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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Whom shall we send? The Vocations Thread
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
Howz this for a vocational explanation?:
quote:
"I am the first generation of people for whom Christianity is a form of rebellion."
He presses on: "I still find it extraordinary that this is what I do. There is always a degree of puzzle about it. And yet it is utterly right.
It is part of what I am and feel I have to be. The puzzle is how to explain my conviction.
It is like falling in love. The night before I got married, my brother sat me down in a curry house in Ripon and asked me to give him all the reasons why this was the right thing to do and write them on a napkin…" This was a preposterous request because "commitment exceeds your capacity to explain it".
Rev Giles Fraser
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Masha
Shipmate
# 10098
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Posted
Hello vocational people!
Hope you're all doing well on your different paths.
I have come to a bit of a 'Hmmm. What the ...?' moment in mine so I'm hoping that someone wise might advise me!
If I feel (as I do) that I should offer for ordained ministry, do I go for Stipendiary or do I stick with the day job and go for NSM?
Obviously I'm not asking for an answer - just your ideas on how you went about deciphering your vocation. I'm lost! With no map!!
[ 12. January 2012, 21:21: Message edited by: Masha ]
Posts: 308 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Niminypiminy
Shipmate
# 15489
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Posted
Hello *Masha*. I'm lost in the same part of the country, and it's foggy here as well as mapless.
I think the only thing one can do is go on into the uncertainty and pray that bit by bit it will become clear what your path is and where it is going.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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Lives of the Saints: songs by The Unequal Struggle
http://www.theunequalstruggle.com/
Posts: 776 | From: Edge of the Fens | Registered: Feb 2010
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Arch Anglo Catholic
Shipmate
# 15181
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Posted
The decision on whether to be NSM/MSE or stipendiary is certainly a challenge. At the moment, I'm distinctly on the first track as the way in which my 'formation' has taken place, and the pointers toward vocation have been very much in that direction and in the place in which I now live.
That's not to say that things might not change! The Holy Spirit does very strange things, to be sure.
May I suggest that you look at what has driven you to this point in your journey, and to ask some searching questions?
Is the desire to be an NSM our of fear of change, comfort in your present position and security, or is it because you feel drawn to this place, time and people?
It's really difficult to be honest with yourself, I know, but worthwhile!
Try talking to other friends who have some understanding of your vocation, your incumbent perhaps too, and get a sense for where they see you too.
God doesn't leave us out on a limb, the signs are there for us but His voice is gentle in comparison with our noise and clutter.
Posts: 144 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Sep 2009
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Laxton's Superba
Shipmate
# 228
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Posted
What good advice AAC.
I have had my 2 vocations assessors interviews and they have both given me the nod to go forward to see the Bishop. Yikes. Now I was talking with my parish priest today and he reckons there is a vast imbalance in the system over numbers of evangelicals selected, with evangelicals making up more than 75% of all those accepted at BAPs. Anyone care to comment?
Posts: 187 | From: I wish I knew | Registered: May 2001
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Jenn.
Shipmate
# 5239
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Posted
Thinking back to my bap I would guess at >50% of candidates being evangelical of one stripe or another. If that's typcal, then you are likely to get a higher proportion of evangelicals selected I'd guess.
Also I wonder if the mission/evangelism focus is easier to talk about for people with an evangelical background? (n.b. not saying they are better at doing it, just that they might be more used to talking about it!)
Posts: 2282 | From: England | Registered: Nov 2003
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
The greater proportion of evangelicals presenting for selection is a no brainer: evangelical parishes on the whole are larger, and have a greater proportion of younger people (mostly male, but some female) who are available to experience God's call on their lives.
Evangelical places: a) usually have a clearly defined sense of mission and b) talk about it, encourage and mentor people to engage in mission.
They also largely have a better attention to the spiritual life and a passion for faith which is pretty much lacking in all but the most fervent of Anglo-Catholic nosebleed high places.
Having said all that - and I realise it's an extremely broad generalisation - there is one other factor to consider. I think sometimes that God is only able to work in hearts that are open to faith... Where faith (and therefore hope and love) is present, there the Spirit is working. What I observe in my diocese, and in the mainline churches generally, is a pessimism about the future, a focus on buildings and maintenance, a focus on anguish and anxiety about "not having any young people/not enough money/not enough people to do things/not having or having to pay a priest etc. Where that spirit is at work, of course the Spirit's not going to raise people up to lead it: it's got enough leaders efficient in the ways of leading it into the ground.
If evangelical and extreme A-C places are keeping the hope alive (and love and faith), then may they know every blessing as God raises up people for ministry.
One thing I hold onto and try to remember is the conclusion I reached that God calls everyone for a reason, sometimes for a specific task. This means that even if I don't think X person should be ordained, God may still be calling them for a particular reason. There are no bars to God's call except those we put up ourselves. God will call out people for ordained (and other forms of) ministry if the people of God are faithful. And sometimes even when they are not.
[ 14. January 2012, 09:02: Message edited by: Nunc Dimittis ]
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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Masha
Shipmate
# 10098
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Posted
Nunc Dimittis, may I just take a moment to suggest that you might be wonderful? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Every time I read one of your posts I get something from it; often something to think about.
Thank you!
Also,
Thanks for the advice Arch Anglo Catholic - useful!
NP (can't remember how to spell it, sorry) good to know it's not just me.
[ 14. January 2012, 16:23: Message edited by: Masha ]
Posts: 308 | Registered: Aug 2005
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3rdFooter
Shipmate
# 9751
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Posted
Masha,
This is not a decision you have to rush to much or fix in your head. It is OK at BAP and even as you begin training to tick both boxes. I am not saying you should procrastinate, just let your ministry be formed over time. You will be surprised how things can change.
SSM/NSM is not the easy option. If you think this might be your path, you need to think how ministry and self support are going to work together. When I started training, I was in a job that involved a fair bit of long range travel, which would have been a real challenge. If you know any SSMs in simalar work to yourself, ask them at the workplace ministry that would go alongside your parish ministry.
Happy to PM if you want to ask questions.
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3F - Shunter in the sidings of God's Kingdom
Posts: 602 | From: outskirts of Babylon | Registered: Jul 2005
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Niminypiminy
Shipmate
# 15489
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Posted
ArchAngloCatholic and 3rdFooter thank you from me too for your advice (even though it was Masha who asked for it). Really helpful.
Thinking about the first part of NuncDimittis's wonderful post, I wonder if it is the case that the majority of older ordinands are evangelicals? Or is the youth-orientation of some evangelical (CofE) churches off-putting to those of, ahem, more mature years? (Maybe that's more of a purg topic, I don't know.)
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Lives of the Saints: songs by The Unequal Struggle
http://www.theunequalstruggle.com/
Posts: 776 | From: Edge of the Fens | Registered: Feb 2010
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Poppy
Ship's dancing cat
# 2000
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Posted
The question about being stipendary or not can be down to economics and practicality. A paid post usually means moving house and if that is not possible becuase of caring responsibilites - elderly parents, children at important stages in their education, spouse's work etc then SSM might be the only option. Alternatively you might have a career or job than enables you to have the flexibilty to combine SSM and paid work and your ministry can enrich both.
I always felt called to full time ministry and decided to train part time as that was one less school move for the children as we didn't have to up sticks to theological college and then move on again two years later.
It might be worth checking with your DDO when he/she expects you to have made these decisions. It was discussed very early in my discernment but I suspect that was partially about exploring whether I was serious about the call and not just a stay at home mum whose last child had gone to school and now fancied doing a bit for the church. I know that much of this discernment process is about being rather than doing but it doesn't hurt to give some serious prayer time to thinking about how would I feel if I did this full time, or juggling with a job, or caring and sit with the feelings that arise to discern where God might be calling you.
[ 15. January 2012, 07:15: Message edited by: Poppy ]
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At the still point of the turning world - there the dance is...
Posts: 1406 | From: mostly on the edge | Registered: Dec 2001
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Bagpuss
Magical saggy cloth cat
# 2925
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Posted
I am training with some people who have switched from SSM to stipendiary part way through training. This involved a couple of extra interviews on the vocation and leadership criteria.
Equally I know stipendaries who have gone SSM house for duty. I think that certainly in my diocese there is a lot more flexibility than there used to be.
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Panda
Shipmate
# 2951
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Posted
Interesting. Here there is no distinction made at selection; you are selected for training for ministry, and that's it. Our bishop has just said that if those who were intending to be NSM want to become stipendiary that's largely fine with him (I expect he'd want a brief chat about it) but the training is supposed to be equivalent.
Suits me - all being well I'll be ordained an NSM deacon in June, but I hope to move to part-time and then full-time as my kids get bigger.
Posts: 1637 | From: North Wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
Equally, one might argue that the role of NSM has had to change in view of the changes in the working environment. As I understand it, the function NSM was seen in the context of the large workplace, such as a motor manufacturer or a shipyard or a colliery, where there would be several hundred people (possibly thousands) employed. Such industries have largely evaporated these days - certainly they have in my part of the world - and the original role of the NSM with them. So, yes, one can see the current role of NSM as being one of getting a priest on the cheap, but that may not be entirely fair on our hierarchy, who are having to perform an increasingly difficult juggling act merely to keep churches open. Faced with the choice between installing an NSM priest-in-charge (house for duty) and seeing a church close for lack of funds, which do you think they are going to choose?
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
This is taken from the URC Manual page on Ministry
quote:
There are three models of non-stipendiary ministry
Model I - service in a congregation as part of a team. The pattern is taken from the former eldership of the Churches of Christ and is limited in scope and local in nature
Model II - pastoral charge of a small congregation, or service as part of a team of ministers caring for a group of churches.
Model III- ministers in secular employment. Service set apart to be a focus for mission in the place of work or leisure. It is related to a local church or District Council.
I think we were before Anglicans or Methodists in Non-Stipendiary Ministry. Therefore my comments on the models here are important. Model I is the oldest, it stems back to 1970s or earlier when we were in discussion with the Church of Christ. This was to cover their category of Elder, who were ordained local people in secular employment with responsibility for worship within the congregation. Their "ministers" were in fact "missioners" and you should only get one if the congregation was struggling. Quite small congregation could have three or four ministers, who would work as a team to provide worship, often with one leading the service of the Word and another the communion (which was weekly in Churches of Christ).
Now about that time Leslie Newbiggin returned to the UK and saw the ability to use this change to create something like the missioners/catechist of the Church of North India. These being basically type III people or the type Leo is talking about.
Type II have come about because of the large number of churches to the relatively small number of ministers (although there are actually fewer members per ministers, there are more churches per minister as church size has got smaller). Early retirement and such has meant that for a number of smaller churches we have been able to provide ministerial cover by a non-stipendiary route.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
Having been dipping my toe into and out of this process for a while now....certainly ten years ago any idea of moving between stipendiary and non stipendiary was frowned on.
But then again, so was moving from a Local Ordained Ministry post...out of the area and into a stipendiary post and on out into the big wide ocean of possibilities.
The scenery is changing ...and not all diocese are the same.
Which is sometimes confusing.
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
This is taken from the URC Manual page on Ministry
quote:
There are three models of non-stipendiary ministry
Model I - service in a congregation as part of a team. The pattern is taken from the former eldership of the Churches of Christ and is limited in scope and local in nature
Model II - pastoral charge of a small congregation, or service as part of a team of ministers caring for a group of churches.
Model III- ministers in secular employment. Service set apart to be a focus for mission in the place of work or leisure. It is related to a local church or District Council.
I think we were before Anglicans or Methodists in Non-Stipendiary Ministry. Therefore my comments on the models here are important. Model I is the oldest, it stems back to 1970s or earlier when we were in discussion with the Church of Christ. This was to cover their category of Elder, who were ordained local people in secular employment with responsibility for worship within the congregation. Their "ministers" were in fact "missioners" and you should only get one if the congregation was struggling. Quite small congregation could have three or four ministers, who would work as a team to provide worship, often with one leading the service of the Word and another the communion (which was weekly in Churches of Christ).
Now about that time Leslie Newbiggin returned to the UK and saw the ability to use this change to create something like the missioners/catechist of the Church of North India. These being basically type III people or the type Leo is talking about.
Type II have come about because of the large number of churches to the relatively small number of ministers (although there are actually fewer members per ministers, there are more churches per minister as church size has got smaller). Early retirement and such has meant that for a number of smaller churches we have been able to provide ministerial cover by a non-stipendiary route.
Jengie
Thank you. Not for the first time do I find myself being grateful for the many advances and insights from the URC.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Bagpuss
Magical saggy cloth cat
# 2925
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Panda:
Suits me - all being well I'll be ordained an NSM deacon in June, but I hope to move to part-time and then full-time as my kids get bigger.
Snap!
![[Smile]](smile.gif) Apart from the big kids bit - mine will be at university and mortgage paid off by the end of my curacy which will hopefully then open wider doors.
Posts: 473 | Registered: Jun 2002
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Laxton's Superba
Shipmate
# 228
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Posted
Bumping this up a bit...
How is everyone doing? I am waiting for parish priest to write my reference before I arrange to meet the sponsoring Bishop who will decide if I go to a BAP.
for all of us
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Laxton's Superba
Shipmate
# 228
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Posted
Thanks Jante.
Got a date to see the bishop, and a BAP date too. Eeek!
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Panda
Shipmate
# 2951
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Posted
Is this with the intention of starting training in September, if all goes well?
Posts: 1637 | From: North Wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Laxton's Superba
Shipmate
# 228
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Posted
yes Panda, part-time on a regional course is the intention. How are you getting on?
Posts: 187 | From: I wish I knew | Registered: May 2001
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
On the NSM/Stipendiary front, I know someone from this diocese who trained for NSM because he couldn't train full time* and started out as an NSM and then his apparently secure job went and an ideal stipendiary post came up and he became NSM.
My own vocational discernment has taken an interesting turn in that I'm starting work as a full time permanent verger next month. I think for the short term I'll be focussing on this role and seeing how it fits vocationally. It could be the right thing long term or it could be a stepping stone on the way, answering some of the concerns that have been raised about people skills/being too intellectual.
Carys
*Not sure how this sits with Panda's comment about Wales not making that decision at training, but maybe they've shifted since he started training. Or it may be that I don't know the full reasons for his decision which had a lot to do with finances and logistics I think.
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Panda
Shipmate
# 2951
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Posted
On my referral for a selection conference from the diocesan panel, it said I was a candidate for NSM, and the 'ministry envisioned for candidate was Assistant Priest, Team Member or Team Vicar. When I bridled slightly at this, my DDO said it was standard to put those three if you were starting out as NSM, and they were regarded as a starting-point (after a curacy) rather than as a restriction.
On my conference (in 09) there were no questions about whether I distinguished between NSM and stipendiary in terms of my calling. They were in interested in a call to the priesthood, only.
LS, the end is in sight! One more set of essays (4 x 3000), due in May, two sermons and a lot of forms on reflection to fill in. Question: when does reflection turn into navel-gazing?
[ 17. February 2012, 19:56: Message edited by: Panda ]
Posts: 1637 | From: North Wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Niminypiminy
Shipmate
# 15489
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Posted
I've been sent A Long Form to fill in ....eeeks. Having to put it all down in writing seems so scary. I know this means things are moving on a bit (good) but looking at it makes me get butterflies in my stomach.
Any tips for tackling The Form?
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Lives of the Saints: songs by The Unequal Struggle
http://www.theunequalstruggle.com/
Posts: 776 | From: Edge of the Fens | Registered: Feb 2010
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
On the NSM/Stipendiary front, I know someone from this diocese who trained for NSM because he couldn't train full time* and started out as an NSM and then his apparently secure job went and an ideal stipendiary post came up and he became NSM.
My own vocational discernment has taken an interesting turn in that I'm starting work as a full time permanent verger next month. I think for the short term I'll be focussing on this role and seeing how it fits vocationally. It could be the right thing long term or it could be a stepping stone on the way, answering some of the concerns that have been raised about people skills/being too intellectual.
Carys
*Not sure how this sits with Panda's comment about Wales not making that decision at training, but maybe they've shifted since he started training. Or it may be that I don't know the full reasons for his decision which had a lot to do with finances and logistics I think.
They want candidates who have people skills and aren't too intellectual? Oh well, that's Michael Ramsey out of the window, then....Still, what kind of loss is that, when you can instead fill up the ministry with lots of ever-so-nice people who didn't quite make it as primary school teachers ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) .
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Niminypiminy:
I've been sent A Long Form to fill in ....eeeks. Having to put it all down in writing seems so scary. I know this means things are moving on a bit (good) but looking at it makes me get butterflies in my stomach.
Any tips for tackling The Form?
I don't know if how like your long form is to the long form I had to do, but here's what I did.
The "basic data" stuff: With patience, and an appreciation that the Church takes orders seriously.
The reflective questions: Prayerfully and slowly. I had to unlearn the habit I'd been taught in school of selling myself on applications. I wasn't selling myself, but participating in the discernment process. For a lot of the questions, it was the first time I'd really tried to articulate answers to them, so the process was quite formative.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Jenn.
Shipmate
# 5239
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Posted
I had a first go at the form then emailed it to my husband and my vicar. It really helped to have someone else to read it over and tell me where it "didn't sound like me" - where I had missed things or fallen into the trap of saying what I thought they might want to hear. That was a really helpful process. If there is someone you trust who would be willing to do that, I'd recommend using them!
Posts: 2282 | From: England | Registered: Nov 2003
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Laxton's Superba
Shipmate
# 228
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Posted
I'm a bit of a saddo in that I like the tedious bits of form-filling the best..... with the more thoguht-provoking stuff I sat down and did a brain dump of my initial reponse to the question, then went back to it a few days later and was pleasantly surprised at how cogent it seemed. Talking to my DDO I was assured that it isn't meant to be like an UCCA form where you are selling yourself but more of a reflective process. In fact, the whole of the journey from initial contact with DDO to going to a BAP is a really important discernment process and you shouldn't feel that you have all the answers at the initial stage. Filling in the forms can help you clarify how you feel about things and often will be very useful in showing you your path so far.
Posts: 187 | From: I wish I knew | Registered: May 2001
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Aravis
Shipmate
# 13824
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Posted
I don't think selection boards have a problem with candidates being intellectual, but they have understandable concerns if they can't uncover strong evidence of other qualities at interview.
I used to know a priest who considered herself intellectual, but her ability to relate to people (either individually or in the context of a sermon) was so limited that her intellectual skills were of no use whatsoever to the church. (I hasten to add that I can't see that being true of anyone posting on this thread - but I can see why it worries selectors.)
Posts: 689 | From: S Wales | Registered: Jun 2008
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Panda
Shipmate
# 2951
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
They want candidates who have people skills and aren't too intellectual? Oh well, that's Michael Ramsey out of the window, then....Still, what kind of loss is that, when you can instead fill up the ministry with lots of ever-so-nice people who didn't quite make it as primary school teachers .
Sorry, not quite sure what you mean there. I've never had any aspirations to be a primary school teacher. Am I too thick or too clever?
Posts: 1637 | From: North Wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
I don't think the 'too intellectual' thing need be a problem either. The two youngest Anglican candidates in my college class (23 years old) were both Uni post-grads; one in astro-physics, the other in biochemistry. An older ordinand was a history PhD.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
off to see the ddoish person
always loathed jumping into swimming pools and this feels much the same
[ 25. February 2012, 20:30: Message edited by: Ethne Alba ]
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Laxton's Superba
Shipmate
# 228
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Posted
Good luck Ethne Alba
I'm seeing the sponsoring bishop on Weds....
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Niminypiminy
Shipmate
# 15489
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Posted
Good luck Ethne Alba and Laxton's Superba (what a nice rhyme and metre your names have together)
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Lives of the Saints: songs by The Unequal Struggle
http://www.theunequalstruggle.com/
Posts: 776 | From: Edge of the Fens | Registered: Feb 2010
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aig
Shipmate
# 429
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Posted
Has anyone experience of doing an exchange with another theological college? I am considering going on a term's exchange to Yale and would be interested in hearing people's thoughts and experiences of exchanges.
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That's not how we do it here.......
Posts: 464 | From: the middle bit at the bottom slightly to the right | Registered: Jun 2001
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Laxton's Superba
Shipmate
# 228
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Posted
Good to go, from the Bishop.
Eek.
BAP-ing in June at Ely (probably).
Yikes!!!!
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Poppy
Ship's dancing cat
# 2000
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Posted
Excellent news!
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At the still point of the turning world - there the dance is...
Posts: 1406 | From: mostly on the edge | Registered: Dec 2001
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ST
Shipmate
# 14600
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aig:
Has anyone experience of doing an exchange with another theological college? I am considering going on a term's exchange to Yale and would be interested in hearing people's thoughts and experiences of exchanges.
I had a spell on exchange at the College of the Transfiguration in South Africa and feel I received more formation there in a different environment and context than the rest of the time in the UK. Go for it!
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Formerly nowsouthwest - but moved!
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aig
Shipmate
# 429
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Posted
Thanks Nousouthwest, I probably will go for it!
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That's not how we do it here.......
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Laxton's Superba
Shipmate
# 228
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Posted
Doing BAP forms...... how much paperwork!
It's not easy thinking of people to act as referees. Such a lot of personal information required.
Thinking about the written reflection and presentation too - does anyone have any tips? I've got a vague idea of what I'm going to talk about and I've decided to go for something that I know is slightly out of my comfort zone. Would be grateful for anyone's experiences of BAP presentations.
Posts: 187 | From: I wish I knew | Registered: May 2001
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Poppy
Ship's dancing cat
# 2000
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Posted
Bear in mind that the presentation is done when you are fairly stressed and it needs to show that you can do basic presentations and then lead a group discussion afterwards. If you go with something outside your comfort zone will it be outside everyone else's and will they find it hard to discuss it afterwards?
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At the still point of the turning world - there the dance is...
Posts: 1406 | From: mostly on the edge | Registered: Dec 2001
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Bagpuss
Magical saggy cloth cat
# 2925
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Posted
Write your questions down for the post presentation discussion and have an idea of where you want to go with it in the round up.
I did mine on a mixture of prayer and vocation - was highlighting extra things to show I met the vocation criteria as that's the crucial one.
Posts: 473 | Registered: Jun 2002
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Laxton's Superba
Shipmate
# 228
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Posted
Thanks Poppy and Bagpuss
My outside-the-comfort-zone thing is mission and evangelism, so it's not too outrageous, but I thought it would be a good way to work through how I feel about a) the difference bewtween the 2 and b) if there should be a difference, IYSWIM. I know it's something my bishop reckons is a deal-breaker for BAPs. Having an idea of where the discussion should go is a great idea, otherwise it has the potential to end in a soggy heap. Lots to think about. Thanks again.
Posts: 187 | From: I wish I knew | Registered: May 2001
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