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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Whom shall we send? The Vocations Thread
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Oh yes, I understood that. But a lot of those 'outsiders' would think that becoming a nun (or a monk for that matter) was a weird thing to do anyway. What matters more is what you think and what the order you're interested in joining thinks.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Jante
Shipmate
# 9163
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Posted
Approximately 10 years ago I started posting here to ask questions and record my journey of vocation and discernment. Now I am able to post that I have been appointed as Priest in Charge to five small parishes in the south of Derbyshire.
When I started life was difficult, there have been many stops and starts along the journey and this forum helped keep may sane at times- many thanks and prayers for all who are still on this path. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
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My blog http://vicarfactorycalling.blogspot.com/
Posts: 535 | From: deepest derbyshire | Registered: Mar 2005
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Masha
Shipmate
# 10098
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Posted
Hooray, Jante!
Congratulations.
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
Congratulations, Jante!
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
Hello Nanny Plum, Welcome! Fire away, we will help as best we can.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Nanny Plum is a Legend
Apprentice
# 18497
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Posted
Thanks, both!
I suppose what I want to ask is "is this par for the course?" as the discernment process seems a bit strange and I feel a bit lost at the moment.
On the advice of two friends (one a Lay Reader, the other an ordinand) and also my mother (also a Reader), having had some inklings of being called, I approached my Rector to talk about vocation earlier this year. When we met, he immediately asked me "stipendiary or non-stipendiary?" which wasn't what I was expecting at all.
I was surprised but then also flattered, if I'm honest, that he felt I had potential... and then I got concerned at being flattered (if that makes sense). That isn't what this is about, is it? It's about me discerning God's particular call for me - and not jumping to conclusions and certainly not letting pride get in the way!
Or false humility?!
Anyway... things have progressed a little. I meet reasonably regularly with our associate Rector, and am taking the Diocesan 1 year course in discipleship, which I'm finding very interesting, and I've been invited to lead Evensong twice - and will I think be doing it again on Sunday - and have helped at a funeral and two weddings.
So... when my Reader friend and her ordinand husband ask me why my Rector hasn't put me forward for a Vocations forum yet, should I be worried? Or is this normal? Should I be pushing? Or waiting and listening?
All advice (and prayers!) very welcome.
Thanks
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iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
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Posted
I have some thoughts and suggestions which I'll put down later, but I'm in the car (being driven, not driving) after the BAP!
Without wanting to pry too much, some more context would be helpful such as your age and how long you've been a Christian.
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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/
Posts: 642 | From: London, UK | Registered: Feb 2010
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Nanny Plum is a Legend
Apprentice
# 18497
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Posted
Ah yes - that was all rather out of context, wasn't it?!
I'm 45 (how did that happen?) and grew up attending a reasonably high Anglican church. Confirmed at 13. Totally committed. Then my big sister died unexpectedly and suddenly just before Christmas (Dec 19th) in 1984. It was a terrible terrible time. Four years later my father died suddenly. I then went to University - and really struggled with my faith. It was always there, but I was very very confused and lost and very sad.
Gradually started going back to church because of choirs... then in 2000 started going regularly again. Then moved house and from 2007 have been a regular communicant at my current church. A few years ago I ended up unexpectedly going through a real grieving process for my sister - something I just wasn't able to do at the time (my 14-year-old friends understandably thought I should pull myself together and didn't "get" it.)
I go to two Bible study groups - one through church and one local to my work - and am part of a prayer network at the office. And I'm now doing the Bishop's certificate - all of which is making me realise just how much there is to learn, but I love it!
So... my Rector knows me pretty well. Aside from the two bereavements mentioned, my husband has a progressive disability and can no longer work, and although I have two wonderful children I have also had two miscarriages. But another clergyman I know mentioned the phrase "wounded healer" to me the other day and that very much resonated.
All of this is poss wayyyyyy too much information - but I hope it's useful!!
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Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927
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Posted
Nanny Plum, a lot of this is fairly historical but just a kindly hostly nod to a newcomer. It is possible to overshare and to forget that these are public boards and once something is out there, then you can't retrieve it. I think what you have said is fine and has bearing on your discernment process. As I said, a friendly word of advice from a host.
I should have said welcome at the beginning of this. So welcome aboard and smooth sailing.
Lothlorien, AS Host.
[ 05. November 2015, 10:26: Message edited by: Lothlorien ]
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Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.
Posts: 9745 | From: girt by sea | Registered: Aug 2003
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Nanny Plum is a Legend
Apprentice
# 18497
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Posted
Ok - I apologise. Is there no way to delete my comment then? I realise I've overshared and feel embarassed now. Sorry!
Posts: 17 | Registered: Nov 2015
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Nanny Plum is a Legend
Apprentice
# 18497
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Posted
Ah yes - Commandment No. 2. I did re-read, but didn't realise after-the-fact editing wasn't permitted. Oh well.
Posts: 17 | Registered: Nov 2015
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iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
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Posted
Hi NPIAL,
Firstly, thank you for sharing what you did, and let me apologise if what I said unfairly jumped you into sharing more than you otherwise might have done. It was just particularly in relation to the timing considerations and whether things were progressing or not, I might have said one thing if you were 21 and another if you were 55!
On the first point you raised about feeling flattered, I think that's a perfectly normal reaction when you receive that kind of response. The issue would be if it led to a sense of pride. However, the fact that you're conscious of your feelings and questioning them would indicate that that's unlikely. It may also be a question of the words you use? You might say you "felt flattered" and that could sound negative; but if you would describe those same feelings by saying you "felt affirmed or encouraged" that could sound quite different.
As to timing, there really is no one rule here. In one sense you need to adjust to the fact that a lot of the timing will be dictated by others - I found some gaps in my journey pretty frustrating.
But you also need to have an idea in your mind about timescale and how ready you feel to discuss your feelings on vocation more widely. Once you get into the diocesan process the intensity kicks up and you'll be asked to talk to more and more different people and dig down deeply into all sorts of things. It could sometimes feel very to the point, quite matter of fact and quite different from the gentle chats I remember with my vicar. So one question to ask yourself is whether you're ready to move beyond discussing things only at parish/local level.
The other thing you can always do is talk to your Rector/Associate Rector about it, and whether they think you're ready to go to the diocese. Broaching the topic may not be easy of course.
You've obviously been getting involved with leading services and things. It may be that the Rector/Associate want you to get some more experience of that before going to the diocese. In the discernment process, one of the criteria they'll be assessing is your Leadership experience (both in church and out).
The other thing is that once some diocesan processes get going they can be super fast - London, for instance, races along at a pace which is too fast for a lot of people. Others are much more reasonable, my own diocese of Southwark for instance. So, it may be that your Rector/Associate is aware that your diocese is one of the quicker ones and thinks you'd benefit from a bit more time before getting on the diocesan rollercoaster.
The idea of wounded healer is important to me too, given some of my past experiences of being hurt (by churches). You may find Henri Nouwen's "The Wounded Healer" a helpful read. The book of the same name by J B Phillips is also good, and comes from quite a different tradition from Nouwen.
Blessings for your discernment journey. You will be in my prayers.
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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/
Posts: 642 | From: London, UK | Registered: Feb 2010
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Nanny Plum is a Legend
Apprentice
# 18497
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Posted
Thank you (. ), for your kind and thoughtful reply. It sounds like this is all pretty much par for the course, which is reassuring.
Your point about being ready to discuss feelings on vocation more widely has helped me, as I realise I'm definitely not ready for that yet. For one thing I'm sure my theology is full of holes... (hence the Bible study and course and so on).
Leadership-wise, outside the church I have significant (successful and happy - ie whilst delivering on objectives my staff do also say they like working with me!) senior management experience in business - but need to gain more church experience. Does secular experience count? My clergy seem to glaze over when I talk about my day job.
I'm sure part of this is learning to be patient, and to listen, and not to pre-empt.
Thank you for the book recommendations. I will look them up
Real life name deleted. Please use screen names only.
Lothlorien, AS host
[ 05. November 2015, 22:01: Message edited by: Lothlorien ]
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Nanny Plum is a Legend: For one thing I'm sure my theology is full of holes...
Welcome to the Ship then, where we'll do our best to confuse your theology even more ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
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Posted
I think everyone's theology is always full of holes! Nature of the thing really.
At some stage you'll encounter the delightful "Criteria for Selection", which includes a whole section on "Faith". It's clear from that that you don't need to be a fully fledged theologian to be considered for training. It's more about showing you've thought about it and learned about a variety of Anglican traditions (which I'm sure the Bishop's certificate will cover); thought about how your experiences have shaped your theology; and demonstrated that you can communicate your faith.
Secular leadership experience definitely counts for consideration of "Leadership and Collaboration". They'll ask about both secular and church experience. Not sure why the clergy should glaze over?!
Patience will definitely be required!
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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/
Posts: 642 | From: London, UK | Registered: Feb 2010
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
...The other thing is that once some diocesan processes get going they can be super fast - London, for instance, races along at a pace which is too fast for a lot of people. Others are much more reasonable, my own diocese of Southwark for instance. ...
Or you might, in my admittedly limited experience find that it takes forever even to get to talk to somebody, for example because the diocese is between Directors of Ordinands. Remember that dioceses are organisations like any other and that, like any other, they can be prone to administrative problems. If you're unlucky enough to find this is the case, and you and/or your Rector actually have to do a bit of pushing, don't let it discourage you.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nanny Plum is a Legend:
Ok - I apologise. Is there no way to delete my comment then? I realise I've overshared and feel embarassed now. Sorry!
I think you will be fine. I doubt it is a problem here but even if you could delete your post, there will be a record generally on internet. It is a bit like the carpenter's rule. Measure twice and cut once.
Posts can be deleted but only in the very short edit time available here. After that it stays.
If you have a query, you can send a private message or email to a host. Our names are at the top of the All Saints board..
There are lots of helpful people here who will probably reply to your posts.
I look forward to your participation here.
Lothlorien, AS host.
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Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.
Posts: 9745 | From: girt by sea | Registered: Aug 2003
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Cenobite
Shipmate
# 14853
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Posted
First of all, welcome Nanny Plum is a Legend (great name!)
I'm making an assumption that you're talking about discernment in the Church of England (it seems likely from what you've said so far!) - if not, then ignore what I'm about to say.
A friend of mine has recently created a guide to discernment in the CofE, which you can read here:
A short guide to surviving 'The Discernment Process' in the Church of England.
I emphasise that this is not mine, nor did I have any hand in its production! But I do think it is an excellent resource for people like yourself who are just beginning the process. Hope you find it useful.
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Cenobite: means "Common Life"; cenobites lived in community, serving one another and the rest of humanity.
Posts: 109 | From: On a journey of discovery. | Registered: Jun 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
Not sure why the clergy should glaze over?!
Partly because they feel threatened by people who are leaders as result of gifting when in most denominations the "leaders" are there by virtue of position. Loads of administrators in the church, quite a few managers but leaders are very scarce indeed.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
Nanny Plum, personally I would be more worried by a candidate who thought they had it all sorted than one whose theology was shot full of holes - which is probably why I will never be an ordained person, but remain one of those awkward people who is always questioning.
Best wishes with working out your calling.
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Nanny Plum is a Legend
Apprentice
# 18497
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Posted
Kind-of like an emmental cheese...
Thanks so much, everyone. I'm glad I posted here! I have a catch up with the associate Rector on Sunday, and have my first essay deadline next week. Will keep you posted!
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Nanny Plum is a Legend
Apprentice
# 18497
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Posted
I meant to say, Cenobite, that yes, this is Church of England.
Led solemn Evensong again on Sunday. I love that service.
Thank you very much for the link to your friend's discernment guide. Extremely interesting reading!
[ 10. November 2015, 09:24: Message edited by: Nanny Plum is a Legend ]
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Cenobite
Shipmate
# 14853
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nanny Plum is a Legend:
I meant to say, Cenobite, that yes, this is Church of England.
Led solemn Evensong again on Sunday. I love that service.
Thank you very much for the link to your friend's discernment guide. Extremely interesting reading!
You're welcome - glad you found it interesting!
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Cenobite: means "Common Life"; cenobites lived in community, serving one another and the rest of humanity.
Posts: 109 | From: On a journey of discovery. | Registered: Jun 2009
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TonyK
Host Emeritus
# 35
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Posted
Following on from one or two posts in this thread, and the related thread in the Styx, some hostly thoughts.
We all, perhaps, tend to think of vocation, discernment and calling as all being related to the ordained ministry. Certainly I've noticed this in the Church of England (the only denomination with which I'm really familiar) where diocesan communications are phrased in this way, and the same terms are used within the congregations. The Thread title also gives the same impression.
There is certainly nothing wrong in shipmates using this thread to discuss the 'call' to the priesthood - but equally there is nothing wrong in discussing 'calls' to other roles in the Church, or indeed in the secular world.
I may only be a Reader (one of Dyfrig's 'blue-scarfed menaces!), and, when I was employed, a manager in a computer department, but I certainly feel that God called me to both roles,that both were my vocation and that neither was more important than the other.
There has been some suggestion that we might have other threads to discuss different vocations. Although there is nothing to prevent a shipmate from starting another thread, I feel that the width and scope of this thread is to be encouraged, enabling us to discuss all aspects of vocation, calling etc, as they all come from God for the furtherance of the Kingdom.
Yours aye ... TonyK
Guest Host, All Saints
Posts: 2717 | From: Gloucestershire | Registered: May 2001
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iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
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Posted
This is also posted on the Styx thread...
My only observation here would be that the Ship "Vocations thread" is one of the very few places those of us discerning whether we are called to a specific church-based ministry (be that lay, diaconal, priestly, or the religious life) can come for support and advice, confidentially if need be.
In the "real world" it is much harder to get that sort of support and advice if you don't happen to know the right people. I cannot stress how important this particular thread has been as a source of information and support on my own journey of discernment up to this point.
Whatever happens to the thread, it would be a great shame for this resource to be lost.
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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
I think it good to have a broad based thread, after all someone who is discerning a call may not have considered other than the priesthood, and God's calling may be into an order as a monk or a nun, a lay ministry, chaplaincy, etc.
It also allows those of us who are not ordained to feel free to contribute, to support those who are being called, and to pray for you. If it were confined to 'priests only' we may feel as if we were intruding.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
Yes! That's wonderful news, iamchristianhearmeroar. ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
Congratulations, Iamchristian, and good luck!
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
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Posted
Thanks all. is certainly the feeling!
Jante - I think Westcott would probably be number one choice, but I've not been to any open days yet. Plenty of time (although two slight wrinkles):
- First is that I probably won't start training until September 2017. My wife is expecting our second baby at the beginning of next year, and we're a little wary of planning to do too much too soon after the birth. My wife's first labour was not straightforward and it took her a long time to recover physically, so the last thing we want to be doing is to be thinking about clearing the house for a tenant if my wife's not up to it physically. The DDO is very supportive of this, and almost everyone I've spoken to (friends, family, church) say "Oh yes, definitely 2017". I think that's the Holy Spirit saying something...
- The other wrinkle is that I need to go to a candidates panel. I'm being sponsored as a potential theological educator, which means doing a three year rather than two year course. But due to my age (I'm one year too old at 32!) I need to go to a further panel to convince them I'm worth the extra money. Hopefully not as pressured as the BAP itself, but I'll cross that bridge when it comes!
EDITED TO CORRECT TYPO
[ 16. November 2015, 11:00: Message edited by: iamchristianhearmeroar ]
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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/
Posts: 642 | From: London, UK | Registered: Feb 2010
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Congratulations - also I've just realised who you are on Facebook! ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
In which case Westcott is probably a good fit, but do also consider Queens (Rachel Mann is an alum - is that the right word?) and the Methodist presence is I think very welcome. I think Queens gets rather forgotten about! There is also Cuddesdon which I think is very popular with ordinands with families.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
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Posted
Thanks Pomona, I know who you are on facebook too! (Just FYI I'm not putting anything up about this on facebook as my work don't yet know (apart from my referee who I trust). Someone from work could find out who I am through the ship, but afaik noone from work is a shipmate...)
I'd not really thought about Queens, but will look into it. Cuddesdon, I've thought about, and in many ways it's attractive. But my main concern is how isolated it is. The fact that you need to drive to get almost anywhere is pretty offputting to me, and very offputting to my wife who is a real city girl. Environmentally it's not brilliant either!
I tried a year or so ago to see if there was interest in a ship vocations meet-up somewhere, and I think there was interest, including you Pomona! With all the BAP stuff I rather let that all slip, so I'll give it another go and ask who'd be keen for a get-together somewhere?
As I mentioned last time round, if I organise it I'll selfishly say let's do it somewhere in London (as that's where I am), but apart from that I'm pretty easy as to what we do, be that meet in a pub, or go to a service somewhere, or both, or more things as well. Any thoughts/suggestions very gratefully received!
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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Queens is probably a good idea to look into, then. I would actually recommend Cranmer too - it's really very diverse now - but the distance might be offputting to you.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
(Rachel Mann is an alum - is that the right word?)
Having just checked I think "Alumna". It is one of the few words in English which has not just different male and female singular form but gendered plurals as well.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Jante
Shipmate
# 9163
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Posted
Cuddesdon is a lovely environment for families- but yes you do need to drive most places particularly with young ones as the bus only goes into Oxford once every 2 hours. That said we had a lot of families and shared lifts is the norm and encouraged. There was a very supportive spouses group for the women- my husband felt out of it as we are well past the baby stage! Theologically it is very well rounded and we had a number of ordinands that were potential theological educators. But then I suppose I am biased as I had a wonderful time there ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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My blog http://vicarfactorycalling.blogspot.com/
Posts: 535 | From: deepest derbyshire | Registered: Mar 2005
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aig
Shipmate
# 429
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Posted
Congratulations! Westcott is great - you are in the middle of Cambridge with a supermarkets, shops and a decent park all 5 minutes away. There is some family accommodation on site or ordinands with families live in rented accommodation nearby. When I was there, there was a very active spouses group.
The tradition of the house is broadly Catholic and you will learn how to mutter the psalms - a useful skill for your later ministry - there is also a tradition of good and creative music.
The ordinand experience is very full on - but I suspect it is in any college.
Do what everyone says - visit lots of college open days - and you will know which one fits best.
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That's not how we do it here.......
Posts: 464 | From: the middle bit at the bottom slightly to the right | Registered: Jun 2001
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iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
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Posted
Thanks Jante and aig. Both Cuddesdon and Westcott will be on the list to visit. As one of catholic tendencies they're both a pretty natural fit, as is Mirfield of course. Westcott has the advantage that both my wife and I were undergrads in Cambridge (where we met!), so it's a familiar place and we still have friends there. So would make the transition, particularly for my wife, much easier. Whether it's good to be comfortable or not is a good question, but if my wife's not happy where we go it won't work for either of us.
Plenty to discuss with the DDO tomorrow!
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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/
Posts: 642 | From: London, UK | Registered: Feb 2010
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Jenn.
Shipmate
# 5239
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Posted
Comfortable is OK. There is plenty of challenge in training for ordination, with theological challenges and practical ones. A comfortable place to say the daily office can be very grounding in that sort of upheaval.
Posts: 2282 | From: England | Registered: Nov 2003
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Jante
Shipmate
# 9163
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Posted
And as someone whose spouse hated college ( it wouldn't have mattered which one I went to) then yes the happiness of your wife is very important to your ability to fully enter into life and study at college.
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My blog http://vicarfactorycalling.blogspot.com/
Posts: 535 | From: deepest derbyshire | Registered: Mar 2005
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jenn.:
Comfortable is OK. There is plenty of challenge in training for ordination, with theological challenges and practical ones. A comfortable place to say the daily office can be very grounding in that sort of upheaval.
That sounds very sensible. Challenges of training, giving up your old life and moving, and the prospect of a new kid who'll be going through the 'terrible twos'- yep, comfort can be a good thing.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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moonfruit
Shipmate
# 15818
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Posted
iamchristian, apologies for the lateness of my comment, but: congratulations! Great news from your BAP And all the best with looking at / discussing colleges.
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All I know is that you came and made beauty from my mess.
Posts: 180 | From: Just outside the M25 | Registered: Aug 2010
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Thread bump! How is everyone getting on?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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