]

I'm also appreciative that you had me slog through much of Baxter, because I did learn a lot and am a history buff of the English Civil War -- but living in America there is much that I miss. [Hot and Hormonal]

Posts: 119 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged
Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208

 - Posted      Profile for Twangist   Author's homepage   Email Twangist   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
J I Packer's introduction to the Reformed Pastor (it's in the Banner of Truth version and reprinted in Amongst God's Giants) is very helpful in addressing a lot of the points you raise (and downright inspiring).

--------------------
JJ
SDG
blog

Posts: 603 | From: Devon | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged
Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208

 - Posted      Profile for Twangist   Author's homepage   Email Twangist   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Is there an echo?
Sorry - wierd computer

--------------------
JJ
SDG
blog

Posts: 603 | From: Devon | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged
Welease Woderwick

Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424

 - Posted      Profile for Welease Woderwick   Email Welease Woderwick   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:
Is there an echo?
Sorry - wierd computer

Being kind, sweet and lovable I have deleted the duplicate post.

Ain't I a darling?

Twangist, my connection does that sometimes as well but at least in AS I can correct it!

--------------------
I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details

What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?

Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208

 - Posted      Profile for Twangist   Author's homepage   Email Twangist   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
thanks WW

--------------------
JJ
SDG
blog

Posts: 603 | From: Devon | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged
Ship's Stowaway
Shipmate
# 16237

 - Posted      Profile for Ship's Stowaway   Email Ship's Stowaway   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Dear Twangist:

I wasn't able to obtain a complete copy of J.I. Packer's introduction to the Reformed Pastor, but did get hold of some lengthy extracts. Thank you for suggesting that.

Posts: 119 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged
moonfruit
Shipmate
# 15818

 - Posted      Profile for moonfruit   Email moonfruit   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Hoping someone here might have some wisdom...I'm just starting to think that possibly God's calling me to ordination, which is cool and scary and all kinds of things all at once.

However I was praying this evening, and it occurred to me, in one of those 'well, yes, duh' moments that this would mean having to give up teaching, my current job, which I love so so much...and I just cried.

How have others dealt with that part of being called to ordination - or indeed anything - when it means leaving something else behind?

--------------------
All I know is that you came and made beauty from my mess.

Posts: 180 | From: Just outside the M25 | Registered: Aug 2010  |  IP: Logged
3rdFooter
Shipmate
# 9751

 - Posted      Profile for 3rdFooter   Email 3rdFooter   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Moonfruit
It doesn't have to be as rigid as that. There are many ordained ministers who remain in secular employment. Its not just an economic thing, it is a method by which the Church can be present in peoples working week (including school students). Teaching has a ministerial aspect anyway. A Self Supporting Minister (SSM) with predictable availability in the school vacations would be a blessing to many parishes.

Or looking the other way, don't lose sight of the teaching perspective of ordained ministry. You might lose the formal structure of the school setting but the teaching gifts you have been given weren't given to be wasted.

It is not an easy thing to work through. Ministry is a 'whole life' thing regardless of how bread gets on the table.

[Votive] for discernment

3F

--------------------
3F - Shunter in the sidings of God's Kingdom

Posts: 600 | From: outskirts of Babylon | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
aig
Shipmate
# 429

 - Posted      Profile for aig     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Moonfruit wrote;
However I was praying this evening, and it occurred to me, in one of those 'well, yes, duh' moments that this would mean having to give up teaching, my current job, which I love so so much...and I just cried.

I went through this experience too and I think it is something that you have to let develop. I was certain I would train part time and carry on working in my day job (I am a paediatrician) until 3 months after my BAP, when it seemed right to train residentially (and therefore, the day job had to go....)
This was such a difficult decision for me that I deferred entry to college for a year (I start this September), really to let me get my head round a decision which I know was God-given.

--------------------
That's not how we do it here.......

Posts: 464 | From: the middle bit at the bottom slightly to the right | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jel
Apprentice
# 9755

 - Posted      Profile for Jel   Email Jel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Can I suggest something less organisational - the Spirit does not necessarily call you to a place in a heirarchy, although He can. After being Jonahed into a position (two levels below Javier Solana) where He wrote chunks of future human history, and then led me onto salvaging the Roman Eucharistic vocation, I'm now easing off to document.
Those of you in the mid-west will recognise there's a school of numerologists whose trust in the Lord is being tested by the considerable number of web pages which detected in that structure an apocalyptic intent. They've got it wrong because mankind does not set that agenda, God does.
The reason I raise this here, though, is that my vocation was outside the Organisational: I was used as a Prot to sort out Catholics who were not listening. Now they are, and my work in that respect is done: the background has led me onto a next step. It was certainly tested by the Church Army seminary, indeed under the toughest test possible, entirely justified by the quite extraordinary circumstance presented through me. The core theology is that of the young Samuel, listening seriously with the Lord's Prayer and nothing else as soul food. If we have something in our hearts at the same time, the Lord knows, so trust Him. The miraculous can and does still happen. That's what you're on about here, so go with it, happy that even if you don't know where that blind step of faith is taking you, His faithfulness will test you, stretch you, sometimes all the way, and you'll be doing what you were made to be.

And finally, to leaven the mix, don't forget:
Descartes: To do is to be
Sartre: To be is to do
Sinatra: Doo-bee-doo-bee-doo.

Posts: 40 | From: Brussels | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm not entirely sure this belongs here but a young friend of ours has been badgering God for a clear call for months. She received a pretty random email about Christian voluntary work helping with the never ending relief work in Haiti and, as she's a pharmacist, felt this was it. She prayed, received another email from another source for much the same thing so, not wanting to test God any more, she has applied and now has a stash of forms to complete, including a rather intimidating Statement of Faith.

Can you please pray for C, for the process to go smoothly and for her to be fulfilled in whatever happens now. [Votive]

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24053 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696

 - Posted      Profile for Evensong   Author's homepage   Email Evensong   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jel:

And finally, to leaven the mix, don't forget:
Descartes: To do is to be
Sartre: To be is to do
Sinatra: Doo-bee-doo-bee-doo.

[Big Grin]

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

Can you please pray for C, for the process to go smoothly and for her to be fulfilled in whatever happens now. [Votive]

[Votive] For C.

Can't hurt to volunteer in Haiti. Certainly God's work if she can do it.

--------------------
a theological scrapbook

Posts: 9473 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
moonfruit
Shipmate
# 15818

 - Posted      Profile for moonfruit   Email moonfruit   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Thanks for your thoughts - I think it's mostly a case of trusting God and letting things develop. Part of what freaked me out was that this would really be the first time that following God will have genuinely cost me something. That'll take a bit of getting used to, especially when I'm just starting to feel properly settled, actually living and working somewhere for more than a year at a time.

Still. Let go, and let God. He knows what he's doing. The more immediate task is, I guess, to do some reading then have a chat with my vicar. Who I suspect might not be entirely surprised. Ho-hum.

--------------------
All I know is that you came and made beauty from my mess.

Posts: 180 | From: Just outside the M25 | Registered: Aug 2010  |  IP: Logged
Adam.

Like as the
# 4991

 - Posted      Profile for Adam.   Author's homepage   Email Adam.   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I don't know how this pans out in the CofE, but out of Catholic priests ordained last year in the US, the largest single previous profession (including "none") was teacher. It was my background too.

The way I see it, I'm not leaving teaching to enter the priesthood. The priesthood is a threefold ministry of word, worship and shepherding. A priest is a teacher, a public pray-er and a servant-leader. I just got started on the teaching part before the other two.

Now, I have joined a teaching order, so there is a decent chance I might go back to classroom teaching at some point (I taught a 1 credit seminar as part of a service learning trip this semester, actually). But, as part of my vow of obedience, I have to be open to never stepping foot in a classroom as teacher again. I can profess that because I know that I can be a teacher in other roles as well.

I know some parish priests who live out very fully the vocation of teacher. I know some for whom that's not as central and whose gifts are more in other areas. I would endeavor to be part of that former group.

--------------------
Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog

Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
matthew_dixon
Shipmate
# 12278

 - Posted      Profile for matthew_dixon   Author's homepage   Email matthew_dixon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Darllenwr:
Just in case you didn't know, I understand that +David is taking on the role pro tem.

I had heard rumours of that. I might contact the bishop's office and arrange a meeting. The simple fact I got told by the DDO who gave me feedback from my last board was that "when we send you back to the board, the entire board will be different... aside from the bishop". Therefore, at some point I need to get across to a bishop that always wanted to do a Maths PhD that it's something I personally am glad I never ended up doing!

In all honesty at the moment, whilst maybe I'm slightly off on my prayer life from where I was at my "best", the things I'm thinking I need to work on are learning to drive (which will hopefully be following an eye operation to improve my sight), working out how I feel I am likely to cope with a home-based job as a single person (or rectifying that issue of course...!) and convincing the DDO that I'm not desperate to do that maths PhD. Potentially meeting with the Bishop in a DDO capacity might be beneficial.

Posts: 321 | From: Cardiff | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged
Bagpuss

Magical saggy cloth cat
# 2925

 - Posted      Profile for Bagpuss     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
RE Anglican teachers - there are at least 8 on my training course!

Moonfruit - I teach too (am currently halfway through my ordination training)and feel my teaching is much a vocation as the priesthood. I am going SSM but as my training progresses I can feel the pull for the future potentially leading me to part time parish post, part time chaplaincy/teaching post. I am lucky that my head has a similar vision and will bend over backwards to make it happen if that is where God leads me eventually.

Ithink there is definitely potential for both - either in school/parish/combination.

Posts: 473 | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Carys

Ship's Celticist
# 78

 - Posted      Profile for Carys   Email Carys   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by matthew_dixon:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Darllenwr:
[qb] Therefore, at some point I need to get across to a bishop that always wanted to do a Maths PhD that it's something I personally am glad I never ended up doing!

Whereas I got* 'how can someone with a Cambridge PhD minister in the Valleys?' So your lack of PhD was held against you, whereas my PhD has been held against me!

I possibly need to think about seeing the Vocations Advisor again, but being unemployed and being knocked back for jobs hasn't done my self-confidence much good and that's my biggest problem!

Carys

*From the Vocations Advisor, whom the last DDO sent me to see, because I hadn't, even though I'd seen the previous DDO and a DDO in a previous diocese.

--------------------
O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise

Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349

 - Posted      Profile for Anglican_Brat   Email Anglican_Brat   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Just an update:

I have been accepted into Trinity College in Toronto and will attend in the fall. As well, this weekend, I will attend the ACPO conference for my diocese. If recommended, I will officially become a postulant of the Church.

Pray for me [Votive]

Posts: 4293 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Poppy

Ship's dancing cat
# 2000

 - Posted      Profile for Poppy   Email Poppy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Just an update:

I have been accepted into Trinity College in Toronto and will attend in the fall. As well, this weekend, I will attend the ACPO conference for my diocese. If recommended, I will officially become a postulant of the Church.

Pray for me [Votive]

Many, many prayers Anglican_Brat. Hope all goes well.

--------------------
At the still point of the turning world - there the dance is...

Posts: 1403 | From: The green heart of many roundabouts | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349

 - Posted      Profile for Anglican_Brat   Email Anglican_Brat   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Poppy:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Just an update:

I have been accepted into Trinity College in Toronto and will attend in the fall. As well, this weekend, I will attend the ACPO conference for my diocese. If recommended, I will officially become a postulant of the Church.

Pray for me [Votive]

Many, many prayers Anglican_Brat. Hope all goes well.
Thank you, Poppy. I had an amazing weekend at ACPO and have been recommended to postulancy.

I'm following my dream and vocation! [Yipee]

--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.

Posts: 4293 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4  5  ...  29  30  31 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
Check out Reform magazine
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
  ship of fools