Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
The important thing is, not to break this silence, even if it becomes awkward. In fact, you want it to become a bit awkward. Do what you have to (count inwardly if needed) but don't break the silence. He must be the one who breaks the silence.

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But doesn't that leave the poor bloke stuck to know what to say? I am not sure how helpful it would be to make things more awkward, especially as the guy is unassertive. If I want to know where I stand with someone I tend to ask.

Nen - too outspoken for her own good.

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They told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn.

Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Nenya:

quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
The important thing is, not to break this silence, even if it becomes awkward. In fact, you want it to become a bit awkward. Do what you have to (count inwardly if needed) but don't break the silence. He must be the one who breaks the silence.

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But doesn't that leave the poor bloke stuck to know what to say? I am not sure how helpful it would be to make things more awkward, especially as the guy is unassertive. If I want to know where I stand with someone I tend to ask.

Nen - too outspoken for her own good.

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by ken:

quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
I mean, giving small hints, teasing eachother, circling around eachother like boxers... isn't this part of the fun?

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No. Its horrible and scary and unsettling and stressful and puts you under a lot of pressure!

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Posted                      

quote:

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ken: Also it sounds like something out of a pre-Victorian novel.

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In this case, she would also demurely suggest that she already had her bridal chest ready, while at the same time keeping an eye out to see whether their chapperone was returning already

quote:

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Nenya: But doesn't that leave the poor bloke stuck to know what to say? I am not sure how helpful it would be to make things more awkward

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quote:

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ButchCassidy: (I remember drunkenly getting down on one knee to ask a girl out, classy)

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Let me guess what her reaction was

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
But don't you think "Can I ask you something? I'm hopeless at reading signals and I'm just a bit unsure of expectations in our relationship. I really like you and our times together but I don't know if you're wanting anything more than companionship?" is awkward too?

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I guess it depends on the kind of person you are. I'd rather have a straight question to answer than a silence I don't know how to fill but maybe that's just me.

Sola gratia, are you still in touch with the acquaintance/best friend? Couldn't you ask her if he's gay?

Nen - running out of ideas.

[ 27. November 2012, 16:46: Message edited by: Nenya ]

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They told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn.

Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Despite being a socially unsuccessful gay man I am fond of the advice of Miss Manners on this subject.

The problem is that human nature is such that there is nothing so unattractive as someone pursuing you with passion. So how do people meet?

The solution is flirting. One party makes a pleasant but ambiguous action. If the other person is interested, they do not leap into unattractive pursuit, but respond with their own ambiguous gesture, which narrows the field. This continues until you are close enough that asking to go out is not a huge leap of passion.
"Properly done, no-one is exactly sure what is happening..."

The two of you may be doing this already.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
I'm sorry, but when I'm reading some of the posts on this thread, sometimes it makes me want to shout: don't over-think it too much.

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quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
Do you mind if I try an alternative take on this?

If I were Sola gratia, what I'd do is something like this. I'd try to get into a relaxed conversation with my friend and then some contrived and convoluted way of bringing a conversation to a specific point, involving fake embarrassed smiles and well-timed periods of silence designed to manoeuvre the guy down some path or other.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
I would have thought this, if anything, is overthinking the situation.

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quote:

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... do the potential benefits of a positive response outweigh the potential drawbacks of a negative one?

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That depends on your Bayesian priors

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by ken:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
... do the potential benefits of a positive response outweigh the potential drawbacks of a negative one?

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That depends on your Bayesian priors

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Posted                      

quote:

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Jonah the Whale: I would have thought this, if anything, is overthinking the situation.

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Don't worry, I was very much playing by ear when I wrote this

Of course, the direct approach might work sometimes. Undoubtedly some Shipmates have used the direct approach and have been married for forty years now. The best of luck to them.

But I have tried the direct approach when I was younger, and in my experience it inevitably lead to the "I really like you, but I see you more as a friend" speech. Over and over again. And I doubt very much that I'm the only one who's been at the receiving end of this.

I really do think that the direct approach (waiting for the 'right' moment, and then asking her[*] out directly, or asking her to clarify her feelings about you, or making some kind of love declaration to her...) has some very obvious disadvantages.

I don't know, I guess it's because it creates a tension that suddenly gets very high. And it's not a playful tension, it's something quite serious. In fact, it creates a tense, serious moment with high emotional stakes. Often, it can feel like an 'all or nothing' situation, and the 'R-word' is always very prominent in the middle of it. (Rejection. Duh.)

Also, it actually puts a lot of pressure on the other person: you practically force her to show her hand, even if it's quite possible that she hasn't made her mind up about it yet. I'm not even sure if this is any less 'manipulative'?

So, that's why I prefer the dance. I hate putting things like this in schedules, but it would be something like this:

1. Move the conversation to something more 'suggestive'.
2. Build up a playful tension between you and the other person.
3. Go with the flow, and have fun with it.

There will always be tension in situations like this, but in this case the tension is gradual, fun and much more natural. You gave both of you a chance to back off gracefully if needs be, and I think this can greatly reduce the anxiety on both sides. And most importantly: even if it doesn't work out, you learned something, and you had fun.

In my (admittedly clumsily formulated) example, I used silence as a way of building up playful tension. As in a dance: "I've been taking the lead for a while, now I'm going to hang back a bit and see what you do. Then we'll build on that." This can work if you do it right. But there definitely are other ways, it very much depends on the person.

If I would describe two people doing a tango on a medium like this one, it would probably feel contrived and fake. "Nobody would ever move like that in real life!" But ultimately, tango isn't about the moves. It's about two dancers creating a tension between them.


[*]I've given up on writing 'him/her' all the time. I'm going to write from the point of view of a man who's interested in a woman. Feel free to change the gender of either person as you please. Also, 'you' means a general you. End of disclaimer

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
Often, it can feel like an 'all or nothing' situation, and the 'R-word' is always very prominent in the middle of it. (Rejection. Duh.)

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by ken:
No, the true R-word is "Respect". If she says "I really respect you", or even worse "I'll always respect you" you know you are on to a loser.

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Noooo. The Bible says a wife must respect her husband. It's a clear sign from God that you should get married.

Nen - matchmaker extraordinaire.

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They told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn.

Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Nenya:

quote:

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Originally posted by ken:
No, the true R-word is "Respect". If she says "I really respect you", or even worse "I'll always respect you" you know you are on to a loser.

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Noooo. The Bible says a wife must respect her husband. It's a clear sign from God that you should get married.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by ken:
(Are there secret training schools where women are taught to say these things?).

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Posted                      

quote:

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ken: I can't even remember the names of some women who said "Sorry, I just don't fancy you". But those other lines can still rankle after decades.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I really would value a physically affectionate male friend without the need to be in a romantic relationship with him, but all the guys at CU are either in relationships or at the tentative start of one, and male-female hugs outside of romantic relationships are Not Done at my CU. I know this might sound oddly specific but I really miss male affection more than anything else. I miss my affectionate male friends

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by ken:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I really would value a physically affectionate male friend without the need to be in a romantic relationship with him, but all the guys at CU are either in relationships or at the tentative start of one, and male-female hugs outside of romantic relationships are Not Done at my CU. I know this might sound oddly specific but I really miss male affection more than anything else. I miss my affectionate male friends

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Unless they're gay, or they *really* doesn't fancy you, they are going to feel sexual about it. Unavoidable. Automatic. So if the men are taking the not lusting part seriously, they are going to be wary about physically affectionate relationships with young women.

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Well I've had friendships like that in the past with men who (presumably) really don't fancy me. I clearly need more gay male friends But in all seriousness, I would presume that the ones in relationships don't fancy me otherwise they wouldn't be in a relationship with other people.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

Posted                      

quote:

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But in all seriousness, I would presume that the ones in relationships don't fancy me otherwise they wouldn't be in a relationship with other people.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
But in all seriousness, I would presume that the ones in relationships don't fancy me otherwise they wouldn't be in a relationship with other people.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by ken:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
But in all seriousness, I would presume that the ones in relationships don't fancy me otherwise they wouldn't be in a relationship with other people.

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No. Really no. I reckon most men are probably sexually attracted to about half of the women they meet. Or youngish men anyway, it falls off a bit with age - though not that much. Its automatic, hard to control, and potentially very embarrassing.

And what Gracious Rebel said.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:

quote:

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Originally posted by ken:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
But in all seriousness, I would presume that the ones in relationships don't fancy me otherwise they wouldn't be in a relationship with other people.

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No. Really no. I reckon most men are probably sexually attracted to about half of the women they meet. Or youngish men anyway, it falls off a bit with age - though not that much. Its automatic, hard to control, and potentially very embarrassing.

And what Gracious Rebel said.

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Now I just want to know how to become unattractive to them :/

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Now I just want to know how to become unattractive to them :/

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Wait till you get to my age, my dear. You'll be grateful for the merest hint that anyone finds you vaguely attractive.

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They told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn.

Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Lucia:
... I would imagine that it's more of an automatic response that is not held onto but passes through the mind. A bit like my reaction to seeing this , I'm not going to grab it and gobble it all up but I can't help thinking 'Mmmmmm!"

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Lucia:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:

quote:

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Originally posted by ken:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
But in all seriousness, I would presume that the ones in relationships don't fancy me otherwise they wouldn't be in a relationship with other people.

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No. Really no. I reckon most men are probably sexually attracted to about half of the women they meet. Or youngish men anyway, it falls off a bit with age - though not that much. Its automatic, hard to control, and potentially very embarrassing.

And what Gracious Rebel said.

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Now I just want to know how to become unattractive to them :/

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Why? What is it about that thought that makes you uncomfortable?

Finding someone sexually attractive doesn't equal lusting and leering over them. I'm not male (so maybe our male members can tell me if I'm guessing right here!) but I would imagine that it's more of an automatic response that is not held onto but passes through the mind. A bit like my reaction to seeing this , I'm not going to grab it and gobble it all up but I can't help thinking 'Mmmmmm!" It's more or less an automatic reaction! It makes me think of something I like. I'm not sure what is so bad about that as long as that is not the sum total of how someone sees another person. We are sexual beings, it is a normal part of being human even though it's expression varies hugely from person to person.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Penny S:
What worked with men around longer who I didn't feel happy with was the intellectual put down. No matter what their favourite subject, there was always one little nugget of information I had that they didn't. Doesn't matter how much they like ogling the body parts if you do that, they go off in a huff. Sad really.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Scots lass:
Jade, do you ask permission of someone before you find them attractive? I know it can be a bit awkward when someone you're not interested in fancies you, but I don't think it's really a loss of control of your body. After all, it doesn't go anywhere if you're not interested as well! I'd go with feeling flattered, but not being encouraging.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by infinite_monkey:
I dunno--I kind of think that what people find attractive in the initial stages is indicative of what they'd like longer-term. So, if a person initially finds me less attractive because of my intelligence and desire to be part of a dialogue, not a rapt audience for a monologue, I'd say that means we'd be doomed long-term anyway. I know a good many men who genuinely find smart, graciously opinionated women very attractive indeed. Is that the default option? Probably not. But they're out there, and ultimately, if you yourself are a smart, graciously opinionated woman, that's your target market anyway.

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I'm inclined to agree - I don't see any point in changing how I come across for the purposes of attracting someone, because if they don't like the real me at the start, then when will they? Interestingly, the only times in recent years that someone has displayed an interest in me in the real world (rather than from internet dating) have been in contexts where my work life has hardly got a mention in the initial 'getting to know you' stages. In one case, the guy subsequently discovered just how nerdy I am and was fine with it. In the other case, I think I've been asked out by the guy, but I have a feeling he might run scared once he gets to know me more. Oh well.

Now about these "men who genuinely find smart, graciously opinionated women very attractive indeed" - where can I find them? Or are they all married off by now?

Hazey

PS. Thank you for the phrase 'graciously opinionated'. I'd like to think that's what I am. I don't pick fights or debate just for the sake of it, honest!

[ 06. December 2012, 22:46: Message edited by: Hazey*Jane ]

Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by RuthW:
You really think it works like that? If someone forbade you to have a particular type of feeling about them, you would simply stop having it?

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I just don't *get* reactions like that I'm afraid, not to anything really. I just feel very uncomfortable with someone who I'm not attracted to finding me attractive, it makes me feel like I have less control over my body and who gets to feel things about it. I want to be able to give permission first.

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Posted                          

quote:

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I just don't *get* reactions like that I'm afraid, not to anything really. I just feel very uncomfortable with someone who I'm not attracted to finding me attractive, it makes me feel like I have less control over my body and who gets to feel things about it. I want to be able to give permission first.

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It's possible that the word "attractive" is suffering from a shades of meaning issue here. In the majority of cases it's a very mild thing, not a "Phwoar" thing. And equally (from personal and anecdotal experience) it's not a purely physical thing. In fact, it's almost the opposite in friendship circles - people who wouldn't immediately tick the shallow physical boxes become increasingly attractive over time as you get to know them better.

I find my friends attractive; to some extent, it's why they're my friends, IYSWIM. It's a long way from there to harbouring impure thoughts about them

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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)

Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by Hazey*Jane:
Now about these "men who genuinely find smart, graciously opinionated women very attractive indeed" - where can I find them? Or are they all married off by now?

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Ariston:
I sometimes wonder if all the right people are hiding from one another, writing novels, making art, going to concerts, taking long bike rides, working late at the office, and otherwise making a worthwhile life, then going home and sighing because another night has arrived without anyone to share it with.

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