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» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » All Saints   » A Truth Universally Acknowledged... (Page 4)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: A Truth Universally Acknowledged...
Mad Cat
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# 9104

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I like that solo dance image Lucia. Maybe next time I'm asked I'll just say: "I'm a soloist."

When you're a soloist, you can use the space around you differently. And balance needs to be centred differently.

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Weird and sweary.

Posts: 1842 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
My point is that some have celibacy thrust upon them by the views of others. if it limits them, then it isn't a genuine call for them.

Exactly. LIke, for a start, any divorced person who is a sincere Roman Catholic. There must be millions of them. And many more have celibacy thrust upon them by circumstance. Or rather singleness, not celibacy, because celibacy is surely only celibacy if chosen, or at any rate if accepted. When merely endured it probably doens;t count as celibacy. And certainly not if somoen is desperately hoping for their situation to change.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Pomona
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# 17175

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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
I like that solo dance image Lucia. Maybe next time I'm asked I'll just say: "I'm a soloist."

When you're a soloist, you can use the space around you differently. And balance needs to be centred differently.

Me too - throughout my life I have always been a soloist at heart, in general. I suppose I just wonder if those in paired dances are having more fun, but then that can be put in with me wishing I had an inside leg measurement of more than 27" [Biased]

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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daisydaisy
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# 12167

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
My point is that some have celibacy thrust upon them by the views of others. if it limits them, then it isn't a genuine call for them.

Exactly. LIke, for a start, any divorced person who is a sincere Roman Catholic. There must be millions of them. And many more have celibacy thrust upon them by circumstance. Or rather singleness, not celibacy, because celibacy is surely only celibacy if chosen, or at any rate if accepted. When merely endured it probably doens;t count as celibacy. And certainly not if somoen is desperately hoping for their situation to change.
That's an interesting point - and maybe celibacy is only for those called to it, while abstinence is for those who aren't.
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Penny S
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I like the dancing analogue - and think of something like jive, where both partners are using balancing forces in a creative way. And while one can do things to other sorts of dance music alone (if looking odd), that sort of dance just cannot happen solo. So if one partner suddenly feels called to go off and sit out for ever, thus imposing abstinence on the other, it's a bit discombobulating.
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Ariston
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I've heard "solos" used for single people before; to my ears, it sounds like a twee little euphemism used to make yourself sound hip, with it, and not single. Call it identity politics for the less oppressed.

Not to say it doesn't suck to get asked by your parents and family when you go home for the holidays (like, say, in a week) if you've met someone new. And Christmas just sucks—the implicit message that, if you're not with someone, you're a lesser person . . .

Okay, I realize that at least a third of the reason I'm looking for Miss Right for Now is the social aspect—the respectability, the fact that I won't have to answer uncomfortable hints from the relatives, being able to have the "right" status on the Book of Faces, being able to look the ex in the eye when she gets married, not feeling utterly hopeless next to all the newly married couples, having someone to shop for come Christmas—and that I shouldn't care about that. But I do, and so do all the people around me.

Can one of you do me a favor and either change society, or make me stop caring about such petty things? Thx.

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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
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quote:
Ariston: I've heard "solos" used for single people before; to my ears, it sounds like a twee little euphemism used to make yourself sound hip, with it, and not single.
Ít's kind of funny: the Dutch word for 'single' is vrijgezel. In the last decade, the Dutch media introduced a twee little euphemism used to make yourself sound hip, with it, and not vrijgezel. This word they introduced is 'single' [Biased]

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Lucia

Looking for light
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I think that if you are not happy with your unattached state there isn't really going to be any word to describe yourself that you will like and find affirming. Because fundamentally you don't like the concept that it is describing whatever you call it. But some words may still be preferable to others and since people tend to want to identify each other with some kind of category in life probably better to choose and promote your own preferred description of your status than allow others to impose one on you.

So if you have to self-identify call yourself, unpartnered, solo, single, free, unattached, eligible bachelor, independent traveler through life, still looking, or whatever feels most appropriate. But make it your choice.

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daisydaisy
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# 12167

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A while ago here in the Uk there was a tv prog (can't remember the title) where someone with Indian roots took a different unattached woman each week and applied some of the matchmaking approach used in India. I say "some" because she didn't use the astrological and personality tests that my Indian colleagues have had when their marriage were being arranged.

Part of this approach was that she asked the mother to identify which of her friends had a son who might be the right sort of age. Then she got the matchee to ask her friends to do the same with their friends. The idea behind this is that friends and friends of friends are likely to have contacts with similar interests and values, and so result in a more successful match.

This approach puts a level of responsibility onto the people around to help increase the network of unattached people. Unfortunately I'm not sure everyone is so altruistic or would see the point of it - when I suggested doing this in my own network of singles the only response that I got was "well who have you got for me?" (I do have a track record on introducing people who eventually got married) with a total reluctance to look at possibilities for others.
But it would be interesting to see it being adopted in a western society context.

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infinite_monkey
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# 11333

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I genuinely shudder to think at what my mother would come up with in terms of possible partners, but I do think there's something to be said for matchmaking among one's "family of choice", as it were--friends have a level of insight about us, and, one hopes, a strong interest in our happiness.

It's not commonly done in my social network, though--pity.

[ 17. November 2012, 01:48: Message edited by: infinite_monkey ]

--------------------
His light was lifted just above the Law,
And now we have to live with what we did with what we saw.

--Dar Williams, And a God Descended
Obligatory Blog Flog: www.otherteacher.wordpress.com

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Jonah the Whale

Ship's pet cetacean
# 1244

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Ariston: I've heard "solos" used for single people before; to my ears, it sounds like a twee little euphemism used to make yourself sound hip, with it, and not single.
Ít's kind of funny: the Dutch word for 'single' is vrijgezel. In the last decade, the Dutch media introduced a twee little euphemism used to make yourself sound hip, with it, and not vrijgezel. This word they introduced is 'single' [Biased]
Hah! This is very true. "Single" sounds very hip to my ears. I've been listening to too much Dutch. What's in a word, eh?
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duchess

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# 2764

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quote:
Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
Hah! This is very true. "Single" sounds very hip to my ears. I've been listening to too much Dutch. What's in a word, eh?

One can not listen to "too much Dutch". It simply isn't possible. [Biased]

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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
the Dutch word for 'single' is vrijgezel. In the last decade, the Dutch media introduced a twee little euphemism used to make yourself sound hip, with it, and not vrijgezel. This word they introduced is 'single' [Biased]

To me that just makes me think vajazzle ...

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
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quote:
Doublethink: To me that just makes me think vajazzle ...
Another word I had to look up. I'm learning more and more on the Ship [Hot and Hormonal]

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Freelance Monotheist
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A combination of things has made me realise I'm probably never going to have a romantic relationship/settle down & procreate. Firstly, my biological clock, that was ticking deafeningly loudly has just stopped completely (or, if it's still active, has become inaudible), but it was probably worn out as it's been at it for 2/3 of my life! Secondly, I can only see the disadvantages to being in a partnership (compromising my leisure time, of which I have precious little, for example) and I've never known anything but singleness, so I've become accustomed to it. I compare it to being an only child vs having siblings-if you don't know any different, then that's what's normal for you. Thirdly, it's taken me most of my life to like myself, and that was an uphill struggle, so goodness knows how long it would take me to get used to having a non-platonic, non-family relationship with someone!
Also, working in childcare has made me see just how dreadful children can be and it's made me want to have my tubes tied on several occasions. Then, when they're well-behaved, I get to love them and be a mother-figure to them for a bit, which is lovely, on a short-term basis. My 3 siblings are all paired off, so at some point in the fairly distant future I'll probably get to be cool Auntie FM who gives the cool gifts and takes them to interesting places and does arty stuff with them. My youngest sibling has said if she procreates, she'll take me on to look after her offspring, which is lovely!
Oh, and I love the tattoo analogy back on page 1 too, it's so apt!

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Denial: a very effective coping mechanism

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infinite_monkey
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# 11333

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I've come to two realizations about a longterm relationship for me:

1) I really, really would like to try my hand at one again.
2) It is seriously gonna be difficult.

There's hope in that, but also...well, there will always be the timeless allure of thousands of cats.

--------------------
His light was lifted just above the Law,
And now we have to live with what we did with what we saw.

--Dar Williams, And a God Descended
Obligatory Blog Flog: www.otherteacher.wordpress.com

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Nenya
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# 16427

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quote:
Originally posted by infinite_monkey:
there will always be the timeless allure of thousands of cats.

One of the advantages of the single state. Mr Nen doesn't like cats. [Frown]

Nen - frustrated feline admirer.

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They told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn.

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Mad Cat
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quote:
Originally posted by infinite_monkey:
I've come to two realizations about a longterm relationship for me:

1) I really, really would like to try my hand at one again.
2) It is seriously gonna be difficult.

There's hope in that, but also...well, there will always be the timeless allure of thousands of cats.

I'm with you there.

I'm mesmerised by the thought of a thousand cats.... one of my fears is to be one of the invisible old ladies, but somehow I don't think that will happen. I'll be wearing purple and drinking them all under the table.

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Weird and sweary.

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Adrienne
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# 2334

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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
I'll be wearing purple and drinking them all under the table.

I'll be wearing magenta and matching you glass for glass

A

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daisydaisy
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# 12167

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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:

I'm mesmerised by the thought of a thousand cats.... one of my fears is to be one of the invisible old ladies, but somehow I don't think that will happen. I'll be wearing purple and drinking them all under the table.

The key, I think, to avoid being one of the invisible old ladies, is your choice of red hat... and keeping it from the Moggies.
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ArachnidinElmet
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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
I'm mesmerised by the thought of a thousand cats.... one of my fears is to be one of the invisible old ladies.

I made a bargain with a friend years ago: if we were single when we reached our mid 70s we'd move in together and spend all our time calling young handymen to come fix our plumbing. [Eek!]
She's got a boyfriend since then , but he's an easy-going guy; he won't mind. [Smile]

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'If a pleasant, straight-forward life is not possible then one must try to wriggle through by subtle manoeuvres' - Kafka

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Belle Ringer
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# 13379

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quote:
Originally posted by daisydaisy:
she asked the mother to identify which of her friends had a son who might be the right sort of age. Then she got the matchee to ask her friends to do the same with their friends.

... when I suggested doing this in my own network of singles the only response that I got was "well who have you got for me?"

My parents met at a small party created for the purpose of introducing them to each other. I'm under the impression that sort of "arranging for two people to meet" was common back then. But parents may have had more motivation -- in the 20s and 30s, a woman usually lived at home until she married.

Weddings used to be a good place to meet other single people, but the last couple of weddings when I teased the groom (a friend) about the lack of single people, he said he doesn't know any single people. Marrieds commonly abandon their single friends the day they marry, but now they effectively marry a few years before the official wedding and have long since left behind any singles they once knew.

More intriguing, when I ask people "How many friends do you have, real friends, people you can be honest with and when things go badly wrong you can count on each other to help" the answer is usually "one," rarely "two." Maybe we aren't introducing people to each other because we don't know people to introduce? Or maybe we're afraid if we introduce good friend Julie to Sam, and they hit it off, we'll lose Julie as a friend because she and Sam will abandon their single friends, and the "one real friend" will become "none"?

What really interests me, when I say "lets all get together and bring our one good friend and we'll all get to make more friends" the answer is "no."

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malik3000
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# 11437

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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Marrieds commonly abandon their single friends the day they marry, but now they effectively marry a few years before the official wedding and have long since left behind any singles they once knew.

More intriguing, when I ask people "How many friends do you have, real friends, people you can be honest with and when things go badly wrong you can count on each other to help" the answer is usually "one," rarely "two." Maybe we aren't introducing people to each other because we don't know people to introduce? Or maybe we're afraid if we introduce good friend Julie to Sam, and they hit it off, we'll lose Julie as a friend because she and Sam will abandon their single friends, and the "one real friend" will become "none"?

What really interests me, when I say "lets all get together and bring our one good friend and we'll all get to make more friends" the answer is "no."

As someone who is single, and has been so -- except for a few months when i was engaged to someone way back when i was in my late 20s -- i certainly feel like the above is the case. I am single, i never felt that i had a calling to the celibate life, and i truly treasure my low in quqntity but high in quality friendships. I live alone but i don't feel lonely because of being blessed with a small wonderful, mostly non-genetic, family.

Yet there have been good friends in a committed relationship over time who have seemed to drift away. Of course -- now they have different priorities. Sometimes it has made me feel if my immaturity has been at play for not being in a permanent committed relationship. Occasionally it has crossed my mind that sharing a household with someone might be nice, at other times i feel it may be a good thing. I never was able to get into the whole dating thing. The whole "hunting for a mate" thing is so not me. Probably Asperger's Syndrome has had something to do with it.

If i was to be in a relationship with someone i'd really want to be attracted to them and for them to be attracted to me in the same way. That has never happened. No one i have ever been attracted to has been similarly attracted to me -- in each case they would always be made clear to me that "I like you as a friend".

In the case of my one engagement back in my late 20s, it was she who was in love with me, and whom i liked very much as a friend, but was not in love with. But i thought at the time it was past time for me to be in a relationship and i did like her very much as a friend, so why not? The result of building this relationship on such a dubious foundation was that it of course failed, plus I lost her as a friend.

So at this point in my life i find myself wondering if it can be ascribed to my failure to grow up, and if i should be open to a relationship, and if so, how. On the other hand overall i am happy in so many ways, and still do have a few wonderful friends, mostly unattached as i.

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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.

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Mad Cat
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quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
<snip>
So at this point in my life i find myself wondering if it can be ascribed to my failure to grow up, and if i should be open to a relationship, and if so, how. On the other hand overall i am happy in so many ways, and still do have a few wonderful friends, mostly unattached as i.

You sound like you've built a lovely life for yourself Malik, one that a partner would be lucky to share.

I know what you mean about feeling that you haven't grown up. I've had the impression from some coupled or married people that my state, unencumbered as it is by children or partner, indicates a lack of maturity or seriousness. It makes me furious. When I think of what I've faced and dealt with without the support of a partner..... and faced it down and got on with making my life..... f***ing come over here and call me immature [Mad]

Having said that, I still know how to play, and as a soloist, I have the chance to. I think the duets envy this and call it immature. I don't see it as immature. I see it as contributing to various social and cultural ..... 'things'.

And if my consolation for not having a family at home is being able to choose not to go straight home after a concert, and anyone begrudges me that, they can f*** right off.

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Weird and sweary.

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Drifting Star

Drifting against the wind
# 12799

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As a married couple without children, and with a lifestyle that isn't designed to just maximise income, we often get this reaction - and as you suggest, it is usually based on jealousy.

There is no question that married people with children do not in any way make up the happiest group of people.

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The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus

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Mad Cat
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# 9104

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quote:
Originally posted by Drifting Star:
There is no question that married people with children do not in any way make up the happiest group of people.

I think I often imagine that I'd be happier if I was married with children. Certainly, that's the path I hoped I might take. It's good to be reminded that happiness doesn't come from either being partnered or single. I guess happiness comes from trying every day to love God and do His will, and love other people and love yourself.

Thanks Drifting Star
[Smile]

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Weird and sweary.

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daisydaisy
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# 12167

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I have girly nights out with two special friends who are each married with children, and I am always reminded of how that isn't necessarily the best state to be in, and they usually remark wistfully on what I am able to do as a solo.
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Scots lass
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# 2699

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I have at least one friend who seems to think that all life's problems would be solved if she were to get married, and seems resentful that she isn't. It's difficult to remember that what it will do is change the context, not fix everything.

On a more "back to me" note, having spent a lot of last week feeling pretty miserable about myself, I think I might have unintentionally been on a date on Monday. A friend and I both happened to have the day off and he suggested we do something, so off we went to Greenwich for the day (recommended trip, btw). The very date like part was that he paid for everything and it had a bit of a "getting to know you more" vibe about it. I'm not at all sure that I want this relationship to go beyond friendship, so am going to have consider carefully, but it certainly made me feel much better about myself!

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Belle Ringer
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# 13379

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quote:
Originally posted by daisydaisy:
I have girly nights out with two special friends who are each married with children, and I am always reminded of how that isn't necessarily the best state to be in, and they usually remark wistfully on what I am able to do as a solo.

Marriage with or without kids has it problems. So does aloneness.

Most of what marrieds think I can do solo they do too, and with someone to share the planning, the cost, and the pleasure of the activity. A lot of the "you are so lucky you are single" is them comparing a life of adult responsibilities with their memories of life as a carefree young adult, and thinking the young adult life is the single adult life. It's not.

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daisydaisy
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# 12167

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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by daisydaisy:
I have girly nights out with two special friends who are each married with children, and I am always reminded of how that isn't necessarily the best state to be in, and they usually remark wistfully on what I am able to do as a solo.

Marriage with or without kids has it problems. So does aloneness.

Most of what marrieds think I can do solo they do too, and with someone to share the planning, the cost, and the pleasure of the activity. A lot of the "you are so lucky you are single" is them comparing a life of adult responsibilities with their memories of life as a carefree young adult, and thinking the young adult life is the single adult life. It's not.

I can't say I don't wish that I have someone to share the planning etc or that I don't miss out on things that are best done as a twosome, but, for example, I am able to go where I'd like to go, when and how. In the ideal marriage this would be fine, and that is wonderful, but not everyone in a marriage has that. If a major decision needs to be made, I'd love to have someone to share that responsibility with, and in an ideal marriage that would happen, and that is great. But not every couple has that experience. I'd love to have someone to spend Christmas with, but can't imagine what it might be like to keep so many people happy in their expectations of the season. In the ideal family this would all go smoothly and I have great respect for them, but not every family manages to do this. And so it goes on. And on.

It's not nostalgia for their young adult life that makes them wistful - these friends know that I don't always find being on my own easy and that it comes with responsibilities, just as I know they don't always find being married and parents is easy. When they tell me of what they have been doing as couples/families and I share what I've been doing as a solo I think there is a balance - some things you can't do so well as a solo, other things you can better do as a solo. But I have to admit to needing to be in the right place to be able to see it that way and see myself as solo rather than alone.

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Sola gratia
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[delurking]
Hello all, hope there's room for one more confused Christian single (TM)?

I am currently getting my head round a vaguely similar situation to Scots Lass's maybe-date and would welcome advice, if I may be so bold.
I moved in with an acquaintance for a few months this year as one of her housemates had to quit the contract early and they needed someone to fill in. I was new to the city and in need of similarly-aged friends, so thought this was a good opportunity to meet people. I got to know her much better, obviously, and came to know and get on brilliantly with her best friend and housemate. When we moved out this summer at the end of the tenancy, the acquaintance moved away but me and her best friend kept in touch as we were both still working in the same city. In fact, he texted the very day after I moved out to arrange to meet for lunch.

I didn’t think much of this until a month or so later when it occurred to me we had been seeing each other, often just the two of us but sometimes with friends, around once a week for two months, including at weekends. Even now, four months later, we exchange some joke or other via text or social networks. His best friend/my acquaintance did mention the amount of online banter between us when I saw her recently, but I just thought we were just messing about and enjoying finding someone with a similar sense of humour.

I have never heard him express an interest in anyone( of either gender) romantically, let alone sexually, although I have seen him say he was in love once (I suspect with the best friend). Partly because of this I had been, subconsciously perhaps, and rightly or wrongly, working on the assumption he might well be gay. He has some traits which one would call camp, and is definitely not interested in stereotypically ‘manly’ things (sports, war, etc.), preferring books and baking and the company of many female friends, but I don’t believe that necessarily signifies gayness.

He is lovely and kind and very, very funny, and though I hadn’t thought about it at all while we were housemates, I think I probably would be interested in seeing him in a more serious capacity were he also interested. But I am hopeless at reading signals and I’m not sure if his interest is anything more than occasional companionship. Help!

Some people (OK, mainly GLE friends) clearly hold the expectation that if the man in the equation (yep, assumption of heterosexuality klaxon) must be the one to initiate negotiations, as it were, and declare their interest, thus if he's not made it obvious, forget it. As both a feminist and (perhaps more importantly) a pragmatist (they haven't met this lad! He’s as unassertive as they come) feel is probably rather unrealistic "in this day and age". Though for me, who naturally keeps her feelings closer than most, it would be handy.

[/delurking]

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Sola gratia
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On a less me-centric note, I was wondering if anyone else has noticed (amongst Christians, YMMV, of course) this tendency for date avoidance amongst people these days?

I wonder if it is because my generation (I am mid-twenties) are scared to even go on Dates/Ask People Out as that seems big and scary and official, so we just sort of dance around having very ambiguous non-committal friend-dates. By which I mean we oh-so-casually start seeing each other a lot socially but never venturing to admit that the thought of romantic interest in one another might have even crossed our minds...and end up dancing round the subject indefinitely. I feel this happens quite a bit among my friends, a sort of pre-dating almost. I wonder if we feel so embarrassed about admitting interest in each other and the usual raised eyebrows of the Nudge-nudge brigade in church should we be any less circumspect.

Does that strike a chord with anyone?

A [Votive] for all my single siblings (and those who wish they were?). Stay strong.

SG

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The Intrepid Mrs S
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I have no dog in this particular fight - being married for 38 years now - but I just wanted to say that people do not necessarily find their soulmates when or where they expect to. My best friend at school - who I am sure had completely given up on the idea of Romance/Love/Marriage met and married someone in her/their forties, and is to all appearances blissfully happy. [Smile] A young friend, painfully shy in his teens, recently married a lady he met over the internet. [Smile] The Intrepid Miss S is marrying a childhood friend next year [Yipee] - they had known each other about 18 years, and had at least two goes at being a couple, before they both reached a level of maturity where they were able to make that commitment.

I know none of this is directly helpful - I'm just saying it's never too late (although of course for females it can very easily be too late for children). So don't despair, and don't rule out places like this even!

The Matchmaking Mrs. S [Big Grin]

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Sola gratia:
On a less me-centric note, I was wondering if anyone else has noticed (amongst Christians, YMMV, of course) this tendency for date avoidance amongst people these days?

Dunno about "these days" because I'm not in the loop really, but the cultural norm round where I live, going back to the 1970s & 80s, was that "dates" (not a word we'd have been likely to use) were something that you did with whoever you were in a sexual relationship with. They were not the way the relationship started. People got to know each other in group situations, not one-to-one "dates".

As for Christians behaving differently from others, I have no idea. If any courtship goes on in our church its probably in a language I don't speak.

[ 23. November 2012, 15:28: Message edited by: ken ]

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Ken

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ArachnidinElmet
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
...People got to know each other in group situations, not one-to-one "dates".

As for Christians behaving differently from others, I have no idea. If any courtship goes on in our church its probably in a language I don't speak.

That there is my, well I hesitate to say problem. I don't date, I meet men in group situations. That is my preference, but as a consequence I have a number of male friends (I'm not complaining btw, I'm blessed in my friends), but no partner.

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LeRoc

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quote:
Sola gratia: By which I mean we oh-so-casually start seeing each other a lot socially but never venturing to admit that the thought of romantic interest in one another might have even crossed our minds...and end up dancing round the subject indefinitely.
But... this dance could be fun too!

I mean, giving small hints, teasing eachother, circling around eachother like boxers... isn't this part of the fun?

I'm sorry, but when I'm reading some of the posts on this thread, sometimes it makes me want to shout: don't over-think it too much. Have fun! Nobody will want to do this dance with you if you don't have fun doing it.

Maybe this guy is gay. So what? You'll find out soon enough. And if you do, you can always laugh it off with him saying: "Why are all the good men gay?" I haven't met one gay guy who wouldn't appreciate receiving this line from a woman.

(I'm sorry if this isn't very All Saintish, but this is how I feel.)

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Surfing Madness
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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:


I'm sorry, but when I'm reading some of the posts on this thread, sometimes it makes me want to shout: don't over-think it too much. Have fun! Nobody will want to do this dance with you if you don't have fun doing it.


I know what you mean. In my case it's just the lack of single blokes that I know. That said the idea of it becoming serious quickly is not on my radar. So I guess i'm just saying I agree with you, don't over think it all to much.

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I now blog about all my crafting! http://inspiredbybroadway.blogspot.co.uk

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I mean, giving small hints, teasing eachother, circling around eachother like boxers... isn't this part of the fun?

No. Its horrible and scary and unsettling and stressful and puts you under a lot of pressure!

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L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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duchess

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Sola gratia - I once thought a vendor that acted very campy over the phone was totally gay. He kept singing that "Let me be your Hero" song over the phone yo me. He got insulted when I laughed. He stopped talking to me after letting me know he was "seriously" singing that to me. I confronted his gayness factor... nope he was not gay. I enjoyed his friendship and might have been interested had he lived close by and shared my faith.

My point is that you don't know until he tells you. Try to bring up the subject - ask him. I like people being comfortable around me as friends and I might inquirer of a
male friend this very thing just to be a good sage friend plus I am damn host.

Anytime somebody spends a considerable amount of time with you it is likely there are some feelings there.

[Edited. Out one misspelled word.. there may be more..typing this on a kindle fire. ]

[ 24. November 2012, 02:45: Message edited by: duchess ]

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duchess

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Damn nosy

Not host arghhh

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Sola gratia:
On a less me-centric note, I was wondering if anyone else has noticed (amongst Christians, YMMV, of course) this tendency for date avoidance amongst people these days?

I wonder if it is because my generation (I am mid-twenties) are scared to even go on Dates/Ask People Out as that seems big and scary and official, so we just sort of dance around having very ambiguous non-committal friend-dates. By which I mean we oh-so-casually start seeing each other a lot socially but never venturing to admit that the thought of romantic interest in one another might have even crossed our minds...and end up dancing round the subject indefinitely. I feel this happens quite a bit among my friends, a sort of pre-dating almost. I wonder if we feel so embarrassed about admitting interest in each other and the usual raised eyebrows of the Nudge-nudge brigade in church should we be any less circumspect.

Does that strike a chord with anyone?

A [Votive] for all my single siblings (and those who wish they were?). Stay strong.

SG

I have this (I am also mid-twenties) but put it down to anxiety...

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Nenya
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quote:
Originally posted by Sola gratia:

He is lovely and kind and very, very funny, and though I hadn’t thought about it at all while we were housemates, I think I probably would be interested in seeing him in a more serious capacity were he also interested. But I am hopeless at reading signals and I’m not sure if his interest is anything more than occasional companionship. Help!

I'd try and pick a fairly light moment when there's time to talk more if you need to and say something like, "Can I ask you something? I'm hopeless at reading signals and I'm just a bit unsure of expectations in our relationship. I really like you and our times together but I don't know if you're wanting anything more than companionship?"

Nen - longterm married but enjoying this thread. [Smile]

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quetzalcoatl
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Depends also if you go in for hugs, as I think they often reveal something. I guess not always though; you might have a friendly hug, and not really know if there is anything more or not. My memory is that if I was interested in a woman, the hug was different! But I agree that if people are timid or shy, this can be hidden.

As others have said, mention it directly. Why not? OK, it's embarrassing, but there are worse things than embarrassment.

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infinite_monkey
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I reckon you'll get to a point where you know it's time to bring it up. And, if you're anything like me, you'll wait a few more times before you do.

And that's okay--however you play it out, it's okay.

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Scots lass
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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
But... this dance could be fun too!

I mean, giving small hints, teasing eachother, circling around eachother like boxers... isn't this part of the fun?

I'm sorry, but when I'm reading some of the posts on this thread, sometimes it makes me want to shout: don't over-think it too much. Have fun! Nobody will want to do this dance with you if you don't have fun doing it.

Part of my post above was certainly meant to be thinking about the fun - it's fun to discuss "is there more to this?" with friends. And I wanted to be a bit more cheerful than the crying mess I was in my immediately previous post. Perhaps I'm over-thinking but, on the positive side, I don't over-think so much when I'm actually in the vicinity of the person I'm interested in.
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Doublethink.
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If it is causing you this level of distress and disturbance, I would seriously suggest considering some form of therapy. It maybe that you have had some experiences with relationships that have left you with profound anxieties that you may need help to overcome.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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infinite_monkey
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Does anyone go into relationships without anxieties, though? I've been reflecting a lot about this as I dip little toe back into shark-infested dating waters.

I know that I have a higher level of wariness than most, and I know where it came from (mentally ill father, followed by first major relationship with, whoops, mentally ill man), and I know, for the most part, what to do about it (including therapy, which I'm in and have gained much from). What I honestly don't know is what a normal amount of anxiety and wariness would be--I mean, do folks without my baggage honestly look at connecting with another person in this way and think wholly positive, cheerful, innocuous thoughts? That can't be right. Do they get a little nervous, but know that they can handle it? That seems more plausible.

I dunno. Honestly, I spent so much of my last foray into this so wrapped up in the need to bend myself around another person's fears and issues that I sort of forgot that, oh shiiiit, there are also fears and anxieties and issues on my end.

How do other folks navigate it?

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LeRoc

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quote:
Nenya: I'd try and pick a fairly light moment when there's time to talk more if you need to and say something like, "Can I ask you something? I'm hopeless at reading signals and I'm just a bit unsure of expectations in our relationship. I really like you and our times together but I don't know if you're wanting anything more than companionship?"
Do you mind if I try an alternative take on this?

If I were Sola gratia, what I'd do is something like this. I'd try to get into a relaxed conversation with my friend (like the ones you're already having). During this conversation, I'd try to steer it gently into a little more personal territory. Then when the mood is right, I would ask with a slightly mischievous smile: "So, what kind of women do you fall for?"

(Of course, there's always a possibility that at this point he will answer "Well, actually I fall for men." If this happens, you just give him the "Why are all the good guys gay?" line, and then you laugh it off together. No harm done.)

Now, if he isn't gay and if he has more than two braincells (you wouldn't be interested in him anyway if he hasn't), he'll answer your question, and then he'll give the same question back to you ("And what about you, Sola gratia?"). Answer this question seriously, without giving too obvious hints.

Now, after you've given your answer, you stay silent. You look half-down with a slightly embarrased smile, like you want to say something to him, but you really don't dare.

The important thing is, not to break this silence, even if it becomes awkward. In fact, you want it to become a bit awkward. Do what you have to (count inwardly if needed) but don't break the silence. He must be the one who breaks the silence.

If he doesn't get the hint after that, he really isn't worth your while [Biased]

quote:
infinite_monkey: Does anyone go into relationships without anxieties, though? (...) How do other folks navigate it?
I don't know how to get rid of them, I'm no psychotherapist. But I do think that all of these questions "What if (s)he reject me? What if (s)he's (not) gay? What if (s)he isn't the right kind of Christian? What if my emotional baggage is too much to enter a relationship? What if it turns out that I really don't want a long-term relationship with him/her after all?" aren't helpful at that moment. I can promise you that if you're able to leave them aside for a bit and just have fun, you'll become at least 5 times as attractive.

In fact, my answer to all of these questions would be: "So what?" Leave them behind, you can deal with them later.


-LeRoc (Happily married after having been single for a long time. And I think a big part of changing this condition was learning to have fun with it.)

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
If it is causing you this level of distress and disturbance, I would seriously suggest considering some form of therapy.

[Eek!] [Eek!] What? [Eek!] [Eek!] But what's being described is entirely normal. Cool, calm, and collected, by some people's standards.

quote:
Originally posted by infinite_monkey:
Does anyone go into relationships without anxieties, though?

No, Unless maybe such things as complete sociopaths do in fact exist. I suppose they might.


quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Now, if he isn't gay and if he has more than two braincells (you wouldn't be interested in him anyway if he hasn't), he'll answer your question, and then he'll give the same question back to you ("And what about you, Sola gratia?"). Answer this question seriously, without giving too obvious hints.

Now, after you've given your answer, you stay silent. You look half-down with a slightly embarrased smile, like you want to say something to him, but you really don't dare.

The important thing is, not to break this silence, even if it becomes awkward. In fact, you want it to become a bit awkward. Do what you have to (count inwardly if needed) but don't break the silence. He must be the one who breaks the silence.

If he doesn't get the hint after that, he really isn't worth your while [Biased]

You've probably just ruled out at least three-quarters of the men in the world!

Also it sounds like something out of a pre-Victorian novel.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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ButchCassidy
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Agree with LeRoc. But I do think these things are learnt by experience and believing in the lessons of that experience. In my teens was quite shy around girls, and no amount of 'just be relaxed about it' or 'don't be anxious, there's always more fish in the sea if this doesn't work out' or 'don't be too picky at the beginning since you might bond later' would have persuaded me, even though these are infact all very true. So my first relationships were quite awkwardly began (I remember drunkenly getting down on one knee to ask a girl out, classy) and very anxious and serious. After a while of letting yourself fail, and still being alive afterwards, you start to actually believe in the slogans.

Re Sola Gratia's situation, LeRoc is describing how I personally would ferret out whether someone is gay (or, more usually, in a relationship) if the tone is not appropriate for a cheekily direct question (which often gets you brownie points if a guy). The exact words can vary. Personally, I tend to go more casually by getting the concept of relationships into the conversation, e.g. you could say 'oh that sounds like my ex', then work it round to a discussion of relationship history. Normally their tone will clearly imply their orientation/status. If you're bringing up those subjects, and making clear that you're single (and by implication, interested, since you wouldn't bring relationships up otherwise), they have the room to bring up their current relationships/ change the subject if they're not interested. If they're happy to discuss relationships, and smiling etc throughout, you've both got a green light (and effectively prompt him to make a move if he's shy).

Just my initial thoughts, though, and it is difficult to put into mechanistic terms what is meant to be a fun organic process, even though for many of us it isnt.

[ 26. November 2012, 17:43: Message edited by: ButchCassidy ]

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