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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Whom shall we send? The Vocations Thread
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
Good luck, JC and IamChristian. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
Prayers for Laxton's Superba and Thurible. A no is hard to deal with. Does the church need to be better at supporting people in asking 'if not this then what?'
Prayers to for Jade in her explorations. Not a community I know much of. Active or contemplative?
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
Prayers for Laxton's Superba and Thurible. A no is hard to deal with. Does the church need to be better at supporting people in asking 'if not this then what?'
Prayers to for Jade in her explorations. Not a community I know much of. Active or contemplative?
Carys
Active - they are actually the order the nuns in Call The Midwife are based on, although they are no longer midwives and no longer wear the habit. They are based in Birmingham now.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Hezekiah
Apprentice
# 17157
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Posted
I will be joining the novitiate of a Benedictine house at the end of the summer.
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2 Kings 3:27
Posts: 36 | Registered: Jun 2012
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
Congratulations Hezekiah, my prayers are with you.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Hezekiah
Apprentice
# 17157
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Posted
Thank you. I'm sorry for not giving any details - I'm not sure that that would be quite right for the religious life (hardly humble and enclosed, publishing it in the internet!) - but I'm very grateful fir your prayers.
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2 Kings 3:27
Posts: 36 | Registered: Jun 2012
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
All the best, Hezekiah.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
Can anyone speak about the kind of training that (non-ordained) chaplains receive?
This question comes out of some ideas I'm starting to have stemming from an experience I've been having. At this point it's not about an inkling to any kind of ordained ministry, but a realization that to fulfill well the leadership role that I'm in, discernment and training similar to some aspects of what priests and chaplains learn about, might be in order.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
Is there a theological college anywhere near you, Autenrieth Road? The local one here offers part-time and occasional training courses for lay ministers and other non-ordained church leaders (youth leaders, bereavement counselling and so forth) - that route might be worth investigating.
All the best for your searches.
[ 04. April 2014, 02:48: Message edited by: piglet ]
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
AR, you'll probably need a masters degree, either an MDiv or an MA in spiritual direction or some such.
Then, you'll almost certainly have take several deep draughts of the CPE Kool-Aid. Then again I have only an MDiv an a mere sip of a single unit of CPE and I stumbled on a paying gig.
I've met a chaplain who deserted her family once a week to drive from the wilds of Connecticut to get her degree from Boston College School of Theology and Ministry. You could do worse.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
Thank you, piglet and TSA. That is very helpful. I'm reflecting on these things and hope to be able to say something coherent once I start to make any sense out of the surprising things people tell me in connection with this. (Pleasantly surprising, yet surprising all the same.)
[ 04. April 2014, 15:45: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
Well, I thought there was a seminary near me, but apparently not really, not any more. I'll contact them nevertheless. Also other institutions farther afield. Right now I'm casting my net broadly, finding out the kind of coursework or formation work people take who are heading into pastoral occupations in one way or another. My first step is just finding out what the landscape might include. Later will be figuring exactly where I fit into it.
[Well, I thought I could spell, but apparently not really ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ]
[ 04. April 2014, 16:12: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Laxton's Superba
Shipmate
# 228
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Posted
I am seeing my sponsoring bishop on Tuesday for a debrief about the BAP "no". It's still most painful to talk about, here's hoping I don't blub.
Posts: 187 | From: I wish I knew | Registered: May 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
Tears are allowed, surely, LS. What's spiritual is very close to the emotions, and this has been a hairy ride, as calling always is: one which makes the heart leap with excitement and fear, and one which crashes into disappointment and heart-searching too. The discernment process puts people through all of this, but it is necessary. Continue to trust in God, let his will be done.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
for you Laxton Superba. I'm glad there even is a debrief session. I hope the Bishop is graceful with you and honest with you.
I hope and pray that if this door closes for you others will open and you will continue to seek your God given vocation - wherever that may be.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Rev per Minute
Shipmate
# 69
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Can anyone speak about the kind of training that (non-ordained) chaplains receive?
This question comes out of some ideas I'm starting to have stemming from an experience I've been having. At this point it's not about an inkling to any kind of ordained ministry, but a realization that to fulfill well the leadership role that I'm in, discernment and training similar to some aspects of what priests and chaplains learn about, might be in order.
St Michael's College, Llandaff has a Centre for Chaplaincy Studies, though AFAICS they are at post-graduate level. I thought that chaplains were generally ordained, at least the limited number that I have met in different areas - what sort of chaplaincy do you feel you are being called to, if that's not too intrusive?
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"Allons-y!" "Geronimo!" "Oh, for God's sake!" The Day of the Doctor
At the end of the day, we face our Maker alongside Jesus. RIP ken
Posts: 2696 | From: my desk (if I can find the keyboard under this mess) | Registered: May 2001
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
Hi Rev per Minute, thanks for the pointer to St. Michael's. I shall read their requirements with interest.
I don't feel called to chaplaincy explicitly. (Oh wouldn't that be funny if this was indeed the start of a call to chaplaincy... if so, y'all can say "we told you so!")
What I feel is that as a co-leader of a group where it turns out that there have been some problems going back years, that I did not fully understand were problems until very recently, I have come to feel like there are whole areas of knowledge and training that would help me lead in the future. I will be the sole leader -- we're allowing the co-leader to choose to retire at the end of this program year.
As part of my working through this situation, I have been talking to a priest about it. He seems to have so much more wisdom and knowledge about these kinds of issues than I have had, that if that comes in anyway from training, it seems that it would be training that it would help for me to have something like that.
Some of the areas are around boundaries; sharing things as appropriate confidences vs. telling people things that you then force them to keep as bad secrets; and group and individual dynamics. Some of the areas are around how to listen to and respect a wide spectrum of theological views, without feeling threatened. Some of the areas are around some kind of deeper understanding of my own unconventional spirituality (that's too simple a word for what's involved in this, but it will have to do for now). Some of the areas I might not even know about -- I didn't realize that the aforementioned were areas where I need more information and understanding until this all blew up -- so being able to look at the whole spectrum of requirements for priests/chaplains I think would help me think through some things.
I suppose the general thinking about chaplains is that they are ordained. But there exist lay people who serve as chaplains, and training for them -- I know a lay person who is an excellent chaplain, and went through a seminary program for it at our local seminary (which is now, sadly, defunct).
So to ask the question here, the easiest way to ask it seemed to be to ask about the kind of training chaplains -- or priests -- get. However that's because I'm interested in that kind of training because of my role as a leader of this group, not because I'm interested in being a chaplain or priest.
I can see this is an explanation I'm going to have to give a lot, because one of the things I know is that church people in official positions get very very VERY twitchy if people start angling that they want to be ordained without going through the proper channels (which means starting by getting called at the local congregation level) -- and very rightly so in my opinion. So I need to find a way to get them to understand what it is I'm really asking about, and then if there are proper channels for that then I'll try to comply. But I don't want to get fobbed off just because they haven't understood what I am asking for.
[ 21. April 2014, 17:59: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
I should add, the organization that organizes these groups does offer very good and ongoing training for the leaders. I think in normal circumstances that's enough. However, I've just come through a very abnormal circumstance, and discovered that there are a lot of things I didn't know about that turned out to make me a perfect victim for the kind of manipulation I've been facing. So I want more knowledge and understanding.
I'm also entering into on-going counseling and lots of pastoral care, and a renewed role of someone in a consultative position for me as the leader. It's not that I think chaplain course-work is the only answer for this, or the whole answer. It is an area, however, that I think could add a lot to what I can draw on as a leader.
A possibly related anecdote: years ago in my church a workshop was offered for small group leaders. This was before I got involved with this particular group, but after I'd tried lots of small groups at my church and felt that I never quite fit. So I desperately wanted to take this workshop, because I thought it would help me understand how the small groups worked and I'd be able to fit in better as a participant. I was not permitted to join the workshop. Our Adult Ed chair was adamant that she didn't want anybody thinking that they could just weasel their way into leadership without a lot of proving themselves within small groups already, and without her and the Adult Ed committee's approval. I could not convince her that I was by no means trying to weasel my way into anything, and fully agreed with her about the way for leaders to be raised up, and I wanted this leadership training solely for the purpose of making me a better participant.
Sudden thought: perhaps the chaplains I know really learn their stuff in CPE. Now that gives me pause for thought, because whenever I've thought about CPE, from what I know about it, it's something that is all consuming, and I can't see how I could possibly do it. (OK, don't all snicker as you point out "has often thought about CPE" next to "I'm not feeling called to be a chaplain." ![[Smile]](smile.gif) )
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Niminypiminy
Shipmate
# 15489
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Posted
LS, you've been in my prayers today.
I hope the meeting was as constructive as it could be under the circumstances.
for you as you walk this hard bit of your road, and that around the next bend you may see the place God is calling you to.
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Lives of the Saints: songs by The Unequal Struggle
http://www.theunequalstruggle.com/
Posts: 776 | From: Edge of the Fens | Registered: Feb 2010
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
**bump**
I'm giving this thread a nudge out of the way of the Hostly Spring-cleaning Broom.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hezekiah:
Thank you. I'm sorry for not giving any details - I'm not sure that that would be quite right for the religious life (hardly humble and enclosed, publishing it in the internet!) - but I'm very grateful fir your prayers.
I am not so sure - after all, there's this (very Benedictine indeed) site .
But you'd have to check with your superior.
In any case, this is good News indeed, and I shall pray for what I hope will be a good start into a life that **really** makes sense.
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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Laxton's Superba
Shipmate
# 228
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Posted
Bishop was very affirming and encouraged me to go back to BAP soon. Critical of the report and how it was written and will let the powers that be know this in no uncertain terms.
Not sure what to do next. Vicar has some ideas, possibility of doing some theological college courses as associate student, but I don't know.
Thanks for your prayers and thoughts. I can't let this go.
Posts: 187 | From: I wish I knew | Registered: May 2001
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Niminypiminy
Shipmate
# 15489
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Posted
Good to hear the Bishop was so positive and supportive.
Continuing for you.
Posts: 776 | From: Edge of the Fens | Registered: Feb 2010
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
Pleased to hear that the meeting was so positive, LS.
Prayers with you that the door will open soon.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
Sounds like an interesting meeting LS!
I'd go for some theological studies. Can't hurt; whether you're eventually accepted for ordained ministry or not.
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Panda
Shipmate
# 2951
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Posted
Without wishing to rose-tint things too much, the priests I know who had to go to BAP more than once were glad of it, in the end. They felt it gave them far more empathy with those were examining their vocation, as well as a stronger sense of learning to trust in God, which perhaps those who got through on the first go didn't experience in the same way.
Posts: 1637 | From: North Wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laxton's Superba:
Bishop was very affirming and encouraged me to go back to BAP soon. Critical of the report and how it was written and will let the powers that be know this in no uncertain terms.
Not sure what to do next. Vicar has some ideas, possibility of doing some theological college courses as associate student, but I don't know.
Thanks for your prayers and thoughts. I can't let this go.
Can Bishops overturn the decisions of BAP's? They certainly could a few years ago but it may have changed.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
They can, but they generally won't.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Laxton's Superba
Shipmate
# 228
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Posted
They can. It's a Bishop's advisory panel, after all. But according to my DDO, if they overturn a decision, the diocese is then financially responsible for a candidate at the end of training and must "reserve" a curacy which could have gone to a properly approved candidate. Seems petty to me.
Posts: 187 | From: I wish I knew | Registered: May 2001
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
/tangent/
LS - I guess this won't cheer you up, but I just noticed I have always read your screen name as 'Laxton's Superbra'. Sounds like pre-war Platex.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laxton's Superba:
They can. It's a Bishop's advisory panel, after all. But according to my DDO, if they overturn a decision, the diocese is then financially responsible for a candidate at the end of training and must "reserve" a curacy which could have gone to a properly approved candidate. Seems petty to me.
I don't think it's petty: a bishop prepared to overturn a BAP decision should feel strongly enough about the candidate to offer him or her a curacy. Otherwise the candidate is very likely to be left high and dry (or up a creek if you prefer) just a little further along the path.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
I can see the logic of the bishop having to guarantee a curacy if overturning the BAP decision, but when a diocese is a net exporter it probably makes the bishop reluctant to do so. I think there is an issue of there not being an appeals procedure if there are grounds to think that for some reason the BAP decision might not have been fair. The bishop could override in those circs, but a question may remain.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755
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Posted
Best wishes and many blessings.
Posts: 2641 | From: Third planet from the sun. USA | Registered: Nov 2004
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Indeed.
Very few dioceses, in reality, give curacies to their ordinands.
All dioceses give curacies to many of their ordinands. London, Oxford, and Cambridge are the three principal net exporters.
The church now generally expects that an ordinand should have sufficient breadth of experience (usually from placements and attachments during training) to be able to serve a curacy in a parish which does not precisely match their preferred liturgical style.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Laxton's Superba
Shipmate
# 228
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Posted
Obviously there need to be jobs for all those who want them but my point about pettiness was that it is post-Bap decision-overturn that the diocese has to guarantee a curacy; AFAIK this isn't done for someone approved by a BAP. And there is absolutely no comeback or feedback process; there is a report, but if there are inaccuracies or errors in it, there is no mechanism for challenging them.
Posts: 187 | From: I wish I knew | Registered: May 2001
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Panda
Shipmate
# 2951
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Posted
No indeed. I was recommended, and the report still infuriated me. My DDO said, 'It did its job; just put it in the file and forget about it.'
Posts: 1637 | From: North Wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
I agree about BAP reports; about their faultiness, and the difficulty of questioning anything in them whether or not you get recommended.
The reason why a bishop who overturns a BAP decision has to be prepared to fund training and find a curacy for the candidate concerned is that if, at the end of training, all the candidate has is the letter from the BAP and the fact that the Bishop has overturned it, the candidate won't be a good gamble for another diocese to take on. Meanwhile, candidates who got a 'recommended for training' have been recommended for training for the whole CofE---that's the purpose of the BAP--and so it will be easier for them to find curacies in or out of their sending dioceses.The bishop who wants to overturn a BAP decision really has to believe in what he's doing.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Indeed.
Very few dioceses, in reality, give curacies to their ordinands.
All dioceses give curacies to many of their ordinands. London, Oxford, and Cambridge are the three principal net exporters.
The church now generally expects that an ordinand should have sufficient breadth of experience (usually from placements and attachments during training) to be able to serve a curacy in a parish which does not precisely match their preferred liturgical style.
All the curacies here are in evangelical parishes (with one exception).
All ordinands on part-time courses have to train at evangelical colleges.
All but one of the last batch of deacons were from evangelical colleges.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Has anyone else heard of this scenario - we now have a Deanery Curate. Given the large area of the Deanery and the large number of churches, this is a challenging task. He will gain great experience in working in churches of every type of churchmanship, but he can't possibly get to know people in a significant way - even learning names of all but the staff and main officers will be a challenge. Perhaps this is peculiar to Creamtealand, or maybe the future for other Dioceses?
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
In our neck of the woods this has only beenmentioned as a possibility. But mentioned with some regularity........
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
I've seen team curates, and quite large teams, but not deanery
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
We have a curate from another parish in the deanery doing an occasional placement with us.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Indeed.
Very few dioceses, in reality, give curacies to their ordinands.
All dioceses give curacies to many of their ordinands. London, Oxford, and Cambridge are the three principal net exporters.
The church now generally expects that an ordinand should have sufficient breadth of experience (usually from placements and attachments during training) to be able to serve a curacy in a parish which does not precisely match their preferred liturgical style.
More than that for Incumbent Status. The Ministry in the C of E criteria is clear. They need to be mature enough to lead in pretty much any parish.
Also; Leo I am not sure what you mean by "here." But in the Diocese what you say is not true. And in the Deanery I work in we have 3 evangelical curates working in MoR and Liberal Catholic parishes.
We do tend to farm curates out around the Deanery on extended placement to give them a break from their training incumbents.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Indeed.
In this diocese, churches are now so monochrome that only evangelicals woulsd get a look in.
Liberals and catholics need to look elsewhere or be stultified.
Oh come on Leo - I'm in the same diocese as you and most of the Anglican clergy here are a world away from evangelical - open or otherwise.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
quote:
Originally posted by Laxton's Superba:
They can. It's a Bishop's advisory panel, after all. But according to my DDO, if they overturn a decision, the diocese is then financially responsible for a candidate at the end of training and must "reserve" a curacy which could have gone to a properly approved candidate. Seems petty to me.
I don't think it's petty: a bishop prepared to overturn a BAP decision should feel strongly enough about the candidate to offer him or her a curacy. Otherwise the candidate is very likely to be left high and dry (or up a creek if you prefer) just a little further along the path.
Thought so. I was once (although not an Anglican) a spiritual director and referee for a candidate at a BAP. BAP rejected him, the Bishop rang me and said "we can't let this happen", overturned the result and rest is history. Mind you, this chap did have a post to go to.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
for Incumbent Status. The Ministry in the C of E criteria is clear. They need to be mature enough to lead in pretty much any parish.
I cannot see how a vicar can be such a chamelion re- churchpersonship that s/he can:
believe that the bible is inerrant when working in an evangelical parish but not when elsewhere.
can preach thsat gays are going to hell in an evangelical parish but not elsewhere
can believe in the real presence in one place but put consecrated wine back into the bottle when in an evangelical parish.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
in the Diocese what you say is not true
It is a tangent to this thread about vocations and BAPs and also not right to name names but I could, in a face to face meeting which neither of us have time for:
go through the Dio' Directory parish by parish and show how many catholic and MOTR churches have gone evangelical
go through the last 4 ordination of deacons and priests' service booklets - the candidates' biog. sections, which show that virtually all of them came from evangelical colleges.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Indeed.
In this diocese, churches are now so monochrome that only evangelicals woulsd get a look in.
Liberals and catholics need to look elsewhere or be stultified.
Oh come on Leo - I'm in the same diocese as you and most of the Anglican clergy here are a world away from evangelical - open or otherwise.
See above reply to Pyx_e
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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