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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Whom shall we send? The Vocations Thread
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iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
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Posted
*bump*
How's everyone getting on?
I'm doing a bit better now we're more settled into our new house. I also had a bit of a "moment" at the communion service at the Greenbelt Festival this weekend just gone: one of the readings was the call of Peter from the end of John's gospels (Feed my lambs/tend my sheep), which is a reading I'd chosen to speak on recently at a diocesan vocations forum. Felt very moving.
Anyone else at Greenbelt this year?
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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/
Posts: 642 | From: London, UK | Registered: Feb 2010
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Laxton's Superba
Shipmate
# 228
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Posted
I'm still here. Looking to enrol on our diocesan mission and ministry course, and to carry on as some kind of licensed lay worker, possibly to go along to a few courses with the regional training course. I didn't do anything "vocation-ish" over the summer, deliberately to see if things still stirred me when I got back to normal.
Thinking of you all ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 187 | From: I wish I knew | Registered: May 2001
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
I was at Greenbelt and met Jade.
Had various conversations about vocation and my exploring continues...
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I think the nun thing is maybe a yes. I have never felt so unsuitable for a role ever.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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tessaB
Shipmate
# 8533
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Posted
Oh no, oh no, oh no!
Just had an email from the training people at diocese reminding us that we have two assignments to complete before we start the course. Please could we bring them to the Myers Briggs day on the 13th!!! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
So that gives me a week and a half to do all the reading and write two assignments (short but still!) and we start back at work tomorrow.
I am dead in the water before I even start.
I suppose I should look on it as a life-lesson. Don't put off that reading because you never know what it may contain. Such as instructions on assignments ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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tessaB
eating chocolate to the glory of God
Holiday cottage near Rye
Posts: 1068 | From: U.K. | Registered: Sep 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I think the nun thing is maybe a yes. I have never felt so unsuitable for a role ever.
Gideon woz 'ere. And a few others besides.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tessaB:
Oh no, oh no, oh no!
Just had an email from the training people at diocese reminding us that we have two assignments to complete before we start the course. Please could we bring them to the Myers Briggs day on the 13th!!!
So that gives me a week and a half to do all the reading and write two assignments (short but still!) and we start back at work tomorrow.
I am dead in the water before I even start.
I suppose I should look on it as a life-lesson. Don't put off that reading because you never know what it may contain. Such as instructions on assignments
Oh Lor', are they still addicted to Myers-Briggs? Surely it's the 'respectable' equivalent of reading chicken entrails... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
[ 03. September 2014, 13:19: Message edited by: Albertus ]
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I think the nun thing is maybe a yes. I have never felt so unsuitable for a role ever.
Maybe a yes? What does that mean? Sounds exciting! ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Oh Lor', are they still addicted to Myers-Briggs? Surely it's the 'respectable' equivalent of reading chicken entrails...
We do it on the other side of the C of E world too. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by tessaB:
Oh no, oh no, oh no!
Just had an email from the training people at diocese reminding us that we have two assignments to complete before we start the course. Please could we bring them to the Myers Briggs day on the 13th!!!
So that gives me a week and a half to do all the reading and write two assignments (short but still!) and we start back at work tomorrow.
I am dead in the water before I even start.
I suppose I should look on it as a life-lesson. Don't put off that reading because you never know what it may contain. Such as instructions on assignments
Oh Lor', are they still addicted to Myers-Briggs? Surely it's the 'respectable' equivalent of reading chicken entrails...
Myers Briggs is an excellent tool.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I'm sure the augurs used to say much the same thing. This is another of those times when I miss ken, who IIRC had very firm views on this, typically trenchantly expressed. TBF it's not so much the test that I object to- when i took it, I found it pretty accurate, though it didn't tell me anything I hadn't found already from various employment-related things- so much as the rather blind faith that I've found some vocations people seem to place in it as an off the shelf susbstitute for thinking.
[ 03. September 2014, 17:23: Message edited by: Albertus ]
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
He did indeed.
Scientific backing for MBTI is poor at best. But I think it can be useful for helping people think about how they and other people function, not in a limiting 'you're an ENFP therefore you'll be like this' way but in a 'different people approach stuff differently and recognising that can help us work together better' way. It should be a starting point for conversations not a pigeon-holing exercise.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Thanks, Carys, that is exactly what I meant, expressed much more clearly.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I found MBTI useful personally, but I am a less common type - it was nice to know that there are others similar to me out there.
I think I need to go and stay with some more (female) communities - I may go and visit SLG. Sisters of Bethany are also quite nearby.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]Myers Briggs is an excellent tool.
I think the debate on MBTI has been played on here before hasn't it?
It has no scientific basis and it is founded on the work and world view of Carl Jung, an atheist. At best, it seems to point out what's blindly obvious and the fact that we're all different. Really? I'd never have noticed that.
For me the big issue is being pigeonholed into a type or category: I happen to be a human being. God doesn't do that, why should we?
A good profile of interviews and interviewers negates the need for such "profiling."
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
...I think the debate on MBTI has been played on here before hasn't it?...
Yes, it has - if folks wish to pursue a discussion of the effectiveness or whatever of Myers-Briggs then I suggest they start a new thread, in Purgatory.
Thanks.
WW - AS Host
[ 04. September 2014, 07:19: Message edited by: Welease Woderwick ]
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
for all facing BAP's, all who are hearing God's call and taking first steps, and all who are in the process of training.
May God bless you with inner strength, patience and peace. Amen.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
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Posted
Another *bump* as the Hosts are wielding their autumnal dustpans and brushes for threads to sweep into Oblivion!
Zizioulas and I had a very pleasant shipmeet for two a couple of weeks back - in true ship fashion there was both excellent beer and conversation.
I know we're a rather scattered group, but has there ever been any thought of a ship's vocations meet? For anyone involved at any stage of the selection process, and those who've been through it. Just a thought.
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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/
Posts: 642 | From: London, UK | Registered: Feb 2010
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tessaB
Shipmate
# 8533
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Posted
Totally up for that! Could I ask for prayers please for 'Stuart' who started our course last week and faces his BAP this week?
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tessaB
eating chocolate to the glory of God
Holiday cottage near Rye
Posts: 1068 | From: U.K. | Registered: Sep 2004
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I would love a Ship vocations meet. London is very easily accessible for me and I have a friend I can stay overnight with, FWIW.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
for Stuart, and for R, a friend whose BAP is this week too. May our Lord give them strength and guidance, and send the Holy Spirit to make sure that God's will is done.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
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Posted
Great! Really glad others think a meet is a good idea too. I love the internet, but sometimes meeting face-to-face is nice.
What would people like to do? Just meet up over tea/coffee/beer/<insert poison here>, or go to a church service somewhere first, or neither, or, or, or?
What do people think about inviting others who aren't on SoF? I'm very happy with that, and I've a friend in the discernment process who isn't on SoF who might possibly be interested. Would perfectly understand if others preferred to keep it within the ship.
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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/
Posts: 642 | From: London, UK | Registered: Feb 2010
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tessaB
Shipmate
# 8533
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Posted
Well I'm planning on bringing beloved husband, so I guess if that's allright, why not?
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tessaB
eating chocolate to the glory of God
Holiday cottage near Rye
Posts: 1068 | From: U.K. | Registered: Sep 2004
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Laxton's Superba
Shipmate
# 228
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Posted
Bump.
Anyone have experience of the "Mission-Shaped Ministry" course?
Posts: 187 | From: I wish I knew | Registered: May 2001
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iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
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Posted
Not something I'm familiar with I'm afraid LS.
My first meeting with a diocesan vocations advisor is this evening. It's been a long time coming and now it's here I am a bit nervous. I've done all I know best to steady my nerves - quiet time in prayer in my lunch hour at the church nearest to where I work, followed by Mass. So it's all down to God now!
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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/
Posts: 642 | From: London, UK | Registered: Feb 2010
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Laxton's Superba
Shipmate
# 228
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Posted
hope it goes well and that you are able to articulate what you need to get across.
Posts: 187 | From: I wish I knew | Registered: May 2001
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
Hope it went well, Iamchristian.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
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iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
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Posted
It went...OK. I felt it could have gone a lot better though. My main feeling was being a bit rushed through things by the Vocations Advisor, not in terms of how quickly I should progress through the process or anything like that, but when telling my account of what had brought me to this stage. I felt the VA kept wanting to jump ahead rather which meant I would do that, and then have to backtrack to fill in important details I hadn't got to yet; which inevitably meant that there were things I missed out, or didn't explain well. It threw me a bit really as the previous times I've been through my story up to this point have been very laid-back convivial affairs at leisure with my incumbent (over beer!) and the incumbent of the adjacent parish, who is also a Vocations Advisor in the diocese, just not my assigned Advisor.
It's not all bad I don't think, as I've been sent away with another (!) book to read and we've set another date to meet again in December. It just wasn't quite the experience I'd hoped for.
(I don't want to dissect things in too much detail here as all of this is public, and how many people had meetings with Vocations Advisors last night?!)
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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/
Posts: 642 | From: London, UK | Registered: Feb 2010
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Niminypiminy
Shipmate
# 15489
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Posted
It's easy to say with hindsight, I know, but my experience of the process is that whether you felt the meeting went well isn't the key thing -- it's whether you are going back for another meeting. You're still in the process, the door is still open. Even though you can't help picking over the meeting and analysing and re-analysing it, the main thing is the next meeting, which always feels as if it is an age away.
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Lives of the Saints: songs by The Unequal Struggle
http://www.theunequalstruggle.com/
Posts: 776 | From: Edge of the Fens | Registered: Feb 2010
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
The va is there to help you to discern your vocation, as I understand it, rather than being an assessor. It should be OK to ask for time to spill everything out. Above all, keep praying, ask for the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and that God's will be done.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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orinocco
Shipmate
# 5083
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Posted
Hi,
I had meetings with the vocations advisor which seemed to go well and she was recommending me to go to a local selection panel next month. Then last night I got an email saying that they won't recommend me to the panel. They accept that I may have a genuine calling but feel that I am lacking evidence in a number of key areas namely the exercise of leadership, the practical application of mission and evangelism and the ability to deal with some pastoral situations empathically across a range of ages.
Feeling shocked and crushed ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
I have been involved with running a parent toddler group at church, I am a lay chaplain at the cathedral and I work in healthcare all of which involve dealing with people across a range of ages and the first two involve mission and evangelism!
I would love to be more involved in church stuff but working shifts makes it difficult and I have explained this.
I led am Emmaus course last year.
I really don't know what else I could have done.
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overground, underground, wombling free
My Live Journal
Posts: 364 | From: The birthplace of St. George (allegedly) | Registered: Oct 2003
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iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
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Posted
I am so sorry to hear that. It makes my own minor disappointment at a (what I perceive to be) bad meeting pale into insignificance.
Do you not have any right of appeal over this? I know every diocese does things completely differently, but where we are the idea is to meet with a vocations advisor 3-4 times at the very beginning of the discernment process and by the end of that they will write a report (which hopefully you agree with) about whether they think you should go further or not. By further that simply means going to see the DDO and then as long as it takes from then to get to BAP. But if the VA does not recommend you to go further, then you have the right to appeal, you would have a one off meeting with another VA who could in theory overturn the original decision.
It sucks.
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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/
Posts: 642 | From: London, UK | Registered: Feb 2010
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orinocco
Shipmate
# 5083
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Posted
My vocations advisor said she would recommend me onto the next stage but it seems that other members of the team on reviewing my file have said no. She has offered to set up a meeting for me with various people involved, but I don't know if it will make any difference.
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overground, underground, wombling free
My Live Journal
Posts: 364 | From: The birthplace of St. George (allegedly) | Registered: Oct 2003
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
It's just bollocks. I don't understand why the vocations process is so often like this. They are so rarely clear and open about what they are looking for, they claim that it is about discrenment but often make their minds up very early, and people who really actually don't know you very well take it upon themsleves, on very limited evidence, to make all sorts of sweeping generalisations about you.
Fuck'em. Shake the dust off your feet. You know who you are: go on being you.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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orinocco
Shipmate
# 5083
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Posted
Thinking about it some more this morning I also feel they've judged me on what I do at church and nothing else. I am a support worker / healthcare assistant and have worked in palliative care, which surely must mean I have some pastoral skills. I am also a school governor which involves leadership, but they haven't spoken to work colleagues or to the head teacher or other school governors.
Mission and evangelism should surely be about being out there in the world, I often end up having conversations in the pub about faith with people, to the extent that someone even asked me if I could marry them! but it seems like because it's not an official thing, it's just random conversations when out having a drink, it doesn't count with the church as mission.
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overground, underground, wombling free
My Live Journal
Posts: 364 | From: The birthplace of St. George (allegedly) | Registered: Oct 2003
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iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
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Posted
I think that if you want to stay in the process you'll have to have to ask for that meeting to be arranged, and go to it.
I think you'd know in advance what concerns/queries they would have (you've been told as much), so would be well armed as to what to say, and to explain how they related to the various relevant Criteria for Selection (shudder).
What seems strange is that they seem to think you have a calling, but other areas need work. Instead of helping you work on those areas, they're just saying no. Doesn't make sense to me.
"exercise of leadership"
"the practical application of mission and evangelism"
"the ability to deal with some pastoral situations empathically across a range of ages"
We all know vicars who are good at some of the above, none of the above and all of the above...
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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/
Posts: 642 | From: London, UK | Registered: Feb 2010
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
I think that if you want to stay in the process you'll have to have to ask for that meeting to be arranged, and go to it.
I think you'd know in advance what concerns/queries they would have (you've been told as much), so would be well armed as to what to say, and to explain how they related to the various relevant Criteria for Selection (shudder).
What seems strange is that they seem to think you have a calling, but other areas need work. Instead of helping you work on those areas, they're just saying no. Doesn't make sense to me.
"exercise of leadership"
"the practical application of mission and evangelism"
"the ability to deal with some pastoral situations empathically across a range of ages"
We all know vicars who are good at some of the above, none of the above and all of the above...
This. Hold on to trust in God, Orinocco. Sometimes people get in the way, sometimes the timing isn't right. God will ultimately open the way for your calling. When the doors open, it's tough on the other side of them, so the more work you can do in the interim, the better.
My prayers remain with you. My pm still stands.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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orinocco
Shipmate
# 5083
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Posted
Thank you everyone for your supportive comments.
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overground, underground, wombling free
My Live Journal
Posts: 364 | From: The birthplace of St. George (allegedly) | Registered: Oct 2003
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
Orinocco.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Laxton's Superba
Shipmate
# 228
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Posted
Orinoco, I feel for you. I had similar remarks at my BAP. I said that I had limited leadership experience but that I felt this was something I could develop, and that I knew I had (by virtue of complicated circumstance) less practical experience of M&E but that I had taken steps to develop this. Lo and behold, the BAP was a No, based on both these. I was very cross. Despite the blurb all being about having some of the criteria nailed, they still expect you to sail into their offices fulfilling every one, perfecto.
Do go to the meeting. Argue your case (nicely). Stand up for yourself and what God is calling you to.
Posts: 187 | From: I wish I knew | Registered: May 2001
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
Make notes on their points before you go to the meeting and take the notes with you - you may not necessarily use them but have them there and don't be embarrassed about bringing them out if you wish to - it shows you have thought things through.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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orinocco
Shipmate
# 5083
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Posted
Have had a chat with my priest and with the Canon Pastor at the Cathedral.
From what my priest said it sounds as if the question over mission is due to one blog post I wrote in June on messy church. That no where near represents the whole of my thinking on mission, it was written at a specific time in response to a specific event! my blog post
When they said about dealing with pastoral situations I got the impression they were referring to the fact that I stammer, but without actually saying that. I have sent them various articles written be RC priests who stammer but apparently RC priests view priesthood differently an do less pastoral work ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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overground, underground, wombling free
My Live Journal
Posts: 364 | From: The birthplace of St. George (allegedly) | Registered: Oct 2003
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
orinocco
It all seems pretty baffling from where I'm sitting!
Sorry for my radio silence generally - have been really poorly and busy visiting convents. Would still like a meetup!
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
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Posted
Orinocco, you know how highly I rate your Canon pastor but as a friend I'm rather biased! I'm sure she'll be a great source of support.
Re stutter, that or something similar didn't stop Moses! I often wonder how many of the Patriarchs, Prophets and Apostles would satisfy the criteria for selection... What does that say?!
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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/
Posts: 642 | From: London, UK | Registered: Feb 2010
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
Re stutter, that or something similar didn't stop Moses! I often wonder how many of the Patriarchs, Prophets and Apostles would satisfy the criteria for selection... What does that say?!
I seem to recall hearing a sermon preached to the effect that St. Peter would have been told to go and get some A-Levels and come back, while St. Paul would have been rejected by a selection conference.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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orinocco
Shipmate
# 5083
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Posted
Had the meeting with the vocations team today and their reasons seem a little clearer. The main one seems to be lack of evidence of leadership, of me taking the initiative and doing stuff. I can see thier point in one sense. However for the past couple of years I have been pretty mnuch working on a zero hours contract at only just above minimum wage. The more I commit to having to be around at a cetain time for church stuff, the more more money, that I can't afford, I am potentialy losing by not being available for work.
Also on reflection I think I was more affected by my Dad's illness and death and by some major stress issues at work than I had realised and over the past year have felt very tired and motivation at times has been hard.
It has made me wonder if the vocations system needs to adapt to take into accout modern working patterns and the issue of people in low wage jobs who have to work a lot of hours and therefore may not be able to do all the stuff the vocation teams seem to expect but can still have a genuine calling.
The other issue mentioned was it was felt that I am not prepared to meet people where they are in terms of mission. Not sure what I think about this one. In thinking about this comment in relation to messy church and mission I sometimes think the church is becoming to focused on families and quite middle class in its focus. Most of the people I know on a weekend will be in the pub or at the football (if they are not working), certainly not coming to messy church. I would rather see mission focused on getting out of church and to the pub or doing something at the football!
The basic line seemed to be that many people have a genuine calling but don't meet the national criteria, which to me raises the question do we need to change the criteria?
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overground, underground, wombling free
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Posts: 364 | From: The birthplace of St. George (allegedly) | Registered: Oct 2003
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
It is good that you have had the chance to find out what their thinking is, orinocco. ISTM that there is a mismatch between calling and the demands of organised church ministry, hence my thread in Purg. That's pretty much what you are saying too, isn't it?
In the end, all we can do is to hold onto our faith in God and persevere. A calling doesn't go away.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
It is good that you have had the chance to find out what their thinking is, orinocco. ISTM that there is a mismatch between calling and the demands of organised church ministry, hence my thread in Purg. That's pretty much what you are saying too, isn't it?
In the end, all we can do is to hold onto our faith in God and persevere. A calling doesn't go away.
Indeed not. Mine has been hovering around for some time (and had a similar phase to Orinocco) and is now going in an interesting direction...
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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