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Source: (consider it) Thread: chasing the Black Dog - a depression support thread
Piglet
Islander
# 11803

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[Votive] for all on this thread, especially NEQ, Amos and EM.

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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music

Posts: 19781 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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I'm going to put this here, but I'm bi-polar more than straight depression. Having been diagnosed and treated since 2001, and mainly suffering low mood swings, I'm pretty good at catching myself before I fall off a cliff. My big signal is negative self-talk. I can usually get perspective pretty soon after I kick off, and I'm able to control it from there.

For me, depression lifting is a magical thing. I was living with my sister the first time it happened, on the back step with a fag and a cup of tea. It dawned on my that for the first time since I had been there, I found her back yard a beautiful place. Oh! What a joy it can be to have perspective back, when it has been absent for such a long time.

The up-swings are harder for me to pick, probably because they seem to be rarer for me. At the moment I'm working on a theory that disordered thoughts are an early sign, and I see them first on the internet.

The Road is long with many a winding turn...

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Human

Posts: 1289 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014  |  IP: Logged
Amos

Shipmate
# 44

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[Votive] [Votive] [Votive]
Reading and praying. Solidarity.

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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

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Amen. Time for a Group Hug, perhaps?

((All Black Dog Owners))

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 9470 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

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[Votive] [Votive] [Votive]


As with simontoad, bipolar is my beast. Though after some medication adjustments, chats with a great doctor and a superb manager (who is leaving tomorrow, sadly), the slightest bit of sun is peeking through the clouds.

Posts: 7580 | From: Albury, Australia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

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For which, God be praised.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 9470 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

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I had my first session of EMDR, which was interesting.

The psychologist has concluded that I'm very good at explaining and rationalising, but that that I lack the vocabulary to explain and understand my emotions. She has advised me to stop myself several times a day and name my emotion. I'm finding this very difficult. Do other people have constant emotions? Mostly, I feel interested, or curious, or confused, or pleased, but those aren't emotions.

It's not that I don't have the full range of emotions, I do, but most of the time, I don't feel any particular emotion. I'm thinking, rather than feeling.

Isn't that what most people do?

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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858

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I do know that 99% of the time, my answer to the question "How do you feel about that?" will be "I don't know." I think that it would take a conscious effort for me to name my emotions throughout a day. But maybe it would be revealing?

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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.

Posts: 2887 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

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If I tried to constantly examine my emotions during the day, I'd probably fall off the kerb, or walk slap-bang into the Bus Stop (or even the Bus).

What Erroneous Monk said.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 9470 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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I'm that way too, if you ask me how I feel about something. If you ask me how I feel, I think I'm OK at identifying where my mood is at.

The handy google search definition of emotion is:

(a) a strong feeling deriving from one's circumstances, mood or relationships with others;
(b) instinctive or intuitive feeling as distinguished from reasoning or knowledge.

I've just listed a few of the emotions I remember experiencing. There's quite allot, but I deleted them as they are probably over-sharing. Bottom line, I think I'm OK with identifying my emotions as they happen.

The tough bit for me is identifying why I felt a certain way at a certain moment.

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Human

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Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

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I think this is backwards.

How do we learn what is pain? My guess is because someone asks us "Are you in pain?" when we behave in certain ways such as crying, giving a yelp etc We come to associate what we feel when we are asked that question with pain. If I had to divide things up pain would have a lot more categories than it does. There is a difference between the pain like a tearing sheet of taut fine paper due to stiff muscles, the pulsing pain of muscles post exercise, the sharp pain of a sprain that is moved wrongly, and the humming pain of a tension headache. All these are described as pain, why?

The lack of words is therefore not due to not experiencing the feeling but due to not being asked about that feeling where we are given the word for it.

Rather you need someone to say "are you feeling X?"

Jengie

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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Back to my blog

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
I had my first session of EMDR, which was interesting.

The psychologist has concluded that I'm very good at explaining and rationalising, but that that I lack the vocabulary to explain and understand my emotions. She has advised me to stop myself several times a day and name my emotion. I'm finding this very difficult. Do other people have constant emotions? Mostly, I feel interested, or curious, or confused, or pleased, but those aren't emotions.

It's not that I don't have the full range of emotions, I do, but most of the time, I don't feel any particular emotion. I'm thinking, rather than feeling.

Isn't that what most people do?

I'd take this evaluation with a grain of salt (or more). In my experience most people around me operate on the basis of emotion much more than I do--I tend to think rather than feel too--but I don't think I'm worse off for that. In fact, being a thinker rather than an emoter is very useful in crisis, as well as in messy relationship situations where there's a lot of angst in the air (and possibly individuals deliberately stirring up emotional mud so as to confuse everybody).

I have a close friend who is exactly the same. We both catch shit for not being emoters (mainly IMHO because women are expected to emote and not to discuss matters logically, which pisses off certain men, particularly those who would prefer not to have the daylight shine in on the situation under discussion at that moment).

If one is actually having emotions at the moment, it helps to be able to recognize and name them; but most of the time (like now) my main emotion (if you can call it one) is a cool "let's get this job done now" mixed with interest (hopefully) and perhaps a distant background of anxiety (as a corner of my mind cogitates on what I've got to get accomplished next). This is probably not what your shrink would call naming emotions. But it is what I'm experiencing.

(Going to add that rationalization, explaining, etc. is actually a darn good defense mechanism--it can get you through the worst horrific emotional situations, such as family breakups, without a complete toxic emotional spill all over the place. The emotions can be released later in a safer place where they won't hurt people (like kids). I hope she is focusing on that rather than on trying to turn you into an immediate emoter. IMHO some people in the human race are just built this way, to think now and emote later--and that's because God in his infinite mercy knows that somebody has to be capable of tying the tourniquet and wiping up the blood (metaphorical or otherwise)). It would have really sucked if I hadn't been that controlled person when my father died. Nobody else was able to get their shit together long enough to cope with the body, its disposition, finances, etc.)

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 19998 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433

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Amen to all the others stating caution about emotional readings ... with the rider of course that if something does work as a therapy seize it. But if not, caution rules.

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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

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ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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Well, all I can say is that nothing about my depression changed until I stopped trying to think my way out of feeling.

Emotions are emotional, and the brain is the plaything of the heart. Both are the plaything of the amygdala, where our deepest, darkest fears and needs live.

That's my experience, and accepting it is the only way I have made any progress in reducing my exposure to depression.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

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North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

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I was rather startled to be told I "lacked vocabulary" but I think she was spot on. She asked me a number of questions which were supposed to get me talking about my feelings, but I simply failed to realise that was what she was angling towards.

Apart from my husband and children, no-one in my family knows I have any mental health issues. Of the eleven adults who comprise my immediate family, three have serious mental health illnesses. Today, somebody described me as the most stable person in our family. Obviously they have no idea that this "stable" person has been desparately maintaining a facade for almost two decades and is currently undergoing outpatient treatment!

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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I'm sorry.

It certainly won't hurt to develop an extra vocabulary. I think I was just concerned you might be under-valuing your current approach to life. It has, after all, apparently kept you stable to this point. Hopefully adding a second skill set (awk, business jargon!) will only add to the strengths you already possess and be a comfort and help to you.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 19998 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
MaryLouise
Shipmate
# 18697

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What helped me when I was going through a time of great distress in my 30s was working with a therapist who asked me to show a little more patience and curiosity towards myself during this time. I was only interested in coping (surviving) and keeping my head above water. I felt completely numb and deadened to anything around me.

She asked me to ‘notice’ how shallow my breathing was at times, the way I would clench my jaw whenever I had to think about anything painful, where tension manifested each time I felt the stress (my shoulders, a knot in my stomach). I realised my body, like my emotions, was frozen and in a kind of psychic lockdown, I often didn’t know if I was hungry or thirsty or if I had any aches or pains, I just kept going, dragging myself around all day like some automaton. It took weeks if not months before I could get close enough to myself to ‘read’ my body. And then the feelings began to come back and I could pay attention to them because I no longer feared being engulfed or overwhelmed by them.

We worked very slowly and what I noticed was incremental, small details about my posture and what that told me about defensiveness and tiredness, how hard it was to cry because I was afraid I would never stop crying, hating to speak out loud in case my throat closed up or I found myself howling or choking, my fear of overwhelming those around me because I felt so lost and overwhelmed by grief. Finding my way back to emotional awareness came through this kind of delicate bodywork and I will always be grateful to this particular therapist for her help.

*Subjective experience of course, not something recommended in general or that would work for everyone*

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“As regards plots I find real life no help at all. Real life seems to have no plots.”

-- Ivy Compton-Burnett

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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707

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quote:

posted by North East Quine

most of the time, I don't feel any particular emotion... Isn't that what most people do?

I don't know about most people but I am the same, and I have never suffered from depression ( reading this topic because of a couple of people I know rather than because of myself ). I think one needs a vocabulary to describe the emotions when one does have them, but not to describe something that isn't there.

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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai

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North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

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Most of the time I am absolutely fine, but life has been a bit like a game of snakes and ladders with no ladders for years. Everything's going nicely, then I hit a snake, and it's straight down.

When I "land on the snake" I get a weird disassociated feeling. I just don't function. It's usually short lived enough for me to stay at home and tell people I've got a sore throat, or something.

It doesn't happen often, but my life comes to a grinding halt when it does happen. When I come out of it, I usually find bruises where I've walked into things. Last time I twisted my ankle badly, by tripping over a pavement.

I think the idea is that I should be able to cry and feel sad, rather than blanking out.

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Piglet
Islander
# 11803

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I've never suffered from proper clinical depression, but when we hit a "snake" (for instance last year when D. unfairly lost his job and the sale of our house fell through), I can feel very "down". It rarely manifests itself in tears - I don't cry at all easily - but I sometimes wonder if it would be a relief if it did.

Still keeping you in my prayers. [Votive]

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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music

Posts: 19781 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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I found that my shoulders were a pretty accurate barometer of my feelings. The higher I was holding them, the more anxious and upset I was, whether I noticed the fact internally or not.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858

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I think I'm only taking on now how profound the connection is between my mental and physical well-being. My persistent shoulder pain has been agonising while my mood has been low, but is improving a bit now. However I think I'm getting a cold. Which is a minor whinge, I know, but still....

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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.

Posts: 2887 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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When you feel low you are apt to tense your muscles, which may lead to pain.

Moo

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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.

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Nenya
Shipmate
# 16427

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quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
quote:

posted by North East Quine

most of the time, I don't feel any particular emotion... Isn't that what most people do?

I don't know about most people but I am the same, and I have never suffered from depression
I feel emotion pretty much all the time but have not been good at recognising what it is. It's so far taken me nearly two years of counselling and some intensive work on myself to recognise how angry I am, and have been, about a lot of things. Also to recognise that anger is not "bad." For me at least it is energising. Like clean-burning fuel.

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They told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn.

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Huia
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# 3473

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Nenya, I think you're right about anger being seen as bad. My theory is that it's seen this way because of how it is often expressed ( through loud arguments, violence etc). I don't think that there is a common understanding (at least in my experience) of the difference between the feeling and the behaviour that is commonly linked with it.

Huia

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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

Posts: 10173 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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A good day for me, as my Dr has taken me completely off my anti-psychotic medication after about 8 years. The reason is to manage a tremor I have developed, but he must still reckon I can live without it, so for me its a [Yipee]

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Human

Posts: 1289 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

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Yay indeed! Hopefully, your Doctor will be monitoring you closely, though, yes?

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 9470 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858

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((simontoad)) Keep feeling good!

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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.

Posts: 2887 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

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Great news simontoad!
[Votive]

[ 08. August 2017, 12:34: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]

Posts: 7580 | From: Albury, Australia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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Thanks everyone. I'm back to the Doc in three weeks to see if the tremor has stopped, and so he can keep tabs on me too [Smile]

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Human

Posts: 1289 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014  |  IP: Logged
Amos

Shipmate
# 44

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I had a first meeting with a psychotherapist a couple of days ago. It was a good meeting, I think.

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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

Posts: 7655 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

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Well, let's hope so. Are more meetings scheduled?

[Votive]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 9470 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

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[Votive] Amos.

I had a helpful session today. Needed it.

Posts: 7580 | From: Albury, Australia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jemima the 9th
Shipmate
# 15106

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My love and prayers to all those posting here.

I've been reading for a while without quite managing to post. Things are not brilliant. I've probably been not well for decades, on and off. It comes and goes, and at the moment it is here. Whatever it is. There's a huge mental health history in my family. The eldest kid has been suffering with anxiety, panic & self harm, but after much counselling, seems to be really well. But I think I'm just knackered - I've been keeping going for so long and I'm just done in.

I rarely have panic attacks (a couple a year), but am almost constantly anxious. I don't look forward to anything. There are things that help - exercise, sleep, I've started meditation, but it's still not good (and sometimes is very bad).

Today I got a letter from the bank with a new PIN. I cocked up opening it and was instantly a wailing, sobbing, throwing things mad lady. To the extent that a neighbour popped in on a pretext to see if I was ok. So I'm now ashamed to boot. Doubly so, since the kids were all at home. (Eldest was magnificent, joking that "We all know you're crap at bank stuff").

I'm done in, really. Reserve-less.

Posts: 782 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

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[Votive]
But at least you have a neighbour concerned enough about you to do something.

That. Is. Good.

(And sensible Kidz, which is also Good.)

[Votive] anyway...

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 9470 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jemima the 9th
Shipmate
# 15106

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Thank you. Yes, I'm lucky to have those things. And ridiculously proud of my kidz' sensibleness.

But I worry - I don't want them to be burdened with caring for my mental wobbliness, the way I have cared for my Dad's all my life (and his is a complicated picture of diagnosed & I think undiagnosed problems).

Posts: 782 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927

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[Votive] Jemima and thanks for good neighbours and family support.

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Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.

Posts: 9520 | From: girt by sea | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
# 15978

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Hey Jemima - wow, can I see myself in that kind of scenario.

We don't know each other and will never meet, but suppose we were to imagine each other as basically OK in a 'meh' kind of way.

Next time I f*ck up and start to want to kill the world, I'll imagine you did it, and I'm stood next to you; I'll try to come up with some basic sensible suggestions, since it's always easier to be sane around someone else's problems. You might like to try the same.

The bad news for you is, tomorrow I go on an adventurous / utterly ill-advised holiday with kids in far-eastern Europe, with a totally inadequate f*cked old vehicle (the best of the bad lot here available) for which spares and service will be unobtainable. I'm excited and shitting myself. Don't feel bad knowing that when it breaks down I'm going to be thinking it's your problem [Smile]

(Oh - and my girls are great with me, but I don't want to f*ck them up (more) either. We spend a lot of time talking over shit, often in the car when it's just us, when the moment is over. They ask questions and share a bit themselves and it's all frank and OK, but I still know I could mess them up which is a strong incentive towards sanity).

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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)

Posts: 1549 | Registered: Oct 2010  |  IP: Logged
Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

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[Votive] Jemima [Votive]

I got upset and in tears because a garbage bag tore when I pulled it off the roll. The 'smallest' thing, like opening a letter, can just be too much.

Best wishes from Down Under. And thanks for posting.

Posts: 7580 | From: Albury, Australia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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{{{{{all of us}}}}} [Votive]

Dealing with some depression. Meds usually keep most of it in line. But it's kicking up, especially my Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD). It hits a bit earlier each year, and I've already had my "OK, how much can I titrate my meds if I need to?" annual talk with the prescriber. (For me, SAD can go badly quickly, and I wind up in a hole I can't get out of. So my doc and I have worked out, over the years, "ok, this is your base dosage, and this is how much more you can play with, if things get bad".

The last couple of days, I've felt a deep-winter level of SAD, and that's not good. Hopefully, I can work that out.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18178 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doone
Shipmate
# 18470

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Everyone posting here - empathising and praying [Votive]
Posts: 2208 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2015  |  IP: Logged
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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[Votive]

Prayers for all. Sounds like things are closing in a bit for some of us. Good is always there, a chink of light. Sometimes we just can't see it, right at this or that moment. I pray that you might glimpse it out of the corner of your eye, and turn your head towards it.

I'm a speaker. I say what I'm experiencing out load sometimes. I find that can help me identify my aberrant moods, and once they are identified, sometimes they dissipate. If not, at least I have a bit of perspective.

[Votive] especially for the carers.

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Human

Posts: 1289 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014  |  IP: Logged
MaryLouise
Shipmate
# 18697

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What Doone said [Votive]

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“As regards plots I find real life no help at all. Real life seems to have no plots.”

-- Ivy Compton-Burnett

Posts: 524 | From: Cape Town | Registered: Nov 2016  |  IP: Logged
Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
I'm a speaker. I say what I'm experiencing out load sometimes. I find that can help me identify my aberrant moods

Certainly the case for me with the psychologist Friday...as I spoke, I noticed, and realised, and have sine took action. Amazing what I could not see before vocalising it.

Sorry to read of your SAD coming on as the darkness of winter begins to lift here GK. [Votive]

[Votive] s for all.

Posts: 7580 | From: Albury, Australia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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I have found that supplements of Vitamin D3 help enormously with my symptoms of SAD. Light tops this up as required, but the D3 has boosted my energy levels and sunniness of disposition considerably.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

Posts: 2150 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged
Zoey

Broken idealist
# 11152

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Feeling broken and never to be fixed. Phoned into work sick for the first time in over two years. I want everything to go away.

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Pay no mind, I'm doing fine, I'm breathing on my own.

Posts: 3081 | From: the penultimate stop? | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

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((Zoey))

[Votive]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 9470 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jemima the 9th
Shipmate
# 15106

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Much love and [Votive] for Zoey, GK and mark. mark - I hope your trip is going really well, and the van stays together!

Many thanks for all your words of wisdom & kindness to me. I feel better today - in hindsight the failure to cope was just before we went away for a few days - a situation which I always find hard. The break was lovely, I managed well, the kids didn't kill each other. It was ok. Fundamentally OK.

Posts: 782 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

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[Votive] Zoey.

---

And hurrah for lovely breaks, Jemima. I find an escape, when I can manage it, helps me immensely.

Posts: 7580 | From: Albury, Australia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

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For all of us here [Votive]

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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!

Posts: 9961 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged



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